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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Pauses Mass Tariffs After Economy Sinks; JPMorgan Says, Recession Still Likely Despite Tariff Pause; Trump Doubles Down on War With China, Raises Tariffs to 125 Percent. President Trump Announces 90-day Tariff Pause; Trump Tells Investor to Buy Before Tariff Pause; President Trump Orders Investigation of Former Aides. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 09, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): What does that mean? It means get involved in grassroots organizing. That means holding your member of Congress accountable. You have the power to say to him or her, guess what, we're doing a town meeting and we want to make sure that you're not going to vote for tax breaks for the rich and cut Medicaid. And if you don't come, we're holding that meeting anyhow. And if you really don't come and you vote the wrong way, guess what, we are going to defeat you.
My experience is that while there are divisions in this country, absolutely, the overwhelming majority of people want to create an America where we have an economy and a government that works for all. I don't care if you're a conservative Republican or a progressive like I am. Most people don't think it's appropriate that so few people have so much economic and political power. Most people do not think that it is right, that we give tax breaks to billionaires and lay off 83,000 workers at the Veterans Administration, or that we decimate the Social Security Administration.
So, what I would say to young people and all people go outside your zone of comfort. It's easy to talk to people who agree with you every day, but you're going to have to listen to other people who may disagree with you. Maybe they disagree with you on abortion or gay rights, or whatever it may be. Sit down and talk to them. I've been to every state in this country, and what inspires me is the knowledge that our people, by and large, are decent human beings who want the best for their kids. And our job is to bring people together around an agenda that works for all of us and to bring people together to oppose this horrific drift toward oligarchy and authoritarianism that we are seeing right now.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you very much.
SANDERS: Thank you all.
COOPER: I appreciate it. And thank you in our audience here in the studio. Be sure to join us tomorrow at 9:00 P.M. Eastern for America Asks Congress, a CNN Town Hall, hosted by Jake Tapper and Kaitlan Collins. They'll be joined by four swing district representatives. We will take questions from their constituents.
NewsNight with Abby Phillips starts right now.
SANDERS: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, we debate the town hall takeaways.
SANDERS: They can't even justify or explain.
PHILLIP: As Americans grow more worried about their wallets.
Plus, it's like this and like that and like this, and --
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: they're getting a little bit yippy, a little bit afraid.
PHILLIP: The art of the deal or the art of the Neil?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: WTF, who's in charge?
PHILLIP: And why the economic rollercoaster ride is just getting started.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Ana Navarro, Shermichael Singleton, Tiffany Cross and Richard Quest.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (voice over): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. We'll get reaction to the Bernie Sanders town hall, but, first, let's set the table with what America is talking about, chaos.
One week ago tonight, charts, penguins, fuzzy math, and since then, plunges, retaliation, recession warnings, and now after setting the economy on fire, President Trump is taking credit for calling the fire department after a week of letting the flames run wild by pausing his mass tariffs for 90 days while escalating the war with China. And also tonight JPMorgan saying a recession is still likely despite the reversal.
We want to get a little bit of reaction to what is happening in that town hall because I think Bernie Sanders made a point. He is a populist, right? He maybe was a populist before Donald Trump was a populist. He has supportive unions, but he still thinks that this tariff war is not worth it. Let's just play what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: The isolation, how is it worth it? What is worth it? When you have people that have been our neighbors and allies and friends for almost 200 years in Canada now distrusting the United States, our friends in the U.K. throughout Europe distrusting the United States, we are becoming isolated from the rest of the world. So, there's very little that I can see that would make it worth that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The point is, I think, one that a lot of people are making, Scott, and it also, I think, is enforced by what happened today, which was a fear that there was an erosion of trust in the United States as a fair broker in the world, as a market that investors even want to be a part of.
[22:05:01]
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the administration is pitching it just the opposite, which is that they're going to deal with the rest of the world and try to isolate China. So, I think they see it very much differently than the way Sanders is pitching it. And I think that's the correct way to see it, because China is the bad guy here. They're a bad actor. Anybody who does business with China in and around China knows you can't trust them. They steal your I.P. They -- I mean, they do a thing and then they resell it back here in the United States. I mean, they do terrible things to everybody that does business with them. And so if the net result of this ends up being that the United States creates fairer trade deals with the rest of the world and we end up isolating China, I think it will have been worth it. So, I'm in disagreement with Senator Sanders.
PHILLIP: One of the things that's happened is that the United States has lost, like, what, is it a trillion dollars or $11 trillion since this all began, maybe regained a little bit of it, but has lost all of that and not a single trade deal has been struck, not one.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: No. And the reason why they haven't been struck is because lowering the headline tariff number is the easy bit. The 90 days is now going to be dealing really with the non-tariff barriers, the rules on procurement, who can own what, this and that. It's difficult stuff. It's very, very difficult.
But I have a question and I and I'd like to address it to my dear and good friend, Mr. Jennings. This is it. Today, the president gave a 90- day moratorium. Why did he, not last week when he did his show and tell with his list, say then, this is going to be the tariffs in 90 days? Now send your best people to Washington to negotiate with me over the next 90 days? Instead, he took us over the cliff and has now pulled us back up again and he's left chaos in his way.
PHILLIP: It is a great question. Scott?
JENNINGS: I think, the answer that you would get from the administration is doing it this way gave him maximum leverage. It showed people that he was serious and it showed people that this isn't for show, that if you don't deal with us, we are willing to act here. But I think the answer is leverage, simply leverage. And now he's going to be able to deal with all these other countries and continue to isolate the bad actor, which is China.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't think he's shown people that he's serious. I think he's shown people that He's crazy. He's mercurial. Honestly, if it was Kamala Harris behaving this way, they call her hormonal and hysterical, right?
Look --
JENNINGS: well, you'd have to get elected to be --
NAVARRO: But -- well, yes. And if she had been elected and if Hillary Clinton had been elected, if any woman had been elected and been acting this way, they'd say it was menopause.
JENNINGS: She would've never stood up to China. So, this is a mood issue, right?
