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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
"NewsNight" Tackles What Is Happening With Federal Government, DOGE And Government Cuts. Aired 10:30-11p ET
Aired April 10, 2025 - 22:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:30:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, live at the table, Chris Sununu, Ashley Allison, Brad Todd and Neera Tanden. Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on-camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. You have been watching special CNN town hall where each party gave us a taste of how they're handling questions and concerns about the troubled economy and the impacts of Donald Trump's tariff wars.
We're here in the studio with our panel. One of the big topics of discussion was how all that is happening in Washington with the federal government and DOGE, how that is playing back home. And I think we saw some of the most pointed questions, including from some person who lost their job, about the cuts, about Elon Musk. Let me just give you a taste of how one of the Republicans, Congressman Ryan Mackenzie, is responding to some of those concerns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RYAN MACKENZIE (R) PENNSYLVANIA: Every administration is staffed with unelected individuals who are tasked to carry out the wishes of the President. That is every single administration. That is nothing new in the case of Elon Musk.
And so, what is happening right now is Democrats want to demonize the person that created and popularized the electric car. They created and popularized so many other great inventions because he wants to come in and look at waste, fraud and abuse. Again, they are fighting against change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: A couple of questions about this. I -- the unelected bureaucrats thing really struck out to me because I thought that the argument was that we don't want unelected bureaucrats making decisions, we want elected ones making the decisions. But now, it's okay if Elon Musk is unelected and making decisions about the size of the federal government?
CHRIS SUNUNU (R) FORMER NEW HAMPSIRE GOVERNOR: Well, the entire senior team is unelected, right? I mean, there's -- there's tons of senior people within the White House that are unelected that are carrying out the wishes of the President. So, that -- that is nothing new.
I think the key here is bad messaging, right? I mean, Elon is -- what he's doing, I think people appreciate waste, fraud and abuse. Let's go after it. But how he's messaging it, pulling up the chainsaw, being -- showing not an empathetic ear. I mean, we have to cut a lot of jobs, but you don't do without empathy and understanding that these are people's lives and all that.
So, I think that is where people are really where that rubber's meeting the road. People say, wait, there's got to be a better way to do this. There's got to be a better approach to do it and allow those congressmen and women, at least on -- on the right, to be able to defend what's happening and explain it a little better to the Americans.
PHILLIP: Did you get a sense if there was some defensiveness there? I don't know.
NEERA TANDEN, CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS ACTION FUND: A little bit.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
TANDEN: But I I mean, I guess I would disagree a little bit that it's messaging. I think there is a substantive issue here. One, in what's happening to people, and two, in how it's happening. So, when you essentially say you're going to cut off the Social Security phone lines and then perhaps turn them back on.
And when you say we're going to fire the workers around who are protecting us, protecting our nuclear safety, and then pull them back. You know, I mean, that's not efficiency. If you ran a company where the H.R. director fired a bunch of people and then had to hire them back and some of them came back and some of them didn't, you would say that's not efficient, that's actually incompetent.
And I think the real issue here is that there are real services to people, veterans who are providing services to other veterans to help them prevent suicide, other services that are really critical to people that perhaps Elon Musk from Silicon Valley does not really have deep knowledge about.
And I think what the concern is -- is that we know when Congressman -- when the Congressman was talking about this, he was really talking about how, you know, we still have discretion. We still -- Congress is still acting.
PHILLIP: Right.
TANDEN: Congress hasn't done a -- ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah.
TANDEN: -- damn thing, I'm sorry, to actually say, no, you can't do this, Elon Musk. Because actually, it's not just cuts. He's -- he's basically destroying whole agencies, and that's Congress' responsibility to say whether these agencies should work or not. Base not -- basically destroy them by firing everyone who works at them.
ALLISON: I appreciate what you said, Governor, because I feel like I mean, I haven't been glued to the television 24-7 since Donald Trump has taken office for my own mental health. But I feel like this is one of the first times I've actually heard a Republican talk about the humanity of the people who are losing their jobs.
