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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Says Musk Head Of DOGE, White House Says He's Not; Trump Dodges On Musk Decisions, Firings And Resignations; Steve Bannon Says, Elon Musk Is Parasitic Illegal Immigrant; MAGA Universe Says SNL Skit Reviled Them; Michigan Judge Sentences Shoplifters To Wash Cars For Free In A Walmart Parking Lot. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired February 18, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, who's in charge? Civil servants abandoned their government gigs to send a message as the Trump administration refuses to say --
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: does Elon Musk know he's not in charge of Doge?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, what is his role at DOGE?
PHILLIP: Who's leading the president's? Great purge of the federal bureaucracy.
Plus, side by side. The president and the billionaire get equal time to sell their vision and to complain --
ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA AND SPACEX: And I used to be adored by the left, you know?
PHILLIP: -- about their critics.
Also, just a joke or a deplorables rerun? MAGA makes a mountain out of a moment on SNL's 50th special.
And his take.
STEPHEN A. SMITH, HOST, THE STEPHEN A. SMITH SHOW: They need to get their act together before somebody like me takes it real seriously.
PHILLIP: Stephen A. says Democrats are in the worst shape ever.
SMITH: This is bad, bro.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Ashley Allison, Lance Trover, Arthur Aidala, Cari Champion, and Donte Mills.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about. If not him, then who? Tonight, the president is going full Marie Kondo on the federal government, throwing out thousands of federal jobs that he and Elon Musk see as wasteful. So, who is really in charge of the federal government is on the record, in court, saying it's not Elon.
This is from a court filing in one of the cases where DOGE is defending its legal -- defending itself from a legal challenge to its authority. It says this, quote, like other senior White House advisers, Elon Musk has no actual or formal authority to make government decisions himself. Well, if that isn't clear enough, maybe this is. Quote, he, Musk, is not an employee of the U.S. DOGE Service. Mr. Musk is not the DOGE Service administrator. Really?
Well, think about that for a moment. The government wants you to believe that the person putting thousands of people out of work, making them rethink their entire lives, how they feed their families, technically, he has no power to do what he's doing. And the president says he doesn't really care.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Elon is, to me, a patriot. So, you know, you could call him an employee. You could call him a consultant. You could call him whatever you want. But he's a patriot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: But when the president-elect -- the president said that the president elect, he did have a very clear idea about who was actually in charge. This was his answer just a few weeks ago. He said it was Elon Musk. Here's the Truth Social post to prove it. Quote, the great Elon Musk working in conjunction with American patriot Vivek Ramaswamy, no more, will lead the Department of Government Efficiency. Ramaswamy is gone, but Elon Musk is still here.
And if you're going, well, that's one social media post, well, he also said it as well. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We will create the new Department of Government Efficiency headed by Elon Musk.
We will create the new Department of Government Efficiency headed by a gentleman named Elon Musk who's here someplace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Okay, so now even asking questions about DOGE and its mission is apparently out of bounds.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR POLICY: You may assert there's no waste in the Pentagon. You may assert there's no waste in Treasury. You may assert there's no waste in HHS.
KEILAR: Stephen, I don't think anyone --
MILLER: Then why are you not celebrating these cuts? If you agree there is waste, if you agree there is abuse, if you agree there is corruption, why are you not celebrating the cuts?
KEILAR: Stephen, let's calm down.
MILLER: Higher salaries of American workers that are taxed disappear forever.
KEILAR: Stephen, let's calm down. This is not -- we're not having a debate About whether there are places --
MILLER: Well, you are clearly trying to debate me, and I will be as excited as I want to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat is Donte Mills. He's a civil and criminal attorney and a law professor at Temple University's Beasley School of Law.
[22:05:01]
And he will also be as excited as he wants to be.
You know, why are they so finicky about wanting to call Elon Musk the head of DOGE? What are the legalities here that they're trying to avoid?
DONTE MILLS, NATIONAL TRIAL ATTORNEY: I feel like I have to start by saying go birds, and now that that's out the way. I can say, so there's an appointments clause that says that Congress has to establish any new offices within the government. And once they establish that, whoever fills that or leads that has to be -- has to go through a screening from Congress, right? Elon Musk wants to avoid that.
So, what they're trying to do with the Trump administration is act as if this is an advisory committee and not an official department. However, you see them operating as an official department. They want access to certain documents. They're making more than just recommendations because whatever comes from that office happens. So, they're doing more than making recommendations. They're having access to public records. They are an official department.
But Elon Musk does not want the conflicts to come in place because if he's determined to be a governmental employee, then he has to give up those governmental contracts that he has with his company. So, there's a reason why they want to create that separation. I think they're doing a bad job of doing it. But there's a reason. CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's too late. As Abby, just thank you for all the sound bites, he's the head of the department. And what I think is really interesting is how when I read different articles, they call his team of friends or people who think like him officials. They are not officials because --
PHILLIP: Well, some of them are. Some of them apparently are employee.
CHAMPION: Some are, but for the reality that 19-year-old or that 25- year-old or whomever we were referring to who was making these comments early, remember last week or two weeks ago, we were talking about that. A lot of his employees are people that -- not his employees, the people that are working for DOGE are people that are likeminded with him and he's in charge of them. So, it's clear that he still is, to your point, in charge, but it's a bad separation.