NAVARRO: No, it's not a mood issue because his craziness and the way that he acts. And this is not in a vacuum because it's not just the tariffs. It's -- the first thing he did was attack Panama, Greenland, Denmark, Canada, allies, abandoned Ukraine, cozy up to Russia. It's been one thing to and after another.
QUEST: It's the totality.
NAVARRO: But this is also very similar to what DOGE has been doing, where they go in with a sledgehammer when everybody talks about needing a scalpel. With these tariffs, again, went in with a sledgehammer, caused fear, destruction, distrust, when it could have been done with a scalpel in a strategic way. That's just not the way he operated.
TIFFANY CROSS, AUTHOR, SAY IT LOUDER: Even the administration was not on the same page. I mean, it was -- the narrative around these tariffs have changed so many times. First it was, oh, it's punitive because of Mexico and Canada and fentanyl, which, by the way, a majority of the fentanyl crossing the border is from American citizens. Then it was, you know, we are going to level the playing field and this is how we're going to pay for tax cuts. It does not show that he was serious. It shows that he was grossly unserious. And so, yet, again, on the heels of a Signal group chat and now tariffs, we look like a national embarrassment --
PHILLIP: Well, let me just play one thing. Let me play one thing, to Tiffany's point. I mean, Donald Trump and Scott Bessent have not been on the same page about this. Bessent has been trying to paint this as a pretty rosy picture, saying, you know, the bond markets had nothing to do with it. And the way that the market responded had nothing to do with it.
Trump said the opposite. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Watching it, but if you look at it now, it's beautiful. The bond market right now is beautiful. But, yes, I saw last night where people were getting a little queasy.
REPORTER: How much of this decision was driven by the bond market cratering overnight? What is happening with bonds? Is China selling their bonds?
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: I have nothing that says that. And we actually had quite a good ten-year auction today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's kind of a casualty of being in Trump's cabinet that he will contradict you just a few minutes after you say something, but it had everything to do with the bond market, according to all available reporting. They went to the president and said, Mr. President, all the lights are flashing red right now. We have to change course, and he did.
[22:10:00]
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I think it's important for the president to adhere to the advice of his advisers. These are complicated matters. The market, for the most part, likes stability and continuity. We all understand that. We talked about this the other day.
With that said, I think at the end result needs to be can we level set with many of our trading partners and decrease the trade deficits that ultimately exist? If we can do that, I think that's a win. As it pertains to corporate America, I think once we pass corporate tax cuts or renew the Trump tax cuts, I think we'll see a significant amount of that wealth return in the next couple of weeks or two, three months. I think corporate America will be perfectly fine and then we'll move on.
The focus does need to be on China. I mean, Scott's right, they steal our I.P. and sell it back to us. I don't know any country in the world who would give their ideas away for free and then buy the ideas back. We have to figure out a way to protect American businesses and entrepreneurs, and we haven't figured that out in the past couple of years now. So, I think there's some benefit to the American people and businesses by focusing the attention on China.
PHILLIP: I think everybody agrees with that. The problem is China's not playing ball. They're just ratcheting up the escalation.
SINGLETON: They're going to have to, though, Abby. We are their number one trading partner.
QUEST: No. There's no have to in this.
CROSS: Right.
QUEST: Because start looking at trade flows. I wish I had a map or a diagram. You're going to start seeing south, south trade. You're going to see trade avoiding the United States. Let's remember --
PHILLIP: Yes. Richard, can I just have you explain very briefly what south trade means for people who are -- you've said it a few times.
QUEST: Well, it's basically anything, you know, that doesn't go through the northern hemisphere. It's southern hemispheric countries trading with each other, avoiding northern hemispheric. And that would include the E.U. with its regulations and the United States. We're seeing huge amounts of Africa to Central and Latin America, Australasia, Asian, ASEAN trade.
Can I just also have a reality check here? The sort of Damocles, if you will, has been lifted again and is now hanging over on the big stuff, but we still have steel aluminium, or aluminum, as you insist on saying, steel and aluminum tariffs.
PHILLIP: We're in America, Richard Quest.
QUEST: We still have auto tariffs, 25 percent. We've still got 125 percent on China. And we have tripled, or he has tripled the average tariff overall to 10 percent, which is livable. I'll give you that, Scott. It's livable 10 percent, but it's still a tripling of where it was just a couple of weeks ago.
SINGLETON: But, Richard, how do you account for the fact that China has seen a significant decrease in their economic growth throughout fiscal year 2024 compared to 2023? And how that has to factor into the considerations of Xi Jinping moving forward and trying to bridge some type of a trade deal with the United States?
QUEST: If Xi Jinping was standing for Beijing north in an election, it would. But it doesn't.
PHILLIP: A different kind of --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Effectively no politics, Shermichael. I think this is a big -- an important point. China -- Xi Jinping does not have to deal with politics in the way that Donald Trump and the Republican Party have to deal with it. That is a fundamental difference in our systems. So, they can withstand a lot of pain, a lot more pain.
NAVARRO: But Richard just said that 10 percent is livable. Listen, the reason he got elected, one of the big reasons, is because he promised lower costs of living, lower groceries, even though he thinks groceries are like some sort of antiquated term from old English, he promised lower egg prices, lower prices in the grocery store.
JENNINGS: Things are down, by the way.
NAVARRO: People -- okay, but people -- well, not that there's a 10 percent tariff on everything. Not that there's a 10 percent tariff on avocados.
PHILLIP: I don't want to get into eggs. They are importing a lot of eggs, which will be affected by tariffs. So, there you go.
QUEST: They were mutually non-exclusive in a sense. You couldn't do both. You couldn't bring down the trade deficit and not have a certain amount of inflation.
NAVARRO: But there's people -- my point is that there's people who are living paycheck for paycheck, for whom 10 percent, it's not livable.
CROSS: And the trade -- honestly, the trade is asymmetric and we import --
NAVARRO: And who voted for Donald Trump.
