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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Soon, Trump's 104 Percent Tariff Hits China In Ominous Escalation; Markets Fall Again After Trump White House Doubles Down On Tariffs; Musk And Trump Trade Adviser Feud Over Tariffs; Acting IRS Commissioner Melanie Krause Tells Staff She Is Resigning; Judge McFadden Says Trump's Steer Decision Crosses Constitutional Lines. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 08, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, the markets give it and the markets take it away. Investors prepare for tariffmageddon.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That's why there will be 104 percent tariffs going into effect on China tonight.
PHILLIP: As President Trump barrels toward a fiscal cliff with China.
Also, all the president's ego. The president's billionaire buddy gets into an old fashioned Twitter fight with the president's economic architect.
Also, a judge levels the playing field by ordering the White House to let the A.P. back into the room where it happens.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Ana Navarro, Shermichael Singleton, Rachel Lindsay, and an economic debate.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about. How many tariffs are too many tariffs? For the markets, they're already trying to tap out of the tariff tit-for-tat. Again, today, investors wanted relief from a promised 104 percent tariff on Chinese imports. You heard that right, 104 percent. They were hoping that this was just a phase. It's not a phase.
Trace the Dow's trajectory, and it's a glimpse at hope dashed. The market opened higher and then Trump and the White House press secretary said the hikes are going forward. The Trump deputy chief of staff did more of the same on television. And you can see the trend lines of unhappiness there tonight. Trump says it's all worth it, and by his attempt at logic, it's really not that much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: And I do think that the war with the world, which is not a war at all, because they're all coming here thinking 104 percent.
Now, it sounds ridiculous, but they charged just for many items 100 percent, 125 percent. Many countries have. They've ripped us off left and right. But now it's our turn to do the ripping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: His administration insists that the market's Helter Skelter jitters are not reasoned to panic. Insiders told Politico that they knew that this was coming. They are feeling like everything is going according to plan.
Well, Democrats have a different take, that Trump's team is basically overseeing the end of life care for the modern economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): I just talked to one of the senior folks in Wall Street and you describe today's market as a good day in hospice.
You know, there are no good days in hospice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: We are joined by economic experts, Steven Moore, former Trump economics adviser, and the author of the Trump Economic Miracle, also with us, Sheelah Kolhatkar, a staff writer for the New Yorker. And, Sheelah, apologies for butchering your last name there, but you'll correct me the next time.
Steven, I do want to start with you because 104 percent tariffs on Chinese goods going into effect at the stroke of midnight. Really?
STEVE MOORE, FORMER TRUMP ECONOMICS ADVISER: Yes. No, you got the story right, that in the -- for the first time in about four or five days, I finally saw some green on the board with the -- in the morning, the stocks went up --
PHILLIP: Very briefly.
MOORE: -- about a thousand points. And then, of course, Trump -- you're right, Trump announced this very steep tariff on China. And then a lot of what the market gave, it took away.
I'd say a couple things. Number one, Trump did campaign on tariffs, remember? I mean, he said tariffs are my favorite word. So, the American voters knew what they were going to get. By the way, I'm not a huge fan of tariffs. Trump knows that. But I do think that he, there's a truism in what Trump is saying, which is this, we have the lowest tariffs in the world. That's just a fact. And all these other countries have much higher tariffs than on, on our products, than we impose on theirs.
And Trump is just basically saying, let's have a level playing field. And that's -- I think everybody would agree that's reasonable. These countries should reduce their terrorists. And Trump is kind of flexing our economic muscle because everybody -- every country has to trade with the United States. He's saying, bring your terrorists down and we'll bring our tariffs down.
PHILLIP: Steven, I mean, you know, you know the president very well. Do you think that he wants lower tariffs as the end goal or does he want also a regime in which the United States just brings in this income?
[22:05:10]
And for a lot of countries, maybe he might negotiate some lower tariffs for some countries, but for other countries, he just wants the money.
MOORE: Well, I would separate the world in kind of two categories. There is China and there's the rest of the world. And I think we'd all agree, China is a very hostile nation to the United States. They don't play by the rules. By the way, this is the only -- about the only issue in the country that almost all Americans agree that China is a real menace in the world.
And so I'm in favor of getting tough with China with the rest of the world. I had a piece in The Wall Street Journal this morning that basically recalled the fact that at a G7 meeting in 2018, Donald Trump, in front of all the world leaders, they were bitching about his terrorists. He said, okay, I'll make a deal with you all. We all go to zero on our tariffs. You know what, the Europeans and the Brits rattled out as fast as they could. So, we want -- no, in the end of the day, Trump wants freer trade and fairer trade.
PHILLIP: Sheelah, your thoughts?
SHEELAH KOLHATKAR, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: Well, I have a really big question, which is what is motivating this sudden and very drastic move on President Trump's part? Does he just like tariffs, which we know he does. It creates a lot of noise. He gets a lot of attention. He can talk tough.