I also think the talking points are too late. Here's my thing. They have already decided that he was in charge. Many of us already know. Little X told us we're going to do it quietly. They'll never know. Little X said, shut your mouth. You're not the president. Little X told us what the game was. And if we're pretending like Little X and give us a window into what is actually happening, I think that's ridiculous. I know people may disagree, but I'm here to tell you, Little X gave us the information.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I mean, can we really be surprised though? I mean, a lot of the sound bites, or at least one or two you showed, was, I believe, during the campaign. So, how can we be surprised? Like today, he did the IVF, right, promises made, promises kept. He's going to make it a lot easier for people to get funding for IVF. So, this is no secret. He was talking about -- he just said it. That was him on the campaign trail. So, are we like surprised?
PHILLIP: He's saying that Elon is in charge of DOGE, but they don't want to have him go through an accountability process. And the lack of accountability, I think, extends beyond just whether who has the title, right? There's a court filing today in the hearings, some of the hearings that have been going on, saying, the defendants are aware that a select set of agencies, in fact, terminated a number of employees at the end of last week. How many? They can't say. Why?
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Do we really care that much? Do voters care that much? Do voters care that much? That's a serious question. About whether he is in charge or isn't in charge. We have a president of the United --
PHILLIP: Do they care about the jobs or Elon is what I'm trying to clarify.
TROVER: I'm saying do they care whether he's in charge or not in charge, or do they care what's getting done every single day. Because from what I've seen -- what's that?
MILLS: Do they have the right to know?
TROVER: No. We have a president of the United States who executes and makes these decisions every single day. He made that clear in their press conference with them. My point is --
PHILLIP: So, why would they avoid the same accountability that every other agency head has? I mean, if the public has a right to know about who's the head of the Department of Homeland Security, why not the head of DOGE?
TROVER: Well, he is, from what I understand, what's called an SGE, a special governmental employee. That happens all the time throughout government, where people come into the government, they are unpaid and serve as advisers and save advisers for roles. That's what I'm saying.
CHAMPION: Are they from South Africa?
TROVER: Let me finish. Let me finish. This is what happens -- yes, this is what happens in government all the time. Everybody's worked up because of what they're doing. That's my point. The president is the president. He has advisers all the time around him. Are we worried about every single agency and who's doing what at all times? No, of course, we're not because it's Elon Musk and Donald Trump. That's why we're blowing it out of proportion. But I would argue --
PHILLIP: But it's also because there are reportedly tens of thousands of people, maybe many more than that, losing their jobs, entire functions of the government no longer functioning. I'm just saying it's not just because people are suddenly interested in the nitty- gritty details. It's because all of a sudden whole swaths of the government that were functioning before are not anymore. And don't you think --
TROVER: Well, no, I don't think that's true. What do you mean the government's not functioning?
[22:10:00]
PHILLIP: The entire Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is not functioning. That's an entire function that's --
(CROSSTALKS)
TROVER: Does anybody --
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think two things are happening. I actually don't disagree with what you're saying. I think that Donald Trump and Elon Musk are placing a bet that the American people actually don't care, but I think Democrats have a responsibility to explain why they should.
CHAMPION: Yes.
ALLISON: My sister's a teacher. She talks about her students being terrified that her -- it's in Washington, D.C. -- that their parents are losing their jobs. It's impacting the students and how they show up to learn every day at that school. There are people in Kansas, farmers in the Midwest who are not getting access to grants, Trump voters. That is what we need to be telling the American people. I think what Donald Trump and Elon Musk are doing is terrible, and as someone who loves our government and thinks that it's important, I do want to know all the ins and outs. But when Americans, we just learned this on November 5th, they actually might not care as much as who is in charge, but they do care what they are doing. This is where I disagree with you.
And I think what Elon Musk and them are doing right now, deciding to cut, fire FAA officials when it seems like we have a plane crash in this country every other day, people don't feel safe to fly in the air right now in this country. And what Donald Trump is doing feels like it's tone deaf.
What Democrats have a responsibility to do now is to translate that into the American people. Not in Washington, D.C., but on Main Street, where their eggs are still too expensive, bacon is still too expensive, bread is still too expensive.
MILLS: Government waste exists, and I applaud them for trying to get rid of it.
(CROSSTALKS)
MILLS: We're not defending cutting government waste, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have on X a numbers thing running with the amount of money you're saving but then say how dare you ask us how we're doing it or who's in charge of it. You can't do it.
ALLISON: Or where it goes. This is the other thing.
MILLS: Or where it goes.
ALLISON: I want the American people to also pay close attention to the tax fight that's about to happen. And I know we don't like to talk about the specifics of the tax fight. But they're talking about all this money being saved. Well, you might want to expect that a check from the government to come back into your pockets, but most Americans aren't going to get that check. But do you know who will get that check? The 1 percent of billionaires and millionaires who are going to get benefits from these?
PHILLIP: It's not going to make up for it. I mean, I'm just telling you the facts are, okay, DOGE says that they have cut about $16 billion, which is a rounding error in the federal government's budget. But of that $16 billion, they claim they saved 8 billion, this is according to The New York Times, 8 billion on a single contract. Turns out, it wasn't 8 billion, it was 8 million. So, we're talking pennies here. In the scale of the $6 trillion federal budget, it's pennies. And to Ashley's point, there is going to be a tax bill, there's going to be a budget put forward, and it's going to add trillions in spending so where is DOGE actually making a difference or are they just cutting things that ideologically don't fiddle?
