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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Diplomatic Disaster After Trump And Zelenskyy Clash; Zelenskyy Says He Doesn't Owe Trump and Apology; Russian Leaders Gleeful After Trump-Zelenskyy Clash; Trump And Zelenskyy Meeting Turns Into A Shouting Match; Zelenskyy's Attire Gets Questioned At The Oval Office. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired February 28, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, a shouting match --
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: If you didn't have our military equipment --
PHILLIP: -- that will echo across the globe. The president turns the Oval office into the set of the apprentice to stage a reality T.V. spectacle --
TRUMP: You don't have the cards right now.
PHILLIP: -- to embarrass Ukraine's President.
Plus, you can hear the clink of glass in Moscow, Russians. Rejoice over Donald Trump's public flogging of Volodymyr Zelenskyy --
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
PHILLIP: -- while saying not one negative word about Vladimir Putin.
And rule number one of MAGA is you talk about how great Donald Trump is all the time.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Disrespectful. The way he confronted the president was just over the top.
PHILLIP: The president's allies do anything they can --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're the highest level in this country's office and you refuse to wear a suit.
PHILLIP: -- to prop up the president live at the table, Alexander Vindman, Reena Ninan, Keith Boykin, Pete Seat, Jenna Arnold, and Melik Abdul.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Philip in Washington -- in New York, excuse me.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, the Oval Office Octagon. Tonight, the world is reeling, wondering if it just watched a public shouting match. That is the prelude to a public divorce and proof that alliances that hold the west together are broken, perhaps beyond repair.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy arrived in Washington ready to put his pen to a minerals deal, what many view as a precursor to the peace talks that include a Ukrainian seat at the table with the United States and with Russia. But what normally would have been a run-of-the-mill Oval Office photo op, it devolved into something totally different, something without any obvious parallels, interruptions, raised voices, hurt feelings, demands, threats, world leaders sitting a few feet away, but a world apart.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: What kind of diplomacy, J.D., you are speaking about? What do you mean?
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country.
ZELENSKYY: Yes. But --
VANCE: Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media.
TRUMP: You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III. You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's backed far more than a lot of people said respect they should have.
VANCE: Have you said thank you once in this entire meeting?
ZELENSKYY: A lot of times.
VANCE: No. In this entire meeting, have you said thank you to us?
ZELENSKYY: Thank you, Mr. President. We are staying in our country, staying strong. From the very beginning of the war, we've been alone, and we are thankful. I said thanks in this cabinet.
TRUMP: You haven't been alone. We gave you, through this stupid president, $350 billion.
ZELENSKYY: You voted for your president.
TRUMP: We gave you military equipment. Your men are brave, but they had to use our military equipment. If you didn't have our military equipment, if you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks.
ZELENSKYY: In three days, I heard it from Putin. In three days. This is something you --
TRUMP: Maybe less.
ZELENSKYY: In two weeks. Of course, yes.
TRUMP: It's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this, I tell you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: That's an understatement. You know how you know this was exactly as bad as it looked? Well, the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, he sunk down in his chair during all of this. The Ukrainian ambassador, Oksana Markarova, she could only put her head in her hands.
The consequences were immediate. That rare minerals pack basically evaporated. The East Room where the deal was supposed to be signed, empty. Zelenskyy walked out of the White House and onto a Fox News set, and then he promptly told the world that he doesn't have a plan to say sorry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm not hearing from you, Mr. President, a thought that you owe the president an apology.
ZELENSKYY: No. I respect president and I respect American people.
I'm not sure that we did something bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Here in the studio, Alexander Vindman, have you ever seen anything like this? And what does this mean for Ukraine going forward?
LT. COL. ALEXANDER VINDMAN (RET.), U.S. ARMY: It's absurd. I've never seen or never read anything like this.
[22:05:00]
There's nothing in our history that suggests that a president that treat an ally like this, let alone an adversary. We wouldn't treat an adversary like this, another world leader.
PHILLIP: In public, no less.
VINDMAN: Yes. And I think what -- really, what's interesting to me is that there was a moment of clarity around this week, a couple of things. The first one is the U.N. vote, in which the U.S. sided with North Korea, with Russia against our allies, against Ukraine, and then today, earlier today, proceeded to try to berate the leader of a country that's been fighting for its own independence, its own sovereignty for three years, but also really defending the west, a bulwark against Russian aggression, beating up Russia in a way that makes us safer, makes the Europeans safer, making sure that Russia doesn't pose the same kind of threats. And what do we do? We beat him up for it.
And I'm pretty proud of the fact that he held his own against that room of sheer hostility. What's sad about this is, you know, my book released this week, it talks about the history of 30-plus years, Republican administrations, from George H.W. Bush all the way through to the Democratic administrations. And we've made mistakes along the way, but nothing like we've seen today.