The media kind of goes crazy. Or does he have a grand vision for the American economy, and does he see it as this sort of transformed place where American workers and manufacturing are the center? It is not a financialized sort of Wall Street-driven economy. And, you know, if it's the second one, that's a really intriguing idea. I'd like to know more about that. But it's going to take a lot of hard work to get that to that. PHILLIP: Yes. The underlying question of like, okay, so what does the economy look like, let me play two different answers to that question, both coming from inside the Trump administration. One comes from Howard Lutnick and the other comes from President Trump. And take a listen and see what you think.
Okay, we will play that a little bit later. But what we -- I think what is going on here is that Trump and Lutnick are essentially on different pages about whether or not this economy is going to be reproducing like a manufacturing economy, whether they want just Americans to be in factories, or not?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think to your -- I do think there is some belief that these tariffs will stimulate manufacturing in the United States could take on many forms. I don't think we're ever going to go back to the industrial revolution or whatever. But, you know, I think it's reasonable to assume that if it's cheaper to make things in the United States and sell them to Americans, people -- some people will do that. And they've already announced like a trillion dollars worth of investments more than Joe Biden had in his four years.
I think, to your point about, which is it, well, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think he does love tariffs. He's always loved tariffs. He has loved tariffs for 40 years. But at the same time, they have been pretty clear, they see this as a long-term restructuring of the global trade order, and they see it as some kind of a revolution inside the United States that puts the working class at the center of our economy instead of, you know, Wall Street. And that's kind of how he ran his campaign, and, frankly, that's the coalition that he put together to win.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But, Steve, I've known you forever. You've advised practically every Republican nominee and president in my lifetime here, and you've always been a free trader and anti-tariff. So, you know, I hear you kind of like trying to navigate, not condemning this, but like so many other Republicans, including people like Marco Rubio and others in the Senate and in Congress who are now bending themselves into pretzel shapes, I mean, it's like this sudden change that's a little hard for me to understand.
I also -- look, this week I think has been a disaster and part of it is because they based -- well, the messaging has been bad, right? It's been all over the place and there's been a lot of conflict within the administration, but also the policy is bad. And what they -- the math they based it on, according to mathematicians who have looked at the formula that they printed out on a big poster and put out is wrong. You know, they've imposed tariffs on penguins. They haven't imposed tariffs on Russia. I mean, it just -- it has made absolutely no sense.
And when you hear people who love Donald Trump, supported Donald Trump, gave him money, people like Ken Langone, Home Depot, people like Bill Ackman, people who have gone -- you know, gotten into fights for months --
JENNINGS: Can we correct the Russian the problem because we're not trading with Russia. They have sanctions.
PHILLIP: We do $3.5 billion in --
JENNINGS: We have sanctions on Russia.
PHILLIP: Yes, but I know we --
JENNINGS: In North Korea and --
PHILLIP: If the number is not zero, what we do with Russia, the number is zero on the island with the penguins.
A. NAVARRO: Yes. We trade more with Russia than we do with Heard and McDonald's.
JENNINGS: The issue with the islands is that China can use those small countries as opposed to --
PHILLIP: The island doesn't have any humans on it.
[22:10:00]
JENNINGS: Also, these penguins, they dress like elitist. They had it coming. I just want to point out,
PHILLIP: I mean, I don't think --
JENNINGS: There's a reason they were on there. I'm just saying.
PHILLIP: Well, I don't think --
JENNINGS: I think the Russian thing has been overstated.
PHILLIP: I don't think that you throw zero tariffs on Russia and then massive tariffs on other countries that are basically doing almost no trade with the United States.
MOORE: I think that there is something to what you say. I don't think this has been handled that well. And you're right, the markets have reacted pretty ferociously against this. But I will say that --
A. NAVARRO: And the math has been erroneous, the mathematical formula.
MOORE: Scott made an important point just a few minutes ago. This is the new Republican Party, whether you like it or not. I mean, Trump won because he won blue collar union voters. And he and the Republicans view that as the base of the party now. And it's different. It's different than when Reagan won, where it was mostly, you know, wealthy people. Now, the wealthy people vote Democratic and middle class people are generally voting Republican.
And so this is a policy position that's actually fairly popular with Americans. I'm -- you're right.
PHILLIP: Which part of it?
MOORE: I'm a free trader.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I'm sorry, Steve. But which part do you think is popular? Because I don't think that's true.
MOORE: Well, let me just say this. Even though Trump knows I'm a free trade guy and he knows that I oftentimes oppose these policies, he still calls on me. He likes to get different opinions from different people. And at the end of the day, I'm going to predict this has been a rough period, no question, but Trump is a winner. He's a master negotiator. I think at the end of the day, you're going to have these countries calling him up on the phone one by one and making a deal with him. It's going to be good for the American people.
PHILLIP: So, what's going to happen to the U.S. economy in the meantime?
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Steven made the point talking about working class voters, and now the Republican Party is more multiracial and working class compared to years before.