TROVER: Well, I don't think there was ever a promise made that we're going to pay for a tax cut bill with what DOGE did or what they're doing. That was never --
PHILLIP: I thought Elon said it was $1.2 trillion.
TROVER: Well, that may be true, but I don't think the commitment was ever we're going to pay for a tax --
AIDALA: Well, we're one month in. We're one month. Not even one month, right? It's not even February 21st. So, you know, like, it's 28 days. It's four weeks.
CHAMPION: Okay, wait, hold on.
AIDALA: Let's see what happens.
CHAMPION: But, Ashley, help me. Can someone help me? Why are we -- maybe you can. Maybe you can help me. Why are we talking about Elon Musk as someone who can come in and slash the government spending, because he is in charge. and we're not like, the guy who made my Tesla's in charge of the federal government? Tell me where -- what are his qualifications? What are his qualifications? And I don't --
(CROSSTALKS)
AIDALA: The president trusts him.
CHAMPION: Do not, because the president --
AIDALA: The president trusts him. That's the president's prerogative. You're going to be on the United States Supreme Court. You're going to be a secretary of state.
CHAMPION: That's fine.
MILLS: No, everybody that you just mentioned though, goes through a hearing, a separate hearing.
CHAMPION: That is my point. There's no law. There's no law. There's no law.
AIDALA: How many positions there are very close to the president that are not confirmed by the Senate? You lived it.
ALLISON: Yes.
CHAMPION: This man is asking for important information and he wants to play in my taxes.
ALLISON: We go through a six-month security clearance whether you are answering the phone or whether you are in the Oval every day, literally, if you are answering the phone or you are in the Oval Office every single day, you go through, what is it, a FS 68 or FS -- you know what I mean, some tech, some form. It is about a hundred pages long. You have to fill it out before you can even walk in. People get calls for six months from the FBI checking your background, asking questions.
And then if you're on any boards, if you own any stocks, anything like that, you have to relinquish them before you get a /gove.
AIDALA: Okay. Just explain this to me. If you get elected in January and you're taking office in two months, where's the six months that the FBI vets everybody?
[22:15:03]
ALLISON: You vote, because as soon as you win, you have vetting attorneys that are already on your transition team.
AIDALA: Okay, go ahead.
ALLISON: You get an interview from a vetting attorney, and you start -- it's an expedited, Somebody at that level, quite honestly, at Elon's level, would get an expedited vetting process that could be done in six months. But the due diligence happens for six more months.
AIDALA: But how do we know that's not happening? I'm just asking. How do we know it's not happening.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: That's a very good question. The questions are being asked. The White House is just not answering them.
CHAMPION: Correct.
PHILLIP: And when news organizations like CNN say, okay, we're going to put a FOIA in place to just find out what documents were filled out, that office is gone.
MILLS: And why is it (INAUDIBLE) so strong?
PHILLIP: Everyone hang tight there. There's more.
Speaking of Elon Musk, MAGA champion Steve Bannon is apparently not a fan. Why he's calling Musk a parasitic illegal immigrant who wants to do freak experiments on Americans. He really said that.
Plus, conservatives, they like calling liberal snowflakes, but after their outrage over Tom Hanks on SNL, are those on the right now the pearl clutchers?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, a battle for the MAGA spotlight and Donald Trump's attention. Steve Bannon once steered the president's campaign and his Oval Office, and now he's on the outside looking in. But Bannon has some not so nice things to say about the man who sat next to Trump tonight for a primetime Fox interview, and that's Elon Musk.
Bannon says quote, Musk is a parasitic illegal immigrant. He wants to impose his freak experiments and play act as god without any respect for the country's history, values, or traditions. Bannon also goes on to describe DOGE's efforts as performative, but for now he's not ready to dispense with Musk. It's pretty evident that the president is using him as an armor-piercing shell that's delivering blunt force trauma against the administrative state.
Arthur, we should disclose, is Steve Bannon's lawyer on a case that was just in the headlines last week. You talked to him about --
AIDALA: Well, I told him I'm going on with Abby. I said, you got something to say first. I just need to say he's been an excellent client. He really has been. I mean, I deal with some very difficult people.
PHILLIP: Nothing but good clients.
AIDALA: No. That's not true. But that's not true. He has been -- no. It means he listens. It means he says, okay, you're the lawyer, I'm not, you tell me what to do, you tell me how to handle this.
PHILLIP: So, what's the beef with Elon? Why is all that happening?
AIDALA: Well, this is what he allowed me, gave me permission to tell you, Abby. He said, Steve Bannon is a hardcore populist nationalist, America first and American citizens first, anti-oligarch, anti-big tech, anti-concentration of power, anti-network state, and techno feudalism. Defender of American workers thinks Silicon Valley oligarchs live off of bringing in foreign workers to take jobs from citizens.
Steve wants to totally shut down H1B visas and a moratorium on all immigration until our visa issues are sorted. Bannon supports deconstruction of the administrative state, deep state, and DOGE efforts, but thinks needs to show real cuts for this budget fight now.