[22:35:04]
And that has been what is so, like --
TANDEN: That's really true.
ALLISON: -- disheartening to me is, we might have to shrink the federal government because it did expand over the inviting years because of COVID, and they were trying to fix a problem. And there may be waste, fraud and abuse, and we want to.
But it just felt like the callousness in which Elon has been doing it and the lack of empathy for Americans who are public servants that felt so out of touch. It's not like, oh, it just happens. Well, no, you made a choice, didn't just happen.
And I think the other thing though that is, like, near -- near to your point also is that, then there are just mistakes. Then there are -- there is, like, there's the lack of humanity and then the incompetence with it. And I think if there was a different approach with not even maybe, like, can we find the middle between a surgical approach and a chainsaw? Like, can we at least meet in the middle of there?
And then the final thing I would just say is, like, the discretion that Congress, those are actually elected. I don't mind the Elon Musk. I was not an elected member of the White House, and I worked there. That's how government works. But the fact that those people on the stage, particularly the Republicans, were elected, and they were -- they've just been passive.
PHILLIP: Well, one of the -- I mean, Congressman Mackenzie, he sort of said, well, we'll take a look at what Elon and DOGE are suggesting, and then we might act on it. And we will pull it back if we don't think it's -- it's the right step to do, but that's completely backwards of how this is supposed to work.
The other thing is we've had Congressman Lawler here on this show before and -- and asked him about - push -- he's pushed back on cuts to Social Security offices in his state and in his district or the neighboring district. They're going piecemeal thing by thing, going to the administration and saying, save this thing in my district. Save this thing in my district. SUNUNU: That's what they're supposed to do.
PHILLIP: Yeah, but what that is -- that is like no way to run the government where unless you are represented by a Republican with ties to the White House, you might get screwed in all of that.
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well --
TANDEN: But it's you, just -- I'm sorry.
TODD: That's been the case with representative government forever, by the way. That's the push and pull with -- with this. And we have people that's why we have people representing districts.
PHILLIP: But that should not be the exception and not the rule.
TODD: That's the way the system's designed. But I want to go back to your point about empathy for a minute. And certainly, Elon Musk could be kinder or -- and gentler in some of his language. That would probably be better and probably help him achieve his political objectives.
But Washington's not been very kind or empathetic with the taxpayers as it's grown this government out of control. And I -- I think that a lot of taxpayers out there look at what's happening, and they say it's about damn time somebody actually took a chainsaw to some of this.
Now, that doesn't mean there's not some room around the edges, but we've allowed a government to get way bigger than almost any of us want. And nobody ever makes a real effort to change it. And the burden is on this administration to prove it could be a disruptor. And to prove that this is not going to be yet another case of someone promising to cut waste, fraud, and abuse and then not doing anything about it.
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: I mean, there's a lot of -- can I just respond to that?
PHILLIP: Yeah, go ahead.
TANDEN: There's a lot of things that we should look at in the federal government. One thing we could look at, the area that we spend the most money is tax expenditures. It's ways we give tax breaks.
TODD: It's not spending money to let people take their money.
TANDEN: Tax breaks --specific tax breaks for oil and gas companies. Are you sure?
TODD: It's not spending. It's not spending. It's not spending.
TANDEN: Are you sure when we said you have a specific tax break from your own company -- okay.
TODD: No, spending is when -- spending is when the government does things to grow the government.
TANDEN: So then, there's the other thing about it.
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: I thought that this was really an important debate during this conversation with the members of Congress. Because you have DOGE that is saying, we need to cut all this spending. We need to do all this to ensure that we can get a handle on our deficit.
Then you have Republicans in Congress actually passing legislation or trying to pass legislation that will add five to $7 trillion to our national debt. Five to seven trillion with a T to our national debt.
TODD: So, are you advocating for a tax increase issue?
TANDEN: I'm not advocating for a tax increase. What I am advocating --
TODD: Well, that's what's going to happen when you, you know --
TANDEN: -- you know, we could easily say no tax cuts for anyone who makes over 500,000 --600, 000.
