Return to Transcripts main page
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Nation Debates Modern Manhood And Its Attraction To MAGA; The Right Praises Politics In Sports After Denouncing For Years; Trump's Picks Linda McMahon As Next Education Secretary; "Morning Joe" Hosts Meet With Trump At Mar-A Lago; Trump Hunts For The Highest Officials In The United States Government. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 19, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:08]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, MAGA and masculinity, why men are tiring of the toxic label and where they're turning to feel heard.
Plus, a touchdown dance borrowed from Donald Trump, scores points with conservatives who once tried to sideline athletes --
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT-ELECT: Get that son of a bitch off the field.
He's fired.
PHILLIP: -- for not sticking to sports.
Also, idol worship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I pray in particular for President Donald Trump.
PHILLIP: Schools officials make sacrifices on the altar of Trump by trying to weld together church and state.
And with fear and favor, new reporting reveals morning show hosts made their Mar-a-Lago mission trip to maneuver their way off of Donald Trump's enemies list.
Live at the table, Montel Williams, Scott Jennings, Ameshia Cross, Lance Trover and Donte Stallworth.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, manhood. Tonight, the country is holding up a mirror to men, or at least a specific kind of man, and seeing a red reflection. Donald Trump says masculinity has been under attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One thing we need in this country, we need a father figure again, we need husbands and boyfriends and young men need to -- we need to see that fathers are capable of great things, because we've dealt with it, especially in the last 3.5 years, a complete dismemberment of what it is to be a man. We're under attack for everything.
TRUMP: We are. Well, actually, manhood is under attack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's true that Trump tailored a lot of his appeal to men and offered them a home in the MAGA multiverse. It worked, but the question is why, and that's a question that we've been asking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You guys both voted for Trump?
NICK, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Of course.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes?
NICK: Of course, man.
I've been working at the same restaurant for four years. I've been a waiter, I've been a busser, I've been a bar back. You know, I just don't -- all the taxes that -- can I -- no (INAUDIBLE)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Curse as much as you want.
NICK: They (BLEEP) you up, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Trump's good at interacting. I know. He doesn't need a script.
EDWARD, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Our kids are important, guys, you know? If we're not teaching them well, if we're not teaching them about credit, if we're not teaching them about how to get a home eventually, and all we're talking about is racism and, you know, trans and gays, which like I said, I'm all good, like you do what you do. Just don't force it on people. And that's where we're about, like as long as you're not forcing it, we're good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Montel Williams, the men are not all right.
MONTEL WILLIAMS, TALK SHOW HOST AND ACTIVIST: I think men are better than they think they are. However, messaging has just gotten out of control from both sides. You take a look at the fact that across the board, it didn't matter what race they are, males turn towards Donald Trump, turned away from the Democratic Party. And why? That's the real question that should be asked. Why? Because in so many ways, the party basically dismissed them, left them out of the conversation, and not until the very end decided, oh, I better reach out and see if these guys are worth talking to.
And if you just look at the fact that we have -- nobody I think in this country right now, the majority of people, believe in equal playing field where everybody gets to participate in playing. But when you start shoving certain things down people's throats that they don't want to have to eat, you're going to have to deal with the consequences of forcing somebody to do something that they didn't want to do.
PHILLIP: Well, there's the messaging toward men that Trump was doing and then there was the messaging toward women that the Harris-Biden campaign were doing. I mean, I remember sitting at the Democratic Convention and looking after three or four days and saying, not a whole lot of men on this program. And that's intentional because they thought this was going to be an abortion election, but was that a misstep?
AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think that abortion being the top issue was obviously a misstep because we saw that it didn't actually bring out the women that they expected either, but I would argue that from the onset, the polling showed that there were stark divisions between what men valued and what women valued, which isn't actually surprising across this country, but the economy was something that everybody valued. The way it was messaged, I think, was problematic.
But in addition to that looking at the psychological aspect of things, men have felt left out for quite some time. Be it whether it was social groups, be it whether it was you know, leading to depressive states or other things. They've been very vocal about that. That existed long before the pandemic.
I do think that there needed to be stronger outreach to men and men of all backgrounds.
[22:05:01]
But in addition to that, there needs to be more men at the helm of the decision-making process on the campaign. A campaign that is run by a lot of women is probably not going to be the same campaign that can speak to men. I'm glad that we have this circle here because it matters.
PHILLIP: To be fair, Trump and Harris' campaign were run by a mixture of men and women. I'm not sure. I think it's just about a theory of the case.
CROSS: But, no, a lot of the messaging strategies that were developed to men were developed to men by white women. And I think that that is a problem.