PHILLIP: You know, just to reset expectations here. I mean, it seems to me the biggest issue here, and it's linked to what Alex just said, is that the Trump administration wants to change this idea that Russia is the enemy. Fundamentally, that's what this is about. The idea that Ukraine is needed as a bulwark against Russian aggression is just not something that they believe in.
REENA NINAN, FOREIGN AFFAIRS ANALYST: You know, it's an interesting point, because that's been the framework of how everyone has looked at this Ukraine-Russia conflict, is that, that Trump is more closer to Russia, he wants business dealings, that's how it's going to break down.
But what this really was today, Abby, was one part reality T.V. show and one part telenovela. And the thing about really good reality T.V. is everybody shows up and they know the parts that they're going to play. It was very clear J.D. Vance knew the part he was going to play. Trump said he opened it up so everybody could see the transparency and what is happening. But diplomacy doesn't -- this kind of diplomacy doesn't happen live on T.V. And bad reality T.V. is when the people don't play their parts, and then it goes off the rails, like we saw today.
PHILLIP: Yes. I want to play what -- you mentioned J.D. Vance, because this really all kicked off when Vance kind of went right at Zelenskyu when the press was there for this meeting. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: I think it's disrespectful for you to come to the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media.
And do you think that it's respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?
Have you said thank you once this entire meeting times?
ZELENSKYY: A lot of times.
VANCE: No. In this entire meeting, have you said thank you?
ZELENSKYY: Even today. VANCE: You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October, offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I have never seen a vice president behave like that in public, for sure. I've never even heard of it happening like this with the president in private. Does Zelenskyy -- is he the one that is the one who needs to issue an apology tonight?
PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Absolutely. He should have done it already. He should have done it in the Oval Office. If you look at the totality of that meeting, 40 minutes of that meeting, dare I say it was a perfect meeting. And I'm being ironic in that a little bit. But it was. It was positive. It was cordial and it's on camera. It wasn't until Zelenskyy got upset with J.D. Vance when the vice president said, and he was absolutely correct, that the previous administration was more interested in vapid wordsmithing than they were in bringing an end to this conflict. They cared more about applause lines at Davos than they did in ending the war in Ukraine. And he was correct about that. Zelenskyy was upset. And, quite frankly, he was testy throughout the entire meeting.
PHILLIP: Zelenskyy was upset because he was trying to make the point, and Alexander knows a lot about this --
SEAT: No. Zelenskyy was mad because he wanted to hear the president that Russia is bad, Russia is bad. How do you negotiate --
VINDMAN: It is nonsense. It's completely historical. This is the second administration of a president that oversaw four years of war between Russia and Ukraine, didn't do anything about it. Now, he thinks he has this idea to bring peace, and what does he do? He bends the knee. He appeases -- his goal is to appease Putin. What he should be doing is figuring out the fact that, you're right, the Biden administration didn't do enough. But Russia's on the ropes. And the way you get peace is you get Putin to negotiate.
[22:10:01]
You get --
SEAT: You get peace through a resolution at the United Nations. That means absolutely nothing? We demand that you withdraw.
VINDMAN: Six administrations have tried to conduct --
SEAT: Yes. They tried with words and Russia has been at war since the Russian Federation came into existence.
VINDMAN: Actually, it's been in war since four years of Trump. Also, don't forget he didn't manage --
SEAT: Since 1991, they have been almost at war the entire time. Crimea, Chechnya, go on down the list. And it's words. But my point is America is weak.
PHILLIP: Guys, hold on a second. Pete, one of the points that Zelenskyy was making is that you can't trust Putin. That's what he was trying to say, was that we had a deal with him before and he reneged on his deal and he was warning correctly that you can't just, you know, say, oh, handshake deal with Vladimir Putin and he's the guy that's going to live up to it because he hasn't, repeatedly.
SEAT: Yes, he hasn't repeatedly.
PHILLIP: So what's wrong about that?
SEAT: Well, what's different is Donald Trump is the president and you have to give the guy a chance. Just because you don't like President Donald Trump doesn't mean it's destined for failure. Give the guy a chance. And he has a better chance than Joe Biden ever had. He was president when the invasion happened and zero, zero, he did zip.
KEITH BOYKIN, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE AIDE: Are you finished with your filibuster? I mean, this was --
SEAT: You always interrupt me, so it's okay.
BOYKIN: This was absurd, what happened today. I mean, the idea that Zelenskyy has never thanked America, he has repeatedly thanked America, that's completely false, so J.D. Vance had no reason to say that. The idea that he should somehow apologize for what he's done. Did J.D. Vance ever apologize for calling Donald Trump America's Hitler or calling him an idiot? No, he hasn't. But somehow we're going to force Zelenskyy, the president of a country in the middle of a war, to apologize for something he has no reason to apologize. Did Trump apologize for calling Zelenskyy a dictator? Did he apologize for bringing Russia into the negotiation to try to solve a war without even including Ukraine in the negotiation process? No, at all, not at all. And J.D. Vance doesn't even know enough about the topic to be having a discussion when Zelenskyy asked him, have you ever been to Ukraine? He said, No, I've seen it on T.V. Are you kidding me? I've seen it on T.V. as your excuse for being able to lecture the president of Ukraine in the middle of a war as opposed to having some actual knowledge when he's telling you about Russia. And everyone knows about Russia's history except apparently J.D. Vance.
