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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

Trump Pushes Global Economy To The Brink With Wars; China Retaliates Again, Raising Tariffs On U.S. To 125 Percent; White House Official On Trump Tariff Chaos, He Just Loves This Shit; President Trump Takes A Physical Exam; Louisiana Immigration Judge Says Trump Administration Can Remove Mahmoud Khalil From U.S. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 11, 2025 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, birds of a feather who stick together or a contest to see who can whisper louder in the president's ear? New and startling details from inside Donald Trump's economic team as Wall Street wonders if Trump's madman act isn't an act.

Plus, a judicial green light to deport a college student gives great power to the secretary of state to ship people out of the country for simply saying things the administration doesn't like.

And Donald Trump redecorates the White House in his image quite literally.

Live at the table, Ashley Allison, Abel Maldonado, Melik Abdul and Christine Quinn.

Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

Let's get right to what America's talking about. The White House wants America to trust Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Americans should trust in that process. He wants consumers to trust in him and they should trust in him.

Trust in President Trump. He knows what he's doing.

I think the president is asking for Americans trust in Trump. As I just said, trust in his economic agenda and formula. It's a proven formula that works.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: But Americans are still trying to figure out if there is a process at all, much less if it is working. Signs are the economy and American confidences are waning. Consumer sentiment sank 11 percent just this month. It's down more than 30 percent since December. The future of bond markets, as one of America's most respected economic voices, Jamie Dimon spooked. He's warning that there will be some kind of kerfuffle, and when that happens, the fed will have to intervene. The speed and the sharpness of the American economic retreat is so quick and so pointy elbowed that Wall Street is having a think.

Here is the thought that is troubling investors the most. Does the president have all of his marbles? This is a quote. Their concern is that the White House is not acting rationally, but rather on ideology. A few have quietly wondered if the president might be insane. That's a real, quote.

Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Natasha Sarin. She is the president of the Budget Lab at Yale and a former Treasury Department official in the Biden administration.

Natasha, the White House is basically saying, don't you worry, everything's going to be all right. But the markets -- I think they're also just kind of ignoring also what has happened the last two days, Thursday and Friday. The markets are still all over the place and we're getting some pretty stark warnings.

I just want to play real quick what BlackRock CEO Larry Fink said this morning, and he's pretty crystal clear about where he sees the United States and the world heading.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY FINK, CEO, BLACKROCK: Yes, I do believe we're probably starting, if not, we're in a recession. United States post-World War II was a global stabilizer. We are the global destabilize right now. And that's a very -- you know, that's a very hard thing to say.

Long-term, I'm less worried about some of these issues, but in the short run, I'm petrified at some of these issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Petrified. Is that the sentiment?

NATASHA SARIN, PRESIDENT, THE BUDGET LAB AT YALE: That is the sentiment, and it's a totally understandable sentiment because you're in a situation where the stock market, in response to Trump's liberation day, declined more in three days than it has at any moment since the financial crisis. You're in a situation where this White House announced a pause on tariffs, the reciprocal tariffs, but in reality, the tariff rates that exist today with the higher tariff on China at 145 percent and a 10 percent reciprocal across the board tariff. They mean that we're basically in the same place that we were a week ago. And the market feels that, and not just the stock market feels that the thing that's kind of terrifying and why you have Jamie Dimon concerned and Larry Fink concerned is that, at the same time as the stock market isn't doing well, you have the bond market not doing well.

And what you have is a real concern that the dollar, which typically in moments of economic distress and economic turmoil, people fly into the dollar. They're like the dollar is the safe asset of the world.

[22:05:00]

American dollar dominance, the currency is strong. People are actually moving away from the dollar because of this instability.

And I think that's really concerning. And I think, frankly, the consumer sentiment numbers show you that the American people feel that's really concerning and they feel it's really concerning after two days of incredibly good inflation data.

PHILLIP: Should the White House, Abel, be transparent that Trump is willing to sacrifice the economy in the near term for his longer term ideological goals? Because that seems like what is actually happening here.

ABEL MALDONADO (R) FORMER CALIFORNIA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: Well, he's not sacrificing the economy, Abby. When you hear trust in Trump from Karoline, 77.3 million people voted for Donald J. Trump.

He's been talking about tariffs for a long, long time. The rollout of the press conference, Abby, I might disagree with the way it happened. And, you know, and I can say to myself, you know what, maybe we should have put the 90-day negotiations first and then come back and put tariffs through, there's no negotiations.

PHILLIP: That's an idea. That would be a great idea.

MALDONADO: We kind of agree on that.