PHILLIP: Interesting. DONTE STALLWORTH, FORMER NFL WIDE RECEIVER: Yes, I think that you know, with the appeal with Trump, I think many of his supporters are to that brash, unapologetic, that tough guy kind of persona that Trump has always kind of had. And I always think back to, you know, the mid- 90s and late 90s when I was in college and high school, where you saw a ton of rappers that were named dropping Donald Trump in all these songs. And there's a reason for that. There's a reason for that because all of them looked at Donald Trump as this unapologetic, brash guy that really pushed his success, his power plays, the art of the deal, all this stuff kind of made it what men look at as, okay, this is what I want, and men of all backgrounds.
And I think that, you know, you fast forward to what happened in this election and the dynamics of the populace of people that voted for Trump, men, women. Hispanic, white women, men, in general, black men, it really showed that this election kind of teetered towards that, the catering towards men.
And so it's just a thing where, you know, you look at it and Trump has made a name off himself from doing this. And I think that was a big part of why he won the election.
PHILLIP: You know, Scott, I'll let you jump in a second, but I think you might find this interesting. You know, Scott Galloway, who has a podcast, many podcasts, but he's working on a book about what's going on with men in the country. He writes this, young American men are in a crisis of underemployment, under socialization. Soaring college costs affect people regardless of their gender, but manufacturing jobs wants to take it to the middle class for men without college degrees have been off-shored. Housing is increasingly unaffordable. Men are stuck, they are isolated, despairing, and unproductive, prone to obesity, drug addiction, and suicide, susceptible to misogyny, conspiracy theories, and radicalization. They make inadequate mates, employees and citizens. It's a pretty dire picture that he paints there. And it seems what he's saying is that Trump spoke to that.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I agree. First of all, I agree with most of everything that's been said here already and I agree with some of this assessment. I do think we have a crisis of especially young men in this country. And they're, you know, in many ways, disconnected from the rest of society, disconnected from their families, disconnected from their communities, disconnected from our political culture, disconnected from our civil culture. And that's a real problem for a society that depends on all of us to be engaged and working together to make it as good of a country and as good of a society as it can be.
I think the Democrats in this election made men feel like that the patriarchy is over, boys, and we're going to put you in the back seat for a while, and you're just going to have to accept it, without any thought to the ramifications of telling people who are out honestly trying to make a living, provide for their families, be good husbands, be good fathers. When you tell people who are doing their level best that either, A, it's not good enough, or, B, you're part of the problem, what do you expect? And then finally, as a political tactic, you know, the attempt to put Walz on the ticket and that was going to somehow solve all of the problems that had been built up for years was ridiculous, because it turns out Walz was the last person that men wanted to hear from.
And I remember at the beginning of that whole campaign, when they put him on, I sat right here and people are like, oh, they got camouflaged hats. They're going to be wearing them in the deer stands this fall. And I think to your point that you just made, that was not -- that idea that was not formulated by a bunch of dudes who actually go deer hunting. It was come up with by a bunch of people who've never met a dude that actually goes deer hunting. But when you try to put that kind of window dressing on a real communications problem or a real relationship problem, it gets exposed immediately.
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I did a fun little experiment. I knew we were going to be talking about this tonight. So, I have a text chain that's been going on with my friends from college and law school for about 15, 16 years. It's all guys. Some are married, some are not. Some have kids, some do not. Some are former Democrats, former. They are all MAGA now.
So, I sent them a text and I said, I'm coming on the show. We're going to discuss this issue of masculinity and MAGA. Can you give me some P.G. thoughts? I'm going on family show here tonight.
[22:10:00]
JENNINGS: You may not be familiar with (INAUDIBLE).
TROVER: Well, we're definitely not going to be reading the text. I will put it through (ph).
I heard a few certain things. MAGA is fun. MAGA is fun. I heard it time and again from each one. Yes. MAGA is fun. One of them said you know, MAGA equals football and beer. The left equals H.R. and tofu. That was one of the nicer ones.
Trump speaks to me, he speaks like a normal person. He's not a robotic politician. We can have a debate over what he says, but he speaks to them as a normal person. But the one thing that came across from all of them was, I'm sick of being told what to do. I'm sick of the media telling me what to do. I'm sick of the woke left telling me what to do. I'm sick of government telling me what to do, especially after COVID. And I thought it was a very telling story about people who are just sick of (INAUDIBLE).
PHILLIP: There is an argument, though, that, and I'll just make the argument since nobody is making it here, it's not my view, but people would say Donald Trump speaks to, you know, the lesser angels of everyone, not the higher angels, the parts of people that are okay with a little bit of misogyny, a little bit of -- you know, he has been found liable for sexual assault. Donald Trump has.
So, I mean, that part of it too, it almost feels like men -- there's a backlash to men being accused of being too misogynistic in the sort of MeToo era and all of that.
JENNINGS: I think one, one part of your question makes me ask, who gets to decide whose angels are right and wrong? I mean, I think one of the issues that you're articulating, and I agree with you, is that men feel like Democrats and, you know, the sort of the society that is built up around this viewpoint is constantly looking over their shoulder, you know, the sort of the professional, oh, fainting society waiting to hear what thing offends them next and is it coming out of your mouth and what am I going to do to you when I hear it come out of your mouth.