MELIK ABDUL, GOP POLITICAL STRATEGIST: It's clearly -- it's a political divide here, because it seems as if the Republicans are pretty happy with what happened. Let's not make sure we don't have the revisionist history. Donald Trump was responding to a reporter's question asking about whether or not, you know, Putin, Donald Trump responded to that. He said, next question. One more question. J.D. Vance then piggybacked off of what Donald Trump was saying, and he was talking about the importance of diplomacy. And what he specifically was saying. Is that negotiating with one side, which is what the United States and Europe has done this entire time, not inviting Putin to the negotiating table, J.D. Vance was talking about, that's how Donald Trump views diplomacy.
It was Zelenskyy then who then turned to J.D. Vance and said, J.D., not Vice President Vance, J.D., to ask him a question. There wasn't a reason for him to ask J.D. Vance anything. I thought that Donald Trump and J.D. Vance did exactly what they needed to do in that moment because he was surely disrespectful and he responded to it. I thought that they did exactly what they should have done. Bravo to Donald Trump and J.D. Vance.
BOYKIN: Melik, this was an ambush. It was clearly set up this way. I worked in the White House. You don't have events that go off the rails like this ever, except when Donald Trump's in the office, because they have some coordination of how these happen. There's a pool spray that comes in, they have a conversation for two or three minutes, and then the media leave, and you have the real serious business.
Donald Trump's staff is incompetent. That's the reason why this happened today. It happened before with Chuck Schumer, and it happened with Nancy Pelosi, when they were arguing over the budget negotiations, because Donald Trump likes a theatrical spectacle.
ABDUL: Did they force Zelenskyy to --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: You know, Keith, I actually disagree with you on that because You know, I think you've diagnosed the moment that this happened, but the fact that J. D. Vance engaged with Zelenskyy, I think it was not a mistake. I think Vance has always had an issue with Zelenskyy, and we'll talk more about that.
But the reception of this, you said it's a political divide, well, over in Moscow and among Russians, this was the reaction, an insolent pig finally got a proper slap down in the Oval Office. And another senior Russian senator, the Kyiv clown played his role of president poorly at the White House. A Russian foreign ministry spokesperson, how Trump and Vance restrained themselves and didn't hit this scoundrel is a miracle of self-control.
There is an agenda in Russia to demonize and really to get rid of Zelenskyy.
[22:15:00]
And the one thing perhaps that has come out of this is that there's a lot of agreement among some Republicans that Zelenskyy ought to be pushed out. What do you think that would do?
VINDMAN: First of all, you know, it's interesting that the Russians are on board damning Zelenskyy, who they've been trying to eliminate, assassinate on multiple occasions and failing. But the leaders of the free world, the other leaders, all of our closest friends, habitual friends, folks that have been there for us since 9/11 anytime that we're attacked, anytime that we need to rely to defend ourselves, our strongest trading partners, all of them came out in force unanimously supporting Zelenskyy. Why? Because this was clearly an ambush. This was J.D. Vance writing a false narrative about who the good guys were and who the bad guys were. Zelenskyy had just shown pictures of soldiers that were abused, talked about 20,000 kids being kidnapped and J.D. Vance decides to pick this fight. He claims that, you know, Putin's not the bad guy. Zelenskyy's just coming off the fact that just two days before, Trump called him a dictator. He came in there cool. Everything was really nice, copacetic, until that moment when J.D. Vance decided to blow it up. That was a big boy table. He wasn't ready for that conversation. He was, first of all, ignorant, maximally ignorant and, frankly, maximally destructive.
ABDUL: Why did Zelenskyy ask J.D. Vance a question? Why did he do that? Because it was out of form. Donald Trump had said, we have one more question. J.D. Vance was finishing, then Zelenskyy asked him a question. Why did he point to J. D. Vance?
PHILLIP: But isn't -- first of all, isn't Zelenskyy, as the president of Ukraine, an expert on his own country and on the negotiations and the deals that he himself was a part of the previous time before this latest invasion? So, if he wants to clear the record up, don't you think he has the right to do that?
ABDUL: As J.D. Vance said, that was not the platform in order to do that. Those conversations could have been had outside of the Oval Office. He decided to interject himself into the conversation when Donald Trump, pretty much at the end, was ready to -- he literally said it. One more question, and it was Zelenskyy who decided to insert himself. And he got a response from Donald Trump.