However, look, we've got a situation now where, yes, everybody says the economy might be going into recession, Abby. I think it might be close, but we're not in a recession at this point in time. And I think that's why President Trump's pro-growth policies are very, very important.

And we're going to talk more about that here at the table, but DOGE lowering taxes, lighter regulations, there's a lot that can be done to improve this economy real quickly,

SARIN: Can I just say one thing about lowering taxes? So, it's true that the president campaigned on this pro-growth, were going to do a lot of tax cuts, were going to extend the Trump tax cuts. But in reality, what's been imposed by this administration, through this trade war that he kind of unilaterally ignited, is the largest tax increase on American families in modern history. The average family, as a result of these tariffs that are in place, is going to face price increases of $4,800. Those are calculations I've done with my colleagues at the Yale Budget Lab. It's going to start happening over the course of the next months ahead. And the reason why it's going to start happening is these tariffs are now in place. You are in a situation where Chinese goods are facing extraordinarily significant tariffs, and the result of that is that textile prices are going to go up by 70 percent in the short run. Consumer electronics, things like your iPhones or your laptops, prices are going to go up by double digits.

And the American people, it's so shocking to me all of this, and perhaps you all can help shed some light. I'm confused by it because if anything, the 2024 election was really a referendum, at least in part on inflation, and consumers felt the pain of higher prices. And so why this administration has decided that it wants to execute a trade war that's going to do exactly that, it's going to raise consumer prices? It just seems kind of surprising.

PHILLIP: That is the question, right?

CHRISTINE QUINN (D), FORMER SPEAKER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: And, look, the president, if you want to boil it down to one thing, he won the election on the price of eggs.

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yep.

QUINN: Right? That's real.

ALLISON: It's all about the eggs.

QUINN: All about the eggs, all about, you know, your mom and pop pocketbooks. And what they're doing has not helped with the price of eggs, has put the price of, as you've said, basically almost everything up, while Americans are watching their retirement funds dry up because of the stock market.

I can't tell you how many people have raised their fears of not being able to retire to me over the past couple of weeks. That's real, and it is not what people voted for. And that's why you're seeing so much outrage at the town halls the Republicans used to have. Make no mistake, they've stopped being in public.

PHILLIP: So, in addition to all of this what I think one thing that's interesting is looking at the tourism numbers. There are some data coming out about Europeans traveling to the United States. It's down, according to this, by 35 percent.

To me, that is a combination of a lot of things. It's like the United States just being a weird place right now. Like people are just like, what is going on, concerns about just traveling to the U.S. and getting plucked off the street by immigration officials. It's a lot of things and all of it started with Donald Trump.

So, again, to your point, Trump campaigned on making the United States the economic envy of the world and the world is basically saying, we don't want to come here. We don't want your dollar, like all of that.

ALLISON: I think that, look, Donald Trump did run on tariffs. I think -- MELIK ABDUL, REPUBLICAN POLITICAL STRATEGIST: He did?

ALLISON: -- I hope -- yes, he did. I think, and I hope though the American people thought he would be a little more responsible in the application of it.

I don't think tariffs are wrong across the board. I think they can have a utility, but the aggressive tenor of which is he applied them, to destabilize the market, to really hurt -- we all -- we heard about working class people.

[22:10:04]

I was talking to somebody today that was blood -- literally, the doctor put him on blood pressure medicine because they were looking at their 401(k).

PHILLIP: Oh God.

ALLISON: Like this is having real life consequences for folks. Some people work their whole life just with the hope and a prayer that they can retire because of their 401(k). You're taught that's the responsible thing to do. Well, we need our leaders to be responsible too, and not just mismanaging it.

Everything's not going to happen at once, but I do think you said people voted for it. I don't think people voted for their draining of the 401(k). I don't think people voted for prices to go up. I don't think people voted for short-term pain. And the question is, will it be a recession? It is a luxury to say we are not in a recession now, but the fact that we have to say now because of the behavior of our president, that's going to be problematic.

PHILLIP: Well, you're a business owner.

MALDONADO: You're for tariffs. You're okay with tariff. So, 10 percent across the board for you are okay?

ALLISON: No. I think if he was -- if he wanted to really do get into a negotiation with China because of national security issues, he didn't have to put them on islands where there were no humans. Like he could have done it in a much more surgical way, just like he could have done DOGE in a much more surgical way.

The approach is, whomp, just like, just take it out. And most likely when you destabilize things like that, it's hard to bring it back. And the people who are at the margins, the people who are lower or are not even just in the lower socioeconomic status, even the middle class, they suffer.

PHILLIP: Abel, as a business owner -- just real quick, as a business owner, are you worried that consumer demand is going to start to drop because people are worried about what's going to happen the rest of this year?

