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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
FBI Arrests Sitting Judge For Allegedly Obstructing ICE; Poll Shows Majority Describe Trump Second Term Chaotic, Scary; Trump Wildly Claims 200 Trade Deals, With No Evidence; "NewsNight" Discusses Trump Tariffs; "NewsNight" Talks About Hints Of AOC's Political Future. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 25, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, the long arm of the law reaches to handcuff a judge accused of obstructing justice. Is this a special case or a sign of what's to come?
Plus, liar, liar. Donald Trump takes TIME Magazine on a tour of an alternate reality.
Also, don't thank me. The president who chalks up change to him says he doesn't want any credit.
And AOC says Democrats should follow her lead, but is populism the proper ploy to be popular?
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Xochitl Hinojosa, Dan Koh and Kevin O'Leary.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in Washington.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, crime and punishment tonight. A judge who normally punishes criminals is accused of crimes. For some, the episode is now example number one in the Trump administration's pursuit of power, constitutional checks be damned, but for others, it is a simple law and order story that no one, not even those who wear black robes are above the law.
Now, the story starts in a Wisconsin courtroom last Friday. There, Hannah Dugan, according to a criminal complaint, confronted agents attempting to apprehend Eduardo Flores Ruiz. Flores Ruiz, a Mexican citizen, was in court, brought up on domestic violence charges, and agents informed Dugan of the warrant. Then the complaint says that Dugan walked Flores out of the courtroom through a jury door.
Flores Ruiz made a run for it, but couldn't evade DHS agents. And today, the FBI director announced on Twitter that Dugan had been arrested for what he labeled intentionally misdirecting federal agents. Then tonight, he posted the picture of Dugan being led away in handcuffs.
Now, word of this arrest has provoked thudding statements from legal associations and worries that this reads like retaliation. The attorney general on Fox frames it as following the letter of the law, though.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think some of these judges think they are beyond and above the law and they are not, and we're sending a very strong message today, if you are harboring a fugitive, we don't care who you are, if you are helping hide one, if you are giving a TDA member guns, anyone who is illegally in this country, we will come after you and we will prosecute you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at the table for this debate, we have Gene Rossi, a former federal prosecutor, and also with us, Jim Trusty, Donald Trump's former attorney.
Gene and Jim, so this is tricky. I mean, I'm going to let Jim kind of lay out the case here for why this prosecution is warranted. It does seem like an attempt to make an example of this particular judge.
JIM TRUSTY, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Well, this is a judge with absolutely no judgment. If you read the complaint, I mean, it's an embarrassment. It's not just that she used a private door that you would never use to literally usher a wanted defendant out of her courtroom with his lawyer, but she tried to get the ICE agents and the task force that was trying to serve the warrant into a different place of the courthouse. She sent them packing.
The problem is --
PHILLIP: To the chief justices --
TRUSTY: To the chief judge.
PHILLIP: -- to talk to them about the warrant and where this arrest continues.
TRUSTY: Which they had already done, and the chief judge was actually fine with where they were trying to serve the warrant. The key was she's trying to get them out of the hall. The big mistake was there were a couple of agents that were in plain clothes that stayed behind. They watched as a judge refused to call the case against this defendant, snuck him out the backdoor and helped him get to a back elevator to try to get away.
PHILLIP: Okay, so let me take on --
TRUSTY: This is not some big symbol of politics. This is a criminal debate (ph).
PHILLIP: I know. I just want to, I want to get some of the facts clear here because I'm reading the complaint and a couple things struck out at me, like on page 11, for example. It says that they walked to a public hallway after leaving the chief justice's vestibule and they saw the person, the immigrant who they're trying to arrest. So, they see him in a public hallway. You're suggesting that he was sort of absconded out a backdoor, but it sounds like it was happening in public.
And then on top of that, a DEA agent, DEA agent A, goes to an elevator bank where the person they're trying to arrest is goes on the elevator with him and he gets off the elevator and then leaves the building through a public door. So, I'm kind of confused as to how then you could suggest that she secreted them out of the building when a DEA agent was on an elevator with him, saw him walk out a public door, and then he ran, and then they apprehended him.