CROSS: Precisely. Trade is asymmetrical with China. We imported over $439 billion products from China. We exported over $140 billion from China. Their own foreign ministry has said, we will not flinch. We will not genuflect to a bullying government. I respectfully disagree.
SINGLETON: Tiffany, we rely so much on an adversary to make most of our goods?
CROSS: Listen, whether it bothers me or not is irrelevant. I'm dealing with reality.
SINGLETON: But it's important though.
CROSS: It is important, but this is what it is.
JENNINGS: Why does it have to be the reality that we are dependent on so many things to come out of our biggest adversary in the world? They're the enemy and we should not be dependent on the enemy.
CROSS: Right. No, they're not our enemy. They're our biggest trading partner.
(CROSSTALKS)
QUEST: They got all earth minerals and you don't.
JENNINGS: They're the enemies.
CROSS: Right. But --
SINGLETON: They have more than us.
CROSS: But like it or not, Shermichael, they are our biggest trading partner. And if we were to manufacture iPhones here, iPhones will cost $3,500. The American people are not going to tolerate that. We have one of the highest standards of work of working conditions here. I don't think that we can say, forget you, China. They literally --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: Hold on, Shermichael. So, you're okay if we continue to put our own economic and national security future in the hands of our biggest enemy, because, effectively, they use slave labor to build stuff and that makes it better for us?
[22:15:09] That is terrible.
CROSS: I am 100 percent not okay with that, but I'm dealing in the reality of what it is?
JENNINGS: But you are. Do you want to change it?
CROSS: I absolutely want to change it. I don't know that changing it means isolating us on the global stage with these tariffs --
SINGLETON: So, Tiffany, if I could ask, what happens if we ever have a military conflict with China and they say, you know what, we're going to put an arm embargo on anything shipping to the United States? We're going to stop everything. What happens then?
PHILLIP: Don't you think they're not in a situation where we want to have friends?
SINGLETON: Not China.
PHILLIP: No. I'm saying allies, not the ones that like people that we put tariffs on in the last week. Wouldn't you think that what we would want is to build trading relationships with people who like us?
SINGLETON: If you have fair trade relationships that benefit the United States, not our friends. That's not a good friendship. That's an abusive relationship.
PHILLIP: Fair relationships with people who are our friends, wouldn't that be the right strategy?
SINGLETON: I agree with fair. I would agree with fair.
PHILLIP: But what happened over the last week was not that. What happened over the last week was that we said we're going to treat Britain and France and the E.U. like China. We're going to just take the whole -- the same formula we use for China and slap it on our friends. Does that make any sense to you?
SINGLETON: What makes sense to me is to decrease the trade issues that we have with other countries. I think that makes sense. It doesn't make sense to me that our friends across the globe have a benefit to trading with the United States and American workers do not when these deficiencies do exist.
QUEST: Why do you want to repair 70 years of imbalance -- and I agree fully with both of you, that the trade relationship vis-a-vis the United States had to be readjusted.
SINGLETON: You've talked about it.
QUEST: Yes. But you don't do it overnight and you don't offend your allies while you are doing it with the whole Greenland, 51st state, Japan. You just don't do that. Not if you are going to turn round, and goodness knows, when then say, can we have your help?
CROSS: It's a colonizer's attitude to say, I like it, I'm just going to steal it. Now, the fact of the matter is --
JENNINGS: Steal what?
CROSS: Land, land, you cannot just go and say, I like it. It's mine now. It doesn't work that way. Well, that is what they're trying to do. And in this new world order -- yes, absolutely. When they're looking at Greenland and say, I like it, I want to take it for mine, that is a very colonizer --
PHILLIP: Scott, you are -- you have said that you are --
JENNINGS: I have never ever said, we're going to go to Greenland and, quote, colonize it or steal it.
CROSS: You're not a member of government, so you're irrelevant at that point. I'm talking about the president of the United States doing it.
JENNINGS: You got fired from your job. How --
(CROSSTALKS)
CROSS: Scott, if you want to engage in personal insults --
JENNINGS: I don't, but you do.
CROSS: When you lack in a legitimate point, you make up for personal insults.
JENNINGS: I don't. You do.
CROSS: The point I am making is in this new world order, we are looking at countries, whether or not they're an adversary or ally, it is being determined on what kind of deal we can get. And we cannot govern, we cannot legislate that way. We are increasingly isolated on the world state.
JENNINGS: No, we're not.
CROSS: So, if you want to engage in personal insults, if I were you, I would reserve that for your party who has increasingly isolated this --
QUEST: How many people outside the United States have you all spoken to in the last few weeks?
NAVARRO: A lot.
SINGLETON: Several.
PHILLIP: I've been speaking to you frequently in here.
(CROSSTALKS)
NAVARRO: I speak to a lot of Europeans. I speak to a lot of Panamanians. I speak to a lot of Central Americans. And they think -- I'll tell you what they think. They think he's acting like a dictator. They think he's acting a lot like Ortega in Nicaragua, a lot like Maduro in Venezuela, a lot like they act in Cuba.
SINGLETON: Are they serious when they say that?
NAVARRO: Oh, no. By the way --
SINGLETON: A dictatorship?
NAVARRO: Yes, attacks on the free press, attacks on the free press.
QUEST: I was in Brussels last week and that's what --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hang on, guys, just one at a time.
SINGLETON: (INAUDIBLE) close to a dictatorship in the United States.
CROSS: Absolutely. Did you see what he did today?
PHILLIP: Hang on one second. Hang on one second. One at a time, please.
NAVARRO: Who defended the 2020 election results, who worked for him, asked for the DOJ to investigate him? That's what dictators --
PHILLIP: We're going to get to that later. We're going to get to that later.
SINGLETON: People believe that we live in a ship in America?
NAVARRO: You're not aware. I lived in one.
SINGLETON: And I know you have.
NAVARRO: Okay. You know --
SINGLETON: So, you should know better. Then saying that we live in a dictatorship in the United States of America?