And, you know, the way men talk to each other, the way men interact with each other, you know, I think in Trump, they see somebody who is sort of immune from the cancelation society or immune from the group of people who would try to police at all.
PHILLIP: He has survived all of the accusations that grabbed them by their you know what. He survived all of that.
WILLIAMS: He survived it and he's now put forth nominations for people in his cabinet that have survived similar things. I mean, we're living at a time right now where I think there's a backlash because for so long, there is a group, a demographic, a part of America, where comes the men who've said I am tired of being told I'm not good. I'm tired of being told that I'm sexist, I'm racist. I'm not sexist. I know I'm not. I have not done a sexist thing in the last ten years. So, stop telling me I am.
Whether it was just or not, a large group thought that all the fingers were pointing at them, and they wanted to go to somebody who could protect them is Donald Trump.
CROSS: If the shoe doesn't fit, they don't wear it. Yes, there are people who have been cloaked in the anti-MeToo push, and those individuals, many of which had their own issues with women and their own issues with impropriety. But I wouldn't say that that is the overwhelming majority of males that supported Donald Trump. I think there was something else there.
With that being said, because it went across multiple demographics, I do think that, to one of the quotes you showcased earlier, there is a large percentage of males who are trying to figure out where they fit in this economic system. The fact that, you know, we are living in a society and a culture where men are typically -- their value is determined by how much they make. And it is unfortunate, but that is where we are.
And there are a lot of households where they are having a really hard time trying to, you know, make ends meet. They are in a society where, you know, more and more women are graduating, which I think is a great thing in the higher ed level, but there's a reason why more and more men aren't attending. There's a reason why those men who were able to get jobs 15, 20 years ago in a skills-based work that would have allowed them to buy a home cannot find those jobs now. They're looking for somebody to speak to that.
Donald Trump doesn't have the policies that answer those things, but I would argue he articulated them better.
JENNINGS: Isn't some of the issue too cultural? Like, I mean, the Democratic Party's emphasis or de-emphasis on the need for strong family units, strong father, strong men to take care of families. I mean, there has been a rejection of that on the left in this country, and I think there's consequences to that.
PHILLIP: I mean, it also could just be, I mean, to Ameshia's point, just purely economic, where they're saying, okay, what does my future hold? I mean, I don't know. Some of these men may or may not want to get married. Some of these men may or may not want to have kids.
JENNINGS: I think a lot of it's cultural.
PHILLIP: But they want to be able to survive. They want to have value for themselves, and if they have a family, for their family.
TROVER: Yes, and I certainly agree. But, I mean, some people have called this a reckoning election. I think it is kind of a reckoning because of what we were talking about, where people are tired of being told to do or being talked down to. I think cancel culture at this juncture is over. This woke nonsense is over, at least as far as people are concerned in this country right now.
CROSS: I think they've moved on (ph) opportunity culture than anything else.
PHILLIP: All right, to be continued. We've got a lot more ahead. Everyone stick around.
[22:15:00]
Breaking news tonight, Donald Trump casts Dr. Oz for his T.V. White House and names a former wrestling executive to lead the Education Department, which he promised, by the way, to shut down.
Plus, the right criticized politics in sports for many years. But now they are praising things like the Trump dance being done by athletes on the field. We'll discuss that, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: It's all a matter of perspective or jerseys. Sports has never been politics-free and they aren't now. And just as an example, suddenly you're seeing a lot of athletes doing this.
[22:20:00]
It's their version of Donald Trump doing his version of Conan O'Brien's string dance, despite looking like dads without much rhythm at a bar mitzvah Republicans have reveled in this culture war crossover.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The unifier used to be sports until politics infiltrated it. And now perhaps the great unifier is, in fact, President-elect Trump and his policies.
JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: And now everybody feels an infectious courage because there's no more stigma about being MAGA. The stigma has moved from MAGA to anti-MAGA.
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: Now, the cultural left applauded, remember, Colin Kaepernick taking a knee, and lectured America on race. Surely, they can find a way to love the Trump dance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, if you're going, why does that seem so weird, well, it might be because you don't have a short memory and you remember when Republicans used to revile politics on the playing field.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANITA VOGEL, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: You want sports to relax. You don't want politics in sports. You want to keep score of the game, not politics.
We have a separation of church and state. Let's have a separation of sports and politics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're football players and they're paid to do a job. They're not paid to take stands on social issues on the field.
MIKE GUNZELMAN, FOX NEWS REPORTER: Now it's even going to sports, where you are suffering now if you're not fully on board with this liberal-leaning ideology. It's ridiculous. It's sports.
INGRAHAM: Must they run their mouths like that?
It's always unwise to seek political advice from someone who gets paid a hundred million dollars a year to bounce a ball.
