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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

A.G. Bondi Says, Mistakenly Deported Maryland Man Not Coming Back; Judge Finds Probable Cause to Hold Trump Administration in Contempt; Stocks Fall After Fed Chair's Stark Warning About Tariffs. Document Shows Trump Plans Massive Cuts In Federal Health Agencies; Democrats Fight Over One High Profile Party Leaders Plan To Primary Their Own. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 16, 2025 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, crisis communications. Donald Trump tries to win in the court of public opinion by changing the way America sees the fight over Kilmar Abrego Garcia and by signaling to schools that resistance is expensive.

Plus, a warning on the economy --

JEROME POWELL, CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL RESERVE: Some part of those tariffs come to be paid by the public

PHILLIP: -- as Trump's tariff trench warfare sparks Americans to panic buy.

Also giving new meaning to do more with less, the Trump administration plans to delete $40 billion from the HHS budget.

Live at the table, Abel Maldonado, Mandela Barnes, Tiffany Cross and Shermichael Singleton.

Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

Let's get right to what America is talking about, Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Tonight, the man who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador is trapped both in a foreign prison and at the center of political games being played by both the president and Democrats.

There's been a lot said about Abrego Garcia, the government is adding to it tonight, but not in court, notably. They're doing it on social media and on camera. And it's a very obvious attempt to change American hearts and minds on this issue. Take this from the official ex account of the Department of Homeland Security, Kilmar Abrego Garcia has a history of violence and was not the upstanding, quote, Maryland man the media has portrayed him to be. That's what DHS says.

Now, Democrats also see Abrego's case as an opportunity, an example of how they saw the Trump administration behaving badly and simply ignoring the courts. Some Democrats are even going further, literally to El Salvador, to the jail where Abrego Garcia is being held to make that point in a made for T.V. moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): I said, I'm not asking him to smuggle Mr. Abrego Garcia in the United States. I'm simply asking him to open the door of CECOT and let this innocent man walk out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Now, the White House says that sound bites like that are evidence that Democrats have misplaced priorities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think it's atrocious that you have Democrats in Congress on Capitol Hill who swear an oath to protect their constituents and to serve them in Washington, D.C., spending more time defending illegal immigrant gang members than their own constituents and law-abiding American citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Tonight, we're getting another breaking development out of court, what looks like a stop sign, a judge telling the government to hit the brakes on bending the law to use -- its using to deport migrants. A federal judge is warning that he now has probable cause to begin contempt proceedings against this administration over 46 pages. This is when Judge Boasberg says that the White House and its lawyers have repeatedly not done a very simple thing, give hundreds of Venezuelan migrants a chance to challenge their deportations in court.

Now, joining us now in our fifth seat at the table is Trial Attorney Mercedes Colwin.

That is really what this is about. I mean, fundamentally they can take all of the evidence that they released. They released a police statement from a 2019 arrest of Abrego Garcia. And they could have just presented that in court, gone through the process and deported him, but it does seem like they're using this case to try to make a political argument and it might be working.

MERCEDES COLOWIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's exactly right, Abby. We've had immigration laws on the books for decades. And these are immigration laws that have been at in any proceeding when you're trying to deport individuals who are in this country, whether illegally, or they have -- they're being deported because they're not American citizens. They might have be a permanent resident and they've committed a felony. So, when you have laws that are on the books and you have an entire process that has been adhered to for decades and frankly really have been adhered to until this administration, it begs the question, what are we doing? Are we going to adhere to the laws that we have a very firm process, or are we going to try to look at other statutes like they have? The administration has used other statutes to say, this is an invasion of illegal immigrants.

[22:05:01]

So, we're going to use a statute that the last time that we actually utilize a statute was in World War II to deport individuals from this country without the due process, and that's being worked at through the process. We'll have to see if there will be. At some point, SCOTUS steps in and says, what you're trying to do is really define what has been on the books for decades.

PHILLIP: But they're pressure-testing the system here, particularly the legal system, not just in the case of that man from Maryland, in the case of the Alien Enemies Act, as Mercedes was talking about, in the case of Harvard University and the IRS laws and their tax-exempt status. All of this is pressure against the system to try to see if they could break it.

TIFFANY CROSS, AUTHOR, SAY IT LOUDER!: Which is very terrifying. And I have to say even outside the legal ease of this, it is just terrifying to us as human beings. I don't think this is an issue, a political issue. I don't think this is an issue where we can have, you know, well this side says this and this side says this one. We have to look at if he's not a citizen and he's not afforded due process, then none of us are citizens.

What is to stop this administration from me walking out of this studio tonight and me saying something that they don't like and them grabbing me and saying, well, you're not a citizen? Well, how do you know? Because I've not been afforded due process. What is stopping them from deporting me into this El Salvador prison where there are thousands of people locked up without due process? Our own State Department warned about Bukele, the president of El Salvador, negotiating with gangs, doing nefarious things there. And so the fact that we are sitting back allowing this to happen and discussing this as though it's a political issue, this is a humanitarian issue.

And when you look at the habits of dictators, when you look at the behavior of Orban, when you look at the behavior of Erdogan in Turkey, when you look at the behavior of Putin, they do all these various things. They go after the higher education system. Even Putin said wars are won by teachers. When you look at what Erdogan is doing, cozying up to other dictators, it is frightening. And we're seeing that happen before our very eyes.