PHILLIP: That's actually kind of what we were talking about in the last segment, the real cuts. And he also had a warning about some of the real cuts that actually would be required in order to get to some numbers that actually matter when it comes to the budget. Here's what he said on Bannon's program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP CHIEF STRATEGIST: Medicaid, you gotta be careful, cause a lot of MAGA's on Medicaid. I'm telling you, if you don't think so, you are dead wrong. Medicaid's going to be a complicated one. I just can't take a Medex to it, although I would love to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Tough choices coming up, because if you really want to talk about money, Elon is -- they're going to have to put him on the Department of Defense, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security. That's where all the money is.
TROVER: Well, we've seen him going into defense, I think, recently this week. That's been happening. I think there's been -- that's been happening. Look, yes, there's no question. And this is going to take some congressional action as well. And the question is, will there be the will in Congress to make some of the serious cuts that are needed as well? I think there will be some congressional approval that wouldn't be needed on some of that stuff.
ALLISON: One thing about Steve Bannon is he is consistent in his anti- immigrant rhetoric.
PHILLIP: I see a lot of appreciation on you.
ALLISON: I mean, the consistency is impeccable.
CHAMPION: Were you offended by that? Because I -- that was -- I mean, I was like, okay, all right, I know where you're going. I know where you're going.
ALLISON: But I do like he's so consistent that even like someone that is now an ally to Donald Trump and is doing things, like undermining the -- what Elon Musk is trying to do is actually destroy the administrative state. There is not a deep state, but he is trying to destroy the administrative state by these cuts. So, that's why he is not totally saying to Elon Musk right now.
But what he said in his War Room is really important, and, again, is what Democrats have to figure out, is that the strategy or the policy programs are going to not just impact Democrats. They are going to impact Trump voters who live below the poverty line, who are middle class, who said it was the eggs and the economy in this election.
And they're not going to be -- and if they start to do Social Security -- it's not just Social Security. It's not just Medicaid. It's not just Medicare. It's what was tapped into when they did that funding freezing. It's Section 8. It's WIC. It's Head Start. Those go in rural areas and in urban areas.
[22:25:01]
And there is an opportunity for Democrats and people across the board to say, this is the working class fight right now. Elon Musk and Donald Trump are new management that come into your plant, your factory in your small town. They don't care about you. They don't care about your city. They care about their pockets. And they lay you off, the product doesn't get better, and you lose your job. And that's what's happening in our government right now. If Democrats can connect that dot, midterms are going to be --
CHAMPION: But Steve is on to something. I just want to say, you say we ran on eggs and economy, but it was also make America great again. What he was saying to me, and what I was able to gather, and you can tell me if it's wrong from your client, was that who is this man that I've been saying from day one, and I'll scream that every time while I sit here because I think we over talk that, who is this man making these decisions deciding what should happen in our economy, and it makes no sense. So, to your point, he doesn't even go here, thank you, friend.
MILLS: We can simplify it by saying this. Elon Musk is a businessman.
CHAMPION: Sure.
MILLS: America, the country, is not a business. So, (INAUDIBLE) has a business.
CHAMPION: No, not his business.
MILLS: You have to factor in people's lives.
AIDALA: But, Professor, with all due respect --
MILLS: Treating as a business, this is for the people, by the people.
AIDALA: But all due --
MILLS: Sometimes trimming the fat is not going to help the American people saves the bottom line.
AIDALA: I know New York City is not the United States of America, but those of us in New York will tell you Michael Bloomberg may have been the greatest mayor of the 12 years in the city of New York, and he ran New York City, he ran his administration like a business. He took everyone out of their offices, put them in a bullpen, and he said, we're going to do this like I run Bloomberg, where I started with nothing, and, boy, was New York fantastic for those 12 years.
CHAMPION: Where was he born?
AIDALA: Boston, I think. Well, listen, (INAUDIBLE) you're the anti- immigration just because the guy was born in another country? I'm not holding that against him.
PHILLIP: Some strange bedfellows unfolding here, but, Lance, let me give you the last word.
TROVER: I think this is the misunderstanding. I think we're a much different country. I hear what you're saying, Ashley. We may get down the road and maybe there's not that toleration for it. We are a much different country and a much different electorate than we were eight years, even four years ago. I think there's a lot more tolerance for a lot of the cuts that we see coming up.
ALLISON: Unless they don't improve their lives.
PHILLIP: Well, at the end of the day, that's what it will all come down to, but we'll see where the line is for most Americans.
Everyone, stick around. It's day two of MAGA outrage over SNL. Is the response appropriate, or are people accusing Democrats of being too soft, too sensitive? They are themselves doing the same thing. We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:31:53] PHILLIP: Snowflakes or appropriately appalled? The MAGA universe says that they are reviled by an SNL skit in which a MAGA hat wearing Tom Hanks refuses to shake the hand of the Black Jeopardy host. Their reaction makes it out as if it's another deplorable moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: This is the same tired humor we've heard since 2016.
TOMI LAHREN, FNC CONTRIBUTOR: Hollywood has become culturally irrelevant, due in large part to the election of Donald Trump. And it makes them furious. It's really condescending and insulting to these Hollywood actors, viewers that made them famous.
SEAN HANNITY, FNC HOST: It's like 10 years of this and they still haven't learned a thing. It reveals they hate and have contempt for the hardworking men and women in this country that make it great.
LINK LAUREN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, RFK JR. PRES. CAMPAIGN: They like to fly between Los Angeles and New York and look down on the rest of the country and that's what we saw with Tom Hanks.