TODD: The argument is whether taxes should go up.
TANDEN: Every Republican voted against an amendment that said all the tax cuts -- we should have cuts only for people making less than $1 billion. And every Republican voted no because, why? Their tax plan is skewed towards the hyper, hyper rich as you ask for, massive cuts --
TODD: No, the tax code is skewed toward the rich.
TANDEN: Okay.
TODD: If you make money, you pay taxes.
TANDEN: Fix that.
TODD: If you -- no, no. The code is steep.
TANDEN: Make that better. Make that better, Sir. But you don't want to.
TODD: If you pay taxes-- if you make if you make money, you will pay more taxes. That's the -- that's the nature of progressive system.
TANDEN: Congress is making a decision to add essentially billions of dollars to tax cuts for the super rich.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: It's not a tax cut. It's not a tax cut.
TANDEN: It is a tax cut.
TODD: It's not.
TANDEN: They are increasing tax cuts for the billionaires.
TODD: They're trying to keep the rates the same.
TANDEN: That's false.
TODD: They're trying to keep the rates the same.
[22:40:00]
TANDEN: That's -- what you are saying -- what you are saying --
TODD: Should the rates stay the same.
TANDEN: Absolutely false.
TODD: No. January one --
TANDEN: I do not think Donald Trump's taxes -- tax cuts for billionaires are something that we need to extend another ten years.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: Wait. But Neera, it's not a tax cut. Right now --
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: It is a tax cut. It is a tax cut.
TODD: So, you're saying -- you're saying -- hold on. You're saying the tax rate should go up on January one of 2026.
TANDEN: For billionaires, I'm okay with that.
TODD: Is this -- is this --
TANDEN: I'm actually okay with billionaires paying a little bit more.
TODD: How about the standard deduction?
TANDEN: Paying a little more.
TODD: Every Democrat in Congress voted to double the state -- cut in half the standard deduction.
TANDEN: My friend, I am happy to meet you on saying we should have a tax plan where everyone under $500,000 keeps their taxes.
TODD: Where's the Democrats?
TANDEN: $700,000.
TODD: Where are the Democrats trying to negotiate with Donald Trump?
TANDEN: I'm giving you an idea but you won't say yes to it. PHILLIP: Let me ask a question here.
SUNUNU: I don't think anybody's taxes are going up.
PHILLIP: Let me ask a question here because I think that they're -- that one of the reasons that I think this is an important debate is because I think the -- the rhetoric and then the actions are not aligning here. Republicans say that we are going to be crushed under the burden of debt, that our kids are going to inherit all of this debt, and that we have a responsibility -- to be fiscally responsible to at least attempt to balance the budget.
Now, Republicans are in power, and there is not even a single conversation about doing that. No one is talking about trying to -- to be fiscally responsible, to not spend or have expenditures without paying for it. Why is that?
TODD: Well, I could tell you, the Democrat Party has moved radically left, and Bill Clinton was in charge --
ALLISON: Not a Democrat.
TANDEN: What are we talking about?
ALLISON: Remember, I was eight.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: Hold on. When Bill Clinton was in charge -- when Bill Clinton was in charge, the Democrats balanced the budget.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, let me -- all right. Let me get the answer to the question. Go ahead.
TODD: Well, Bill Clinton -- when Bill Clinton's in power, Democrats balanced the budget. They passed a bill to cut 400,000 people out of the federal government. Fifty-five Democrats voted for it. You couldn't find five that would vote for that today.
PHILLIP: That's not true. Listen. There is --there is actually a DOGE caucus. Hold on. There's a DOGE caucus right now that -- that was prepared to work with this administration on cuts. What happened was that the administration decided they didn't want to do that.
They were just going to do it single handedly, that they could have stood up a bipartisan commission to cut the federal government the way Bill Clinton did with Republicans in Congress. They did not do that. So, why?
TODD: Wait a minute. Tonight in our town hall, Jahana Hayes, the representative of Connecticut was asked, does she agree with any cuts that Elon Musk -- but she can't do it.