And to me it feels like we're in the path of destruction and I'm watching this storm come through and knock everything out. And for all the people who say, oh, I don't care. That doesn't impact me. Guess what? You are in the path of destruction too. We have to stop this and look at this as a humanitarian issue. SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it is a political issue. I also think it's a national security issue. Prince George's County in 2019, their gang unit determined that Garcia was an MS-13 gang member. His wife in 2021, the wife that's now giving, you know, lengthy testimonies about how great he is, said that he's a serial abuser and she has a ton of photos to showcase said abuse.

I agree, due process is absolutely important, we want to maintain that, but I think there's absolutely enough here to send this guy somewhere else. One, he is already broken the law. We've already established that. Now, you do have evidence suggesting that he was a member or is a member of MS-13. He is also a serial abuser. This is not the type of individual I don't think any one of us would want in our country. He should be deported.

CROSS: Actually, Shermichael, we can't make it about Kilmar, like that's just one person.

SINGLETON: That's the case we're talking about.

CROSS: That is. But I guess if we look at the macro and not the micro and just look at the process of this, because he's not the only person there. There were other indiscriminately rounded up people and deported them.

We also saw in the news this week, maybe it was last week, it's been a long year this week, but the Massachusetts attorney who got the letter saying that you have seven days to leave the country. This administration has already proven that there are flaws in this system and they are randomly deporting people without due process. That's not specific to him. That should be specific to all of us.

SINGLETON: We certainly don't want the randomization -- just if I can just rebut real quickly. We certainly don't want the randomization just. Innocent people being taken out of the country, and that's going to happen, that should be corrected. I would certainly agree. But I think the vast majority of the American people, if you look at the polling numbers, this is one of the only areas where Donald Trump maintains a strong support across the board in terms of people wanting a very tough stance on immigration.

And I think, politically speaking, some of the Democrats, I assume they're going to fly over there, they're making an optical mistake, in my view.

PHILLIP: So, Mandela, I'll let you get in, but since he brought up the numbers, I just want to show people so we can all be on the same page. Asked whether they oppose deporting undocumented immigrants who are here for a long time and with no criminal records, 33 percent favor, 63 percent oppose it. On the question of whether the administration should send suspected gang members to El Salvador without a court hearing, this is a Wall Street Journal poll, 55 percent favor it, 43 percent oppose it.

The point being, I think it really depends on what the action is, what Americans support. And I just want to make one note about the gang affiliation. Obviously, this is a police report. We know the police reports are one part of the story. He has, in court, disputed that because the basis is the clothing he was wearing and information from a confidential informant, not actually direct information --

SINGLETON: But it is a relevant piece of evidence that we should cite for the viewers.

PHILLIP: Just more context on what you were saying there. Mandela?

FMR. LT. GOV. MANDELA BARNES (D-WI): As relevant as the fact that our president was found guilty of sexual assault, as relevant as the fact that Pete Hegseth said his own mother called into question his integrity, his ability to serve in the position that he's serving in.

[22:10:05]

SINGLETON: What does that have to do with immigration?

BARNES: Well, what I'm saying is these are the people who are leading the country, not just people who are living in the country.

SINGLETON: We had an election, Mandela.

BARNES: So, it's okay, so it's fine that our connection is led by a sexual assault --

SINGLETON: My point is the American people had an opportunity to decide who is going to lead.

BARNES: -- by a man found guilty of sexual assault.

SINGLETON: And they chose --

BARNES: Are you okay with that?

SINGLETON: former president and not the former vice president.

BARNES: You're fine with a person who's found guilty of sexual assault leading this country? I am certainly not. I fought against that with every fiber of my being.

Now, if he got elected and we came up short, but are you comfortable voting for that? Are you comfortable with having that lead the country? Are you comfortable with that leading the country. That is the question.

PHILLIP: Let me understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that the idea, as Shermichael was bringing up that these -- that immigrants, this guy, he's being accused of something? By the way, he's never been convicted any of those things, right?

SINGLETON: Of course.

PHILLIP: He's being accused of that. That's enough for you to say, get him out, throw him into a prison in El Salvador.

(CROSSTALKS)

PHILLIP: Mandela, what's your point about Trump and Pete Hegseth?

BARNES: My point is we're talking about due process, and we've gone through due process with Donald Trump and he was found guilty. And if we can sit and let this man who has all sorts of issues, dictate who gets to stay in this country, it's already was reported today that they will come after people who are homegrowns, people who were born here, people who have citizenship. They've already floated the idea of revoking people's citizenship. So, for the people you talked to that you mentioned that, you know, this may not apply to me, I guarantee you there will be something that applies to you.

And if people are being sent to El Salvador, to these prisons, as we was talked about in World War II without due process, what is that? That is essentially sending people to internment camps. And, again, what we did in World War II --

PHILLIP: I got to let him in.