BOB BROOKS, NEWSMAX ANCHOR: That is so low. I mean, that is so low and uncouth and disgusting. A lot of his movies are average anyways.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINA; DEFENSE ATTORNEY: His movies are average? Hold on, hold on, hold on. His movies are average? Come on. How many of these won more Oscars than any -- one of the greatest of all time.
PHILLIP: I don't know about that one but I also just wonder, is it really that deep?
UNKNOWN: No.
MILLS: And that was when a girl turns you down, you're like, I don't really like her.
CHAMPION: She's ugly.
MILLS: Yeah, she's ugly.
PHILLIP: I think there is this fixation, it seems. Look, I know Trump is a little bit fixated with SNL. He likes the way he's -- he likes to control how he's portrayed in media whether it's a "Time" magazine cover or whatnot. But this is just a skit. It's just a skit.
TROVER: I thought a lot about this. I think this goes to "SNL". And in my view, when it comes to comedy, pretty much anything goes. I think most people would agree with that. I think the problem we have here is, is that it wasn't really that funny.
And it's not been funny for 2016, and since 2016 for a lot of Americans out there. And I think that's the problem with "SNL", is that they have become so pointed and personal in their attacks on Trump and his supporters.
Think about this, just for one second, though. Dana Carvey, the best H.W. Bush impersonator, the president loved it, invited him to the White House. It was bipartisan and hilarious. Darrell Hammond was a great Bill Clinton impersonator, did phenomenal skits, bipartisan, everybody loved him.
That's not this. It has become so pointed. And I do agree, I think it reflects that these folks are really out of touch, particularly after November 5th, with where the rest of America is.
MILLS: But they had Kamala Harris impersonations in there. I think they gave it both ways.
PHILLIP: And Trump has been on "SNL".
MILLS: They gave it both ways in its comedy.
CHAMPION: Why 2016? Why that year for you?
PHILLIP: This was also, by the way, an old skit.
TROVER: He did the skit in 2016.
CHAMPION: So you're saying it's not funny anymore after 2016?
TROVER: I'm saying I never really found it funny. And I do -- just think when you look at the history of "SNL" and what they've done with politicians, whether it was Dana Carvey or Darrell Hammond, and that it was bipartisan, people liked it. This is much more pointed towards Donald Trump and his supporters.
PHILLIP: Isn't it also --
CHAMPION: Well, I agree they can't -- they can't keep going after the Democrats. I agree with that.
PHILLIP: I mean, couldn't -- but couldn't Trump have invited these impersonators on --
CHAMPION: They have to be more -- I agree with you on that.
PHILLIP: -- to the White House and just said, hey, let's have a laugh at my own expense? I mean --
CHAMPION: Yeah.
[22:35:00]
PHILLIP: I mean, it seems like the person who's not willing to take the laugh is the president.
TROVER: Well, I mean, you have -- you have a guy in a MAGA hat who's not wanting to shake a person's hand because they're African-American. I mean, that's just not true. That's not how --
ALLISON: It's not funny.
TROVER: That's not funny and it's not accurate.
CHAMPION: It's not accurate?
TROVER: No, of course not. This is what I'm talking about.
CHAMPION: I'm asking a question.
TROVER: Seventy-seven million people voted for this guy.
CHAMPION: I just asked a question. I said, is it --
PHILLIP: No, but Carrie, Lance is raising an interesting question. The stereotype of the MAGA voter is maybe what was portrayed in that skit, but the truth is the MAGA voter is your next door neighbor.
CHAMPION: Sure.
PHILLIP: He's the person living in your house.
CHAMPION: Sure.
ALLISON: Yeah.
CHAMPION: Sure.
PHILLIP: A luxury apartment building. He's the person down the street. He's your cousin.
ALLISON: The stereotype though also --
PHILLIP: Not quite what the reality is.
ALLISON: But the stereotype is also that the Democratic voter is some crazy left radical, and they also are your neighbor.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
ALLISON: And I think this is the point. Like things -- you said in the last segment, things are different since 2016. We all have to take responsibility of what role we have played in making things so different. And the person that was being pointed fun at, which is Donald Trump, has a crucial role in why we are in a different place in our politics.
CHAMPION: I think it works both ways to her point.
ALLISON: It does work both ways. I --
CHAMPION: You can't just say it's so pointed, people are tired of it.
AIDALA: No, but Lance, to your point, if I don't think there's anyone who's rooting for Donald Trump to win the presidency more than Stephen Colbert and Seth Meyers.
TROVER: Right.
AIDALA: Their whole monologue every night is about Donald Trump. If he was gone right now and Kamala was there, I don't know what they would have nothing to say. And they do get personal. But I don't -- I wasn't offended by the Tom Hanks thing. I think that was the funniest segment of the whole night. Everyone's got to have some thick skin and let's make some jokes and laugh it ourselves.
PHILLIP: And let's not remember that not too long ago, Republicans were also saying this about a joke.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think that we have to stop getting so offended at every little thing in the United States of America. I'm just, I'm so over it.
WILL CAIN, WILL CAIN SHOW" HOST: I don't think people should be offended. I think we should all spend less time trying, literally trying to be offended. It imbues the offended with power. With victimhood comes power.