MALDONADO: Abby, I'm a supply and demand kind of a person. I think that's how business operates. So, a 10 percent tariff on products, I don't have a problem with if it brings back American jobs.

PHILLIP: I'm just talking about people buying what you're selling, right? And when families start to feel like, oh, I don't know what's going to happen, maybe I might have my job, maybe I might not get that bonus, they're going to start to cut back. I mean --

MALDONADO: But, Abby, like, for example, California is kind of in a different island because California's a specialty crop state where you have all the vegetables. Now the Midwest is a totally different ballgame where they sell to China. The farmers in the Midwest and in the south, they are connected to free trade, to fair trade, so it affects them more.

ALLISON: Aren't those Trump voters, right?

MALDONADO: Yes, no doubt. No doubt, the Trump voters. But we're all saying here at the table that all of a sudden we've lost our 401(k), it's been a week. So, let's let this play out. I mean --

ABDUL: I'll just say this. There were some good news that we could be talking about, you know, the inflationary numbers, the gas prices are down, and I'll say this, and we've talked about it on the show before. $8.99 were the price of those eggs a few weeks ago. I went to the store at my local giant, it was $4.35 for eggs. So, eggs have gone down.

I think the problem that I see with --

PHILLIP: I guess what the point was the latest report was that for March they spiked back up to a high. There's a bit of a delay between what's in those reports and what you see in your grocery store, but that's --

ABDUL: Sure. And for me, that's what it -- like my pocketbook is what I see, my wallet is what I see in the store. And I know that when I went literally on yesterday, the cost of eggs were actually down.

I think the problem that the Trump administration has here it's -- you know, one of these things is that people talk about. They say that Donald Trump -- this is something that he's talked about for years. And I think that that was more of an experiment. It is one thing to talk about it, but it is another thing to actually do it. And I think in Donald Trump's case, many of the things that he's talked about, you know, you have the White House press secretary and many people saying, initially, well, these are no negotiation, these things are permanent. Then it kind of move to, well, we're going to negotiate a little bit. And if you listen to what Donald Trump said earlier this week, and he also said it, I was watching CNN earlier, about an hour ago, Donald Trump, when asked the question about the markets, he said himself, he said, well, I responded to that, because they were having concerns about the market.

So, Donald Trump himself, he's not consistent in what he's saying. And I think that this is more of an experiment.

PHILLIP: Yes. You know, in order to negotiate, you got to have a negotiating partner. And China has said, no, thank you. Here's the meme from the Chinese embassy. You give the bully an inch and he will take a mile. And then they tweeted out basically a cartoon mocking Trump, basically saying, don't retaliate and you'll get rewarded.

And, I mean, the Chinese are, first of all, not taking Trump's calls. They don't want to call him and they won't take his calls. They're also saying they are going to fight to the end. I mean, Natasha, I feel like the history has told us they can absorb a lot of pain. They have a completely different political system that allows for that.

[22:15:00]

I don't know that Trump has factored that in.

SARIN: And, honestly, you saw the Chinese saying today these tariffs are a joke. It is like comical what the administration is trying to do. And you're in a situation where we are in a trade war at the moment, so you've seen retaliatory measures by the Chinese and then ratcheting up by us and they're committed. And to your point, Abby, they have a lot of political capital that is going to enable them to be able to push and to be able to withstand a lot of this pain.

The question that I have that sort of keeps coming up as we talk about the Trump trade wars is a lot of the conversation, and what the Trump administration has said is, you know, this is short-term pain for some end. And, genuinely, I do not understand what the objective is, what we are seeking to accomplish here. Because if what we're seeking to accomplish is we're going to use the revenue from the tariffs to do tax cuts and we're going to revitalize American manufacturing, what that is going to require is permanently high tariff rates at levels that this country hasn't seen in the last century.

QUINN: And also a plan to where are these manufacturing jobs going to exist. There's no plan to --

(CROSSTALKS)

PHILLIP: Yes, to be continued.

Coming up next for us, new reporting suggests that Trump is, quote, loving this shit and why his team of rivals inside the White House are being called angels and demons.

Plus, a significant ruling, a judge says Trump can deport a pro- Palestinian college student. Another special guest who's going to join us at the table.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:20:00]

PHILLIP: Tonight, what's giving traitors an average American's financial panic attacks is apparently giving the president life. New behind-the-scenes reporting from CNN's White House team captures the mood and the mindset of Donald Trump. He is, according to sources, reveling in being the Gordon Gecko president, and he's insistent on putting himself at the center of every negotiation and every trade deal that is to come and grading every deal by a scorecard of his own making and metrics that no one but him is privy to.