PHILLIP: We got more ahead. Coming up next, apparently, Zelenskyy's shirt is part of the problem, infuriating Trump, as MAGA ally in the room confronted the Ukrainian president over his wardrobe.
Plus, the clash has now become a Rorschach test on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RONNY JACKSON (R-TX): Don't you ever, ever come back to this country again and disrespect our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: More now on the Oval Office breakup between the president of the United States and the president of Ukraine. Already tonight, MAGA allies are doing what's required to keep most favored lawmaker status with Donald Trump, just to praise him and praise him again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: This is a message from me as a member of Congress to President Zelenskyy right now. Don't you ever, ever come back to this country again and disrespect our country, disrespect the Oval Office and disrespect my president the way you did today. After all that we've done for you, your unbelievable sense of entitlement is disgusting to me and it's disgusting to most Americans in this country. As far as I'm concerned, you can go home and never come back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Okay. So, there's that. There's a little bit of a mixed bag, but I think a dwindling number of Republicans willing to push back. Let's start with Lindsey Graham, because I think this is a fascinating story. After Trump had a blow up with Zelenskyy the last time and Trump called him a dictator, essentially, he spoke with Lindsey Graham, and apparently had a very encouraging conversation. Now today, here's what Lindsey Graham is saying about Zelenskyy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: I've never been more proud of President Trump for showing the American people and the world you don't trifle with this man.
Zelenskyy felt like he needed to bait Trump in the Oval Office. J.D. was awesome. We want to help you, but we're going to be respected.
So, I think Moscow's probably more afraid of Trump than ever. I hope the Chinese are, and I hope the Iranians are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Quite a turnabout. It seems like he got to talking to you after the last conversation.
NINAN: In a huge way. But I also think when you're looking at all the world leaders that have come through, from Macron to Netanyahu to Starmer, there's always been a way that they've approached. You're deferential, you don't challenge. Zelenskyy showed up wearing what he wanted to wear. He showed up challenging, toe to toe. Trump, that's not a style they're used to in the Oval Office, let alone with Donald Trump.
What's happened after this, Abby, tonight, in real time, yes, tomorrow, there are supposed to be a lot of leaders from around Europe gathering together in London to talk about, once there was some sort of a peace deal in with Ukraine, how do we counter and support? Do we send troops from our country? How do we help fund Ukraine and the global security pact in Europe? I am hearing from one source that there are more leaders showing up to this meeting than were actually expected to show up. People have watched this. They really understand it and they've taken note.
PHILLIP: There was one European official who said it now it's time for a new leader of the free world. But my question to you is, what's wrong with that at this point? I mean, is it time for Europe to just say, you know what, we got this?
VINDMAN: I think that's what's going to happen. I think this was clearly a moment of clarity that now the European leaders understand that the U.S. is completely unreliable.
[22:25:07]
I mean, we're facing great dangers here now. There is nobody that's going to say no to Trump anywhere in the Republican establishment. There are one or two congressmen that are actually saying this is absurd, what happened in the Oval Office. This is not what happens. This is not how you treat allies. But by and large, we have nobody that's going to face up to him.
So, what we are seeing is a break from our allies. They're now going to -- you could argue that some of this is overdue. We carried the burden of European security for a long time. The Europeans haven't invested enough. They're already moving in this direction. Ever since 2022, they were upping the ante on their contribution. Now, it's a clean break. Our allies won't trust us to be there for them. They're going to go ahead and double down on the resources they need to support themselves and to support Ukraine.
Really, the question is, you know, who runs out of steam first, the Russians with their $2 trillion dollar economy, taking thousands of losses a week, 1,500 a day, or the Europeans? The Europeans with resolve, they could support Ukraine. It's going to take a little bit of time for them to ramp up their military industrial complex as the U.S. winds down. I don't see that breaking point because, you know, the narrative is just false. The Russians are not making gains. They're brittle, they're weak, as long as the U.S. doesn't lift sanctions, I think the fact is it's going to play out as expected.
PHILLIP: So, what about a scenario in which there is some peace deal that can be struck, but it comes at a cost that Zelenskyy has to step down? Should he accept that?
VINDMAN: He would accept it. I mean, he's on the record as saying that. I think the fact is they are hungry for peace. There is probably -- there is nobody more interested in peace, far more interested than Donald Trump that wants to score some points, that he's a peacemaker and get himself that Noble Piece Prize that has been anchored for.
These guys actually want peace. Why because their civilian population has been suffering. The military has been suffering and they're willing to compromise. They're not going to go ahead and give that away as just straight up before the negotiation start. They're looking for bargaining chips. They're looking to alleviate the pain for as many of their people as possible. But they're not going to just throw it away.
PHILLIP: So, Republican con Congressman Don Bacon says it's a bad day for American foreign policy. Mike Lawler says, missed opportunity for both the United States and for Ukraine. Sadly, the only winner of today is Vladimir Putin.