ALLISON: She did. PHILLIP: But wait. But why did this administration not take leadership and say, let's stand up a bipartisan cut in the government?
SUNUNU: Congress is completely useless over 20 years when it comes to being fiscally responsible. They've done nothing. So, you're absolutely right, Abby. You said it's kind of a backwards process. And what Trump has basically said is, Republicans and Democrats alike when it comes to being fiscally responsible, you've done nothing.
You talk about waste, fraud and abuse -- you've done nothing. So we're going to do it. Now, that has to be backed up and what you'll see is vote will bring -- Rust vote will bring bills, rescission bills over the next year or so that kind of back up what DOGE is doing and that's a very important piece -- piece of this.
So, Trump is the only president in the last 25 years that has actually tweeted out and publicly used the words "Balanced budget, balance it now."
PHILLIP: All right.
SUNUNU: He's trying to drive forward, and you're right.
PHILLIP: Let's -- let's talk first one second about some numbers. So, I think this is super important. You're -- you're talking about balancing a budget in the context of DOGE. Here is what DOGE has estimated to have saved according to its own website. This is what Elon now says is going to be the target, $150 billion in its first year. We're not even in the vague ballpark of the promised two trillion or then the lowered $1 trillion.
TODD: Should we not start?
PHILLIP: No. I'm not saying not to start.
SUNUNU: This is 90 days in.
PHILLIP: No, no.
SUNUNU: This is 90 days in the most complex government system on the planet.
TODD: They need to start somewhere.
PHILLIP: Saying that this is where they're going to end up for the -- for 2025, okay?
SUNUNU: Which is $150 billion more than any president in the last 25 years.
PHILLIP: Great. Fine. But it does not get you close to a balanced budget. How do you get there? How do you get there?
SUNUNU: Well, there's no doubt to get there, you're going to have to start eventually dealing with entitlement reform, which, again, Nancy Pelosi and Bernie Sanders said, there's massive waste and fraud in Medicare. We got to go after it. Social Security goes bankrupt in eight and -- eight, nine years, guys. And when that happens, guess what? Yes, it does. And you get -- you lose 20 percent of your benefits at that point. That's in law.
So, someone's going to have to come in and adjust Social Security to deal with that. And DOGE is literally 90 in -- 100 days in, and they've already found $150 billion.
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: Wait till they get to Defense. Wait till they get to --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, let, me just --
SUNUNU: It's barely getting started.
PHILLIP: I want to play because it's -- it's good. So, let's just play it because this is Elon, what he said all the -- this time about what they're going to do and what they're not going to do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, ADVISER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, I -- I think we -- we can do at least two trillion.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
MUSK: I think - I think we will -- we will try for two trillion. I think that's like the best case outcome. If we try for two trillion, we've got a good shot at getting one.
LARRY KUDLOW, FOX NEWS HOST: You think you'll wind up getting to a trillion dollars?
MUSK: Yeah.
KUDLOW: Of savings?
MUSK: I mean, unless someone's -- unless we're unless we're stopped, we'll -- we will get to a trillion dollars of savings. I think we will have accomplished most of the work required to reduce the deficit by a trillion dollars within that time frame.
BRET NAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: So, in that time frame, 130 days.
MUSK: Yes. Thanks to, your fantastic leadership, this amazing cabinet, and the very talented DOGE team, I'm excited to announce that, we -- we anticipate savings in FY26 from reduction of waste and fraud by $150 billion.
[22:45:09]
PHILLIP: All right. So, that's by the -- that's by the end of the fiscal year, okay? So, not -- not six months or whatever. Look, the reason I'm bringing this up is because everybody knows that the math is not mathing. Even when they eliminate entire departments, they are not getting close to the -- the numbers that they need to get to deal with spending by just slashing.
SUNUNU: So, you're saying that they should go harder, is what you're saying? And cut more -- I agree.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, I'm saying, is that a rational government would come up with a plan, a bipartisan plan, and that they would legislate that plan. But that -- they seem to have no interest in doing that.