And when you look at it from the perspective of people in the Rust Belt, what have they seen since the early nineties as a result of free trade? 5 million jobs over two decades eliminated, 90 good paying manufacturing jobs by the way. 90,000 factories closed. That's an estimate. Then you move forward to the early 2000, increased imports with China, known as a China shock. You're aware of this, even have written about it. That also eliminated 2 million additional jobs. So, you're talking about over 2.5 decades, about 7 to 10 million jobs eliminated good paying jobs for blue collar people. They completely feel ignored. They completely feel forgotten.
And so Donald Trump focusing on trying to level set, to your point, and bring back some level of manufacturing, even if it's modernized, not going back to the 80s or 90s, I think is a good thing.
PHILLIP: Even if it's robots?
SINGLETON: they could potentially benefit those working class people.
PHILLIP: What about -- I mean, even if it's robots? I mean, if it's robots doing these jobs, then what's the point?
SINGLETON: Abby, chip manufacturing, you got to bring some of that back to the United States.
PHILLIP: I know. I get that.
SINGLETON: We're not at a place where machines can repair themselves when they're damaged. You need to have a skilled workforce being able to take care of those things.
PHILLIP: But you understand my point, Shermichael, is that we are in increasingly about to be in an economy where a lot of these jobs that he wants to bring back are not going to be done by humans. Maybe there will be one or two overseeing the robots but they've acknowledged that. Bessent and Howard Lutnick have both said that over the last few days.
SINGLETON: Yes, automation --
PHILLIP: That automation, A.I., robots are going to replace most humans in those jobs.
SINGLETON: Yes. That's not just a problem for the United States. That's a global --
PHILLIP: So, what is the formula for manufacturing renaissance in that scenario?
SINGLETON: Sure. That's a global issue. That's not just an issue that the United States singularly has to face. And I would say, at some point, we probably need to start preparing our workforce to be prepared for a modernized world. We haven't done that in two or three decades.
PHILLIP: I guess the question is how does this --
SINGLETON: And to have some conversations about returning some jobs to people while we still can, I think is a positive thing.
PHILLIP: Think that's fine.
A. NAVARRO: But that obviates what that -- what we're not talking about is the incredible pain that is going to be felt precisely by the blue collar people, right, who are going to go to the grocery store, because we're focusing on the markets and we're focusing on Steven Portnoy having lost $20 million and the billions of dollars that Jeff Bezos has lost, and Elon Musk and all of that.
The thing is, these rich people can say, don't panic and don't sell because they've got more millions that they can live off. But the person who's going to go buy the car, or the person who's buying clothing from China, or the person who's going to the grocery store and buy the bananas from Ecuador and the avocados from Mexico and the limes from Mexico, they're going to see that price increase tomorrow.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Let me just play -- hang on a second. Let me --
A. NAVARRO: Do you understand that there are people who cannot endure short-term pain?
SINGLETON: Of course. But, you know what, let me just go through a couple points. In 1987, we talked about the S&P falling 10 percent. We've only seen this four times. In 1987, it occurred, we saw a bounce back of 102 percent, November 2008, a bounce back of 105 percent, in 2020, a bounce back of 94 percent. It recovers and it recovers stronger than it was before. That is absolutely --
A. NAVARRO: Shermichael, none of those cases that you just cited, is it a manmade crisis?
[22:15:00]
This is created by one person, Donald Trump. This isn't COVID. This isn't a financial bubble. This is all manufactured, created, drummed up by this insane man who is our president on.
PHILLIP: Let me ask. I mean, Shermichael, are you suggesting that just because markets eventually recover from downturns that it's --
SINGLETON: I'm paying right now. I mean --
PHILLIP: No. But are you --
MOORE: I'm not saying that the knife --
PHILLIP: But are you suggesting that it's okay to force a downturn for that reason? I'm just -- because people are still going to lose money. They're still going to lose jobs, they're still going to lose their livelihoods, even when a year from now, the market goes back up. That's --
SINGLETON: Why didn't we ask any of these questions for 20 years when millions of Americans were losing their jobs all across the country? Nobody cared to think well about these families, what about the downturn and the impacts on them and generations to come? They didn't say anything.
PHILLIP: I think that's a great.
SINGLETON: And now all of a sudden we're obviating (ph) here pretending as if this is the worst thing that has ever happened in the history of American finances. That's not the case.
PHILLIP: This is an -- that's an important political argument. But -- and, look, Steve, you can weigh in here, maybe I'm wrong, when you talk about jobs being lost in those industries, that's a real thing. But also the United States is experiencing right now one of the lowest periods of unemployment ever, okay? And when some jobs are lost in some industries, they are gained.
In other industries, there's been a shift in the type of labor that the United States has. So, you're making it sound like when those jobs are lost, that it just disappears and nobody does anything. So, I've seen is a shift, and some people don't like that shift, which is totally fine and appropriate to address, but it's not like we're living in a world in which 2 million people are just like floating around doing nothing.
JENNINGS: I think there are a lot of people, I think a lot of young men are floating around in communities all over this country that do nothing, that live in their parents' basement and basically aimless and chipless get it, and they need to be giving something to do.