TRUSTY: She didn't know he was a DEA agent.
PHILLIP: No. I'm saying this is the -- I mean, she wasn't there for any of this. I'm just saying the person they were trying to arrest was on an elevator with law enforcement, and was not apprehended.
TRUSTY: The judge refused to call the case out loud. There's three victims and a prosecutor sitting in court. Everyone agreed when the case is done, they'll arrest him in a public place. So, of course, the agents are in a public place. That's what the court wants.
PHILLIP: Well, why didn't they arrest him? They were on an elevator with him.
TRUSTY: Because they're waiting for the case to be called, and all of a sudden, he is making I run for it.
PHILLIP: No, but the case is a completely unrelated case. Gene, I want you to jump in, but I guess the facts here, to me, there are some holes, especially in this idea that she tried to get him out when it seems like they went out a public door and were seen by the very people who then arrested him.
GENE ROSSI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I'm going to give a non-legal analysis. What you have here is a judge who's just incredibly angry. That DEA agents, ICE agents, Custom and Board Protection, deportation officers are hovering around like bees for a man they're trying to arrest. It's anger on steroids.
I want to get to something that Jim brought up. I was a prosecutor for many years. Jim was too. That prosecutor had this case on his docket. He had the victims there in the audience for the victims. And I'm a big victim advocate. This was a big deal. And the thing that really bothers me about the judge, and I think this is a big mess, is that she adjourned the case without telling the prosecutor and without telling the victims. And whether there's probable cause or beyond a reasonable doubt could convict her, that to me shows that she was willfully trying to hide that defendant from being arrested. And that bothers me a lot.
Now, would I as a prosecutor --
PHILLIP: Explain that to me for a second.
ROSSI: Yes.
PHILLIP: So you're saying that the fact that she adjourned the case, even though there was clearly an immigration arrest that was about to happen, you think that was a sign that she wanted to hide the defendant? Why?
ROSSI: It points towards -- of course, it is. It was in the affidavit and the judge reviewed it. But that points towards her trying to conceal and obstruct the arrest of this individual, I don't know, Mr. Ruiz.
Whether I, as a prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia, would've papered this case probably not, I did a ton of illegal immigration cases, a thousand. I tried and I supervised thousands. Would I have papered this case? No.
The thing that bothers me about the Justice Department in this case is they made it into a show. They waited a whole week to paper this case, a week. And here's what I want to say. You have the right to get an arrest warrant and you have the right to get a summons, and that they got arrest warrant for a judge, shows that they wanted to make this a spectacle.
Last point I want to make is I indicted, or I presented to a grand jury and indicted a state prosecutor. I indicted a prosecutor and I got a summons because I didn't want to make a spectacle. They made a spectacle of this case.
PHILLIP: And they announced it on X, and then deleted it, but announced it on X.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Why wouldn't you want to make a spectacle of it? I mean, the fact of the matter is there are liberal Democrat elected officials, not all judges, some are mayors and others, all over this country who have said repeatedly since Donald Trump became the president that they would like to obstruct his principles and his program when it comes to deporting illegal immigrants. Here, you have this person, if these facts are proven true, obviously, that's exactly what she was trying to do here, why wouldn't you want to make --
ROSSI: Let me respond to that.
JENNINGS: Well, let me -- yes, because --
ROSSI: You asked me a question. Let me respond.
JENNINGS: Well, let me tell you my view. The spectacle is important because a message has to be sent to everybody else, we are not going to put up -- you've been elected by people to uphold the law and some of the laws that have been most flagrantly violated in this country are immigration laws. You've got to get on board with upholding all the laws, not just --
ROSSI: Let me respond to that.
PHILLIP: I'll let you respond then --
ROSSI: I'm saying did you want go?
PHILLIP: Go ahead.
ROSSI: I don't want dominate here. No, you respond, but I want to respond to your point here. Why make it a spectacle? This is a state judge. She's been on the bench for about ten years.
[22:10:00]
She has a very good record. When you're in the Justice Department or a U.S. attorney's office and you're deciding whether to paper a case, you have to worry about what impact it's going to have on the community. And I'm telling you this right now, when Bondi at all and the U.S. attorney in Milwaukee approve this complaint, they didn't enhance the rule of law. They defiled it by this way. Let me -- no, hold on.