LT. GOV. ABEL MALDONADO (R-CA): There's no secret that the immigration system in America is broken. No secret, both political parties have done nothing about it over the years. But this man here, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, he came here, he filed for political asylum. They didn't give it to him. There was an order for deportation. There was a stay at the end of the day. The administration made a mistake. They said, we made a mistake we deported him. Now, he has an El Salvador problem. He doesn't have a Trump USA problem. So, if this administration wants to do something to facilitate, I think they might --

(CROSSTALKS)

PHILLIP: I mean, the courts kind of disagree with that, because, honestly, they could just -- as people --

SINGLETON: But they didn't say, bring him back.

PHILLIP: But as many people have suggested, they could just follow the court order, have him come back, and as they said, just go through the court proceedings and deport him where they can deport him.

COLWIN: Just on practical level, Abby, these deportation proceedings are abbreviated. We're not talking about we have to get a jury and panel, then we have to go through motions and discovery and all. We're talking about a very abbreviated administrative proceeding. So, if you adhere to the immigration laws, you give an ALJ at the immigration board to give that type of process, you're done. It's exactly what you said. We're talking about an abbreviated proceeding. It is not --

PHILLIP: And they could have done that from the beginning.

COLWIN: It's so problematic to me.

PHILLIP: But it made me wonder, I mean, truly from a political perspective, Tiffany, it makes me wonder because when you look at what the White House did today, they were like, oh, here are the documents that, you know, everyone's been saying, well, what's the proof? Just give us the evidence and, well, let's debate it. They put this out. They brought the mother of someone who was tragically killed by an undocumented immigrant to the White House, part of --

MALDONADO: From El Salvador.

PHILLIP: Yes, this is -- but this is part of --

(CROSSTALKS)

CROSS: That has nothing to do with him. He wasn't the person.

MALDONADO: But the point is that Van Hollen won't talk to the woman here who lost her daughter in Maryland, but he will go down to El Salvador to try to bring an endless, we have a process back to America. Really?

CROSS: It is disturbing that you are sitting here --

MALDONADO: I think the Democrat Party is completely lost, completely lost and losing it.

CROSS: It is disturbing that you are sitting here defending the lack of due process to have the government disappear people and take them to El Salvador.

MALDONADO: They admitted it was a mistake.

CROSS: That's my point. They admitted it was a mistake.

MALDONADO: This is an MS-13 gangbanger in El Salvador.

CROSS: The federal court and the Supreme Court has ordered this administration to bring him back. How do you think --

SINGLETON: Well, they didn't order --

CROSS: Well, they have said --

COLWIN: Ordered the facilitation of his return.

(CROSSTALKS)

CROSS: But my point is for you and you who are defending this, how do you think history will remember you when we look back at this time --

SINGLETON: Well, I didn't say that. I believe in due process. I did say that. I think that's important.

CROSS: But you're okay with him going away. How do you think when we look back at this time the government was -- there wasn't a legal process is my point. And how do you think when we look back at this time when the government is disappearing people and you two sat on this stage and said, oh, well, that's okay?

(CROSSTALKS)

PHILLIP: Tiffany and Shemichael, hang on a second. Let me let Abel get a word in and then we got to go.

MALDONADO: Just briefly, this is no choir boy, okay? This is a gentleman who obviously has had issues. We're finding out more and more, and the Democrat party and Van Hollen, I think they're on the wrong side of this. There was a mistake made. He's in El Salvador. He should get a lawyer in El Salvador to get out of the prison, but he's not coming to the USA.

[22:15:02]

He's not come to USA.

(CROSSTALKS)

CROSS: In El Salvador, they have suspended the Constitution. Bukele has, along, with the help of lawmakers, suspended the Constitution there to deprive people in El Salvador of due process as well. This is right out dictator's handbook --

SINGLETON: (INAUDIBLE) on this particular guy, politically. This is not the guy that --

(CROSSTALKS)

PHILLIP: Mercedes Colwin -- we got to leave it there for that conversation.

Mercedes Colwin, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, stay with us.

Up next, a dire warning from the Fed chair over just how tariffs could hurt the economy. And a special guest is going to join us at the table with more on that.

Plus, it's surgery with a chainsaw, not a scalpel. New documents show just how much RFK Jr.'s Health and Human Services Department could end up cutting from its budget.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:20:00]

PHILLIP: Tonight, commander-in-chief versus head of the Fed. In his first 100 days, Donald Trump issuing tariffs left and right on the United States' trade partners, claiming that they'll reinvigorate the U.S. economy and make America rich again. But Fed Chair Jerome Powell is not sharing in those sentiments. He warned today of severe economic headwinds around Trump's tariff tirade.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POWELL: These policies are still evolving and their effects on the economy remain highly uncertain. The level of tariff increases announced so far is significantly larger than anticipated, and the same is likely to be true of the economic effects, which will include higher inflation and slower growth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is CNN Business Editor-at-Large and host of Quest Means Business Richard Quest, and he does, in fact, mean business.

Richard, so this strikes me, as many people have said, a major unforced error. I mean, politically, the economy is Donald Trump's greatest strength. And as we've seen over the last week, including today when Jerome Powell uttered those words, markets were like, we're out of here. Trump is every single day throwing away all of this goodwill of the American people.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Oh, absolutely, completely, and it's completely unnecessary. I mean, what you got today from Jerome Powell was this, as we would say in Britain, the statement of the bleed and obvious. We've had this again and again. He alluded to it a couple of weeks ago. Now he's actually put words. It's going to be challenging to get both parts of the mandate in line, you know, for employment and low inflation because the tariffs are going to slow down growth. Unemployment's going to go up. Inflation's going to go up. And the Fed chair says it's going to be challenging and it's going to be very difficult.