PHILLIP: I get it. My point is only that you're suggesting that everybody's fine with the jobs disappearing and nothing replacing them, and things have replaced them.
SINGLETON: I think that's a good point. You are going to see some jobs go away. New jobs are bound. I don't disagree with that. But in a lot of those places, Abby, that did not occur. There was a promise that a lot of new jobs would come. You would have new skills that you would need to fulfill those new jobs. It didn't occur, Abby.
PHILLIP: I get it. The other side of this has to be some kind of manufacturing strategy, which we have not seen yet. So --
MOORE: We want to have the most productive manufacturing sectors in the world. But I tend to agree with you a little bit. Look, robotics is coming. It's -- within ten years, factories will be -- everything is going to be built. It's happening quickly. We need to concentrate as a nation on making sure that we lead in the 21st century you know, whether it's technology, pharmaceuticals, A.I., all of those things. Those are the ones that matter most.
PHILLIP: We have used up all of our time for this segment. All right, more to come.
Coming up next, two of Trump's closest advisers are publicly feuding. Why Elon Musk calls Peter Navarro, a moron and dumber than a sack of bricks. So, who is ultimately keeping the president's ear in all of this?
Plus, breaking tonight, a judge rules that the White House's ban of the Associated Press is unconstitutional. A special guest is going to join us at the table for that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Sometimes life is middle school, so it makes sense that two of the most high-profile figures in your government are engaging in a social media version of I'm rubber and your glue. Elon Musk believes, quote, Peter Navarro is truly a moron and that Trump's top economist, quote, is dumber than a sack of bricks. Navarro reduced Musk's resume down to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR COUNSELOR: When it comes to tariffs and trade, we all understand in the White House and the American people understand that Elon's a car manufacturer, but he's not a car manufacturer. He is a car assembler.
The thing that's, I think important about Elon to understand, he sells cars. That's what he does.
Elon, when he is in his DOGE lane, is great, but we understand what's going on here. We just have to understand, Elon sells cars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So --
A. NAVARRO: Before we even get started with this, I need to make it clear. I have no relationship to this match, okay? I don't know him. I don't like him. I think he's full of hot air and we are not related. Go ahead, Abby.
PHILLIP: Okay, all right. I don't know that anybody thought that Ana Navarro was related to Peter Navarro, but now you know.
So, what is the White House doing about all of this? Well, apparently they are just saying let them fight in the sandbox.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: These are obviously two individuals who have very different views on trade and on tariffs. Boys will be boys and we will let their public sparring continue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Oh boy. Okay. So, here we go. Peter Navarro does not have a lot of friends, but he did go to prison for Donald Trump, so that counts for a lot.
But one of the reasons that this tension exists is because Navarro is the biggest spokesperson for these tariffs. He's the biggest spokesperson. He also, I have to remind you, literally made up a quote from -- well, made up an economist and then quoted that made up economist in his book where he defends tariffs.
So, yes, I mean, Steve, you know --
A. NAVARRO: The economist that he made up is an anagram of Navarro, Ron Vera.
PHILLIP: So, Steve you know him.
MOORE: Yes, I know Peter better and I know --
PHILLIP: I take you don't like each other that much. I mean, is that a stretch?
MOORE: I get along with everyone, you know that. But, listen, Trump, you know, when you watch that little infighting that's going on, it reminds me of Abraham Lincoln and his team of rivals.
[22:25:05]
He had people at the table who took --
A. NAVARRO: Peter Navarro and Elon Musk remind you of Abraham Lincoln?
MOORE: Well, yes. But Elon Musk is probably the greatest --
A. NAVARRO: Okay. I must defend Abraham Lincoln on this. MNOORE: He's the greatest entrepreneur in world history. But I'm going to side on this one with Elon Musk. I mean, Elon Musk is right, that, you know, tariffs are taxes. They can hurt the economy. We've got to have the most productive sector of the economy. But it's also true that, you know, Peter Navarro, well, figuratively took a bullet for Donald Trump.
He went to jail for Donald Trump. And that's an amazing act of heroism, in my opinion, to do that rather than rat on what, you know, the president said in secret meetings. So, I have some admiration for Peter, and I think it's just perfectly fine that you have this infighting going on and Trump ultimately will make the decision.
JENNINGS: I didn't like that he was denigrating what is actually a really good American manufacturing success story. The original insult was that Teslas are made of all these foreign components. In fact, Teslas are the most American-made car.
PHILLIP: Yes, that's true. We have the chart, I mean, to prove your point. I mean, yes. They rank basically at the top on all these different metrics for domestic manufacturing. But Elon is still concerned about the tariffs.
JENNINGS: So, so the administration is always talking about, hey, we got to make more stuff here. Let's make things in America. Let's have American-made, you know, cars. Well, Elon is actually doing it, and then your guy goes out, Navarro, and craps all over him and lies about the fact that he's actually making cars in America.
MOORE: And he's making EVs and all the liberals --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: But what does it say to you that Elon Musk stands to benefit comparatively to his competitors? Because he does make his cars here, by and large, and he still thinks this is a stupid policy.