Millions elected Trump to be their coach. So, keep the political commentary to yourself, or, as someone once said, shut up and dribble.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You know, the thing about it also, Donte, is that, to be honest, I'm not sure people are losing their minds over players doing the Trump dance on the field. It's fine. But they did lose their minds when NFL players, like Colin Kaepernick, did not take a political stance, but took a social justice stance. There's a distinction between those two things. It is interesting that there's been this big turnaround, it seems.
STALLWORTH: Yes, it is. You know, you look at all the times that any player was kneeling or anything, you know, they all had this kind of conviction within themselves that this is what I believe, this is what I'm going to do. They articulated it very well to the media starting with Colin Kaepernick. And you saw the video where a lot of the media, the conservative media, conservatives, were really pushing against these NFL players to get them to stop talking about politics. But then, you know, you fast forward to today, and people are having a little fun with the Trump dance.
Now, the Trump dance is -- it's kind of -- it's weird, it's new-ish, and it's ridiculous, which also makes it trendy.
PHILLIP: Right, yes. It's like a TikTok dance.
STALLWORTH: Yes, it is, right. And so, you know, I don't think that's going to be something that players are going to be doing into next year. It's just kind of something new that players are doing. And they all at -- you know, when you make a play, you celebrate, you want to do something that's fun and trendy and they're doing the Donald Trump dance because that's the fun and trendy thing right now.
JENNINGS: I don't think it's right to equate this Trump dance, which I agree with you, it's kind of a fun, trendy thing that's going on, with the overt political statements that some players were attempting to make. But then also these whole sort of cultural movements that were built around some of these players to try to force everyone else to participate in it. I see these things as totally different. I don't see these players necessarily participating in politics as much as they are just sort of participating in the current pop culture. I think they're two totally different things. And these players are not out there trying to browbeat their teammates into joining them if they don't want to.
WILLIAMS: But there are players and there are sports representatives that are doing exactly that. Not browbeating people, but look at Logan Paul. Look at the MMA right now. There are people who are standing there wearing MAGA hats and they're making political statements around making sure you support Donald Trump. I'm just saying, let's get this even.
I agree with what Donte said. It was wrong for a black player to do what -- I'm sorry, people do in churches, people do when they ask a person to marry them, take a knee, it's called respect. People don't understand that, but when the black player did it, it was not respectful.
STALLWORTH: Which he learned from a, which he learned from a Green Beret, by the way. A Green Beret suggested that he do that.
PHILLIP: Well, let me just play. I mean, I just -- people, young people have short memories, but here's how Donald Trump responded to Colin Kaepernick taking a knee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners when somebody disrespects our flag, to say get that son of a bitch off the field right now out, he's fired. He's fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:25:00]
PHILLIP: So to be clear, I mean, I really do think we have got to make a distinction. You cannot like what Colin Kaepernick did but he wasn't saying, oh, go vote for Barack Obama. He was talking about a set of issues that are actually outside of politics, and Donald Trump had that reaction to it, and it had actual consequences for him and his career in the NFL.
CROSS: It absolutely did. This was a push for advocacy and policy reforms. And as someone who lives in the black body, and has seen, even in my own family, police brutality and what that looks like, I think that, you know, seeing somebody take the level of stance that he did, having the name, the image, the brand that he did mattered. It mattered to the movement.
This was not a collective, let's all cheer and celebrate moment. This was to elevate the issue that was happening throughout the community. And I think that for him, it was something that he took a stance on because with his name, with his brand, he knew that it was -- it could shape people's lives in the same way that we saw with Muhammad Ali, in the same way that we've seen it with a ton of black people during the civil rights movement, many of which who were also major athletes.
He put his career on the line, he knew that he would be putting his career on the line. But to have a sitting president of the United States make the types of comments that Donald Trump did to not only target Colin Kaepernick, but to also -- you know, it had its own reverberating effects on the community that was also doing that work and had been doing it long before Colin Kaepernick ever took a knee.
PHILLIP: So, now we're talking about not just taking a knee, but potentially, as Montel was saying, MAGA hats at the MMA games, maybe on football fields, that's okay?
WILLIAMS: There's already been one on the football field and that player lost his opportunity, right? They kicked him out of the league?
STALLWORTH: Well, no. Nick Bosa, who's a big Trump guy, he's the one that --
WILLIAMS: He ducked into that commercial, yes.
STALLWORTH: Yes. He interrupted the interview, a post-game interview, and stuck his hat out there days before the election. And he got fined like $12,000 for that.
WILLIAMS: Okay.
TROVER: Americans love a comeback, so do the sports players, so do the guys in the sports field. I mean, I'm with Scott. I'm not sure why, what we're talking about here, the guys are doing a dance. I think it shows the kinmanship that Donald Trump has with some of his folks out there. But I agree, I don't think this is going to be going on forever. And I'm not sure I see the comparison here of what we're talking about.