We are looking -- I'll give you the word you're wanting tonight, stagflation. That is what you are looking at the moment.

PHILLIP: And he's a pretty mild-mannered guy. But, you know, the markets interpret that pretty clearly. They're like, okay, this is going to be a rough few months, could be much longer than that. Because once you're in stagflation, to Richard's point, it's hard to get out of it.

BARNES: Well, yes, of course it's hard to get out of it, but also the confidence of not just consumers but our global partners. How do we ever get back to a place where we're trusted again as a nation? I don't think that's ever going to -- we're a long way off from that. Even with a different administration, it's hard to be able to exhibit that full faith and the credit of the United States of America.

So, when it comes to stagflation, I think that we know what is going to happen. People are already stockpiling as a result of the news, but also people are not going to be buying houses. People are not going to be buying cars. People are not going to be doing everything that had this economy humming since 2009, 2013, effectively.

And to see Donald Trump be even credited with having the economy as being his biggest strength, I think we see how much of a farce that has always been. Donald Trump has never been good with money. If he put his money that he inherited in ETFs, he'd be more wealthy than he is right now. If he put an index mutual funds besides instead of the failed businesses that he's running, and he is running this country into the ground the same way that he has done business venture after business venture.

SINGLETON: So, I think, one, we need to see how quickly the administration announces new trade deals with various allies, you know, European Union, et cetera. I want to see something around 15 to 20 percent. I think that would shore up some of the trade deficits that we all could acknowledge have existed for quite some time.

From my perspective --

PHILLIP: 15 to 20 percent what?

SINGLETON: In terms of trade relationships with E.U. Britain, Canada, tariffs, yes.

PHILLIP: 15 to 20 percent?

SINGLETON: I think, Richard, can I --

PHILLIP: I mean, it is a very important question because 15 to 20 percent is still very high.

SINGLETON: No, it is very high. But I think from Trump's argument, I don't think you're going to get anything better than that.

PHILLIP: What? I mean, we had something better than that before Trump.

SINGLETON: From his current posturing, I don't think the president is going to really meander much.

PHILLIP: That's his -- but that's -- you acknowledge that is his choice, not --

SINGLETON: Well, I'm not saying that it's not his choice, but I'm making an assessment based on where the current president's outlook is on trade relations and tariffs with our allies and adversaries.

With that said, I think the main priority and focus needs to be China. And I think we can all acknowledge that, whether it's I.P. theft, I think you have the level set there, I think you have to get Xi Jinping to the table to allow U.S. companies to be able to sue Chinese manufacturers from stealing U.S. ideas.

And so -- well, they have to because we're the largest --

CROSS: They don't have to.

SINGLETON: Well, let me tell you why.

CROSS: We are their largest trading partner.

SINGLETON: We're the largest consumer economy in the globe, $16 trillion consumer economy. China can't sell those goods even if they show up relations with every single Southeastern Asian partner.

[22:25:00] You need a market to buy those goods. That market only exists within the United States.

PHILLIP: How long are we into liberation day? What is it, two -- it's like been about two weeks.

BARNES: It's economic policy here.

PHILLIP: So far, Trump has met with the Japanese delegation. He sent out a Truth Social about it. He says, big progress. That's one. That is one country that we are making progress on. They have a long way to go to even begin.

MALDONADO: Abby --

SINGLETON: It's like 75 countries.

PHILLIP: No. I'm saying they have not named but one.

CROSS: Right.

SINGLETON: But they did say 75 countries that come to the table. That's what they.

CROSS: But, Shermichael, he's not going to negotiate with 75 countries over 90 days. And that assumes that every country has the same purchasing power, which they do not.

SINGLETON: Well, it's willing to come to a table that has pushed everybody away.

QUEST: I just refer you to this morning's China Daily, which might not have been in your morning read. The China Daily had an editorial from the Communist Party, and it says, the U.S. is not getting ripped off. The problem is, you ready for this, the U.S. has been living beyond its means for decades. It consumes more than it produces and borrowed money in order to have a higher standard of living than it's entitled to, bearing in mind its productivity.

MALDONADO: I actually kind of agree with that, Shermichael.

(CROSSTALKS)

MALDONADO: I'll tell why both political parties have been spending to no end, because none of them can balance a budget because there's three ways to balance a budget. You can raise revenue, you can cut programs, or you can borrow. What have the politicians in America have been doing? Borrowing, borrowing, borrowing.

And now we're to this point where I believe President Trump's trying to find the sweet spot on tariffs. Look, when liberation day came, I thought China would be down by now. I really did. I thought China would be saying, okay, we're negotiating.

PHILLIP: He has not.

MALDONADO: That's not happening. And also as an objective --

PHILLIP: He has not been reading China Daily.

CROSS: Right.

MALDONADO: As an objective observer, not reading the China Daily, I can tell you that I thought we'd be done with China by now.

BARNES: You don't raise revenue when you give the wealthiest people in this country a tax break, the 2017 Trump tax bill,

SINGLETON: If I can, China has seen significant growth throughout Q4, okay? Their debt feud economic strategy is starting to hit home and it's wrecking a lot their economy. So, for them to write that is absurd.