A senior White House aide describing the vibes in blunt terms, he just loves this shit. Talking deals with the most powerful people in the world when he's got all the cards and leverage is like air for him.

That's an interesting interpretation of where we are. I think maybe we have a ton of leverage when it comes to some of these smaller companies and the European nations and all of that stuff, but he has not articulated -- the whole ball game is Asia, okay? He has not articulated a plan for that.

And I think one of the things that's emerging is that within his team, he's got two sets of people, right. The trade people who just want to fight to the end, kind of like China, and the Wall Street people, like Scott Bessent, the Treasury Secretary, Kevin Hassett, they're pretty respected on the street, people know them, they came from that world, and they're urging a more moderated approach.

Natasha, do we know where this is going to land?

SARIN: It's almost like -- and we kind of knew this during the campaign as well, that there are these two different strands, right? There is the like pro-growth, investment, tax cuts, create jobs. I don't know the extent to which the empirics actually bears all of that out, but it's one strand. And this other strand that's almost like a return to a world where we're a much more closed economy.

And the thing about Asia that's really concerning, right, is you have China, South Korea, Japan in diplomatic talks about counteracting the U.S. trade wars for the first time in five years. So, I'm pretty concerned that not only what's happening is we're sort of pushing China further and further away, we're also pushing our allies into the arms of China.

PHILLIP: It's a high-stakes game, Abel, and Donald Trump might be the only one who benefits because he doesn't have to be on the ballot again in two years.

MALDONADO: Abby, about a couple of weeks ago, we lost a great American named George Foreman. And he was the boxing champion twice. There's no doubt that we are in a fight of our life right now with China. There's no doubt. And we threw the first punch. And the question is, did we weaken China? And the answer is, no, we did not.

Will they feel the pain in the next couple of weeks? Well, I've got to say that if they don't feel the pain in a couple of weeks, then people are going to start questioning our belt as our economy of we really didn't knock them out.

And the whole world's watching now. The whole -- all the people that he came out with the tariffs at the beginning with are now sitting back, says, we don't have them at this time. 10 percent, we don't have them, but we're watching. So, this is a high-stake game.

PHILLIP: Do you think it's a few weeks he's got?

MALDONADO: I think a couple of the weeks.

PHILLIP: To show some progress?

MALDONADO: Look, Natasha said, what's in it for us? What's coming out of this? 15, 20 years ago, Natasha, you would go into a farm or to a kitchen, everything said, made in the USA. Go into a kitchen today, everything says made in China. That's what we're trying to change here.

PHILLIP: That includes -- there was a report, Donald Trump's products that are sold at his, you know, Donald Trump tower. They're all made in China. Why? Because they're cheap.

ALLISON: I just want to continue your boxing analogy. Big George wasn't the champ at the end of the day.

MALDONADO: Well, Muhammad Ali was the champ.

ALLISON: Muhammad Ali. So, I don't want to be Big George throwing the first punch right now because I want to be the champ.

So, the other thing that I'm just like, okay, this was this week, well, last week, it was Signal gate, and then the week before it.

[22:25:02]

It's like there's a lot of stuff happening right now. We're talking about two weeks in.

MALDONADO: It's not going to end, Ashley.

ALLISON: Yes, no, that's the problem. That's my point.

MALDONADO: President Trump is a businessman. He's not going to stop.

QUINN: Well, he's a businessman who knows going bankrupt numerous times and coming back out. I don't love that outlook. Where does he see the end of this, in some kind of bankruptcy for retirees? That's not a good outlook for a businessman.

PHILLIP: When people say that we were talking in the last segment about how now the financial people are asking, is he just crazy? I mean, the reason they're asking that is because they're like, there's no way that a White House full of economists can come up with this. It must come from Trump. So, is he? Like is this a sign of some instability?

ABDUL: That is hyperbole, and we can be honest.

PHILLIP: I mean, apparently, according to the reporting, they were not -- this was not hyperbole. This was not like crazy, like, you know, it's crazy, like crazy.

ABDUL: Yes, but they don't believe that he's crazy. I think that you know the point about the angels and the demons around him, if you go back to Donald Trump, because you know, I followed him in his first term, Donald Trump had a similar -- it was a similar makeup in the White House, where the people who were much more to the right of Donald Trump and then there were people who were much more moderate. Sometimes the moderates won. Sometimes, you know, the people who were much to the right of Donald Trump won.

But I think that Donald Trump, he really thought -- because it seemed to me, you know, when you come out and you say, and I remember, you know, when the market started going up, after he announced the pause, it was let him cook. That's what the White House put out. Let him cook.