JENNINGS: I also think there's something to be said for the marketplace here. I mean, who do you think is in an NFL stadium? Who do you think is at the MMA fight? Probably a lot of -- WILLIAMS: Two different demographics.
CROSS: Exactly. One's a little more diverse than the other one, but they have two different demographics.
JENNINGS: Probably a lot of Trump people.
WILLIAMS: After a long time, a lot of females went to that Kansas City game.
PHILLIP: So, I guess what I'm saying is like does it take that much courage? I mean, some of the commentators that we played earlier basically were suggesting that they are so free now of retribution to come forward as a Trump -- but to your point, these are conservative audiences. There's you're not getting a badge of courage for doing that in an MMA stadium.
JENNINGS: I do think Trump's winning unlocked -- so I agree with what Jesse Watters said in the clip actually. I do think it unlocked a certain number of people who probably previously felt like, culturally, they would not be looked upon well if they did express any kind of political preference for Trump. He goes out and wins. And now all of a sudden they do a three-second dance to say, hey, I think this is kind of cool.
CROSS: They never felt like Joe Biden would say the types of things that he said about Colin Kaepernick from the podium. What they might have felt was a certain level of social pressure from people around them but not in that stadium.
JENNINGS: Oh, more than that. Media pressure, social pressure. I mean, look at the sports journalism industry. It is 100 percent gone completely off the left side of the ditch. I mean, what do you think would have happened to any of these players if they had done this during the election? I mean, it would have been an avalanche coming down on them. And the entire sports journalism field has gone so far to the left, it is no longer has any connection to its audience, whatsoever.
PHILLIP: But you just said that these are audiences, the sports themselves have conservative-leaning audiences. So, I mean, that doesn't seem like a huge amount --
JENNINGS: The fans are, but the journalists are different.
PHILLIP: Right. But the fans are paying for the tickets. The fans are funding the games.
CROSS: I don't think sports journalism is any less diverse than, you know, traditional journalism in the sense that a lot of people who are already leaning right are also following the sports journalist either online, via podcast, whatever, who also lean right. So, they're reinforcing their own biases.
JENNINGS: I mean, I don't know what you guys think, but I watch ESPN, just like everybody else. And, I mean, to me, it is not in any way, shape or form reflective of the political leanings that you'd find in any sports stadium in America.
PHILLIP: I mean, there are definitely right-leaning sports commentators. You were going to say something?
TROVER: Yes. No, I mean, look, I just -- I think that people -- well, this goes back to my texting chain of buddies. The one thing they kept reiterating is that, yes, I feel like I can go out there and say, yes, I can put on a MAGA hat. I was in Southern California recently. I was walking around. I saw MAGA hats. I couldn't believe it. I'm like, man, I don't think this would have happened a year ago. I don't even think this would have happened two months ago, much less.
I do think there is a feeling of freedom on that where people felt pressured like they couldn't step forward and say how they truly felt.
PHILLIP: I just think it's incredibly fascinating that now it's lauded to put on a MAGA hat in these contexts when you couldn't even make a broad statement about social justice, not political, mind you, eight years ago when Donald Trump was in the White House.
[22:30:03]
That is the truth.
JENNINGS: People thought it was disrespectful to the United States of America. I mean, that was their reaction.
CROSS: To fight for civil rights and equity? To fight to be able to breathe in this country without having police --
JENNINGS: To save all the rest while the rest of us are saluting our flag and paying homage to our country and to its -- and to our flag.
PHILLIP: He took a knee, Scott. Scott, he took a knee.
CROSS: He didn't like the flag. In fire. He took a knee.
JENNINGS: I'm just telling you.
CROSS: That's not desecrating the flag.
JENNINGS: You don't have to relitigate it with me, but I'm just telling you, that's how people took it when it happened.
WILLIAMS: But people also looked at that whole idea kneeling. I got to tell you, it disgusted me because I got some notes from people that I agree with, we need to respect the flag. I spent my-- put my life on the line to respect this flag.
JENNINGS: You did.
WILLIAMS: But I, when I, when the national anthem plays, I don't put my hand over my heart. I stand at attention. I put my thumbs right by my --shing my pants and I stand at attention. I was at an event last week and I heard somebody behind me. I was receiving an award that was the Selfless Service Award for all the work that I do with veterans. And somebody behind me said, he won't even put his hand over his heart.
PHILLIP: Wow.
WILLIAMS: I heard that and I'm getting the award and I'm like, are you kidding me? You don't understand that I'm showing respect to the flag by standing at attention, which is what I did for 22 years, and the whole idea of kneeling down.
Let's remember, every Sunday, people go to Catholic Church and kneel down in reverence to God. Every man, most guys who ask a woman, will you marry me, they drop to a knee. When did being on a knee all of a sudden represent some sort of disrespect?