NAVARRO: They ban, they censor the press, like he just did with the A.P. So that's -- they do not listen to judicial orders, like he hasn't done.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Shermichael. Hold on. Let me let Richard, because he, he introduced this point and didn't finish what the point you were trying to say. What are they saying overseas?
QUEST: I've been in London and Brussels and Paris and all load of other places over the last month. And we can use -- let's lower the temperature on the word, dictatorship. We mean dictatorship with a small d, in a sense. And we all know what we mean when we say that.
PHILLIP: Sure.
QUEST: In other words --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: I think it's crazy to call it. We have elections here.
PHILLIP: Just give me a second because I don't want us to get sidetracked on the word -- I don't want to get sidetrack on the use of the dictatorship. And, by the way -- hold on. By the way, we will have an opportunity to discuss what Ana was talking about when it comes to these executive orders. But, Richard, continue.
QUEST: They're all concerned in Brussels, in London, in Paris, in Sydney. They're concerned at what they perceive as the rolling back of the rule of law in this country, that this country is no longer perceiving following judicial orders, all the sort of things that western democracies -- no, I don't say liberal, western democracies have always followed and the U.S. has led.
[22:20:16]
And their perception in Brussels is the U.S. is heading off track and off the rails. That's as simple as that.
PHILLIP: Can I play -- I want to play Conservative Host Erick Erickson, who says that he's a Republican, he's a conservative, he says, his own people are being intellectually dishonest about Trump and everything that we're seeing right now, especially when it comes to the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERICK ERICKSON, HOST, THE ERICK ERICKSON SHOW: I am so unbelievably frustrated with the level of intellectual dishonesty of so many people on the right. When I see these guys out there who, when the stock market fell when Joe Biden was president by a percent or two blasting Joe Biden, and now the stock market is back to where it was in 2023, they're like, it's no big deal, it's all digital, it's all fake. Screw your retirement. You don't need to retire anyway. This is good for us.
I suspect when we get into the recession and it becomes real and apparent, people who said we're not going to have a recession will deny that the recession is because of the tariffs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's an important question because if this -- if a Democratic president had unilaterally and singlehandedly thrown the United States into three days of basically an economic roller coaster prompting, you know, everybody to say, okay, we're headed toward a recession, I think there would be a lot of Republican hair on fire.
SINGLETON: I mean there were a lot of media reports during the President Biden's administration every couple of months, we're headed towards a recession, we're headed towards a recession and it never occurred. And so I'm not certain what's really different this time around. PHILLIP: It was never like what we've experienced in the last.
SINGLETON: But my point is -- no -- the media reported absolutely --
PHILLIP: Just from a factual perspective --
SINGLETON: No, Abby. The media reporting even on this network was that every couple of months, we get towards a recession, that has never occurred.
PHILLIP: Richard, over the last four years, as the United States has navigated the post-COVID era and inflation, did you recall a period of time when the markets believed with this degree of certainty that there was a recession coming in the calendar?
QUEST: Yes.
JENNINGS: 2022.
QUEST: Yes, there was.
PHILLIP: I'm asking him.
QUEST: There was. But it was for -- it was a much more -- it was a slow burner, in a sense, and it came about because of the Fed raising interest rates at such a precipitous rate that we'd never seen before. And people like myself did believe that there was going to be a U.S. recession because we suddenly thought you can't go from zero to whatever percent and not have a recession. We didn't because of the resilience of this extraordinary economy, which was able to keep going. But there wasn't the level of chaos surrounding it. You had measured -- they were very fast, faster than we've ever seen before. And, yes, I thought there would be a recession. I thought --
(CROSSTALKS)
NAVARRO: But it wasn't (INAUDIBLE) by one man.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Scott.
JENNINGS: I think the market meltdown. And the interest rate hikes and everything that happened in 2022 and during most of Biden's term actually was caused by one person. The president of the United States led his party to printing $1.9 trillion of money into the economy. That caused the inflation, that and the market's reacted and interest rates reacted.
PHILLIP: Was that bad, Scott?
JENNINGS: Was it bad that the markets were down 20 and 30 percent in 2022? You seem to think it's bad today. Was it bad --
PHILLIP: Was it bad that if, in your view, that one man precipitated and a stock market drop? So, is it -- so to Erick Erickson's point, is it bad now that one man has precipitated massive selloffs in the stock market and a risk of recession?
JENNINGS: Well, we're going to see how it turns out. I don't know that we're in a risk of a recession right now.
PHILLIP: So, you won't say that it's bad now --
JENNINGS: I don't know how it's going to turn out. But your question me was, this has never happened before. It happened for four years.
PHILLIP: My question to you is about being intellectually honest. If it was bad, then shouldn't it be bad now?
JENNINGS: I don't know how this is going to turn out. It's been a week.
NAVARRO: To Erick's point, okay, and Erick, Erick used to work on this network, Erick was a colleague and he's a friend of mine, and a lot of times I disagree with him, but Erick has been intellectually honest and he's gotten a lot of flack from the left and from the right because he stayed consistent.
We saw Steven Moore at this table yesterday, a person who I've known for decades who has been fiercely anti-tariff, Marco Rubio, fiercely anti-tariff. And all of a sudden they have had these late in life conversions and they're bending themselves into pretzel shapes, looking rather ridiculous, trying to defend what Donald Trump is doing. They're doing the same thing on Ukraine. And we can look at topic after topic where that's happening.
And I will tell you something. Donald Trump said today that people had gotten yippy. I don't even know what the hell that word means, but to me, it means that he heard his supporters. He doesn't care what I say, but he cares what Ken Langone says.
[22:25:01]
He cares what Bill Ackman says. He definitely cares what Elon Musk says. And he cares what Republican leaders say. So, I hope that this is a lesson to them that they need to grow, damn it, a spine and a pair of cojones, and stick to the conservative principles that they have held their entire lifetime and not convert into little squids because of what Donald Trump thinks.
PHILLIP: All right, to be continued. Everyone standby.
Coming up next, you'll see how television played a role in Trump's dramatic reversal today.