I ask this all the time. I mean, what's to stop Putin from just icing Ukraine out of the good graces of the United States and then taking the whole thing?
SEAT: Well, that's what he's been trying to do. And I disagree with everything that the lieutenant colonel has been saying. You know, I'm just some simple Indiana boy, but when I watched this event today, I want to know why our ally is allowed to disrespect the United States of America, the leader, the current leader of this free world.
VINDMAN: J.D. Vance owes Zelenskyy an apology. President Trump owes Zelenskyy an apology for the way he was treated.
SEAT: For what?
VINDMAN: I demand it.
SEAT: What?
VINDMAN: I demand that they give him an apology.
(CROSSTALKS)
SEAT: U.N. Resolution number two --
VINDMAN: If you're going to go ahead and say preposterous things like Zelenskyy owes an apology for being attacked, I'm going to go ahead and say something outrageous. Actually, I'm going to go --
SEAT: If the price of -- you say that Ukraine wants peace.
VINDMAN: I think J.D. Vance should resign. How about that? We're just going to go throw crazy stuff into the air.
SEAT: If you say Ukraine wants peace. If Zelenskyy wanted peace, then he would have kept his mouth shut.
BOYKIN: What?
VINDMAN: He did until there were lies.
BOYKIN: What? What was the lie?
(CROSSTALKS)
ABDUL: That's not what he was responding to. That's not what he was responding to.
SEAT: No one said that. No one said that.
ABDUL: Guys, you're hearing J.D. Vance talking about diplomacy in the moment of Donald Trump.
PHILLIP: We can't all talk at the same time. So, let's just try to have one person talking at a time.
SEAT: You can't give Trump a day, can you?
PHILLIP: Pete, just a second, because, look, the question now is why is it that the only thing that matters in this high stakes game of life and death and global diplomacy is whether or not you say, I apologize, thank you, dear leader? Like why is that the only thing that matters to you? Because that's the only thing that you've mentioned thus far. Why is that the thing that rises above the reality that there is a deal that needs to be struck and all parties involved need to be adults in the room?
SEAT: Well, there are others who think the only thing that matters is us provoking Russia through our words by constantly saying Putin is a dictator, an aggressor. I agree with that. But I also agree that maybe you need to hold your rhetorical fire to get someone to the table to negotiate an end. I mean, it's not that hard.
PHILLIP: That's a fair point. Hold the fire on Putin, I mean, is that worth it if at the end of the day it comes to peace?
BOYKIN: I mean, we've seen in history that Putin doesn't care whether we hold fire on him or we attack him.
[22:30:03]
He's going to do what he wants to do regardless, so I don't think that's an effective strategy. But I think the fundamental problem is that Donald Trump doesn't understand American power. I mean, we're a superpower. We have the ability to wipe out Ukraine if we want. And so does Russia, by the way.
But superpowers, understand that power comes with great responsibility. And part of that responsibility is you can't just be the bully in the room. You have to figure out a way to work with other people, including your allies. Donald Trump doesn't think that. He thinks that everybody has to kiss his ring -- Canada, Mexico, Panama, Colombia, Ukraine. Everyone must kiss his ring in order to get what they want from the United States.
That's a recipe for long-term disaster. You may be able to get what you want in the short term. But American foreign policy in the 20th century, when we tried to impose our will on everyone, led to disaster after disaster after disaster after terrorist attack after terrorist attack. It will come and bite us in the in the in the A.S.S. if we do that.
NINAN: You know, one of the things Donald Trump, people voted him in because they know that he is able to do things in a different way that other presidents just would never consider doing. This is a classic example of what that is like.
But when you look at the Reagan National Defense Survey conducted a survey and asked Americans How do you view Russia? Eighty percent of them actually view Russia as a threat. When you now poll that same community of Americans and you ask them, what do you think about the Ukraine war?
There has been an uptick of Americans, both Democrats and Republicans, saying they do want this war to end. But they know that this is a threat. Americans don't want to see the threat being brought here to the United States. And they understand this.
You know, I was looking over some -- you've got your new book out. I want to, an O.G. Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev once said, "We will take America without firing a single shot. We do not have to invade the U.S. We will destroy you from within." That was 1956. There was Soviet Union, right? But there is history here. And there are decades of this, of understanding of where the Russians stand.
ABDUL: A couple of points. About the -- whether or not Putin, the goal was just to take the whole thing. Well, he can't. With what army can he do that? There are already talks about how the Russians are struggling now. He doesn't have an army to run roughshod over Europe.
PHILLIP: I guess the thing is, no, I'm talking about the whole of Ukraine, not the whole of Europe.
ABDUL: I don't even think he has the army to do that.
PHILLIP: And the reason I say that is because if we turn off the spigot, okay? And then we also go to the table with Putin and say, Ukraine, they're not really our allies anymore. The question I'm asking is, if you're from a negotiating -- if you're Vladimir Putin, you would just say, okay, it's only a matter of time. I don't even have to deal with Zelenskyy. I can just wait.