Well, what is it that Donald Trump is cooking at this point? And I think that he -- I honestly believe that Donald Trump felt as if that if he does this, that China will respond. I think he absolutely thought that China would respond. And the fact that China has not responded, I think that Donald Trump is kind of maybe trying to figure out what to do here because it's those other countries.

Now, I don't, and I'm going to call cap on this notion that 75 countries are begging Donald Trump --

SARIN: They won't say a single one.

ABDUL: Yes, I'm going to call cap on that.

PHILLIP: I mean, there are some calling, for sure.

ABDUL: Some of them are sure, but the whole 75, the fact that you won't release a list of those 75. So, I don't believe that.

PHILLIP: And to your point about the first term, I mean, the question of is it just a lot of yes men, I mean, he had a cabinet meeting. Let me just play a little bit of what transpired in this cabinet meeting from his cabinet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL WALTZ, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Under your leadership, we are going to revitalize and make ship building and maritime great again.

LEE ZELDIN, EPA ADMINISTRATOR: At the Trump EPA, we're going to make you proud.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In honor and respect we have for each other is a reflection of you and your leadership.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks to your leadership.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are overwhelmingly elected by the biggest majority.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, Mr. President, thank you for your leadership at the border. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks to your fantastic leadership.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, the American worker is grateful. Main Street is grateful for you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALDONADO: What are they supposed to be saying to him?

ALLISON: Well, I'm not saying --

MALDONADO: Can you share with me what they're supposed to be saying?

ALLISON: Maybe something intellectual, like other than just like, thank you so much, Abby, for letting me be at this table.

Wait, can I just say this?

PHILLIP: First of all, I hate it when a meeting starts like that. Stop it. If a meeting started like that, don't do it. That's not a great way to start a meeting, but go ahead.

ALLISON: I am offended by the cultural appropriation of let him cook.

PHILLIP: Yes.

ALLISON: First of all. And for the CNN viewers, cap is lying, okay? That's what Melik is saying. Donald Trump is lying, okay, if you didn't know. You don't have to urban dictionary.

But to your point, the difference between 1.0 and 2.0 Donald Trump is that 1.0., he had people who would push back on him. He had people who would go against him publicly even. And those individuals are the people that he's investigating now. Those are the people that -- who's saying, I will not -- you have to take a lie detector test to make sure you can be in my State Department or my Defense Department. 1.0 and 2.0 are totally different.

PHILLIP: All right.

MALDONADO: Abby, you can say something to President Trump, but, I mean, I was a lieutenant governor to Arnold Schwarzenegger, and I would never call him cap or call him out in public. But in close session --

PHILLIP: I'm not saying anybody should call Trump out in the cabinet meeting. I'm just saying the idea that the praise, the effusive praise is a prerequisite for them sitting there. I think that is a staple of Trump world, okay?

Natasha Sarin, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, hang on.

Coming up next, more breaking news with massive consequences for protests in America. A judge rules that a pro-Palestinian Columbia student can be deported. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:34:15]

PHILLIP: Tonight, a judge just gave the Trump administration a big win in its efforts to target immigrant students. A Louisiana immigration judge says that the administration has a green light to remove Mahmoud Khalil from the country.

Khalil, you'll remember, is the Columbia University grad student and a legal person -- permanent resident who was arrested by immigration officials last month. He has not been charged with any crimes, but he has said things and helped lead protests that the Trump administration doesn't like.

The judge says according to U.S. law, specifically, the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952, that that is enough to revoke a green card. Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is civil and criminal attorney, Donte Mills. He's also a professor at the Beasley School of Law at Temple University.

[22:35:00]

So, Donte, just a couple of things and for -- for our audience -- we've been talking about this for some weeks now, maybe familiar with it.

The Immigration and Naturalization Act is a rarely used act that can be used to deport people on national security grounds. The Trump administration did not provide any evidence of sort of, you know, criminal activity, terrorist connections, anything like that. But here's what the memo that they submitted from Marco Rubio.

The -- the State Department said -- the memo says the Palestinian activist and Columbia grad is deportable because of his, quote, " -- beliefs, statements or associations that would compromise U.S. foreign policy interests.

The memo contains no allegations of criminal activity." I have to say I'm surprised -- beliefs and statements? Those two alone -- surprising to me that that would be enough to have someone's green card revoked.

DONTE MILLS, CIVIL AND CRIMINAL ATTORNEY: Well, I want to make this clear. It is enough -- when you look at the Immigration Naturalization Act from 1952 because that act gives, right now, the Secretary of State Marco Rubio the unilateral power to say, I do not want this person in the country.