SINGLETON: I mean, look I think Elon is right to be concerned about supply chain disruptions. And there have been a lot of people, even on the right, that have begged the president to be more strategic in his targeting of tariffs, maybe focusing on key imports or maybe having a greater focus on China in particular compared to the E.U. or some of our friendlier friends across the globe. And so in that regard, I think Elon is right.
I get Navarro's points. I've watched a lot of his interviews on Fox News talking about how he really wants to focus on taking care of blue collar workers. I don't think you're going to find anybody who would disagree with that, but I do think we have to be careful with how long this pain lasts because something you said, Ana, we certainly don't want eight months, nine months down the line, we're already in a fragile economic condition, what would that toll be on working class people? Probably not great.
So, I would probably side on the behest of Elon Musk, if I were President Trump. A. NAVARRO: Okay. So, Elon -- so Peter Navarro was loyal to Donald Trump. Okay. Then send him as an ambassador to Risotto (ph), maybe to the Heard at McDonald Islands to go be with the penguins. That would be a great place for him to go.
Look, I think the only person that can get away with this kind of infighting, public infighting, like this is Elon Musk. I can't imagine Donald Trump and the White House being okay with Pete Hegseth and Marco Rubio lobbying insults the way that these two have been doing all day, and it leads, it contributes to the lack of consumer confidence. It contributes to the confusion. It contributes to the conflicting messaging.
But at the end of the day, Peter Navarro is espousing the positions that Donald Trump holds. Donald Trump has been talking about tariffs for 30-plus years. And so, in a way, it's almost Elon Musk insulting Peter Navarro because he can't insult Donald Trump dumber than a bag of bricks. And I apologize to the bricks.
PHILLIP: And the other person, Shermichael, who is getting caught in some of the crosshairs here is Howard Lutnick. He's been out everywhere also defending the president. But according to the reporting in Politico, it's an exasperation compounded by recent television appearances. This is what's happening in the White House. They say that suggests a lack of understanding even of the basics of how tariffs and the economy work. He's also made multiple points that have gotten in front of the president on announcements contradicting his messaging. So, Lutnick is now also at the center of this tension,
KOLHATKAR: I think these little schoolyard fights give us insight into why the Trump administration, and particularly this tariff rollout has been so dysfunctional because he has these very different factions advising him. And they're completely at odds with one another. You have Elon Musk and the techno capitalists who have this, you know, free trade fantasy, small government, and then you have Navarro who's a protectionist and has this almost medieval view of a global economy. And those are the two messages being fed into the president. And that's why we are seeing this whipsaw.
JENNINGS: The one name we haven't even mentioned at the table, is the best spokesman for the administration, Bessent, the treasury secretary,
PHILLIP: I don't know that everybody would agree with you on that. And he had an incredibly rough Friday, especially, on this tariff issue.
[22:30:00]
JENNINGS: Oh, I think -- I think the White House has put a lot of stock in Bessent, and I think when he talks, the markets listen. And I think the next order of business here is not just to say 70 people called. It's to say --
PHILLIP: Who are they?
JENNINGS: And -- and we're going to go ahead and make an announcement about progress with one of them. Pick one. But I think --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean Scott Bessent's job would be a lot easier if he wasn't then contradicted several hours later by the White House. Like, I mean, the White House literally went out and contradicted him, like, six hours after he spoke.
MOORE: Everybody's nervous about the stock market right now, and I just will say one positive thing on the way out. When Donald -- Donald Trump was president for four years, we had a booming stock market.
The Nasdaq was up 150 percent. The S and P 500 was up 75 percent and the Dow was up 60 percent. Yeah, what I'm saying is this guy knows what he's doing, knows financial markets. It is going to come back better than ever before.
NAVARRO: He had a very different team around him --
MOORE: Well, that's true. That's true.
NAVARRO: -- in term one. He had a very, very different --
MOORE: But he did it once, he'll do it again, that's my --
PHILLIP: He didn't slap --
MOORE: And I'm sticking with that.
PHILLIP: -- he didn't slap 104 percent tariff.
NAVARRO: Canadian tourists are canceling their trips to America.
PHILLIP: A four percent tariffs on China the first time around did not happen. Okay. Sheila, Steve, thank you.
MOORE: Thank you.
PHILLIP: Very much for joining us. Everyone else, hang on. Breaking news tonight. There is internal chaos unfolding at the IRS as the acting commissioner quits over fears that providing sensitive taxpayer information to DHS could be illegal. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:36:06]
PHILLIP: Breaking news tonight. The country's top auditor is out. The acting IRS commissioner, Melanie Krause, told her staff today that she is resigning. This is happening in tandem with the agency's resistance to a White House want.
Multiple senior career IRS officials said no when they were asked to share sensitive tax data with Homeland Security officials over fears that doing so would break the law. Now, that data deal did eventually get signed, but, by the treasury secretary. Rachel Lindsay is with us now at the table. Now that Krause is out,
Trump will need to appoint his third acting IRS commissioner since being inaugurated. It's pretty amazing, but it also, I think, raises a lot of questions about the privacy of tax data at this point.