ABDUL: I think because of what's, I think because of how long this war has been going on, and believe it or not, the Russians probably want this war to end. I think that Putin will actually be more amenable to a deal, but this is the first time that we've had a conversation with him at all, I believe since the war began.
The point about Lindsey Graham and I think that we should not ignore this point about Lindsey Graham, he has been one of the most vocal supporters of Ukraine. Over and over again, he's been over to Ukraine. He's met with Zelenskyy a number of times. He said that he had a conversation with Zelenskyy this morning, and he told him, this is not a negotiating.
Don't take the bait. The media is going to try to bait you. Don't take the bait. And he said that he was disappointed in what he saw from Zelenskyy. And this was from somebody who has supported Ukraine over and over again.
PHILLIP: One of John McCain's former aides, Mark Salter, wrote this on Twitter, "I haven't referred to John McCain in my previous criticism of Lindsey, but I will tonight. John would be ashamed of you, Lindsey. I doubt he'd ever speak to you again. You've betrayed everything he believed in."
So, that's the reaction from somebody who knew. Those two men who were once very good friends, Reena Ninan, Alexander Vindman, thank you both very much for joining us. Lieutenant Colonel Vindman's new book, "The Folly of Realism, How the West Deceived Itself, about Russia and Betrayed Ukraine", it is out right now.
And everyone else, stick with me, because coming up next, we have so much more to talk about on this topic, including how a wardrobe choice apparently started this meeting off on the very wrong foot. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:38:38
PHILLIP: Lights, camera, chaos. It's the formula for reality television, and it is also the script that Donald Trump seemed intent on following today in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Look at you, you're all dressed up today.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: Yes, I had to.
UNKNOWN: Very close.
TRUMP: Look at that.
ZELENSKYY: How are you, Mr. President?
TRUMP: He's all dressed up today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: But what may have looked and sounded like a joke was not a joke at all. A U.S. official tells CNN that the second Ukraine president stepped out of that armored vehicle wearing his actual signature military garb that Trump would not be able to see past Zelenskyy uniform. In the Oval Office, it was clear that the pair had hit a sartorial sticking point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN GLENN, "REAL AMERICA'S VOICE" COMMENTATOR: Why don't you wear a suit? Why don't you wear a suit? You're the highest level in this country's office and you refuse to wear a suit. Just want to see -- do you own a suit?
ZELENSKYY: Yeah, yes -- problems.
GLENN: A lot of Americans have problems with you not respecting the security of this office.
ZELENSKYY: I don't have -- I will wear a costume after this war will finish.
GLENN: Okay.
ZELENSKYY: And yes, maybe, one -- maybe something like yours, yes. Maybe something better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Okay, all right. So, the tension had the world turning on every word. Something Donald Trump knew very well, and he turned to the camera and literally said it out loud. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:40:00]
TRUMP: All right. I think we've seen enough. What do you think? This is -- this is going to be great television, I will say that. We will see what we can do about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Jenna Arnold is at the table with us. Joining us in our fifth seat also is Paul Rieckhoff. He's the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America and an independent national security analyst. You know, not for nothing. I mean, I actually legitimately think that Trump was like, okay, that's enough of this. Time to close up shop. J.D. Vance seemed very happy about the situation.
But the fact that this thing about what Zelenskyy was wearing became an issue. Let's do a little bit of a flashback. Here is J.D. Vance tweeting about this in 2023 and he says, "Look, I know Schumer changed the dress code, but letting someone in the Senate chamber dress like this really crosses the line." It is amazing to me that this is even a conversation that we are having.
JENNA ARNOLD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: That's right. And it is just a total fall into the Trump reality television show -- that was his plan from the beginning. He is a top marketing. I would say he would run a phenomenal agency, a social media agency, as well.
But the fact that this is what continues to get airwaves in real estate in our minds when it comes to the fact that we are now regressing back to another chapter in the Cold War is so stunning to us. Churchill came to the White House dooring World War II, in his military garb, we have seen our elected officials go to post-natural disaster zones wearing windbreakers. Zelenskyy is in the middle of a war, and it is fully appropriate.
PHILLIP: I actually think that Churchill analogy, first of all, it's been made before. And when the war started, a lot of people said that he was channeling a sort of Churchillian aesthetic by basically signaling to his people as their commander-in-chief that they were in a war, right? And now, it's become, I think for the right, a symbol that he is cosplaying as a military hero when he's not.
PAUL RIECKHOFF, FOUNDER AND CEO, INDEPENDENT VETERANS OF AMERICA: Well, let's talk about what's most important. That was disgraceful, disgusting, disrespectful, dangerous and bad for not just Ukraine, but bad for American national security. It felt un-American. It felt traitorous. I've never seen a reaction from veterans of all backgrounds like I have in the last couple of hours to that disgusting demoralizing display.