PHILLIP: Let him finish. Go ahead.
ROSSI: Yes. They defiled it because you're taking extreme measures. Getting an arrest warrant for a judge who says go in the backdoor and go to the elevator, they'll meet you outside, that's obstruction. You know what's going to happen if this goes to a jury and it's not. It ain't going to make it to a jury. If this goes to a jury, I've done a hundred trials, you're going to have an acquittal or jury nullification, period.
JENNINGS: Do you agree?
TRUSTY: No. But there was -- no, they'll meet you outside, Gene. Remember the facts of this atart with the judge saying, go through my jury door, which no lawyer, no defendant goes through.
PHILLIP: I just want to be clear that these are the facts according to a complaint, which we haven't seen any adjudication or dispute of it from the other side. So --
TRUSTY: As always, but also recognize the complaint is not based on cranky agents. It's interviews of people associated with the judge going, she was really mad, she wouldn't call the case out loud despite victims and prosecutors sitting there. She did something we've never seen with the backdoor. She's ushering him out. She's not saying they'll get you outside. She's trying to avoid justice.
But let me just say one thing, you know, for all the fury that Gene brings to the table. No defendant has a right to a summon --
ROSSI: It's affectionate. TRUSTY: Easy, Gene, easy. No, I like Gene. But, look, it's not a question of -- I mean, no defendant is entitled to say, I demand a summons or a self-surrender. And if somebody says in Milwaukee, this is a really egregious case because a judge tried to let a fugitive escape, they have the right to get a warrant. There's no great second guessing that that's some horribly political, you know, destruction of the system of justice. That happens every day for people we don't hear about.
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, back to your point on the Justice Department and the FBI director's role and the Attorney General's role, it is not the attorney general's role or the FBI director's role to put political points on the board. That is not what their role is.
And I think that what's happening, not only with this case, but what you've seen on attacks on the judiciary, the reason that there is such an outcry is, yes, it's shocking that they arrested a judge. But what's even more shocking is this is part of a pattern of attacking judges. And they're going -- they are. They're attacking judges left and right. And, Scott, you know this. They've been attacking judges left and right. Hold on. But I will say, and they're going to use this case as proof that everybody is against the president. They're going to use this example to attack every judge. This is what Donald Trump does. He attacks everybody who disagrees with him, and that is a dangerous place to be.
TRUSTY: Every judge that harbors fugitives is going to be targeted, it's terrible.
PHILLIP: Hold on. That's why when I started this conversation, I do think that it's easy to say that she was harboring a fugitive, but I think that it's also fair that even based on what the government is alleging here, that's not crystal clear. And I think that's the first part of it, because there might be a case where perhaps a judge is actually saying, go out that backdoor and make sure they don't see you and, you know, get out. But that's not really what happened here.
And on top of that, look, I think that Xochitl's point about the judges being part of the political game here is important. If it were happening in a vacuum, that would be one thing. But this is an administration that has attacked judges and they don't think the judges have a role in immigration enforcement stuff.
ROSSI: I'm not the political genius on this panel, okay, but I can tell you this. This happened on April 18th. They wait until today, okay? Mr. Trump, President Trump had a really bad week. And to me, Scott, this is a shiny object, wave it over the air. They have this big press conference. And I'm going to focus on this. When Kash Patel issued at X and called it a perp, called him a perp, and said we believe, and then he took it down, we had called --
JENNINGS: Well, they reissued it, did they not? So, look, here's the -- you said --
ROSSI: Okay. Then Kash Patel, who's head of the FBI, is an embarrassment.
JENNINGS: Let me just respond to something you said.
ROSSI: Yes, go ahead.
JENNINGS: Which is that you said, well, you got to worry about the impact on the community.
ROSSI: Yes.
JENNINGS: The president and the Justice Department and his people have to worry about the impact of illegal immigration on the country because nobody's been worried about that for years. And the reason this is important is because this is one of Donald Trump's biggest criminal justice priorities. And, frankly, it's one of the American people's biggest priorities to control this. And you know well there are people all over towns, all over this country who have been working overtime to try to stop him from executing on this agenda.