RACHEL LINDSAY, PODCAST CO-HOST, "THE HIGHER LEARNING": No, absolutely. It's a dangerous slope. I mean, the IRS exists to collect taxes, to enforce tax laws and for auditing. It doesn't exist as a place to collect personal information of taxpayers in order to have a witch hunt to go after whoever it is that you want.
And since the beginning of Trump taking over -- the administration taking over, there's been a lot of chaos when it comes to this agency. And so, we're continuing to see that fallout as the people that do have the knowledge and do have the experience are currently leaving because of the reported chaos that's there.
And the DOGE employees that are coming in demanding access to IRS, I mean, to taxpayers' information when IRS employees who are already there don't even -- aren't even privy to that type of information.
PHILLIP: The reporting from CNN tonight is that in a recent video call, DHS officials told IRS officials they needed access to their data to help them locate up to seven million suspected undocumented immigrants.
It's an eye popping figure that shocked IRS employees according to a source with knowledge. I mean, Scott, we talked a lot about going after criminals. I don't think anybody disagrees with that. Seven million means that they're not just going after criminals.
JENNINGS: Well, they're going after people who are in the country illegally, right?
PHILLIP: Yeah -- no. But I'm saying the criminals, this is a much bigger universe.
JENNINGS: Doesn't that make you a criminal?
PHILLIP: No. It doesn't.
JENNINGS: To come -- to come across the border illegally?
PHILLIP: Coming into the country illegally is a civil offense. It's not a criminal offense.
JENNINGS: Okay. If you come into the country illegally, here's the message. We're going to find you and send you back. I mean, I'm sorry. That -- that's the way it is. And I think the government should pull all the levers at its disposal to fine people and pull this off as what the American people asked Donald Trump to do.
Yes, they should be deporting violent people. Yes, they should be deporting people who committed violent acts before they came here. But at some juncture, if you're going to allow any illegal immigration at all, the message then goes out. Just get here. It'll probably work out for you. That was the last administration. This is the different one.
PHILLIP: Yeah, the government, including DHS, by the way, encourages undocumented immigrants to file their taxes. So that they can, if they need to, later on, normalize their status. So that they can collect the money and they collect, you know, almost a$100 billion of money from those people.
NAVARRO: Well, that's part of a program, what's called in immigration law, Good Moral Character. And, usually, when you -- if and when a path to residency becomes available, that is one of the requirements, proving, good moral character.
Look, I think what's going to happen here is that there's going to be a lot of fear in the immigrant community. Even folks who are here on things like temporary status or pending asylum claims. I think you're going to see a lot of falsified information, falsified addresses or people not filing taxes. You know, people who are immigrants not filing taxes. So, I think it's going to affect that.
Look. I think -- I think this is part of this bigger strategy by the Trump administration of causing fear, having a reign of fear in the immigrant community so that people don't come and that people self deport. And I think this is one more thing, as a -- that they see as a -- as a means to -- to that end.
[22:40:00]
And -- and frankly, you know, we know that they're not just arresting and deporting criminals. We know that 75 percent of the people of the Venezuelans that have been sent to El Salvador do not have criminal records.
And the other 22 percent that do have criminal records, the vast majority are non-violent offenses. We -- we know that. That's the reason that they're not showing us the evidence of these supposed ties to a gang and criminal activity.
PHILLIP: What we will -- what we will apparently, I think this will probably end up getting litigated is that there were concerns in the IRS why so many of these officials resigned is because they're concerned that it's just not legal to do this.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, I mean, look, I think the President has to have broad authority to remove people who are in the in the country illegally. With that said, even if we were to have discussions about removing only violent perpetrators from wherever they came from, sending them back home, and said, look, we're going to have a different process for people who did break the law, you got to pay a fine.
I remember Democrats once upon a time, even Hillary Clinton, saying, like, hey. If you're here illegally, you got to pay a pretty steep fine. The only way you're going to know who these people are to be able to assess that fine is by knowing what their tax information is. So, I'm not necessarily against this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I don't think that's the only way, though.
SINGLETON: But -- but I'm saying if -- if we will get to a point --
PHILLIP: I don't think that's the only way, though.
SINGLETON: -- where that was a part of the conversation, you do need to know where these people are.
PHILLIP: I don't think that's --
SINGLETON: -- You need to know who they are. I'm not against this.
PHILLIP: But I don't think that's the only way.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, the privacy of tax data has existed for a very long time. And we've had amnesty programs in the '80s where they didn't go into the tax files to find -- they're going to support that.
SINGLETON: Yeah, we don't need any more amnesty programs. I don't think they're going to support that.
PHILLIP: I'm just giving -- using that as an example --
SINGLETON: Sure.
PHILLIP: -- of how you normalize --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: -- by Ronald Reagan --
SINGLETON: Oh, I know.