(CROSSTALKS)

QUEST: No. China's tech, economic issues with real estate and bad debts, et cetera, is very well known. But they're talking not about just the government. They're talking about the amount of credit card debt. They're talking about people living from paycheck to paycheck. They're talking about the sheer amount of --

SINGLETON: And what about the people in their country, making $6 a day?

QUEST: Don't worry about them. Worry about what's happening here.

SINGLETON: So, why are we even raising that point?

(CROSSTALKS)

QUEST: China has a stomach for this fight that the American consumer will not have in six months' time when the proverbial hits the --

SINGLETON: That may the case in terms of the consumer, but, economically, our strength would certainly allow us to withstand this far greater and longer than China.

PHILLIP: All right. We'll see about that. Richard Quest, thank you very much. Everyone else, hang on.

Coming up. New documents show that the Department of Health and Human Services and its leader, RFK Jr., could cut about one third of their budget and multiple lifesaving programs in the process. Another guest is going to join us at our table to discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:30:00]

PHILLIP: Tonight, the Trump plan to take a surgical saw to health and human services. A document reviewed by CNN shows the President plans a massive nip and tuck to federal health agencies, eliminating programs, shrinking staffs of scientists and draining tens of billions of dollars from their budgets.

The operation to shrink HHS coincides with RFK Jr. making clear that he has a preexisting condition, a case of conspiracy bias. The HHS secretary has a conclusion about autism, that it's caused by vaccines and other environmental factors, and now he is in search of the science to back that up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEC. ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: This is a preventable disease. We know it's an environmental exposure. These are kids who many of them were fully functional and regressed because of some environmental exposure into autism when they're two years old. And these are kids who will never pay taxes. They'll never hold a job. They'll never play baseball. They'll never write a poem. They'll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: The CDC, one of the agencies that would shrink under these proposed cuts, already knows why autism cases are rising. It's because improvements in early identification and better diagnostic practices.

Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Dr. Chris Pernell. She is the director of the NAACP's Center for Health Equity. She is a public health and preventative medicine physician. Dr. Pernell, I was floored to hear him say something like that --

CHRIS T. PERNELL, DIRECTOR, NAACP CENTER FOR HEALTH EQUITY: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- about so many Americans, who are on the autism spectrum. There are some who have greater needs than others. But the idea that people with autism have no ability to function in the world, and also his statement without any backing that it's all the environment.

[22:35:00]

Where does he even get this from?

PERNELL: Who knows where he gets it from? It doesn't make sense according to the science. It doesn't make sense according to humanity. And it's time, I think, for all over the nation to stand up and say, so, look. Dr. Georges Benjamin came out. He's an executive director of the American Public Health Association, and he said that Secretary Kennedy should be fired or resign. I wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

Day after day, we hear another travesty that's happening to public health. We hear about funding cuts of critical programs. We have a whole population that's been dehumanized and disgraced, if you will. And quite frankly, public health is sick of it. And increasingly, in our circles, we're talking about pushing back, asserting.

Already during the pandemic, we saw, an assassination, if you will, of the integrity of public health science. You saw an anti-science, culture fomenting in the U.S. government, and it's like we've fallen off of a cliff, and where will it end?

PHILLIP: It is amazing to me, Shermichael and Abel, that the Trump administration and all of their merit-based, whatever, could not find someone with actual qualifications, or at the very least, deference to the people who have qualifications to be in this role.

I mean, to Dr. Pernell's point, this is Christopher Banks, the CEO of Autism Society of America, claiming autism is quote, " -- preventable, is not science based. Autism is not a chronic disease nor a childhood disease. It is a lifelong developmental condition. It is not an epidemic nor should it be compared to the COVID-19 pandemic, and using language like that perpetuates falsehood, stigma and stereotypes."

All he -- all he has to do is just say, I'm going to let the people who know about this talk about this, but he did that instead.

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I'm not a doctor. I would probably do this a little differently. I think science matters. It's important. I think we should probably use this opportunity, especially with the growth in A.I. to figure out how we can better address some of the needs of children with -- with autism.

I mean, doc, you would know better than me where this begins. Let's put the focus there and figure out how we prevent this going forward. The technology, I think, is increasing to -- to do that.

So, that's probably what I would advise the HHS secretary to do. A lot of families have to deal with this. A lot of parents worry when they pass on, who's going to take care of their children. This is a very sensitive issue. And so, I would just have a very different outlook and address this.

PHILLIP: What's going to happen now? I mean, he says he's going to find the cause of autism in this year -- this calendar year.

ABEL MALDONADO (R) FORMER CALIFORNIA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: Well, first, Abby, he's been on the job for 90 days, a little less than 90 days. So, I think that we should just give him the benefit of the doubt. Don't you?

UNKNOWN: You're not --

(CROSSTALK)

UNKNOWN: No, no.

UNKNOWN: Can I ask you --

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Hold on. One at a time. One at a time. Hold on, hold on. Let me --hold on. Hold on, hold on. Guys, one second. okay? So, let me just let him express what he's going to express to you over about it.

MALDONADO: The Health and Human Services, you're going to be here saying the same thing. It just seems like everything President Trump does, you're going to oppose no matter what.