STALLWORTH: I think what was lost throughout all of that, too, during that time was that Colin Kaepernick reached out to Nate Boyer, a former Green Beret, and asked him, because Nate Boyer wrote a "USA Today" op-ed saying, hey, I fought for this flag, I want you to respect it.
He flew him out to Miami and asked him, I don't want to be, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to the military, It's not about the military. Tell me what to do. And Nate Boyer told him, take a knee. We take a knee because it's respectful, just all the things you noted. And he said, they take a knee when they're following brothers and sisters.
WILLIAMS: Correct.
STALLWORTH: You know, standing at their grave, kneeling at their grave, that is a sign of respect.
CROSS: So, I'm just wondering where all these flag respectors were on January 6th. Because the right had a whole lot to say about taking a knee.
PHILLIP: It's a fair question.
CROSS: But we saw what happened with the flag on January 6th, and nobody said anything.
PHILLIP: Donte Stallworth, thank you very much. We appreciate you. Thank you, everyone else. Hang on, coming up next, could Lyndon McMahon be the last education secretary in the United States? We'll discuss Trump's pick for the leader of the agency that he has promised to close. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:36:59]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Donald Trump's choice to lead a zombie agency. Linda McMahon is the president-elect's pick to be the next education secretary but he also plans to promptly kill the education department and perhaps with it throw the trillion-dollar student loan program into purgatory. Trump wants to deliver more power to the states and to officials who
want to write God into curricula and plaster it all over public schools. Like this person, Oklahoma's superintendent of public instruction, Ryan Walters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN WALTERS, OKLAHOMA SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: President Trump has a clear mandate. He wants prayer back in school. He wants radical leftism out of the classroom, wants our kids to be patriotic, wants parents back in charge with school choice.
We're enacting upon that agenda here in Oklahoma. Before we had a federal department of education and we had the Bible and prayer in school, guess what? We were leading the free world. The reality is the Bible was what drove so much of -- so many of the consequential events in American history. Our kids have to understand made America great in the first place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: As he was reminded repeatedly in that interview, Oklahoma is 48th out of 50 states in terms of education in this country. But the money that they're spending is on Trump Bibles that cost 60 bucks each.
CROSS: It's laughable. It's laughable because I know that there have been several segments across multiple networks about issues like students not returning to school post pandemic. It's been very hard for them to make that transition.
And we talked about how the reading scores and reading levels have gone down in this country, not just since the pandemic but over the past 15 years, we are not at a rate where we can continue to compete at the level we should be competing.
So, when you have a school districts that are ranking in, lower than the bottom half of American society, we have to do more. We have to invest more in our education. That means our books.
That means what we are teaching kids in the classroom. That means after school and supportive services. It means social-emotional learning because a lot of students are going through depression, anxiety and other issues. It also means that we're focusing on the basics.
As somebody who is a Christian, who grew up in a very Bible-built area with a Baptist mom and grandma, I believe wholeheartedly in the Bible. But I also believe that is different than our public school system. Teach that in the church, teach it at home. These kids need to learn the basics of curriculum.
PHILLIP: Texas is also on the verge of adding Bible lessons to their curriculum, including some lessons that some Jewish parents have found to be offensive including some lessons that even some theologians have found to be misleading, if not outright false. Why is this such a big priority right now for conservatives when to
Ameshia's point, there are a lot of big problems going on in America's education system.
TROVER: I think the Texas one is optional for schools to take on if I read correctly. I don't know about the Trump Bibles and all that stuff. I do think we've entered an era here and we're going further into an era of more local control, more state control.
That's why Trump wants to do away. And I think a lot of this stems from a post-COVID era where our schools were shut down much longer than anybody wanted, certainly the parents wanted.
[22:40:05]
And that's the -- so I think parents are wanting more local control and more say so in their communities. Look, what works here in Manhattan doesn't necessarily work for what somebody in Texas wants.
CROSS: That doesn't speak to these kids being behind in reading, writing and math. And how is the Bible going to solve that?
PHILLIP: And actually, I mean, the school superintendent in Oklahoma, who's in charge of all the schools in the state, he mandated that there was a video of him praying for Donald Trump. He played to students in the schools, in addition to what we just talked about.
WILLIAMS: That's absolutely insane. We have to understand that the idea of separation of church and state really doesn't exist. Those words don't exist in our Constitution. We are governed by what's in the First Amendment, which says that our Congress shall not establish laws that either establish for religion or, basically I'm paraphrasing, or direct you in which religion you're going to be involved with.
That's where the whole idea of your ability to believe anything you want, any religion is yours by choice. So, for them to say that this particular Bible is something, why is it that the state gets to do something that the Congress doesn't get to do? Why is it that at state levels we're going to say that we can let state law -- Trump national law --we don't do it any other way. So, why are we going to let state law Trump national law?