[22:15:04]
If she turns out to be one of them, a spectacle is warranted so other people will stop doing it.
PHILLIP: I appreciate, Scott, you saying if she turns out to be one of them because it is very much something that we that we will see what happens in this case.
But to your point about the popularity, I mean, I think for many weeks and months as you've been on this show, you talked about how popular Trump is on the issue of immigration. The latest polls though that are out today show some cracks in that. New York Times/Siena poll talks about, do voters think Trump has gone too far with immigration? 53 percent, a majority, say that he has gone too far. On this issue of deporting the international students who have visas, who are here legally, 59 percent oppose that.
So, there are some cracks showing when it comes to Trump and immigration because the how of it is starting to matter to Americans based on some of these numbers.
HINOJOSA: People don't like the chaos. And in the same New York Times/Siena poll, one of the issues that Donald Trump is really under the water, probably he's worst issue is the Maryland man who is in El Salvador right now. It's something that --
JENNINGS: Maryland man?
HINOJOSA: He is a Maryland man.
JENNINGS: Come on. He is an El Salvadorian citizen. He is not a Maryland man. He is an illegal immigrant living in this country illegally for 14 years.
HINOJOSA: You can say whatever you want to say, Scott, but the American people -- JENNINGS: This is why the poll is the way it is, because you're lying. You're lying.
HINOJOSA: We're not lying. The American people --
TRUSTY: And, Scott, the case orders were in Maryland, he was beating his wife.
HINOJOSA: The American people are seeing chaos. They do not like it. And this is they, immigration might be something that he, that is popular for Trump and now he's going underwater. But this case specifically is one of his lowest points with the American people.
PHILLIP: Scott, do you think that --
JENNINGS: (INAUDIBLE) you have to call this man a Maryland man? Yes or no? Of course it's not.
PHILLIP: Scott, do you think that -- it's interesting to me that you think that despite the administration yelling far and wide that this guy is a gang banging member of MS-13 despite, by the way, no evidence of that, do you think that some --
JENNINGS: Have you seen the knuckles?
PHILLIP: You know that -- okay, let's --
TRUSTY: It's also why he couldn't go back El Salvador because of gang retaliation.
PHILLIP: You think that even though they have been saying that about him for weeks, that is not penetrating and Americans are just misled and that's why they don't like how Trump has handled this?
JENNINGS: He has been saying that for weeks. And what has the entirety of the national news media been saying? He's a Maryland man. He's a mild-mannered suburban father. We have lied our rear ends off about this case. He is an El Salvador illegal immigrant. He came to the country 14 years ago illegally. There is a ton of evidence that he is involved in gang activity. There is a ton of evidence that he was involved in human trafficking.
PHILLIP: I guess I'm asking you to consider -- what I'm asking you to consider is, is it possible that the American people understand that about the case, but they also think that Trump should follow the judge's orders? Is it possible that that's the case?
JENNINGS: Is it possible the American people have been misled by the media about the circumstances of this case? He did have due process. He is illegal. He did have a deportation order. Then how did he go to court so many times?
HINOJOSA: He's never been indicted being a member of MS-13. Why doesn't Pam Bondi indict him on that?
PHILLIP: There's also a factor here, the judge made an order that she expects to be executed on, and it has not been. And that is the part that I think is salient to the American public about this case.
ROSSI: And here's the other thing. Judge Boasberg, the chief judge of D.C., what troubles me greatly, and it should trouble you too, being a DOJ guy, former, is that an order was issued in front of Judge Boasberg, and there is compelling evidence, compelling, Scott Jennings, that the DOJ, our former home, willfully violated court order of Chief Judge Boasberg. That offends me to no end. Forget the merits of whether he is a Maryland man or he is an MS-13.
JENNINGS: How can I forget that? It's viral.
ROSSI: Well, you're talking about the merits of his case, good or bad. But what really offends me is a Department of Justice where I worked for almost 30 years willfully violated a court order and they lied in court about their justification or their lack of knowledge. That should bother you more than anything else.