JIM NORTON, COMEDIAN: The whole thing is like a shell game. We're all pretending to be upset that we're being insulted. America's motto should be, oh, how could you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And by the way, let me just be clear. This was when they were talking about a comedian joking that Puerto Rico was a floating pile of garbage. So, a joke's out.
AIDALA: No, that offended me. That actually offended me.
PHILLIP: Don't be a snowflake.
AIDALA: I'm sorry, I know. That's who I am.
CHAMPION: But you -- but to your point -- to your point, I do believe comedians, and even Roy Wardwood Jr., who was on here the other night, he said the same thing, that the way in which comedians start to attack the president, they have to give it back both ways. We can't just continue to go after Republicans.
MILLS: Sometimes another comedian said that the ones that affect you are the ones that --
CHAMPION: That's true. But the whole -- but the guy with the MAGA hat not wanting to shake the hand of a black person, that's an extreme. That's an extreme. That's an extreme.
TROVER: That's what I'm talking about.
MILLS: Most people won't relate to that.
CHAMPION: But there are also -- but there are also other extremes in which they portray people who were too wokey or DEI, whatever you'd like to call those people. And that's unfair too, as well. They're both, you can't just decide to outrange by one or the other.
TROVER: Well, that's what I was saying about when you look at the '90s, if you look, they were making fun of the presidents. They're making fun of the supporters. They're mocking the supporters and saying things. That is who Tom Hanks, he was not Donald Trump. He was a MAGA supporter.
CHAMPION: Okay, so you are saying --
MILLS: He was an extremist.
TROVER: Seventy-seven million people went and voted for this guy in November 5th.
MILLS: But you should be able to mock an extremist without everybody else saying.
CHAMPION: An outrage.
TROVER: I started this by saying I think everything's fair game.
PHILLIP: I think that you're making a fair point to a degree. But I think you would also have to be, if you're going to be fair-minded about this --
TROVER: Right.
PHILLIP: -- you would also have to say that all the people who are, you know, woke, DEI, they're screaming all that language at the other side should stop that, too.
TROVER: I think comedy should be fair game for everybody. But I think comedy should be fair game for everybody.
ALLISON: I'm at the point where it's like, can we?
PHILLIP: Okay, so fair game meaning this was fine.
TROVER: No, I know. No, I don't love it. I'm saying, look, I wasn't personally completely offended by it. I'm I am bothered by the fact that I feel like they are mocking at least 77 million people in this country. I guess. I mean, they can't sit there and --
PHILLIP: Comedy is comedy.
AIDALA: The whole skit was they were mocking black people. I mean, Black "Jeopardy". It was like they were offending everybody.
PHILLIP: Yeah, there's that, too.
ALLISON: I think that's a point. Like, I don't actually think it's SNL's job to stay above the fray.
CHAMPION: Yeah. ALLISON: It's their -- their job is like comedy stuff. I actually
think that people sitting at this table, we have a job and a responsibility. When something like that happens, it's our job to dissect why people are offended and why people aren't offended and really understand why is our country so divided right now.
If a black person feels like they see somebody with a MAGA hat and they are -- they are intimidated or whatnot, that's a conversation we need to have in our country to move past this point where we are right now. But instead, I think we veil it behind like skits.
[22:40:00]
And it's like, oh, you know, you're going to lose forever. I don't -- I don't want to live like -- this is --
CHAMPION: Were you outraged when you saw that? I don't think there was --
ALLISON: No, but I am not for Donald Trump.
CHAMPION: -- but my point is there is no outrage.
PHILLIP: One last thing --
CHAMPION: Like I think we're overdoing it.
PHILLIP: -- just about the right, right now. I mean, right now, they want to cancel the "A.P." over not calling it the Gulf of Mexico. They want to --
CHAMPION: Which is ridiculous.
PHILLIP: You can't say undocumented anymore.
CHAMPION: Ridiculous.
PHILLIP: -- you have to say illegal aliens. You can't say -- so a whole host of things that you can't say anymore. I mean it - "The Atlantic" put it this way, "How the woke right replaced the woke left." I mean is that where we are?
MILLS: Well, they are going to control the narrative. They're going to pick up on these morsels and try and blow it out of proportion --
CHAMPION: Yes.
MILLS: -- and say the left, they're being mean, and that's why you should never go back to them.
CHAMPION: Yes.
MILLS: They're going to blow it out of proportion. I think they're doing this a little bit, too. I don't think they're as offended as they're making it out to be.
CHAMPION: Correct.
MILLS: But of course they're going to exaggerate it and make it seem as if it's the worst thing in the world.
ALLISON: Also, these are not elected officials. Let's just be also really clear.
CHAMPION: Really? They're not?
ALLISON: These are comedians. And so, they compare it to somebody running for the president of the United States to the comedian. I think those are two different -- those are not apples to the oranges. Those are like apples to a cow. You know?
CHAMPION: You know, that's true.
ALLISON: Apples to a cow.
CHAMPION: Oh my goodness.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Coming up next, is the Democratic Party in such dire straits that it needs to nominate a sports host as a presidential candidate. Well, that host thinks that he should be nominated. We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:45:45]
PHILLIP: He is the loudest voice in sports and tonight Stephen A says, if Democrats don't get it together, he just might be their best shot in 2028.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN A. SMITH, ESPN HOST: But you came to me and said, listen, there is nobody else. And America is clamoring for you, which I sincerely doubt would ever happen. But if that were to happen, would I give a strong consideration? I won't lie. Yes, I would.