TIFFANY CROSS, AUTHOR, "SAY IT LOUDER": And it seems like everything he does, you're going to support blindly and foolishly. And it leaves the rest of us down the place. This is the challenge.

MALDONADO: No, not at all. I'm saying --

(CROSSTALK)

MALDONADO: -- what he's saying is let's give this man a benefit of the doubt. Look.

CROSS: This is the challenge. He built this cabinet off of loyalty, not off of expertise. He is politically inept, and his first job in government was as President of The United States. And you see how dangerous that is to have a reality TV star elevated to this post and play with our health in the process.

Let me just explain to you what's happening right now. The HHS cuts. Right now, they have already cut programs from the CDC that were studying infectious diseases and studying STIs. They are going through looking for any little thing that has anything to do with diversity, equity, inclusion. They are the didn't earn it hires.

We have a qualified doctor here, a qualified medical profession who's worked in the medical profession telling you this is a problem. And yet still, you are spinning in our face --

MALDONADO: No, not at all. I just --

CROSS: -- trying to convince us it is rain. You have to at least --

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Go ahead, Mandela.

CROSS: -- but the can you please be sensible and say this is a problem for the American people.

MANDELA BARNES (D) FORMER WISCONSIN LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: Look, the way I look --

(CROSSTALK)

CROSS: It's not a political issue, Abel.

PHILLIP: Guys, one at a time. One at a time.

(CROSSTALK)

PERNELL: Abel --

CROSS: This is a matter of our health.

PHILLIP: Okay, one at a time, please. One at a time.

PERNELL: You can't just say to someone give a benefit of the doubt when we already have --

MALDONADO: Give him an opportunity then.

PERNELL: We already have proof in Texas that two children are dead from a measles outbreak --

CROSS: Yes.

PERNELL: -- that should not have happened because you have a secretary who has consistently and systematically undermined the science around vaccines. How can we give him a benefit of the doubt when he spent decades being a charlatan when it has come to science and public health issues?

Here is a person during his nomination process who has espoused medical racism. He said that black and African American people had different immune systems. Excuse me, Sir. There's no room for a benefit of the doubt.

CROSS: Thank you.

PERNELL: As she was just saying, we have gutted programs at both the CDC and the FDA around smoking. Do you know the leading preventable cause of death in the United States? Tobacco. And you've got the very opposite on --on --

MALDONADO: So, my question is, he's not going to go anywhere.

PHILLIP: On the benefit --

MALDONADO: You're not going anywhere. He's there.

PHILLIP: Abel, on the benefit of the doubt, let me just -- I want to play a little bit more about what he's been saying recently. These are some of the claims that he's been making.

[22:40:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY JR.: This whole generation of kids is damaged by chronic disease. When my uncle was president, three percent of Americans were obese. Today, it's around 70 percent. Today, we're the fourth most obese country in the world. There, people get measles because they don't vaccinate, they get measles because the vaccine wanes, the vaccines wane about 4.8 percent per year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: So, almost everything, I -- I'm -- I'll give him the chronic disease. I mean, I don't even know. Maybe -- maybe that is true or not. But almost everything else that he said was false in that statement. He is speaking on behalf of the health agencies of this country.

MALDONADO: He's wrong on obesity? PHILLIP: He --

CROSS: Yes.

PHILLIP: He is wrong on obesity.

MALDONADO: He's wrong on vaccines -- he's wrong --

CROSS: Yes. Yes.

PHILLIP: It's not 70 percent.

(CROSSTALK)

MALDONADO: Well, guess -- let me share some -- let me share with you.

PHILLIP: I mean, here's the thing. Here's the thing.

(CROSSTALK)

MALDONADO: Secretary Kennedy is going to be the Secretary of Health and Human Services for the next couple of years.

PHILLIP: Hold on a second.

MALDONALDO: How do we work with him to make sure that we're moving in the right direction?

BARNES: We don't enable him. We don't enable him.

PHILLIP: What about just having standards for knowing your facts before you speak?

UNKNOWN: Yes. Yes.

MALDONADO: Abby, I --

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Let me -- hold on, hold on. What's -- what about that?

MALDONADO: I agree with that, Abby. I mean, look. I -- I started following Secretary Kennedy about two, three years ago. I didn't even know who he -- I mean, I had heard of him, but I started following him on his "Make America Healthy Again" on food, on, the way the federal government says you can eat this on the food guide and everything. And I started watching and listening.

PHILLIP: Yes.

MALDONADO: And he makes a lot of valid points.

PHILLIP: Well, I just -- I just pointed out --

(CROSSTALK)

MALDONADO: So, on my mind --

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Hold on, guys.

(CROSSTALK)

MALDONADO: All the money -- the money on all this --

PHILLIP: Guys, we cannot, we cannot all speak at the same time. Really, we cannot all speak at the same time. I'm sorry to say, but we have to do it one at a time.

MALDONADO: Okay.

PHILLIP: Let me just -- one quick point. And, Mandela, you have to get in. I -- I just pointed out that you were nodding your head to a lot of what he said. It's not true, most of it, right? Knowing that, I mean, shouldn't that give you pause when he tells you things that might sound true I'm but really aren't true because he's playing to your desire to believe certain information that, you know, confirms your priors?