JENNINGS: Well, I think that the conservative position has always been that education is better handled at the state and local level, that state governments, local school districts, parents at their grassroots level are in a better position to identify what curriculum and sort of what needs the local student population has and what the local population would want in a school system.
Conservatives have always resisted the idea of a federal bureaucracy dictating education of any kind to all 50 states everywhere, one size fits all.
WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, Sir, but the Constitution doesn't say that you can't teach math. The Constitution didn't say you can't teach science. JENNINGS: It also -- no.
WILLIAMS: The Constitution said you can't direct religion.
JENNINGS: It also says that anything not in this Constitution should be left up to the states to deal with and there's nothing about the Department of Education in the Constitution.
CROSS: The Department of Education also doesn't say curriculum and they never have.
WILLIAMS: But they're restricting religion.
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean --
CROSS: The federal government does not set curriculum. That is set by the state. That's not different.
PHILLIP: This is actually about conservative priorities.
CROSS: That is a local tradition.
PHILLIP: I think that's what this conversation is about.
CROSS: I think that's what this conversation's about. Not about, necessarily about the federal government. But if Ryan Walters is a conservative, is this -- are these the priorities of the Republican Party to put evangelical Christianity in large part of the schools?
JENNINGS: I think the priorities of the Republican Party, as I understand it and as I believe it as a Republican are for A, the schools to be open, B, the schools to focus on the core issues of reading, writing, arithmetic and science and you know, the things that you need to compete in this world.
CROSS: And why are we --Trump Bibles?
JENNINGS: But there is not necessarily, that doesn't make it mutually exclusive to some conversation about, you know, the basic tenets of Western civilization that we've sort of built our society around.
CROSS: These are public schools. Let's still be mindful these are public schools. And I agree with you. Reading, writing, arithmetic, those are the basics. The consternation here is why is the Trump Bible also added to that?
These are schools and districts that are already running on slim budgets. They lost a lot of the AARP dollars, the money that the AARP dollars, the money that came post pandemic. Now, they're trying to figure this thing back out.
The things that should matter the most to them are making sure that their students are on track, that they graduate and are ready to go to college, career or whatever comes next.
JENNINGS: And you're convinced that having access to having looked at a Bible would stop them from seeing anyone?
CROSS: Oh, they got that at church, they got it at home. There are lots of places you can get the Bible and not have to pay for it.
JENNINGS: Do they? Absolutely.
JENNINGS: You don't know that they do. Some students don't have access to much at all.
PHILLIP: Hey, hey Scott, some students are not Christian, okay? I think that's part of the problem too. Everyone, hold on. Coming up next, we've got new reporting tonight about why the "Morning Joe" hosts made that trip down to Mar-a-Lago to meet with Trump. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat at the table to discuss. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:48:23]
PHILLIP: Avoiding an audit or ensuring access? Tonight, new reporting helps explain why Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski sound like entirely different humans this week on the topic of Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE SCARBOROUGH, "MORINING JOE" CO-HOST: It's time that fascism is called fascism, and Americans know exactly what they're voting for. There's a difference between conservatism, radicalism and fascism. This is fascism.
MIKA BRZEZINSKI, "MORNING JOE" CO-HOST: Joe and I went to Mar-a-Lago to meet personally with President-elect Trump. And for those asking why we would go speak to the President-elect during such fraught times, especially between us, I guess I would ask back, why wouldn't we?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at the table now is CNN's chief media analyst Brian Stelter, who's been speaking to his sources about that very trip, that video. So, jarring to watch. It looks a little hostage video-y.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Right, right. Detente, appeasement, I don't know what to call it. You know, Joe and Mika didn't say much about it today. But according to my sources, they believed, they credibly were concerned that they faced governmental and legal harassment with this incoming administration, essentially that they fear retribution and that's partly why they sought out this meeting.
PHILLIP: What kind of retribution are we talking about here?
STELTER: You know, I think there's a wide spectrum and to be fair to Brzezinski and Scarborough, they're not the only MSNBC hosts or the only, the word journalist is complicated, right, because they're more like personalities. But there are a number of journalists at places like the "A.P." and other big news outlets that are concerned about retaliation in the coming months.
[22:50:02]
Anything from IRS audits to lawsuits and things like that. There are media outlets balking up on lawyers, thinking about having more libel insurance, those sorts of things. Now, I don't know exactly what the specific concern Joe and Mika had was or wasn't, but they're not the only MSNBC personalities worried about retaliation. However, they are the only ones to go down to Mar-a-Lago and have a meeting.
PHILLIP: Yes, Scott, you were shaking your head.
JENNINGS: I mean, isn't it possible, too, that they're just two people who think -- are so full of themselves, so full of self-aggrandizement that they would feel like that they would be personally singled-out?
STELTER: Scott, don't tell anyone but some of their colleagues feel that way.