SUNUNU: They're cowards. No. It's not interest. It's fear. They have no courage, whatsoever. The Democrats and Republicans right now in Congress -- I just decided I wasn't running for senate, partially because I don't think that they have the, sorry, the balls (ph) to do what has to be done -- excuse me.
TANDEN: Can we say that?
SUNUNU: -- to really -- it's a serious issue.
TANDEN: Yes.
SUNUNU: And they talk a good game and they do nothing. So, you know, let's give Trump a little credit for saying, I'm willing to do the hard things. I'm willing to do things no one else has ever tried. Whether it's closing a border, going after DOGE, finding efficiency, having to cut government workers when you have to do it. I think his team, if anything, is failing him
ALLISON: I have a question.
SUNUNU: And they make mistakes. As a leader, when as governor, when I was willing to make tough decisions, the team had to carry it out flawlessly. And it's hard, but his team is letting him down, if anything.
PHILLIP: So, I'm fascinated by this because you're -- you are out of the Senate race because you -- your party's in power right now. In the senate, you're probably good for, like, at least the next two to four years. But you don't think that that's going to be a place where you can get anything done even with the entire control of the federal government?
SUNUNU: I'm more -- I'm more didn't run because it wasn't -- wasn't right for me and my family and all that sort of thing. But you need 51 votes, and you need to work across the aisle, and you need to do certain things to do what has never been done. Guys, the debt is building. This isn't politics. It is math.
ALLISON: No. I get it. I get it.
TANDEN: I guess -- ALLISON: We just have a couple questions for the table. Can we reach a trillion dollars in cut with I mean, you talked about entitlements, without touching Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security?
SUNUNU: No. No, we can't.
ALLISON: Okay. So -- so, that means -- and so, I think this is what came up in --- it's like the devil is in the details and all. And I think that, actually, Republicans are really good with these, like, top line one liners. They're, like, make voters interested.
But then when you actually get to the details of it, it's the thing that gets the -- the House and the Senate's phone lines ringing, which is why they don't have the courage because they actually won't do the -- the governing of the people. You can't do what Elon is saying he's doing without touching the programs that American people don't want to get touched. And yet --
SUNUNU: No, Congress doesn't want them to get touched. Americans will accept it.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Americans will accept it? Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security?
PHILLIP: I don't know.
SUNUNU: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: What are those adjustments?
SUNUNU: Just move the retirement age.
ALLISON: Oh.
SUNUNU: Just move retirement -- 62 or 64, whatever it is. That's insane.
TANDEN: It's 67 just for --
SUNUNU: No young person thinks that retirement should be in the in the mid 60's or 67. No young people think --
TANDEN: And then it was raised from 62 to 67. Look, can I just go back to this --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I like to think I'm young and I want to be done now.
PHILLIP: I'm going to let Neera --
SUNUNU: You got to make tough decisions. That's legal. PHILLLIP: Neera.
TANDEN: I -- I think this is such an odd debate in a sense because it's like we want to give Donald Trump credit for very painful pennies, but we don't want to acknowledge the fact that he is right now advocating for a tax plan that will increase the debt and deficit by five to $7 trillion.
So, I -- I believe in fiscal responsibility, but you have to acknowledge your party right now is saying, we are going to dramatically expand the debt and deficit of this country just-- just to say for the record, like they did in the first term where they did this gigantic tax cut totally unpaid for that dramatically increased the debt. These aren't my numbers.
UNKNOWN: You now what? I do a lot of work on--
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Promises that Trump made that he also cannot pay for. No taxes on Social Security. No taxes on tips. Not to say that those are not ideas that are popular or good. It's just that the honesty about how they get paid for is not on the table, as well.
ALLISON: Yes, yes.
TODD: Let me tell you what. If Democrats spend the midterm saying that we - we -- taxes should have gone up more --
ALLISON: We won't.