MALDONADO: I'm relating it, Abby, to the health side of food and diet. I -- I was --

PHILLIP: Which is very important.

MALDONALDO: I was nodding. I was nodding, and I kind of disagree with him. And now I agree with him.

PHILLIP: Yeah, but --

MALDONADO: We are eating junk today.

PHILLIP: I -- I get it. We're-- we're eating junk, but -- but the connection that he makes between those things and health outcomes are not always accurate.

UNKNOWN: Got you.

BARNES: Well, I was going to say, how do we expect to find a cure -- these root cause of autism if we're cutting $40 billion from HHS anyway? How do we plan to stop and mitigate any of the health crises that we face if we're going to be cutting $40 billion from the agency? It is irresponsible, and all we're going to be left with is WebMD, and that's effectively what we have right now.

PHILLIP: At the same time that all of this is happening, top NIH nutrition researcher studying ultra-processed foods departs, citing censorship under Kennedy. This is somebody who is working on the very issue that you say is super --

UNKNOWN: We probably need this guy.

PHILLIP: Yeah. He's gone. He is gone. He says that, specifically, I experience censorship in the reporting of our research because of agency concerns that it did not appear to fully support pre-conceived narratives of my agency's leadership about ultra-processed food addiction.

PERNELL: That doesn't deserve a benefit of the doubt.

UNKNOWN: Correct.

PERNELL: That, right there.

SINGLETON: I think at the core of the idea of Make America Healthy Again, I think is a noble mission, dieting, better eating, better food, better food standards. I think those are good things, but I do believe you really have to listen to people who are sort of experts on these things.

I don't disagree with Kennedy's sort of prognosis that, hey, America's on its healthy -- cancer rates are increasing with younger people. But you need the experts sort of help inform what the best decisions are to address those issues.

BARNES: So, don't fire them.

PHILLIP: Yeah. I think that's exactly right.

CROSS: It makes sense on Instagram. We don't have even for the secretary of health and human services for TriNet Lab.

PHILLIP: All right. Dr. Chris Pernell, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, stay with us. A Democrat has a plan that a party elder is calling insane. We'll tell you what David Hogg wants to do. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:48:44]

PHILLIP: Insane or intuitive? Tonight, Democrats are fighting over one high profile party leaders plan to primary their own. David Hogg is a Parkland survivor and now a vice chair of the Democratic National Committee.

He's also the head of a pack that is putting $20,000,000 behind an effort to replace Democratic lawmakers that Hogue sees as, quote, "-- ineffective, asleep at the wheel members with Democrats who have the energy, passion and vision to meet this moment with the urgency our country deserves." Now, the idea does not seem like it's going to win Hogg any popularity contest among his Democratic peers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID HOGG, DNC VICE CHAIR: If you were an effective leader and you're listening to this right now and you're a member of congress, you have nothing to be worried about. And if this brings you anxiety, you should ask yourself why that is. Because there are young people out there ready to meet this moment,

and our party must do a better job to show our young people that we're here to win them back. And look, I know that what I'm doing here isn't going to make everybody happy, but I am not here to make everybody happy. I am here to win it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Mandela --

BARNES: Dream for the Republican Party.

PHILLIP: What is a Democratic Party vice chair doing with a PAC to take out Democrats?

BARNES: I will say nobody's entitled to any position.

UNKNOWN: Yeah.

BARNES: And you know what?

[22:50:00]

I'm just going to say nobody's -- nobody's entitled to any position that they're in, right? Like - and he's not going to make friends by, you know, launching in this endeavor or launching this endeavor. But the fact is, there are problems, there are challenges that we have as a party and things that do need to be addressed. The favorability of congressional Democrats is lower --

PHILLIP: Is this the way to do it?

BARNES: I'm not going to say if that's the way to do it or not.

PHILLIP: I mean, you got to say something -- hey --

(CROSSTALK)

BARNES: But I'll tell you. I got in the policy.

PHILLIP: I'm just saying, you're not in an elected position right now.

BARNES: I know, but --

PHILLIP: You can't dance around this one.

(CROSSTALK)

BARNES: But I got into, like, an office by primary and somebody.

UNKNOWN: Right. That's how I got in office.

PHILLIP: Nobody is saying --

UNKNOWN: Yeah, yeah. PHILLIP: -- don't primary somebody. I think the question is, Democrats have a lot of problems. Is the issue really taking out their own or adding to their numbers? Is it additional or is it subtraction?

CROSS: I think the Democrats would benefit from some new energy, quite frankly, and we see --

(CROSSTALK)

UNKNOWN: We love the fact that two Democrats going at each other, spending all their money.

CROSS: Let me just tell you something. I don't really care what Republicans love or Democrats love. My only point, I'm not a party loyalist.

MALDONADO: Right.

CROSS: I'm a people loyalist. And the people right now are frightened and upset. And it used to be, oh, one party's playing chess and we're playing checkers. Right now, one party is playing checkers, and the Democrats look like, they're going up against somebody playing Grand Theft Auto.

They are completely out of their element, and it is frustrating from Chuck Schumer's vote. And they are institutionalists who believe in the party of yesteryear, the goodness of the party of yesteryear, which is black folks I am not -- never believed in.