And he's pointing to it making, this person making the country less safe. That's why he included in that letter that the Jewish students on the campus felt like they were threatened and in danger. So, he has that universe, that -- that unilateral power because of that act from 1952.

But it's also important to note here that this immigration judge works for the Department of Justice. It's not a separate judge in the judicial system. So, he's listening to his boss, and he's following along, and that's where that decision comes from.

But there's a separate case in the judicial system in New Jersey where they said he did not commit a crime, therefore, he could not or should not have been arrested. And a judge in New Jersey will determine if that's the case whether he's a citizen or not.

PHILLIP: That's very interesting because a few days ago, the -- the press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, made that exact point. She -- she pointed it to a question, about whether the courts need -- or the administration needs to listen to the courts. She said, who do these immigration judges work for? She said they work for Donald Trump.

MILLS: She did?

PHILLIP: So, it is very interesting that that is, Christine, now what we're-- what we're facing there, but this case is not over. There's actually a lot more litigation ahead. But for them, I think it's -- it's a key win along that process.

QUINN: I mean, there's no doubt it's a key win for them, and they may-- I'm not a lawyer -- have the legal power, but just having power doesn't mean you should use that power in every situation. And I think what she said is chilling because it sends a message that there is to be no balance of power, separation of power between the executive and the courts.

And that, if you want to keep your position as an immigration judge or other appointed judges, you have to step in line and tow the position. And that is not really what judges of any level are supposed to do.

And again, this is someone who had a green card. We're saying people who are here legally, if we don't like what they say or what we believe they think, they can be deported. It kind of goes against our entire foundation in this country.

PHILLIP: They're also screening immigrants or people coming into the country and their social media for what they are calling anti- Semitism, but some critics have said just mere criticism of the state of Israel counts in the eyes of the Trump administration.

MALDONADO: I can't believe they would say that. I think they should have left it alone so we can really know who's anti-Semitic here in our country.

So, they've -- they've actually warned everybody now that -- go clean your Facebook posts, go clean your TikTok posts, go clean your posts so you don't get in trouble. But back to this notion on this gentleman's got a green card, my father had a green card.

My father would never go out there and sympathize a cartel from Mexico or a terrorist organization. So, you're here to work. You're here to be part of the fabric, and then you're out there supporting a terrorist organization?

PHILLIP: I'm curious.

QUINN: There's no evidence -- clear evidence that this individual was supporting a terrorist organization.

MALDONADO: So, what was the deal with him then?

QUINN: He was protesting around his positions. I don't agree with his positions, but he was protesting. He is -- there's no evidence he was up a Hamas supporter.

MILLS: Let me up this a little bit with his backstory. He was not anti-Semitic. And in fact, he was on this network a year ago saying he was not. What he did was he led the protest at that university for the deaths that were happening in Gaza because of Israel's response. You should have the right to say, I don't think people should be dying and not be deported from it.

And I want to clear, to your point, too, there is a check and balance. So, I'm holding out hope that the -- that the judicial system, this judge in New Jersey says they can't do this.

QUINN: You're right. You're right.

PHILLIP: Donte --

MILLS: I'm not surprised that the immigration judge who works for the Department of Justice went along with it.

QUINN: Right. Right.

PHILLIP: Just -- can you clarify the distinction between the -- an immigration judge and this -- this judge in New Jersey, why are immigration judges different from other judges?

[22:40:02]

MILLS: Because it is separate and apart. Just -- even if we look at that act from 1952, immigrants are people who are not citizens here. They are adjudicated different than citizens. So, it's a separate process.

PHILLIP: It's also an administrative --

QUINN: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- they're dealing with administrative --

MILLS: Yes, it's administrative rules of whether or not they're allowed in this country, and that's why this judge said Marco Rubio had final say over who can be here and who can't.

PHILLIP: You were saying -- Melik.

ABDUL: I just wanted to say, now on the matter of the judge, the immigration judge, the fact that he, you know, worked for the DOJ, I think that that's a secondary point because you acknowledge that it was something that the Trump administration is able to do, that it's not illegal for them to do this. I think the thing and I was looking at Jonathan Turley, you know, most

of us know who Jonathan Turley is. And what he said, he actually expressed some concern because he said that initially, the -- what the White House was saying is that this was something criminal. But he said that he had concerns because now, we're talking about speech.

UNKNOWN: Yeah.

ABDUL: And that is something that is --

PHILLIP: That's where we began.

ABDUL: I think of an allegation there.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: I mean, and remember, I just want to play this because I -- I you know, this administration or these -- the people in this administration have been talking about free speech and censorship all along. Just listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech to America. I will destroy the illegal censorship regime and bring back free speech in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALLISON: You know, I really do love this country, and I love -- even though I don't always agree with everything that people say. And I think the reason why this country is so special is because we have freedom of speech, freedom of the press.