Plus, breaking news tonight, Donald Trump orders an investigation into two of his former aides who criticized him in a move that critics call, as we were discussing tonight, authoritarian.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: We knew that T.V. was important in this Trump presidency, but watch how important it is when it comes to the fate of the global economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you personally expect a recession?
JAMIE DIMON, CEO, JPMORGAN CHASE: I am going to defer to my economists at this point, but I think probably that's a likely outcome.
I always remind people, markets aren't always right. But sometimes they're right and I think this time they are right.
[22:30:00]
Hopefully, if there is one, it'll be short. But I do think fixing these tariff issues and trade issues should be a good thing to do.
TRUMP: I watched Jamie Dimon on Maria Bartiromo's show this morning and he was very good. He said that actually made the statement to effect that something had to be done with the tariffs and trade. He said that. He said, look, you know, at some point, but he said something has to be done with tariffs and trade. He understood it. He's very smart, very a genius financially. He's done a fantastic job at the bank. It wasn't sustainable what was happening. Somebody had to pull the trigger. I was willing to pull the trigger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Let me just start by saying Jamie Dimon knows what he's doing by going to see Maria Bartiromo on this particular day, to get a message to the president and it seemed like he took some of it. Right? Maybe he took all of it, but he talked about the ones he wanted to talk about. The point is they are expecting -- his economist came out tonight saying our expectations of recession stay the same. They have not changed as a result of this and for good reason.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think we need to assess economic activity over time to make that determination with certainty. I certainly respect Jamie Dimon. He's one of the most brilliant business leaders we've had in this country in probably a hundred years. So I'm thankful that the president watched him and actually adhered to that advice.
Again, you know, Abby, I think the president can be strategic in his overall strategy as it pertains to tariffs. I think most people would generally speaking agree with that. And even Jamie Dimon, several months ago, said that he understands using tariffs as a strategic tool for the interest of the United States. With that said, it's I think it's a lack of -- it's the lack of stability, I think, that many in the business community and the finance space are really worried about.
And so if you can make some adjustments there, I think we can avoid it, recession in the long run. It's all about the economic activity of the country. ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Here's the thing. Look, what is the question -- we don't know how this is going to end up. We don't know what's going to happen in 90 days. We don't know what the effect of the 10 percent on everything is gonna be. We don't know what the -- what's going to -- how this thing with China is going to shake out.
But it's hard for me to imagine that the trauma, okay? The, psychological effects on the consumers, which the confidence was already going down of what has happened in the last five days, which has been a roller coaster, has been, you know, it's given all of us whiplash, is not going to have lasting effects, and that people are not going to hunker down and perhaps not spend the way they were planning to spend. Also, it's not in a vacuum. Think about what's happening with tourism, right? With the Canadians canceling, with, Europe issuing travel advisory against travelling into the United States.
PHILLIP: All foreign entries are way, way down into the United States.
NAVARRO: While in states like Maine and states like Vermont, in states like Florida that -- where Canadian snowbirds are a huge factor to our economy, that means a lot. In places like Las Vegas.
PHILLIP: So to your point, I mean, look at some of the headlines today. Delta warning of economic uncertainty, stalled growth. Walmart says the tariffs are gonna hit their quarterly profits. Corona Brewer issues a downbeat outlook on factoring in the new tariffs. Amazon canceling merchandise orders from China. And then, Richard, on top of that, this was top 10 best days for the S&P, which is actually not a good thing because all the other days were in the midst of recessions or huge downturns like the COVID pandemic.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: Right. And what an economy is basically like a cake. It's just the ingredients that get thrown in. There's no magic to it. The ingredients get thrown in. They all get mixed up. The cake either rises or it doesn't. And now to completely mix my metaphors, what's actually happened here is, you know, everything's just been poured in, but the question of a recession, all these other tariffs, the steel, the China, the 10 percent. It's a question of the uncertainty.
It's a question of the job layoffs in Washington or elsewhere and people are worried about spending. It's the consumer confidence numbers that -- they -- these are the ingredients. Yes, we went up 8 percent on the Nasdaq, but we're down 20 percent so far on the -- into a bear market. Maybe we're not in there now at the moment. These are the ingredients that will go into the cake that you then mix it up, and you wait to see if it rises.
PHILLIP: Can I ask you one more thing? How concerned are you about the chain of events here? Donald Trump, Truth Socialing at 09:37 a.m. "This is a great time to buy DJT," which is, the ticker for his company. And then later in the afternoon lifting the pause and everything skyrockets. There was a lot of other activity going on in the markets that people are concerned about. What do you think?
QUEST: We know from what we've heard today that there was a meeting this morning between Bessent, Lutnick, and the president. The president admitted this in the Oval Office when he said they talked about it. We wrote the statement. It was a beautiful thing. It came from the heart. And then you get this this tweet or whatever you want to call it on. So, to tell people this is a good time to buy whether it's DJT as a ticker or DJT as in his initials, which he doesn't use very often by the way in his posts.
[22:35:06]
If -- to say this is a good time to buy and then take a decision that you pretty much know is gonna rally the market. I'm not going to finish that sentence.
PHILLIP: I mean, what is it? Tinkering with the markets?
QUEST: I don't know.
PHILLIP: Allowing for insider -- because anybody that was privy to that conversation or knew what was happening could have taken that information and done something with it.
QUEST: Anybody who read that tweet, I or it would for, you know, that that social -- and had an inkling of what he might do or anything like that. It's just -- you don't do it. It's as simple as that. You don't tell people now is a good time to buy if you are the person who is about to take a decision that is going to make money.
PHILLIP: Why is he doing things like this when most presidents know that they have the power to move markets. They tread carefully. Trump is not doing that.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I mean, he is radically transparent. Everything that is on his mind, he tends to either put out in front of the press in the Oval Office or out on his social media. I don't think today's commentary is any different than he operates on any other day, and I think it's been true for time immemorial that when a president speaks, however they speak, markets do move.
TIFFANY CROSS, CO-HOST NATIVE LAND POD: Because he --
JENNINGS: But that -- that's not the first time it's ever happened.