PHILLIP: -- certain status.
JENNINGS: Unfortunately, is -- is the government going to be tolerant of any illegal immigration or not? I mean, that was really the basic debate between Biden, and Harris, and then Trump. Are we going to have any tolerance? Because tolerance then causes more illegal immigration. And -- and by saying, well, let's just leave certain kinds of population. Let's not pull all the levers. That's tolerance.
PHILLIP: Well, look. We got to go, but --
JENNINGS: That's the message we're sending. It's just --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: The reason I asked you about that specifically, Scott, is because I remember you at this very table saying Trump was not going to go forward with mass deportations. He was going to go after criminals first. JENNINGS: They are.
PHILLIP: That has been -- that was the argument during the campaign. And if we end up seeing mass deportations using tax information --
JENNINGS: No, I never said we wouldn't do math. I said -- I said criminals are the most important, but, ultimately, anybody here illegally is going to be deported according to Trump.
PHILLIP: Well, we will find out what they do with that information if they ultimately get it back. Coming up next, also breaking tonight, after the "A.P." refused to adopt Trump's language on the Gulf of America, a judge rules that the White House's punishment is unconstitutional. We have a special guest joining us in our fifth seat.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:47:27]
PHILLIP: Tonight, a pillar of the free press gets its front row seat to history back. The Trump administration has exiled the "A.P." from White House events because the outlet didn't go along to get along by referring to the Gulf of Mexico as the Gulf of America. And now a judge, Trevor McFadden, says that the Trump's steer decision crosses constitutional lines.
The bottom line of all of this is that the government cannot deny the "A.P." equal access just because it wants to. Quote, "The A.P.'s exclusion has been contrary to the first amendment, and it enjoins the government from continuing down that unlawful path."
Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is CNN chief media analyst Brian Stelter. This is coming from a Trump appointed judge.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Yes.
PHILLIP: But it also is a conclusion that seems very logical.
STELTER: And I think he wrote this ruling today, in part, you know, trying to have Trump voters understand it, to have MAGA media understand this ruling, saying he's not, you know, ruling that every news outlet has to be allowed in at all times.
He's saying, if you let in Reuters and Bloomberg, which are the "A.P's" two rivals, then you can't exclude the "A.P." just because you don't like what they write. This is specifically about viewpoint discrimination. That's what he's saying is unconstitutional. I think, on paper, huge win for the "A.P." today.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
STELTER: And other news outlets, breathing a sigh of relief because they're worried about the slippery slope. But in practice, I don't know if the "A.P." is actually going to be back there. PHILLIP: It is an important moment, Lindsay -- Rachel Lindsay --
Rachel, because this is the beginning of the Trump administration. And if they had not prevailed, if they had not challenged it and prevailed --
STELTER: Right.
PHILLIP: Right.
PHILLIP: I think that Trump would have continued to try other things that were further down the line.
LINDSAY: Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the trend that we continue to see him do in other areas, as well. I think it's interesting because I think that we're going to see this trend of some of these things that Trump is trying to push within the legal system, challenged and then him not be able to succeed on them.
I think that these attorneys are going in from the DOJ and they are -- they're going up, and they're these federal judges, even the Trump appointee judge --
STELTER: Right.
LINDSAY: -- is saying, hey, what's the legal basis for this? And they can't go back and answer it. And I think that we're going to continue to see maybe the struggle. I think this is a big win, like you said.
STELTER: But then what happens, right, if the "A.P." is still is not invited in? What kind of powers will actually be to enforce this? There's deep concerns still among one of those reporters about the lawless nature of some of Trump's actions and whether this will be enforced.
NAVARRO: I, you know, I think it's far more than a victory for the "A.P." I think it's a victory for America, a victory for the freedom of expression, right? Which is just such -- such a foundation for --
(CROSSTALK)
STELTER: So that you can still say Gulf of Mexico.
NAVARRO: Can I ask you something?
[22:50:00]
STELTER: Because that's what this was about. That's what it was about. The name of the gulf.
NAVARRO: Were there other media outlets that filed Amicus briefs or that supported the "A.P." in any way?
STELTER: There's been a lot of quiet support, but maybe not as loudly as you'd like.
NAVARRO: Well, I -- I mean, I -- I honestly think we have to applaud the -- or at least I have to applaud the "A.P." and the law firms that are standing up and the people that are standing up and not capitulating to Trump as so many others have shamefully done.
PHILLIP: Scott, do you accept what the judge said here?
JENNINGS: Yeah. I guess we'll see what the White House does. I don't know if they're going to appeal it. I didn't see if they made a statement about it tonight. I guess what they can do is allow the "A.P." in and never call on them again.
PHILLIP: They certainly can. That's their prerogative.
STELTER: And that may happen. The White House has a few days to -- to challenge this. Then it'll take effect on Sunday if they don't challenge it. But I think the White House will. I don't think the Trump administration is going to just take this and accept it. We've not seen that in the past few months.
NAVARRO: What enforcement capacity does the court have to force them to have the "A.P." in?