So, I do think there are members who die in their seats. They do need to tee up a younger generation of people. And I think a lot of the lack of support the Democrats are getting across the board right now is because a lot of people do not see them pushing back and fighting back against a rising authoritarian government.

And if David Hogg wants to go after and do that, I applaud him. Like you said, nobody is entitled to elected --

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: I guess my question is, how are you going to add to the numbers? Because at the end of the day, you have to add.

SINGLETON: You do.

PHILLIP: Politics is --

BARNES: The biggest number we need to add is the number of people who are voting for us. And if we can inspire confidence in the voting public --

UNKNOWN: Right.

BARNES: -- if people are showing up excited to vote for Democrats, not just to vote against Donald Trump, I think we have and we're in a much better place. (CROSSTALK)

MALDONADO: -- doing cartwheels. I can't believe the Democrat Party elected this young man to be as a vice chair because anybody who says, we're going to fight each other, we're going to eat our own.

BARNES: Well, Donald Trump just cursed everybody and took over it. Donald Trump is taking -- - the hostile take over the party. So --

SINGLETON: Mandela, I will say when -- when on our side, when we're experimenting with some of this in fighting, it didn't bode very well with us, for us when you look at some of the elections that we lost. So, I would caution --

PHILLIP: There was some bad --

SINGLETON: -- it was --

PHILLIP: -- there were a lot of bad midterms for Republicans. That is true.

SINGLETON: There were a lot of bad midterms. So I would caution, Democrats, but to your point, I mean, it certainly is good news for Republicans. But something that Tiffany said, I think she has a very legitimate point. If you're a younger person, and -- and I've said this even on our side, there are a lot of politicians who are just old.

I'm just being honest. They don't inspire a new generation of leaders. They don't inspire new ideas.

(CROSSTALK)

CROSS: Senator Grassley is 91 years old.

SINGLETON: And so, if the premise -- if the premise is hey --

(CROSSTALK)

SINGLETON: -- let's energize the next generation of leaders. I can see-- I can see the legitimacy of that argument. But in fighting with your party, dude, that's a horrible --

(CROSSTALK)

MALDONADO: Shermichael, go David Hogue. Let's go. Go David Hogue. Go.

PHILLIP: Coming up next, the panel is going to give us their night caps. They're going to tell us what completely unscientific wisdom they live by inspired by the scientist's experiment that we'll tell you about next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:57:42] PHILLIP: We are back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap five- second rule edition. A microbiologist did an experiment to investigate that rule and claims that you can eat something dropped on the floor if you pick it up within five seconds. I already knew that.

So, duh. Unfortunately, as the scientists' TikTok shows, bacteria was present on the food that even just got grazed on the floor. So, you each have 30 seconds to say what you think is completely fictional but -- and non-scientific but you believe in.

MALDONADO: If it's free or cheap, you take a little as possible. There's always something attached, Abby.

PHILLIP: I'm always going to stick my hand in the candy jar (inaudible) as possible. Sorry.

UNKNOWN: It's good to be.

PHILLIP: Mandela.

BARNES: Totally unscientific but as I and other scholars know, you never split the pole when you're walking with somebody. It can only bring a bad omen upon whatever event you are on the way to or whatever experience you plan to have. So, don't split poles with friends. Don't even test it with enemies.

SINGLETON: Mandela, I'll sit and walk around. Like, I hate them.

BARNES: Yeah. I will -- I will stop a person.I will stop the whole -- the whole trip. I'll turn this car around.

PHILLIP: Oh, gosh.

CROSS: I like it. I would -- my thing is dirty phones. Dirty phones don't belong on the bed or anywhere near me. And then just on a more serious note, fascists don't belong in the government, innocent people don't belong in El Salvador.

SINGLETON: Can we just not have phone with the nightcaps? Can we just not have phone with the nightcaps?

CROSS: It's a lot of serious things going on and I got to say. So, anyway --

SINGLETON: Phones are gross, though. They are gross.

CROSS: They are. Super gross.

PHILLIP: It's always somebody at the table --

CROSS: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- during nightcaps.

CROSS: Me.

PHILLIP: Shermichael.

SINGLETON: My gross thing, I just don't understand people who leave their houses to run errands wearing pajamas. And I've always wondered, do they go back home and get in bed? That is so gross to me. Like, sir, that's really, really gross. Like, just put on some jeans and just come back and put your pajamas on.

PHILLIP: Did you know that they sell, you know, luxury pajamas that people can wear in their life.

SINGLETON: To, like, go out?

PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean basically, that's what it is.

SINGLETON: No. So, I'm not going to get one of those.

CROSS: I run to the corner store in pajamas.

SINGLETON: But I think you don't go back and get in bed.

CROSS: No, I do not.

SINGLETON: See, there we go. There we go.

CROSS: But I get on my sofa. I don't know if that counts.

SINGLETON: Well, the sofa's okay.

BARNES: Sofa's different.

SINGLETON: But you don't lay in bed though, Tiffany.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Don't wear outside clothes in the bed, I think, is something that --

[23:00:00]

(CROSSTALK)

CROSS: -- clothes, that might be a little puzzle.

SINGLETON: Yeah.

PHILLIP: Outside shoes, as well. Everyone, thank you so much. Thank you for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram and TikTok. Meantime, "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.