QUEST: Do you think it's appropriate --
CROSS: Right.
QUEST: -- for the president of the United States knowing he's about to take a decision that is going to buoy the market to actually put out a social posting saying, now is a good time to buy? And anybody who might know how he's thinking on these issues might say, hey, I hope he's gonna do so. I don't know. I'm just saying.
PHILLIP: Yeah. Tiffany?
CROSS: But because he's doing something unethical and he's doing it before the American people, that doesn't make it right. He doesn't get to wear that as a badge of honor. I also get nervous respectfully when we talk about the economy in terms of the market, because I think about the average person at home who is going to the grocery store, figuring out how to pay their mortgage every day. And the economy for them is not whether or not to buy a stock that day. It is how much can I afford to spend at the grocery store?
And what this has done, it's not that these tariffs are going to eventually hit people. They already have. Like, prices have already taken a toll on a lot of people. I did a show today and we were talking about people were paying $60 and $70 more for items and products before these tariffs have come to be. That is what the economy is. Most voters are not carrying stock prices into the voting booth.
And so for Donald Trump, the president of the United States, if any other elected official had done this on the other side of the of the Republican aisle, Scott, I can't imagine that you would be sitting here defending that. Shermichael, I can't imagine you would be defending that if a Democratic president was tweeting about now is a great time to participate in this bond market.
SHERMICHAEL: But I haven't defended what Richard was just talking about, but --
CROSS: So you do think it's inappropriate.
SHERMICHAEL: -- but I do want to go back to the idea of possibly going into a recession. Richard, and I wanted to get your thoughts on this. I mean, we saw several recessionary factors in the previous administration, Fed hikes, slower growth, et cetera, and we were able to avoid it then. We haven't really seen economic activity constrict thus far. We'll have to see what consumer confidence and spending ultimately is as we go through Q2 of this year.
But when you say it's at least a little premature to be saying we're getting ready to face recession, and if not, I want to know why because I don't see the factors there.
QUEST: I know we've got to rush back. Because the dislocation is too great. The chaos is too much, and eventually, it overwhelms the system. It's back to my cake rising.
PHILLIP: I think We got to go.
JENNINGS: Well, I -- look, I think he watched Dimond on TV, but I also think he was hearing from private advisers. I think he was hearing from members of Congress, who, by the way, he's negotiating with over, you know, his reconciliation package right now. I think a lot of advice was coming in that led into the day's activities. And, you know, if renegotiating with our allies over a 90-day period is the net result of this, isn't that a good thing?
CROSS: His own administration is not even on the same page around this. They've been fanning across the meeting at random --
PHILLIP: Well, look, we got to leave it there and yeah. I mean, I think the idea that this was a great beautiful plan is not really borne out by any of the facts that we've seen come out. Richard Quest, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, stay with us.
Breaking news tonight. President Trump is demanding a DOJ investigation of two former officials turned critics. And for one of one of those officials, it was because he would not say that the 2020 election was stolen. Another special guest is going to join us at the table. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Breaking news tonight. Donald Trump ordering his Justice Department to go after two of his former aides. Their apparent crimes are criticizing him during his first term. In the crosshairs are Chris Krebs who ran Trump's cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. Trump fired Krebs for telling the truth about the 2020 election, and Miles Taylor, a homeland security official who rose to prominence in 2020 after revealing that he was the anonymous author behind a "New York Times" op-ed claiming to be part of the resistance to Trump's first presidency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I said, who the hell is Miles Taylor?
And I think what he did, he wrote a book anonymous, said all sorts of lies, bad things.
I think it's a very important case, and I think he's guilty of treason if you want to know the truth.
This guy grabs me saying, oh, the election was great. It was great. Well, we're gonna find out about this guy too because this guy's a wise guy. He said, we've proved this is the most secure election in the history of our country. No, this was a disaster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is CNN legal analyst, Michael Moore. He's a former U.S. attorney. This is pretty amazing that the executive order here -- here's what it says about Chris Krebs. "Krebs threw CISA falsely and baselessly denied that the 2020 election was rigged and stolen." That is in a presidential executive order, almost as if Bigfoot was real. What is going on?
MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah. Well, I'm glad to be with you. I think this is probably one of the most dangerous things that we've seen from him. And we've seen a lot of craziness, but this is now taking the department and completely weaponizing against two people who just disagreed with him. One who told the truth and was involved as a witness in a Congressional inquiry, and then somebody else who has said some things about him.
[02:44:59]
The problem is we're back to now what he complained about throughout the campaign and his presidency, and that was that the Justice Department had somehow been weaponized. And now you see him essentially given a mandate and a directive by way of this presidential order to the department to move forward.
PHILLIP: He signed two executive orders ordering investigations, weaponizing his Justice Department against people who just disagree with him. How does that -- how do you justify that?
SINGLETON: I mean, look, politically, you know, my advice to the president on this one would be continue to focus on strengthening the economy. You got to figure out a way to bring down cost. Keep doing what you're doing as it pertains to immigration. We need to increase chip manufacturing within the United States. There are several political things that I think --
PHILLIP: Okay. (CROSSTALK) Alright. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Okay, okay, okay. All right, Shermichael. I get it. I get it. Yes, he should focus on the economy.
SINGLETON: Yeah, he should.
PHILLIP: But, what do you think about the fact that he's targeting his political enemies using executive orders and telling his Justice Department --
SINGLETON: I just put a focus on this --
CROSS: But we are not focused on it, Shermichael. And you just said -- but Shermichael --
SINGLETON: Can answer --
CROSS: Well, you haven't answered. Well, you have not answered --
SINGLETON: Wait a minute. I did answer, just an answer to what you wanted me to answer. You (inaudible) get to dictate my comments to my response on this show.
CROSS: But your comments are not directed to the issue (CROSSTALK) that she asked.