But what I'm seeing this administration do is do trial balloons to test the limits. This is not just about this issue of whether or not this one student said something that the administration or whether they even really think he is a threat to this country. This is to test the bounds of our constitution, the bounds of our institutions, and that is what makes me uncomfortable, and that is what I am against.

And I would hope that this is again, these are moments when -- I think the Biden administration did some of this, too, with censorship with platforms. Free speech is free speech, and we have to be able to go above the R by your name or the D on your by your name and be able to say there is a constitution that we all should be governed by.

And know your father might not have said that but should he have had the right to say that because he lives in a country where we have free speech.

PHILLIP: I think the biggest question is who gets to determine what are the beliefs that are deemed a threat?

UNKNOWN: Yes. PHILLIP: Because very easily, you know, a government could say, oh,

you want -- you want to strike as a union worker? You want to go in the streets and protest and maybe block the entry to a factory? You're a threat.

MILLS: You want to campaign?

PHILLIP: You want to campaign?

MILLS: You want to campaign against my platform?

PHILLIP: It's -- it's all on the table now, don't you think?

MALDONADO: Abby, under the law, Marco Rubio has that determination at this point.

PHILLIP: I know. I'm just saying, are you comfortable with how far that can go?

MALDONADO: I mean, under the law, yeah. I'm comfortable with our Secretary of State saying this person, I mean, we don't have all --

(CROSSTALK)

MILLS: Well, this is the problem that --

MALDONADO: I don't know exactly what he said, Abby, but according to --

QUINN: There's no charges of him having committed a crime.

MILLS: There's no criminal allegations. There's no criminal allegations at all. And this is --

PHILLIP: The woman -- the young woman -- before you jump in, and I'll give you the last word, as well. The young woman in Boston wrote an op-ed. She didn't protest. She wrote an op-ed defending the --the students who were protesting against actions that the university was taking. She's also had her visa revoked.

MILLS: Yeah.

PHILLIP: So, there's the range of this and it's now, at this point, dozens and dozens of students. We don't even know the full scope of it, but the range of it is -- is very serious and -- and suggests that that's going very far.

MILLS: With this administration, specifically with President Donald Trump. These rules and laws are in place. There's -- there was no expectation that people would take advantage of them the way that they are and use them against people. And that's what's happening. The law-- the law

(CROSSTALK)

ALLISON: I was on this network last night. MILLS: Nobody's tried to enforce it.

ALLISON: I was on the air last night when we reported that the ballerina was free from Russia. And I've been trying to put different characters in different storylines to see if you come to the same outcome.

And I really think that we are in a moment, we are so partisan right now that it is hard to really think clearly if it's not your party or you're not party. But try and substitute some other people in certain storylines and see if you can.

PHILLIP: Yeah, we got to go, but, yeah, $50 to a charity, right?

ALLISON: Twenty-five.

PHILLIP: Ukraine -- to a charity. And that and in Russia, that was enough to jail her.

ALLISON: Yeah.

PHILLIP: You have to wonder what a donation to a charity that benefits Palestinians would do here in this country.

QUINN: Right. Right.

PHILLIP: Donte Mills, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, hold on.

[22:45:00]

Coming up next, a picture's location is worth a thousand words. The White House moving a portrait of Barack Obama from the grand foyer and replacing it with a picture of Donald Trump. We'll discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: Tonight, extreme makeover White House edition. Donald Trump is decking the walls with something new -- a viral-looking portrait of the photo seen around the world, him, just seconds after would be assassin's bullet grazed his ear in Butler, Pennsylvania.

[22:50:07]

What it replaces, though, is telling. A portrait of the forty fourth president, Barack Obama. This is fascinating to -- to many people. A little -- maybe a little humorous, but what do you make of it, Christine?

QUINN: Oh, it's just petty, but it's classic Donald Trump. You know what I mean? I'm not surprised at all that he did it, and that picture really was, you know, just enormously impactful in the campaign. So, I'm not surprised, but it makes a big statement.

ALLISON: Wait. ABDUL: And just so people will know, what -- what Donald Trump did in, you know, he moved Barack Obama's picture across the Grand-- on the other side of the Grand Foyer. Now, where this picture is, this iconic picture, what happens is, is that, that pick, that space is reserved -- typically reserved for the President of The United States, not necessarily, you know, Donald Trump during this campaign.