JENNINGS: Well, I just --first of all, I can see why. Second of all, if that's what happened and if that's what they truly believe, why did they go on TV and say that we went down there to meet with the president to tell him that hey anyone who's been critical of you, you know, you should treat us like journalists and not like the enemy. They didn't go on TV and say that. They went on TV and portrayed it much differently.
So, what I hear you saying in your reporting is they had a motive that they weren't willing to disclose to their audience, which I think should get them more scorn today than they were already getting to begin with.
PHILLIP: I mean, but isn't that, I mean, just to take a step back for a second here, let's say, I mean, I believe your sources, the fear that the Trump administration is going to come after you, prompts you to go down to Mar-a-Lago, and I can't describe the nature of the conversation, but it certainly seemed like an attempt to shake hands and make up so that bad things don't happen.
STELTER: Yes, yes, we know some lawmakers have done this. We know that for January 6th, some lawmakers, Republican lawmakers, were fearful of being attacked, of physical or all my harassment.
PHILLIP: But that's not physical -- that's not how journalism is supposed to work.
STELTER: It's not supposed to work in a democracy that way, but this is an unusual time. And look, I understand some people might think this is paranoia. Inside MSNBC, for example, there's some people who think these fears I'm describing are way overblown. But then there's others who are worried about prosecution. So, there's a wide range of concerns right now and --
JENNINGS: Prosecution for what?
STELTER: Well, that's a great question.
WILLIAMS: No one should worry about the fact that right now, look, we've got to get a grip. Election's over. It's time for us to figure out a way to sit down and communicate and talk to this president, this president-elect, and figure out how we can move this ship into good and steady waters. Whether we like it or not, we should be able to do that. You should just admit, I want to come down and talk to the president and find out what he's doing.
STELTER: Last week, Steve Bannon said, lawyer up, MSNBC producers. So, there is an environment, Scott, where there are understandable concerns.
CROSS: Because his acolytes have threatened certain MSNBC producers and shows. But Trump has not, you know, outwardly called out people himself, but some of the people who are very close to him have.
But in addition to that, and I think you included in your opening, I think there's also an access piece that is very important here. Not only does Trump have the White House, his party has the House, his party has the Senate. There is a, we need to talk to these people. You cannot stonewall them for the next four years either.
TROVER: I think, I'm glad they win. It proves they were completely full of it over the last couple of years. I can't wait to see who goes down there next. Maybe the ladies from "The View" can take the next shuttle down.
STELTER: Well -- and Trump has said others are calling for meetings. I think the question, Abby, is a year from now, will this all be paranoia? Will these worried producers and hosts and journalists and lawyers --will they all be relaxed a year from now because it turns out there was no retribution? I don't think we know the answer to that yet.
PHILLIP: Do you think, Montel, you said get a grip. Do you think that people should not be scared-- a journalist in particular?
WILLIAMS: I think it's incumbent upon the journalist to not be scared and say, I want to have the conversation. Let's start talking about how we come together to do the right things to move this country forward, rather than saying, I'm not going to talk to them. I'm not going to talk to them.
CROSS: But the conversation can't always be highlighting of the things that he wants. Because for Trump, the conversation is usually if it's not giving him glowing praise he doesn't want to have the conversation.
JENNINGS: That's every -- that's every president and every politician.
CROSS: Yes, but every president and every politician has not threatened people who sit in parks. WILLIAMS: If you approach him and say I have these ideas, I think he
will listen if the ideas are valid -- valid idea. I really believe that.
PHILLIP: He also has said that he's going to go after his political enemy, so that's on the table. Wouldn't you agree, Scott?
JENNINGS: Look, I think the campaign -- I agree with Montel. The campaign is over, the rhetoric is over, the government, the new administration will begin soon. Everybody ought to take a deep breath and let this man operate and treat him like you treat any other president.
PHILLIP: I would say --
STELTER: This morning, Elon Musk said the DOJ should arrest powerful bad faith actors.
PHILLIP: I think we should watch what he does, not just what he says. We're in the land of what Donald Trump is doing now. Everyone, thank you very much for joining us. Coming up next, an unusual pipeline for Donald Trump's nominations. We'll explain next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:16]
PHILLIP: Donald Trump is shopping, except that he's not looking for things on QVC, like My Pillow or Scrub Daddy. He's hunting for the highest officials in the United States government. Call it "As Seen on TV", the "As Seen on TV" cabinet.
President-elect Trump is not just picking personnel for his administration based on who is central casting, but he's putting them together quite literally based on who has already been cast on the small screen.
There's Pete Hegseth, the Pentagon pick and Fox Morning show host. Sean Duffy, a former congressman who was also a reality TV personality. Tulsi Gabbard, another Fox talking head. Mike Huckabee, a former governor who also had a Fox contract.
[23:00:00]
And Mehmet Oz, the doctor who -- with a syndicated show on which he sold Americans controversial products. So, the question is, who's next? The whole idea is to get all of us tuned in. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