SINGLETON: No, because my response was --
CROSS: Abd furthermore, Shermichael --
SINGLETON: -- the focus should be --
PHILLIP: Hang on a second. Hang on a second. (CROSSTALK). Tiffany? Tiffany, one second. I mean, listen, Shermichael, you're a friend of the show. You're my friend. Please answer the question.
SINGLETON: I answered the question the way I want.
PHILLIP: I mean, I think that. But, no, no -- but here is --
SINGLETON: No one's going to dictate the way I answer questions on the show. You may not like the way I answer the question --
PHILLIP: Shermichael.
SINGLETON: -- but I gave an answer and I don't like that. We're not --
PHILLIP: The question is --
SINGLETON: We're not going to do dictating reply the way I want you to reply. Then just don't ask me a question if you don't like my response. I mean, this is ridiculous.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Tiffany. Shermichael, you don't get to --
SINGLETON: Do we not live in a democracy now?
PHILLIP: You don't get to just change --
SINGLETON: I mean, we talked a lot about a democracy tonight. I guess not on this show.
PHILLIP: You don't get to just change the subject to avoid having to say something --
SINGLETON: I didn't change the subject. I did not change the subject.
PHILLIP: -- that might be perceived as negative about Donald Trump.
SINGLETON: You just didn't like my answer to your question.
PHILLIP: Well, that's what it seems like it. If you were a politician, a regular person on the street would say, well, that sounds like spin to me.
SINGLETON: No, no. You asked a question --
PHILLIP: Because it does sound quite a spin.
SINGLETON: -- and my response to your question was instead of doing this, the president should be focused on X, Y, and Z.
CROSS: May I respond to this?
SINGLETON: That is an answer to the question.
MOORE: This is why it's so dangerous, and this is an example of why it's so dangerous. And that is because nobody wants to speak out against it. You know, we've been waiting for Republicans, whether it be in Congress or wherever they are, to come up and actually say that we're not going to let Trump's power go unchecked. And when he does something wrong, something illegal, something outside the bounds of the history in the, you know, the department, they sit quiet.
JENNINGS: Is it illegal? Do you believe what he did is illegal? MOORE: Absolutely.
JENNINGS: Why is it illegal?
MOORE: Well, if you read the Justice Department manual, one of the things that talks about is a whole section on whether or not the White House could have direction or communication for a prosecution. That's in there today. Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't scrub it yet, but it's actually in there. They're not allowed to do that. The reason is because you have to keep the department to be completely nonpartisan. Matter of fact, that's the charging the citizen (inaudible).
JENNINGS: You don't think that the head of the executive branch can have law enforcement priorities?
MOORE: I think when you call and say go after a political enemy, that's illegal and wrong. And I think had -- and, you know, the tide always turns and the pendulum swings here when the Democrats are back in the White House, I imagine the Republicans are gonna scream bloody murder if the president, the Democratic president calls the department says, go after --- you know, let's go after the Trump teams and see what happens.
PHILLIP: I mean, I'm curious, like, are you suggesting that you don't think that it's wrong to go after political enemies?
JENNINGS: Here's what I think. I think the security clearance misaddressed the order. I think --
PHILLIP: Okay. I'm gonna have to do the same thing I just did to Shermichael in fairness to my friend over there because my question to you was do you think -- no, hold on. Do you think that it is right or wrong to go after the for the president to use the Justice Department to go after his political enemies?
JENNINGS: I think it is fine for the president to express law enforcement priorities. I think that the Department of Justice should exercise the same judgment that they would exercise on anyone else as it relates to whether someone should be criminally investigated. But here's what I believe about the order in total. The security clearances, fine. There's far too many people with security clearances. I don't have a problem when they take them away.
Reviewing access and dissemination of information, perfectly fine because we do know some oversteps occurred. Looking at whether the government was involved in censorship, which we know they were, perfectly fine. But I think --
PHILLIP: He's talking about censorship of his lie. He's alleging --
JENNINGS: Well, there were other issues.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Hold on, Scott.
JENNINGS: There were issues related to COVID. PHILLIP: He is alleging that CISA censored his lie that the election was stolen. It is not true that the election was stolen. Chris Krebs told the truth, and now he is being targeted by the government with an executive order.
CROSS: Right.
PHILLIP: I guess it shouldn't be -- I don't think it should be hard to just say this is not what the government should be doing. This is not what the president should be doing. Because if the shoe, to Michael's point, were on the other foot, as you claimed that it was, you thought that was a huge scandal.
[02:50:03]
JENNINGS: Again, I think the department of -- I think the president should be able to express his views about these issues, but I think the Department of Justice ought to exercise the same judgment that it would use on any other kind of investigation. Now, what these guys did and whether it deserves a criminal investigation, I don't know. You're a lawyer. I'm not.
But I do know this, that, like, in the case of Miles Taylor, was working in the government anonymously, obviously, disseminating information publicly that he should not have been doing.
PHILLIP: Like what?
JENNINGS: Well, I mean, he was anonymously writing pieces for "The New York Times" --
PHILLIP: Okay.
JENNINGS: -- and stating publicly that he was trying to undermine the government of the United States that he was supposedly working for.
PHILLIP: Okay, but what did he disseminate that he was legally not allowed to disseminate?
JENNINGS: Great -- great thing to find out. He was a high ranking position to the heart (ph) of Homeland Security.
PHILLIP: I mean he wrote --
CROSS: Well, you could see the op-ed.
PHILLIP: He wrote an op-ed --
JENNINGS: What did he have access to? I don't know.
PHILLIP: He wrote an op-ed and --
JENNINGS: What did he disseminate to people we don't know about.
PHILLIP: He wrote an op-ed and he wrote a book, so --
JENNINGS: Okay.
PHILLIP: -- what's the allegation?
JENNINGS: I think anybody who held a high ranking position in a Homeland Security department like he did, we know what they did publicly. I'd love to know what he did privately.
PHILLIP: They're not allowed to talk about their experiences when they leave government. Is that what you're suggesting?
JENNINGS: I'm saying that he clearly used his position to try to undermine the sitting president of the United States when he had it. I know what he did publicly now. I don't know what he did privately. I mean, it's worthy of investigation?