PHILLIP: We really got to go.
JENNINGS: Let me tell you what offends me. Is that there are people -- political party in this country dedicated to re-importing, illegal aliens, hand over fists, and it is outrageous. That's what offends me.
ROSSI: That's great rhetoric, but it ain't true.
PHILLIP: We got to leave it there, guys.
Gene Rossi, thank you very much, Jim Trusty, thank you as well for being here.
Coming up next, as the economy suffers, Trump keeps lying about it, including a new one, claiming that he has already made 200 trade deals. Kevin O'Leary is going to join us at the table.
Plus, Trump gives an eye-opening interview to TIME Magazine and claims that he doesn't seek credit.
[22:20:04]
We've got some tape to show you about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Rumors of Donald Trump's success have been greatly exaggerated by him. The president is about to cross that 100-day mark of his second term, and he's putting lots of achievements on his C.V. even if they didn't happen. The president telling TIME Magazine that the border wall is built while saying in the same breath that construction remains ongoing. He's also boasted that he brokered 200 trade deals, a sign of success in his reshuffling of the global economy, only the United States hasn't even put tariffs on 200 countries.
[22:25:04]
And this was his press secretary on the very same day of that interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We now have 18 proposals on paper that have been brought to the trade team.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Dan Koh and Kevin O'Leary joined the table. So, which one is it? Is it 18? Is it 200? Is it 70? Is it 76? Like where are we?
KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN, O'LEARY VENTURES AND SHARK TANK INVESTOR: Why don't we just pick one situation, focus on that, because the narrative around trade is about justifying tariffs in either direction. Let's just take India, which we know their narrative is going on. They charge 110 percent tariffs on completely constructed cars going in from America to India. They're saying, let's drop that. Let's go to zero. If that gets achieved, it's just one country, that's a huge win for the United States of America.
PHILLIP: If he is doing a lot of work there. And I also would say, that's a lot of words that doesn't answer my question.
O'LEARY: Maybe yes or no, maybe yes or no.
PHILLIP: How many deals, Kevin? I mean, I think that this is really important because he's giving himself 90 days, right, and we've been -- we're a few weeks into this now, and there has not been -- not even one deal, not even one deal in principle announced. So, realistically, if it's as simple as that with India, why not paper it tomorrow?
O'LEARY: So, there's actually 17 deals that matter. Think about this. A lot of these countries important to talk about, they don't matter. E.U., Britain, which is not part of the E.U., Switzerland, okay, Canada, Mexico, India, that's 72 percent of the pie. I don't care about the rest. I care about Thailand because I have a business there. I got it, I got it, but I don't care about the rest because these matter. And then there's the China stack. You got the China stack. That's not just trade, that's theft of I.P. and all kinds of problems with the World Trade Organization. I love the fact that we're talking about China, not the same.
But, frankly, if he just gets that small stack, that's 72 percent. Why don't you say, yippee yayow ki-yay, that's good?
PHILLIP: Doesn't it matter that he keeps claiming that there are deals, that there's progress, that there are talks and a lot of the parties involved are saying, I don't know about that?
O'LEARY: It doesn't matter.
PHILLIP: Why doesn't that matter, that he's not telling the truth about that?
DAN KOH, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DPEUTY CABINET SECRETARY, BIDEN ADMINISTRATION: The problem is there's no stack. And, look, Trump's playbook is when things aren't going his way, he deflects. And here's the reality of the situation. He said he was going to fix the economy. He has a 37 percent approval rating on the economy. He said he was going to end the war in Ukraine within 24 hours, the war is still going. He said that he was going to fix immigration, his approval rating is underwater. He says that he's going to fix tariffs and have great tariffs, he's got 34 percent approval rating on this.
So, this is just his way of distracting from the truth, which is everything that he fought for, that was his greatest strengths, frankly, during the election, are now becoming his greatest weaknesses.
PHILLIP: How much longer, Scott, does Trump have to say a lot of words but not produce any results?
JENNINGS: Well, I mean, he's not running again. I mean, I --
PHILLIP: Particularly on the economy.