So, I don't even want to focus too much on what was worn. I want to focus on what was -- what was said and what happened. And that was a real low point for American leadership. And right now, it also, importantly, to focus on, makes America less safe. Our allies are less supportive. We have more people around the world
who hate us. And America, in my view, hasn't been this isolated since I and many others invaded Iraq. And I think that's what we have to focus on, is that America is less safe today because of that.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
ABDUL: I don't think people care about the clothes. This is something that people have talked about with Zelenskyy since the start of the war. He's typically worn the military fatigue, and people have talked about that. Washington, D.C. --
PHILLIP: And just to be clear, I don't want to interrupt you, but please continue. But the reporting is that this was a problem for President Trump, that it set the tone for their meeting, which is why we're talking about it, because it actually had an impact on how they conducted this meeting.
ABDUL: So, the good thing is that everybody saw at the beginning, the conversation, that joking that Donald Trump said, he said he looked nice. I actually thought that Zelenskyy, as opposed to the fatigue, I thought he looked good in what he had on. Donald Trump pointed that out. But it also, in that exchange in the Oval Office, he even joked about the fact and said that I think he looks nice. That's literally what Donald Trump said.
Now, I thought that the reporter's question actually was just absolutely ridiculous. I don't know who the guy is, but you're using --
ARNOLD: It is Marjorie Taylor Greene's boyfriend.
ABDUL: Well, see, you're using your time to ask questions about clothes?
ARNOLD: Yeah, but it just goes to show the shallow currency.
PHILLIP: I think the description of a reporter is a bit of a stretch.
ARNOLD: Yes, exactly. Why he's in the Oval Office to begin with.
PHILLIP: Yeah, on this question of, like, what's happening with the diplomacy playing out publicly in this way, I mean, Donald Trump is a reality TV show producer. But here's Karl Rove saying this was a whole mistake.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL ROVE, FORMER WH DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF, BUSH ADMIN.: This is why diplomacy should never be conducted in public. I'm confident and we now know that for example in World War II there were heated disagreements between Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Stalin and Winston Churchill, but we didn't see them broadcast on TV. This is a mistake to have it broadcast. This was not the moment that should have been televised.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIECKHOFF: It wasn't just a mistake. It was an ambush. I mean, this was a plan. This was a politically calculated ambush from all sides, right? No one would feel comfortable walking into an environment like that from any country, and no one should be treated that way, from the reporter to the greeting to the mocking of his clothes.
[22:45:00]
It was beneath America and beneath the White House to treat a guest in our country and a leader who is actively engaged in combat, who is right now losing his fellow service members, who's losing his women and children, his cities are being bombed. We're talking to him about his clothes, and we're talking to him that way?
It was victim shaming, which is what Trump has been doing to Zelenskyy in Ukraine since before he got elected. It's unacceptable, it's inappropriate, and it's also undermining not just Ukraine, but our own national security.
We are now aligned with the bad guys. Russia is the bad guy, Ukraine is the good guy. And when we continue to attack Ukraine and defend Russia, that puts us in line with the bad guys, which is not where America wants to be.
ARNOLD: Well, it's very clear.
PHILLIP: Is it a flipping, Pete, of the American allegiances? Because that's what it kind of seems like.
SEAT: Well, actually, I want to weigh in on the clothing. I know you're trying to distract us from it, but I do.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. Hold on.
UNKNOWN: Smart and conversational.
PHILLIP: Guys, hang on a second.
SEAT: Hold on. Let me say it.
RIECKHOFF: You came to me so I'm going to respond.
SEAT: But as an alum of the George W. Bush White House, I have an old- fashioned view of this in a pretty hard line. Tie, jacket, no jeans, Oval Office. That's where I stand on this. But if we're going to -- hold on. Hold on.
ARNOLD: Thank you.
SEAT: Can you let me finish?
(CROSSTALK)
RIECKHOFF: That's exactly what I was about to say.
ARNOLD: He didn't even shove in the tea.
ABDUL: Now you know how Zelenskyy felt.
ARNOLD: Well-played.
SEAT: President Zelenskyy, for what he's wearing, then we should also criticize Elon Musk for wearing a hat and a t-shirt in the Oval Office.
BOYKIN: Tell it to Donald Trump and J.D. Vance. So you, I mean --
SEAT: I just did.
BOYKIN: You're being consistent, but the White House isn't being consistent. And they have no credibility to talk about decorum. I mean, the reason why this question was asked is because this so-called reporter from "One America News" was there.
Why was this person even in the room? Why was there a reporter from the Russian news agency, TASS, state media from Russia, in the room in the Oval Office? That's what I'm talking about. I talk about the incompetence of this administration, and yet you can't have the "Associated Press" there because Trump doesn't like them because they won't refer to the Oval Office.