CROSS: Can I just get some straight talk here because you're not going to get it at this table, obviously. I think it is ridiculous that you are sitting here defending this. Shermichael, you just talked about with great arrogance that, no, this is not -- are we seriously trying to say this is not a democracy? This is a dictatorship.
SINGLETON: No, with arrogance. Let's not --
CROSS: Yes. That --
SINGLETON: It wasn't with arrogance.
CROSS: Respectfully, Shermichael, if I could finish and have the professional courtesy to finish my point?
SINGLETON: What I said was that the president should be focused on X, Y, and Z thing. Well, you don't let me finish my point. You interrupted me because you didn't like my answers.
PHILLIP: Guys.
CROSS: Because you were skirting the question. You did not answer --
SINGLETON: I wasn't skirting the question. I gave an answer that you did not like.
CROSS: Absolutely. And the fact that we have to debate -- excuse me.
SINGLETON: So you weren't talking about arrogance. No, I think you're the one --
CROSS: The fact that we are --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Let's just --
CROSS: -- the fact that we are even debating whether or not this is right or not shows --
PHILLIP: And I'll let you respond, Shermichael.
CROSS: -- how broken this discourse is, Shermichael, respectfully. And you're a friend, so I'm saying it respectfully.
SINGLETON: No, no. No, no. I'm listening to you, Tiffany.
CROSS: But respectfully, Shermichael, this is absolutely what dictators do. And the fact that we are presenting this like it's an opinion. No, we can factually state that the president of the United States is using the Oval Office as a bully pulpit to beat his chest and strike revenge on people he perceives as his enemy.
Miles Taylor was actually a survivor of Havana Syndrome. He was one of the people who, you know, got ill and we still don't know who was behind, Havana Syndrome, but he was actually serving his country. He said something that the president did not like. He was critical of him. And now this president is threatening him with legal action. That is not okay.
PHILLIP: I got to let Shermichael have a couple seconds (inaudible).
SINGLETON: Tiffany, just quickly.
CROSS: Yes.
SINGLETON: Would you not be in agreement that the president should govern and focus on the issues that make a difference for the people in this country?
CROSS: Obviously.
SINGLETON: That was my answer. Why is that a problematic answer?
CROSS: Because why can you not say that when --
MOORE: because that wasn't the question.
CROSS: -- right? Abby did not say Shermichael, should the debating whether president govern? She said, is it appropriate for this president to be targeting his political enemies? So yes, or no? Is it appropriate targeting political enemies?
SINGLETON: Tiffany, if a political leader is operating in such a way that I believe is a distraction from the aims of their political objectives, then I think I have every right to say, I would focus on these things versus this. What is the --
CROSS: What about --
PHILLIP: Hold on (CROSSTALK). Okay, we really, really got to go here, but Shermichael, I guess to my question, my question is there is a difference between, oh, is this a distraction or not and is it right, is it wrong, is it legal? Is it not? You're not a lawyer. So for you, the question is, is it right or is it wrong. I feel like you should be able to express a view on that.
SINGLETON: I wouldn't do this. I wouldn't focus on this. I think there are more critical things that impact the country (inaudible).
PHILLIP: So, okay. All right. We got to leave it there. Michael, thank you. We got to leave it there.
NAVRRO: -- years criticizing Joe Biden. And never was there any fear that Joe Biden would come after you. I spent years criticizing Barack Obama. Not one day did I have fear that Barack Obama would weaponize the Department of Justice against me. What Donald Trump is doing is instilling fear in all of America so that there is no criticism, not from the media, not from the corporate moguls, not from people on TV, not from people who work for him. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. We got to go. Michael Moore, thank --
SINGLETON: -- waste the time to do this and not focus on governance is not criticism?
PHILLIP: We have to go. Michael Moore, thank you very much. Everyone else, thank you. We will be right back. Trump signed another executive order today based on a long time grievance of his, and it inspired, actually, our nightcap tonight. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:55:00]
PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for the news nightcap, daily grievance edition. President Trump signed an executive order today targeting water pressure in shower heads. So you each have a few seconds to tell us what executive order you would issue to fix a daily grievance. Shermichael?
SINGLETON: All right. So, I'm a fast driver. I like to drive in the fast lane. I hate when people drive slow in the fast lane. We need an E.O., you get a ticket. Maybe even put people in jail so that I can get to where the hell I want to go. No driving slow in the fast lane. That's my --
PHILLIP: You and my husband are on the same page. I know that.
SINGLETON: There we go. Shout out to your husband, Anthony.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Ana.
NAVARRO: Well, I was going to say how much I hate the cold. It's now what? Almost mid-April. It's supposed to be spring. People are wearing spring colors and it's still 30 degrees in New York. This is abominable. I would like an executive order to abolish cold weather after the month of February. I also would like people to answer questions that get asked directly.
SINGLETON: You just had to put that one at high.
CROSS: Yes.
SINGLETON: You just had to get that dig, huh?
PHILLIP: Yes. CROSS: Well, Ana, I don't want to make light of these EOs because
they are a very serious issue. But in the spirit of this conversation --
PHILLIP: I think you can make light of the shower, what? I'm sorry.
CROSS: Yes. Well, it's ridiculous. Well, some of his EOs are very damaging. But in spirit of this conversation, I would say, I would have an executive order. I do not want to hear your conversation on your phone. Use your headphones. If you're in public, I don't want to hear your conversation. And just as a common courtesy, younger people who grew up with these devices are losing social grace and just having speaker phone conversation.
PHILLIP: FaceTime conversation.
CROSS: FaceTime conversation. I don't like it at all. Please use your headphones. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, we got to get to Scott.
JENNINGS: More than 15 seconds at the coffee creamer bar at the coffee shop straight to El Salvador.
[02:59:56]
Two or more walking side by side on a sidewalk, you're gone, El Salvador. Recline your seat on an airplane, El Salvador. Disney adults, you're going too. And finally, pronouns in your e-mail signature. Out of here. Those are my EOs.