JENNINGS: So, you know, he has a whole, he has a whole presidency to create results. But, look, I think over the next few months, he has got to do his part on the trade deals and the things he can do, and the Republicans in Congress have to do their part on making the tax cuts permanent, energy policy on the reconciliation bill, et cetera, et cetera.
At some point, these two are going to meet in the middle, hopefully, over the summer and you're going to see some positive progress on all these issues, particularly on the economy.
Just to dispute you on immigration, he has fixed immigration. The southern border is effectively closed. We have virtually no crossings going on right now. It's fixed. I don't even know why they need a wall now. Nobody wants to come here because they know if you come here, you're going to get thrown out by the Trump administration. So, that particular issue is, in my opinion, fixed and well on the way to being fixed forever.
But these other issues, he does have some balls in the air, but I think there's a strong possibility they're going to land correctly.
KOH: I would say the American people disagree with you.
PHILLIP: 71 percent --
KOH: Do you think it's better today or under Biden?
PHILLIP: 71 -- hold on. We got some answers, okay? Washington Post/ABC News/Ipsos poll, 71 percent say that Trump's tariffs will have a negative effect on inflation. Trump's handling of the economy is 55 percent disapproval for Trump. That is very bad because Trump typically gets pretty good marks on the economy by voters.
HINOJOSA: That's right. And just to answer your previous question, because that wasn't answered either, is there are no deals, he hasn't cut a deal. Trump is the first person, if there is a deal, to come out and yell to everybody that he has struck a deal. This is the way that he works. This is what he does. And so I don't think that there are any deals. I think he's bluffing.
I do think on the economy, if you're a Republican in Congress, I'd be worried. Once the American people start feeling this, once there are -- you know, the shelves are not stocked, all of these issues, that hurts the Republican Party. They control everything. They can't blame Joe Biden for the tariffs. They can't blame Democrats for unstocked shelves.
[22:30:01]
That's directly to the Republican Party. And heading into the midterm elections, they don't have -- it seems like a long time, but they don't have a long time because Trump believes that he has about a year or so, until this is somewhat resolved. And a year or so gives you six months until the midterm elections. And I'm a little -- I mean, American people should be worried.
JENNINGS: I agree with you. The Republicans are in charge, and the American people are going to expect results. But I think what they are going to do, particularly on the issues of making the tax cuts permanent and some of the other changes they're going to make, they're going to help millions of Americans on the tax front, are going to be far more popular than what the Democrats are going to be running on in the midterms.
So, the opportunity exists to get that right. The midterms are not until next November, so there is some space here for Trump's plan to work and for the Republicans in Congress to live up to the mantle of leadership.
PHILLIP: So -- so, one of the big questions they're facing is what happens for the millionaires on the tax front? Trump actually, it sounds like, has been hearing arguments about maybe allowing the taxes to be raised on millionaires. Should he do that?
O'LEARY: Never going to happen. Never going to happen. You know, the key to success is to maintain the tax code as it stands right now because you want more capital in the economy, not with the government. And I think that is what he actually got elected on.
PHILLIP: That sounds like a great argument against tariffs.
O'LEARY: Because remember our choices were -- remember the choices were, let's raise corporate taxes to the highest in 40 years or keep it under the tax code that Trump brought forward initially. The economy works better with low corporate taxes because more capital comes into the economy, and it has nothing to do with the trade fight at all.
Low taxes is what the American dream is all about. That's not -- so this narrative about is he going to raise corporate?
PHILLIP: I get that. I guarantee you -- zero. PHILLIP: I truly do not understand how you can make that statement and
square it with a tax, which is what a tariff is on consumers, which are regular Americans, not to mention the businesses that are also dealing with this. It is a tax, too.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, how can we anti-tax party then say, okay, tariffs for everybody -- 20 percent, 30 percent, 50 percent, 145 percent. How are you okay with that when you are opposed to tariffs?
O'LEARY: No, I'm not opposed to tariffs. I want 400 percent on China. I've said that countless times. Here's what I want. Think about this. Why are all these leaders --
PHILLIP: No, I know you're not opposed to tariffs. I'm saying you're opposed to taxes -- to taxes, and tariffs are taxes.