TODD: Tips shouldn't have been -- should be continued to be taxed.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: I'm all for the Democrats approaching this midterm running on a platform that taxes should go up, and that's what's going to happen. You can call it whatever, a tax cut, whatever you want.
ALLISON: I'm all for -- I'm all for --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: It's a tax increase.
ALLISON: -- I'm all for Republicans running that the retirement age should go up to 75 because when that came up in the Republican primary, people got taken out. Like, that is not a -- a opinion that is held widely by the -- the American people.
TODD: Because they all think the government's trying to tighten its own belt.
PHILLIP: Can I ask you a question? Look, okay. Democrats would like to run on raising taxes on the rich --
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- because that actually polls quite well.
ALLISON: Yeah.
PHILLIP: I mean, do you think --
TODD: The rates are going up on everybody.
PHILLIP: Okay. No, no.
[22:50:00]
TODD: Everybody -- Americans who are --
TANDEN: We are all for lowering taxes on the middle class.
PHILLIP: Hang on a second here. Hang on a second, okay?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We -- Congress -- it is possible to extend tax cuts for lower, people who make, let's say, a million dollars. Let's put it in a million dollars. People who make less than a million dollars and let the taxes go up on everybody else. If Democrats ran on that, I mean, is that really going to be --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: This is the answer to that question. You're going to get a vote. Do we keep the tax rates as they are now, or do you raise them on some people?
PHILLIP: The only reason that it's a yes or the only reason that it would be a yes or no on all or nothing is because Republicans take it back.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: If Democrats --
TODD: God created Republicans to stop tax increases, that's what we're here for.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, I -- I get that we are just extremely --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Yes, but finish this sentence. If you stop raising taxes on the rich, then you have to cut Medicaid and Social Security.
PHILLIP: But --
(CROSSTALK) ALLISON: And when you finish the sentence, this is what I mean, is that you have good one liners, but when the comma comes and the rest of the sentence ends with a period or an exclamation point, the voters don't like it.
If you said -- let's just say -- let's just say raise taxes on people who make more than $5 million because I -- I remember during this election cycle, there were people in Florida who had votes, but, you know, like, maybe they're first generational wealth --wealth generators.
And there's a lot of people of color, young people. But the billionaires need to pay their fair share. And if they were able to pay their fair share --are you a billionaire? Like, why are you playing so hard for them?
TODD: Not close. Not close. I work for CNN. Not close.
ALLISON: Me, too.
SUNUNU: And look, that's less about raising the taxes and more about cutting out the loopholes, right? Right? There -- there are lots of loopholes in terms of --
ALLISON: Yes, yes. Cut those loopholes, exactly. SUNUNU: And remember when the Democrats --
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: -- presidency? They did nothing to stop it.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
SUNUNU: Zero. So, don't sit there and somehow -- zero. Nothing. Where was the plan? Where was the Biden proposal? What got done?
TANDEN: We did.
SUNUNU: They were full of it. They were full of it.
TANDEN: Just for the record, we did actually --
SUNUNU: What?
TANDEN: -- increase some taxes on the very wealthy and so did Obama. And, actually, just to say, the deficits did come down under Joe Biden.
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: You didn't extend the --
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: --for regular Americans. TANDEN: The deficits did increase under Donald Trump. Just to say, when we're talking about just facts here, deficits -- the deficit increased dramatically during Trump's first term and actually came down during Biden and the Biden administration. But do you know where are the here and now, now? And everyone's going to have a vote.
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: I don't know with the math on that. That's lunacy. That's lunacy.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Wait, wait. Hold on.
SUNUNU: That Biden brought down the deficit. I can't even respond to that.
UNKNOWN: Let's have a look. Let's have a look.
TANDEN: (inaudible) did actually bring down the deficit. I'm sorry.
PHILLIP: Layered on top of all of this are Trump's tariffs, okay? We cannot -- we cannot avoid them, right? And I think the people --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Let's talk about taxes some more. We should --
ALLISON: I bet you want to. I bet you want to.