STELTER: Well, this is one of the questions now. Will Trump just do fewer press avails completely? Will he say, okay. Well, if I can't bring it well, that's you know, will they only allow in Newsmax? Will they only allow in Breitbart? That is a concern of the press corps.
PHILLIP: Well, you look. I mean, I think that they wanted to be able to make a point that they were excluding a news outlet because they weren't using specific language. In fact, let me just quickly play, what the White House has been saying about this very explicitly. They're not hiding the ball here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I was very upfront in my briefing on day one, that if we feel that there are lies being pushed by outlets in this room, we are going to hold those lies accountable. And it is a fact that the body of water off the coast of Louisiana is called the Gulf Of America. And I'm not sure why news outlets don't want to call it that, but that is what it is.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We're going to keep them out until such time as they agree that it's the Gulf of America. We're very proud of this country and we want it to be the Gulf of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, it's pretty plainly unconstitutional to tell a media outlet what they should and should not say.
SINGLETON: They're going to report what they want to report, but I -- I think they'll be invited back, and they just won't be called on. Simple as that. They'll just be one of many other news outlets in the room that the White House will completely ignore and that's the White House's prerogative. NAVARRO: Maybe they should just call it the Gulf of Exorbitant Tariffs.
PHILLIP: Well, on that note, coming up next for us, the panel gives us their night caps. What should be brought back from extinction inspired by a real life "Jurassic Park" scenario.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:57:03]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap, "Jurassic Park" edition. So, a biotech company announced that they have resurrected an extinct species of dire wolf after their ancestors died out some 12,000 years ago, and they are much cuter than dinosaurs. This might be a little scary, but fine.
You each have thirty seconds to tell us what else you think should be brought back from the dead, Shermichael.
SINGLETON: So, I wouldn't say that this is necessarily dead, but being from the South, growing up hunting at a very young age, I would like to see fishing and hunting sports return to schools. Eighty-eight percent of young men say that they spend most of their time on the internet or playing video games. Let's get our boys doing masculine things again.
PHILLIP: I didn't know they were ever in schools, but that sounds interesting. I would -- I would have taken a fishing class.
SINGLETON: Sports in the schools.
PHILLIP: Yeah. I would have done that.
LINDSAY: I'm from the South, too. I didn't know that either. I decided to say bring back something wholesome, something that's nostalgic for me. Bring back "Blockbuster". Remember how fun that was on a Friday night?
You go out, you get to run, pick, like, look at the different movies and grab some snacks. Like, sure, streaming is fun now and you could pick your movie, but there was nothing like going to a "Blockbuster" and running through and -- and having that moment on Friday night.
PHILLIP: And don't forget to rewind.
LINDSAY: And don't forget to rewind or bring back the movie. Or bring back the movie.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Brian.
STELTER: Let's bring back AOL away messages. Remember AOL Instant Messenger in the '90s and you'd be chatting with your friends and then you'd send an away message. You could say whatever you wanted, send a, you know, coded message, a message to your crush, whatever it was. Nowadays on the internet, we're always supposed to always be online.
People assume you're always present and never away. And we need to be able to have some away time. We need to be able to have some offline time in this world, so I think we need away messages again.
LINDSAY: I like it.
PHILLIP: I need that like red light that they used to have or whatever green light that was like she's online and like I can turn that light off when --
STELTER: Turn it off.
(CROSSTALK)
SINGLETON: Away -- to your face.
PHILLIP: Because now, people just text you at all hours of the day and night and they want an answer immediately. And I can't live my life like that.
NAVARRO: And you all are showing your age. All the people -- all the people under a certain age have no damn clue what you all are talking about. "Blockbuster "and AOL. What do I want to bring back? I really like to bring from extinction, principled Republicans elected to Congress. You know, all of these Republicans who used to be free traders are now defending tariffs.
All of these Republicans who used to defend and stand by Ukraine are now standing by Putin. I'd like to see Republicans go back to having some conviction, some principles, and it'd be nice to have if they also had some cojones.
PHILLIP: All right. Scott.
JENNINGS: All right, America, I'm going to hold your hand while I say this. We're going back to the office five days a week, and we're going to wear business attire. We're no longer dressing like hobos, and we're no longer going to act like every job is a part time job. Go back to work, Put on a tie. Stop whining. Let's get back -- let's get back to business. Get back to business.
NAVARRO: Start with Elon Musk.
LINDSAY: Seriously.
JENNINGS: That's my -- that's my plea.
PHILLIP: Wow.
[23:00:00]
JENNINGS: I'm bringing it back. Five-day work week has become extinct. How?
PHILLIP: Business attire, was that? SINGLETON: Scott, you just pissed off half of --
PHILLIP: It's okay. I mean, look. I feel like people --
JENNINGS: You know what I do here? I'm literally --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Do you understand? It's on my business card.
PHILLIP: The truth is -- the truth is, Scott wouldn't be Scott if he weren't here because he belonged. Everyone, thank you very much, and thank you for watching "NewsNight" at home. You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