O'LEARY: Taxes are permanent. Tariffs are a negotiating weapon. Why is every -- every leader of every country in Europe showing up in Washington every week. They want to cut a deal. You don't like the fact that in nine weeks, they don't have a deal? No administration's ever tried to cut 60 deals at once. All you need to do is pen one.
Just pen one, whether it's India or E.U. or Britain, whatever it is, and that becomes the hallmark of all the rest. That's that stack. And then let's settle with China because that's a different story. And I love the fact that Xi's getting his head squeezed like a teenage pimple right now. I'm good with that.
PHILLIP: I think there's a lot of dispute about that. I think Xi is basically saying we're not talking to you right now. But I want to play one other element of what Trump said to "Time" magazine. He doesn't want a lot of credit for, I guess, all the great things that he has done, but he has asked for quite a lot of credit in the past. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We beat him on legislative approvals, for which I get no credit. This administration does a tremendous job and we don't get credit for it. We had a tremendous victory. We were given no credit. We had this, like, tremendous victory.
We get no credit at all. We put a brand new wall up. They give me no credit. We've done a great job. The press won't give us credit for it. We never got the credit for and we should have is getting us out of that COVID mess.
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Have you said thank you once in this entire meeting?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: A lot of times.
VANCE: No, in this entire meeting, you just say thank you -- (CROSSTALK)
ZELENSKYY: I said it a lot of times.
TRUMP: You have to be thankful.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: You don't have the cards.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I think that last one is particularly amusing because they're asking for credit for opposing aid to Ukraine, which kind of doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But anyway, not a hero.
KOH: I think saying that Donald Trump doesn't like getting credit is like saying Kevin O'Leary doesn't like royalty deals. The reality is this is a president who craves off attention and credit for everything that he does.
A couple things that weren't mentioned in that segment is that he wanted more credit for John McCain's funeral. He wanted more credit for making Juneteenth famous. There is nothing that this man doesn't want credit for.
JENNINGS: Yes. Has there ever been an American president that didn't want credit for anything?
KOH: Then why is it denying that he wants credit?
JENNINGS: There's -- there's every single president wants credit for the good things that happen. And a number of good things have happened when he was president the first time and when he's president right now, and he does deserve some credit for it, and he is constantly harangued and I think treated unfairly.
[22:35:00]
And I think some of these issues that we're talking about tonight, whether it's the immigration case or whether it's cutting of the trade deals, he does deserve a little bit of credit for standing up to China --
PHILLIP: I just wonder --
JENNINGS: -- and other issues. And so, I think he's got a point. I don't think he's getting some credit as well.
PHILLIP: I just wonder if there's ever a time when you think Trump is being treated fairly?
JENNINGS: Do I think he's being -- what do you mean?
PHILLIP: Like, you said he's constantly being treated unfairly. Has is he ever being treated fairly? Have you -- can you think of an example? JENNINGS: I mean, I treat him pretty fairly. I don't know about the
rest of you guys.
PHILLIP: I don't think -- I don't think -- I don't think constant praise counts, Scott.
PHILLIP: All right. Last word.
HINOJOSA: I mean, I would just say that as someone who says that he doesn't want credit, he is someone who watches television all day, every day, and is constantly any sort of criticism that comes his way, he attacks whether it's the reporter. He attacks CNN all the time. He attacks everybody. He believes that he is always being treated unfairly, probably more than any other president.
JENNINGS: No, every president believes that. Joe Biden believed that. Barack Obama believed that. Every president believes they don't get enough credit and that the press is out to get them every president believes that.
HINOJOSA: I will say Trump is a little different.
KOH: Joe Biden never banned journalists as a result of --
JENNINGS: Well, they threw 400 hard passes out of the briefing room. Repart of that decision.
PHILLIP: All right, we don't have time to get into all of that. Coming up next for us, she draws massive crowds. She's a lightning rod for MAGA. So, how formidable of a political force is Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez? We'll debate that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:41:01]
PHILLIP: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She is popular. She is populist. But is she enough of both to run for president? Some say to start thinking about it. And seriously, AOC is drawing huge crowds. She's turning events into slickly produced videos that have the scent of a bid for the highest office in the nation. It has even Meghan McCain convinced that she's running and that people discount the idea and AOC at their own peril.