SEAT: I've actually escorted media into the Oval Office.
BOYKIN: So have I, I've done the post-press before.
SEAT: And you know it is absolute chaos when the foreign media is here.
BOYKIN: If you can't control whether the Russian news agency is allowed to come into the Oval Office, one of the most protected spaces in the country, and you don't have the moral credibility or even the intellectual ability to be able to run the White House.
PHILLIP: Pete, I want you to answer the substance of what Paul just said. He said this is victim-blaming, victim--shaming of Ukraine, which is the victim in this whole dynamic. What's your response to that?
SEAT: I just, we talked about this for two segments prior to you coming out here.
UNKNOWN: And I saw it.
SEAT: Yeah, I'm sure you did. And President Zelenskyy was the instigator in this conversation.
RIECKHOFF: You are absolutely wrong.
(CROSSTALK) RIECKHOFF: That wasn't propaganda. He interjected himself. That wasn't propaganda. I am offended by what you say and how you present this entire situation.
SEAT: Really?
RIECKHOFF: I'm an alumni of different countries.
SEAT: You're offended that the United States wants to negotiate and end to the war.
RIECKHOFF: I'm an alumni of the United States Army. That's what I'm an alumni of. And millions of veterans around this country saw that today on our outrage of all background because of the way he was conducted --
SEAT: Millions saw it and saw strength.
RIECKHOFF: -- and because there are people like you who are standing with Putin.
ABDUL: Zelenskyy shouldn't have opened his mouth.
RIECKHOFF: He is our ally in a trench fight.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Paul, Melik, Jenna, please stop talking, okay? Everybody is talking at the same time.
UNKNOWN: I am fine with my statements.
PHILLLIP: Guys, everybody is talking at the same time. That does not work, okay? We cannot hear a word you are saying. I understand there are, you know, a lot of very high emotions about this topic, but please, one at a time, okay? Look, Jenna, I know you were trying to say something, so you can continue.
ARNOLD: Pete, it is imperative that you understand that when -- when they invited Zelenskyy into this space, which was in front of cameras and Marjorie Taylor Greene's boyfriend, that there was a, okay, we are going to be in an open dialogue. We have watched Trump day after day. Yesterday, he had British representatives who he was putting on the spot and also telling them, oh, that's enough, don't continue to talk about that when it was in relation to Canada.
This is a stage, a theatre that he has created. It is an invitation when you ask somebody to sit in that seat. It is bullying at its most shallow capacity. If I found out my seven-year-old son was making fun of somebody for what they were wearing on the playground, we would have some very stern words.
SEAT: I didn't defend the wardrobe. I --
ARNOLD: Later -- hold on a second.
SEAT: I did not say that.
ARNOLD: Hold on a second.
ABDUL: Didn't attack what he had, only --
ARNOLD: Hold on a second.
PHILLIP: Okay, please. Please, one at a time.
ARNOLD: This was absolute bait from J.D. Vance, who was pomp and circumstance, and you owe us this kind of decorum.
[22:50:01]
My background is in foreign policy. I was at the U.N. for years. I understand the theatrics of foreign policy. This was disgusting. We have regressed decades. This is the most significant thing to happen between us and Europe since the fall of the Berlin Wall. And you want to talk about suits. You want to talk about who interrupted who.
ABDUL: Yeah, because --
(CROSSTALK)
ARNOLD: Also, I have a question for you.
ABDUL: Well, I -- you said -- you were the one who said that. You said this. Now, we can talk about the fact that --
ARNOLD: Let me ask you a question.
PHILLIP: Jenna, just a second.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We're going to continue this conversation in just a minute so stay with me. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:55:08]
PHILLIP: The comedians of "Have I Got News for You" are back, and they have some things to say about that tense Oval Office meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY WOOD JR., COMEDIAN: Question off the top. How did Trump greet the Ukrainian president, who is as of right now still America's ally?
AMBER RUFFIN, COMEDIAN: A chest bump?
WOOD JR.: Trump greeted President Zelenskyy with a customary American nagging.
TRUMP: He's all dressed up today. REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): Oh.
WOOD JR.: Bitch (ph), my country is at war.
DAVID FOLEY, COMEDIAN: Traditionally, a diplomatic attire requires a tie that covers your balls. It's just manners people, just manners.
WOOD JR.: And then this is what Trump tore into.
TRUMP: You want me to be tough? I could be tougher than any human being you've ever seen. I'd be so tough.
RUFFIN: You're right, his tie is covering his body.
UNKNOWN: Thank you.
FOLEY: May I say, did you not find that comforting?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Well then, you can catch an all new episode of "Have I Got News for You" tomorrow at 9 P.M., right here on CNN. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". We'll see you tomorrow morning at 10 A.M. with our conversation show "Table for Five". Meanwhile, "Laura Coates Live" starts next.