I believe it is an utter embarrassment to the Democratic Party that I am a candidate in people's eyes for the presidency of the United States is an indictment against them and they need to get their act together before somebody like me or somebody else takes it real seriously and says the hell with you all, because the roster that I'm seeing right now --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's not Stephen A threatening us.
UNKNOWN: Well --
PHILLIP: He's been on, we had him on the show talking about this very issue, around this time actually, probably a year ago. So, this has been floating around for a while. AIDALA: But can't you make a little bit of an analogy of that -- what
happened with Trump?
ALLISON: Yeah.
AIDALA: In other words, like he was like, look, Jeb Bush, where are we going to go? Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton, like, you know, and I don't see anyone else out there who's so great, so I'm going to go in there and he won. Now, I don't know if Stephen Smith is going to win for the president.
ALLISON: And this is her people. Who was calling Stephen A. Smith and saying that?
CHAMPION: Well, he said they -- like he would take it -- if you need him.
ALLISON: If somebody did call.
CHAMPION: If they need him, he'd be like, I'm more than willing. Stephen A if you're watching, classic you. He's such a -- he's a wonderful human. He's going to do it for America. I believe -- no, no, I believe he would be great. I'm not even being funny. I believe that he would be great. I think he's someone to match the bombacity, the outrage, the performance of what we have going on right now. Stephen A could do that.
MILLS: I disagree with that. I do think that someone needs to come out. The Democratic Party is now all about anti-Trump and that's not going to work. When you think of Bill Clinton you think of home ownership.
You think of Obama, you think of health care. Think of Trump, you think of immigration. We need somebody to step up and have an issue spotting agenda where they can say here's how I'm going to directly help America.
CHAMPION: And you think he has an issue?
MILLS: I don't think Stephen Smith can do it. Clearly, somebody has to step up.
PHILLIP: If Democrats drafted a Stephen A, this, a personality as somebody who has sort of pop culture resonance, would that concern you as a Republican?
TROVER: Yeah, I want to say to Stephen A, stay where you are, because as a Republican, I want the Democrats to keep doing what they're doing because --
CHAMPION: Because you think you'd be good.
TROVER: Yes, I know.
CHAMPION: You think he'd be good.
TROVER: Because I think that --
ALLISON: I don't actually think that like the person who is the president has to be a career politician.
CHAMPION: I agree.
ALLISON: I think they should have some strong understanding of the government because if you don't then you get a DOGE. But you know, for a long time, people were trying. She was the former first lady, but she wasn't --
CHAMPION: They wanted a Michelle Obama.
ALLISON: They wanted Oprah.
CHAMPION: Sure.
ALLISON: They've talked about "The Rock".
PHILLIP: Yeah.
ALLISON: I think there's nothing wrong with wanting to serve your country in any way, shape or form in government or running for public office. I just think whoever it is has to have the qualifications to be able to understand how bills are made.
CHAMPION: I don't know if that's true, Ashley.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
CHAMPION: I just don't thing that's true. Yeah. But I don't think it's necessary.
PHILLIP: I don't know about that because -- I think that we've proven -- look, some -- a lot of times at this table the answer to the question of why is Donald Trump doing X, Y, and Z is oh, I don't think he knows how this works. So, I don't know that knowing how it works is a prerequisite for --
CHAMPION: I think Stephen A would be great.
MILLS: He got to learn to deliver the message.
CHAMPION: That's all you have to do. That's the point. He can deliver a really good message. He is very effective. He is the kind of person that you listen to him whether you agree or disagree, you're paying attention. He controls the room. And I'm not saying it's all about showmanship and I'm not saying he should be president. But what I'm saying is, it's not crazy. Look where we are right now.
PHILLIP: It is a little bit about showmanship. Let's play -- because this is what Stephen A had to say about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Get Trump-like. What I mean by that time is, be your real, true, authentic self.
[22:50:00]
For better or worse, can you genuinely tell me, as a person who covers this stuff for a living, that Trump surprises you?
UNKNOWN: No.
SMITH: What? Think about how he acts. Think about the things that he says. And then he goes and he tries to do it. For better or worse, he's letting you know, I don't care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHAMPION: Speaking truth.
ALLSION: Yes.
CHAMPION: He's fast.
PHILLIP: And I think that he shows up at the Super Bowl. He shows up at a NASCAR game.
CHAMPION: Yeah. He does whatever he wants.
PHILLIP: He is putting himself -we were actually just talking about this in the last segment. He inserts himself into the culture. You cannot ignore him.
TROVER: Yeah, but look, you may disagree here. He's authentic. And that's what people, Donald Trump, that's what people like about him, is that he is authentic.
AIDALA: But he's an anomaly, because I'm a criminal defense attorney. He has been so good to criminal defendants, with the First Step Act and helping people get out of jail, people who were sentenced under the Draconian crack laws, who got 10, 20 years for two or three vials of crack.
He's the guy who turned that around. Today, he does IVF. He's the president who's making it easier for women who are struggling to get pregnant to get the funding to pay for it.
PHILLIP: Well, okay, I just want to say about the IVF executive order. It says he's directed his government to study the issue. So, we will see what comes out of that.
AIDALA: Okay.