TANDEN: I was like, well, we are. Tariffs are --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You don't want to talk about tariffs. Look, $4400 a year for the average American household, layered on top of everything that we just discussed, the anxiety, the insecurity, the questions about whether or not people are going to have jobs and their -- their 401K's are going to be okay. I mean, this is a kind of a toxic stew politically, it seems like, for this president, and I'm not sure he cares.
SUNUNU: Wait. Well, that's why he's going so fast, right? He's getting -- he's trying to do the hard stuff early and fast. Hopefully, get these countries to renegotiate their deals. And supposedly, there's now 70 countries that want to renegotiate their trade deals with us. That's a very good thing by the way.
PHILLIP: Supposedly --
SUNUNU: Okay.
PHILLIP: -- but they refused to say which countries they are.
SUNUNU: But here's the benefit. PHILLIP: And also are we going to get that done in 90 days, things that have taken 18 months in five years and 10 years?
SUNUNU: Well, let's give them credit. They gave themselves 90 days. They've put themselves in a bit of a box.
ALLISON: They never had to give themselves 90 days that they have put --
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: They said we're going to get something done in 90 days. So, they've put the pressure on themselves to show because, by the way, if these deals don't get done in 90 days and the tariffs go back, the market's going to crater even more.
PHILLIP: Why? Cash at point, but why?
ALLISON: You did it to yourself.
PHILLIP: You know, Trump, I think, could have pursued a strategy that really went after China --
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- and was really surgical about that because that's obviously --
ALLSION: And it would have been bipartisan, actually.
PHILLIP: --that's the whole ballgame.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: If it didn't have Trump's name on it, Democrats won't help him do anything.
TANDEN: Just for the record, we the Trump tariffs exist now, okay? There's a 10 percent tariff across the board. There's not targeted tariffs on China. There are massive tariffs on China. There are tariffs on Canada, and there's tech tariffs on Mexico.
And so, we should just all live with the fact that Trump's policies are going to dramatically increase the cost of your child's car seat, your car -- your child's soccer ball. These are not just even with the ninety day pause, you know, Playstations.
Americans, I thought, I've been informed by lots of Republicans, that Americans wanted lower prices. And what they are getting in the first two and a half months of this administration is the highest price increases across the board.
SUNUNU: That's not true, guys. That's not true.
TANDEN: They are going to --
TODD: March showed the first year over year drop in since 2020.
TANDEN: Tariffs are coming into April.
TODD: You just said you said the first two and a half months. You said the first two and a half months.
[22:55:00]
TANDEN: No. And then yes. What I'm saying is --
TODD: Right, the first three months stats --
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: -- people are -- what they're saying -- one of the reasons why the bond market is going crazy as we speak, just like it did Tuesday night, is because people are recognizing that these are going to be tax increase price increases that are going to feel like tax increases that are all the product of one man.
We have a discussion about recession. Thirty-five percent chance by one group, by -- by Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan, fifty percent. We- no one was talking about recession four months ago. People are talking about recession. Why? Because of the policies of one man. This has never happened before.
TODD: The Democrat platform shaping up. Raise taxes.
ALLISON: No.
TODD: Be easy on China.
ALLISON: No.
TODD: And don't cut government spending at all.
TANDEN: That's not accurate.
TODD: The only thing we haven't talked about is the border.
TANDEN: That's not true.
TODD: And tonight, Jahana Hayes, the congresswoman from Connecticut, is saying she regrets the vote for the Laken Riley Act. I mean, Democrats have learned nothing from the last election, and that's where they're ahead in the midterms right now.
TANDEN: People like lower prices.
ALLISON: No, I guarantee that won't be the democratic message for the midterm.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. We're going to hit pause. We're going to hit a quick pause on this conversation to be continued. Coming up next, we're going to continue this debate. And joining us at the table, a self-proclaimed MAGA lefty who argues that the tariffs are going to help bring masculinity back to America.
Plus, more breaking news tonight. The Supreme Court ruling that Trump must, in fact, facilitate the return of a wrongfully deported man even though the administration has claimed that they can't. Stand by for that.
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