I don't have a problem with Donald Trump doing this. I -- and I'll say to Susie Wiles, if you or your people were listening, I would love to get an invitation to the White House at some point because I want to see that actual -- I do support him. You just heard me criticize him. But I do support him, and I would like to see that photo one day.

PHILLIP: This is kind of, bit of a --

ALLISON: I don't need to get -- my invitation could get lost in the mail. But, where actually, in the East Wing, where that painting was removed from is literally where the President can come down -- one of the main stairwells the President can come down from the upper residence where he comes down to have social gatherings and socials affair. It is literally one of the most prominent places, very first things you see when you come in.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: It's one of the very first things you see when you walk into the White House.

ALLISON: And the reality is that that painting Barack Obama was literally just placed there during the Biden administration. So, it hasn't been hanging there that long. But you all know this is petty. This, I mean, this is just Donald Trump.

UNKNOWN: Yeah.

ALLISON: And also, the paintings that are not those types of paintings. They are portraits that presidents and first ladies sit for. And they look all very similar. They're not campaign photos.

PHILLIP: This is what I was going to really going to say. I mean, it's kind of a technical thing, but that's an official portrait. And the -- the sort of photograph -- that's a photograph, an "A.P." photograph that somebody, I guess, maybe it's A.I. Maybe somebody actually did paint it.

UNKNOWN: Yeah, I think somebody did paint it.

PHILLIP: It's not -- I -- I mean, this is an official White House photograph that is coming from an artist. It's done. It's been unveiled. This is something else.

ABDUL: I like that one better.

PHILLIP: It's something else.

ABDUL: Just showed the Barack Obama one. I didn't know that that was the photo. I like that. I like Trump's better.

MALDONADO: Abby, I mean, it's where he lives. It's where he lives. It's his house for the next three and a half years.

ALLISON: It's the people's house.

MALDONADO: You're right. It's the people's house, but today for the next three and a half years, he will be living in that house. And maybe he wants when people walk into this White House to see what happened in Butler, Pennsylvania.

PHILLIP: I get it.

MALDONALDO: It's an -- I mean, it's an iconic picture.

PHILLIP: One last quick thing. Donald Trump had his physical, and let me just play what he -- okay. We've been through this before with Donald Trump's physicals, but here's what he said about it today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Did he give you any suggestions or advice on anything you need to change up?

TRUMP: (inaudible) I was in very good shape. A good heart. A good soul. Very good soul. (inaudible) And I don't know what to tell you but I got a (inaudible). This is what the American people want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALLISON: Okay. I can't understand what he says, but I bet Jack can pretend what he said. I bet you I know what he said. I'm healthy as a whip. I'm smart as a--

PHILLIP: I don't even know that you can guess --

(CROSSTALK)

ALLISON: -- I'm smarter. I can run. I can run faster than a speeding bullet. Biden wouldn't do it. Biden wouldn't do it. And I did it.

ABDUL: A healthy heart and soul?

PHILLIP: That's what I was just going to say.

QUINN: Oh my gosh.

ABDUL: I think he said soul.

PHILLIP: Not just a healthy heart, but a healthy soul.

ABDUL: And a cognitive test --

(CROSSTALK)

QUINN: Test for that. PHILLIP: Thank you very much for joining us. More on this month's Wall

Street roller coaster ride followed a tariff back and forth. A real life trader who was featured on "The Big Short" joins us to talk about what to expect with the market. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:59:08]

PHILLIP: The comedians of "Have I Got News For You" are getting to the bottom of what really motivated President Trump to enact those tariffs. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROY WOOD JR., COMEDIAN: Hours before the tariffs kicked in, President Trump spoke at a fundraising dinner and bragged about ongoing trade war negotiations. What was his claim?

UNKNOWN: That he was not going to back off of them.

AMBER RUFFIN, COMEDIAN: He did say that. He tripled down and was like, I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I'm really, really doing it. Cut to today.

WOOD JR.: President Trump claimed everybody in the world was begging to make a deal with MAGA America.

TRUMP: I'm telling you, these countries are calling us up, kissing my ass (ph). They are -- they are dying to make a deal. Please, please, Sir, make a deal. I'll do anything. I'll do anything, Sir.

RUFFIN: Did you see how happy he looked when he was like, everybody's calling me. No one calls him on the phone.

[23:00:00]

That was the end goal. This man wants human contact.

(APPLAUSE)

RUFFIN: Someone call him on the phone. Call him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: You can catch the all-new episode Saturday at 9 P.M. on CNN. Thank you so much for watching "NewsNight" tonight and all-week. We'll see you tomorrow morning 10 A.M. with our conversation show "Table for Five". You can also catch me anytime on your favorite social media platforms -- X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.