PHILLIP: But to your point, the laws of political gravity don't apply to Trump in the same way. You know, he did the First Step Act, got pilloried by conservatives.
AIDALA: Yeah.
CHAMPION: I just think, to the original question, I think Stephen A would not be a ridiculous candidate. I think he's sitting there and talking about it and thinking about it. And I know that sounds crazy for a lot of people.
MILLS: But I think there's someone else that we can find.
CHAMPION: There is someone else. I'm not saying -- I'm not saying -- listen --
AIDALA: I'm going with George Clooney. George Clooney.
CHAMPION: No, but I'm like, look what we have now. Is it too far off?
ALLISON: No.
CHAMPION: Could he be Trump-like?
TROVER: That's what I'm saying.
CHAMPION: Could he talk like Trump? You just said you would be afraid if Stephen A -- was actually the front man for the Democratic Party because it would worry you. Correct?
TROVER: Well, I'm saying I want the Democrats to keep doing what they're doing right now.
CHAMPION: You don't need to see -- so, he's saying --
TROVER: Sorry.
CHAMPION: I'm okay.
PHILLIP: All right. Our friend Stephen A is welcome to join us and finish off this conversation. Everyone, stay with us. Coming up next, the panel will give us their nightcaps. What alternative punishment would you give someone who was convicted of a petty crime? We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:56:55]
PHILLIP: We are back and it's time for the news nightcap, car wash edition. So, listen to this, a Michigan judge is sentencing shoplifters to wash cars for free in a Walmart parking lot. He says lawbreakers are sometimes down on their luck, but they should face punishment of some kind for breaking the law. So, you each have 30 seconds to tell us what creative punishment you would give for a petty crime. Arthur?
AIDALA: Well, this may be a very New York centric thing, but I would have them clean graffiti. And you'd think it sounds like it's no big deal. Well, someone tagged my white garage door and I went to the hardware store and I got the graffiti remover and boy, you got to really like put some elbow grease in there.
I'm not saying this for TV, it's the truth. It was like these SOPs, I can't believe. I'm spending Saturday afternoon not with my kids, wiping off some tag, I don't even know what it was. So, good. You want to commit a petty crime, clean some graffiti.
PHILLIP: All right, you better start with Arthur's house. Go ahead, Ashley.
ALLISON: I think that when someone who doesn't have like paid leave or an essential worker needs to take time off to take care of their sick kid, that the person who commits the petty crime has to be gubbin' for them for work without pay.
PHILLIP: That's a good idea. Hopefully, if they're good workers. Maybe not.
MILLS: I know but if a teacher wants to be substituted by a petty crime. But here's mine. So, I thought this throughout. If you get caught for a petty crime, like petty theft, you can't use or have access to what you tried to steal.
For example, if you steal Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, you can't eat Reese's Peanut Butter Cups for three months, right? If you steal socks, you can't wear socks with your shoes for three months. You better hope it's not the wintertime where you have Timbs on or something because you can't wear socks.
AIDALA: And Donte's going to check on everybody every day. Yeah, make sure you have no socks, no Reese's.
CHAMPION: He has no socks. He's in trouble. That makes sense, actually. If you try to steal a car, you can't use a car. You can't drive.
ALLISON: You got to walk everywhere.
CHAMPION: You got to walk everywhere. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. I get it. I like it. Mine would be you all are, and this is actually probably, it sounds like it's not a real crime, but it is a crime. And forgive me for everyone who loves Mariah Carey, but I'm sentencing you to a Mariah Carey concert, where in which she's carried around in lip- syncs.
Now, everyone doesn't think it's awful, but if you had to endure that day in and day out, it is something painful. I want to give a lot of love to my friend, Jemele Hill who went to see the concert and she said she loved it. You're lying, friend.
PHILLIP: I have to give a disclaimer. I have to give a disclaimer.
CHAMPION: You love, you love her.
PHILLIP: They are views of Cari Champion alone, not endorsed by "NewsNight" with Abby Phillip, Mariah.
CHAMPION: Find me.
PHILLIP: We love you. CHAMPION: Find me, find me.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Lance.
TROVER: This one struck a nerve with me. I am a dog owner. Agnes, two- year-old English Lab that I have at home. She is on the screen. She is a cutie. Like any good, you know, dog walker, everybody knows you have to go and clean up and pick up the poop after them. For some reason where I live in Washington, D.C., not everybody likes to do that. I don't know if this is a crime, not picking up dog poop.
PHILLIP: It is a crime. It is absolutely a crime.
AIDALA: It is in New York.
TROVER: It absolutely should be. I would argue punishment, like, you know, a hard labor camp out in the desert somewhere, I think would be nice.
[23:00:00]
But since we're going petty crime, I think if you do not clean up your dog's poop, you should have to go around the neighborhood, your community, and pick up, whether it's backyards, pick up dog poop, wearing a sign that says," I didn't pick up my dog's poop, now I have to pick up all the dog's poop."
CHAMPION: I agree. While listening to Mariah. Okay, just my thought.
TROVER: All in.
PHILLIP: The dog offenders are the absolute worst.
TROVER: Worst. Worst.
CHAMPION: That was really great.
PHILLIP: Just being a good citizen of the world.
CHAMPION: That's great.
PHILLIP: All right, everybody, thank you very much. Thank you for watching "NewsNight."Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