I just want to play a little bit from this video where she filmed a part of it in Idaho of all places. Just listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): You know, Idaho, I am so touched being here. I'm a girl from The Bronx. To be welcomed here in this state, all of us together, seeing our common cause, this is what this country is all about.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: I've seen a heck of a lot of presidential announcement videos just like that. And I think that you can't discount the ability in a completely off year of a random congressperson to put together tens of thousands of people in red states like Idaho.
HINOJOSA: I think that when our party is thirsty for leadership and hungry for leadership, especially young, dynamic, diverse leadership when most of our leadership right now, like Chuck Schumer and others are older, white males, you know, you -- you're going to get crowds like this. You're going to get the news attention.
People are going to say that you're potentially running for president. If I were AOC, I actually wouldn't run for president. I think that one of the things that she can do in the presidential election is be an incredibly effective surrogate. And I think that she would -- could utilize her lists.
She could go out there and campaign. She can draw the crowd. She can do that kind of stuff. I do think that the party is looking for someone who is going to be more moderate, who can bring all sides together, including Republicans, and I am not sure she can do that.
PHILLIP: Okay. So Kevin, if Meghan McCain says discount her at your peril, but she is a populist. She is like -- this is about class politics, working-class people, some of the same people Donald Trump appeals to. Does that worry you as a not (inaudible) person?
O'LEARY: AOC has (inaudible) respect for. I buy her T-shirts for $39.95 -- "Tax the Rich". They're very popular in Miami Beach, I wear them. Some -- I give them to people. She has an 82 percent margin on that, proving that inside of every socialist is a capitalist trying to get out. But, however, I would say this about her.
You know, the ambassador of America, the CEO, the president, they have to embody the American dream. That's their number one job. Our number one export is not technology or energy. It's the American dream. People come to America to achieve the American dream. She embodies the American nightmare.
PHILLIP: How so?
O'LEARY: And so, she could never --
PHILLIP: How so?
O'LEARY: -- because she doesn't believe that people should succeed in wealth, and this is a huge problem for her. What makes America so -- no, no --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What if she believes that the only success is not wealth? I mean she came from very modest backgrounds. She was a waitress. I mean, I think that story, a lot of people would say that is the American dream. I think that is what --
O'LEARY: She does not support -- she does not support capitalism.
PHILLIP: No, I'm -- I'm saying, I guess what I'm saying is, like, what if she's a democratic socialist, but that's that. But I -- what if some Americans say the -- the most important thing is not facilitating the rich getting richer? That is literally the message to run on.
O'LEARY: You just -- you just tainted the American dream with that statement. Do you understand that? You tainted what makes America work. You should take that back. I forgive you for that. I forgive you for that. Don't ever say that again.
PHILLIP: All I am suggesting, Kevin, is that there are many Americans who work really hard, and their aspiration is not to become supremely wealthy.
[22:45:03]
It is to have strong family units. It is to have community. It is to have a sense of purpose. It is to contribute to their environment. There are many Americans for whom just being filthy rich is not the American dream. Do you understand that?
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: I want to forgive you, but you're making it hard.
PHILIP: But do you understand that? I mean, am I wrong that there are not many Americans in this country who -- they have aspirations that are outside of building unimaginable wealth?
JENNINGS: Well, I think I --
PHILLIP: How is that controversial?
JENNINGS: I think there's a long way from, you know, having the dream of building unimaginable wealth to also having, you know, a lot of people just want the aspiration.
PHILLIP: According to Kevin, I'm besmirching the American dream.
JENNINGS: The aspiration to not have to struggle every day. I mean --
PHILLIP: Exactly.
JENNINGS: and to have a job or have career or have a business that allows them to live a life where they're not --
PHILLIP: Totally.
JENNINGS: -- living paycheck to paycheck, living under constant anxiety. And so, I agree with Kevin. The American dream is believing that you live in a country where if you achieve the status that you want to achieve so that you're not struggling or that you are filthy rich, that some politician is not going to come along and try to take it away from you and tell you you're the enemy. That's her program. If you made it, if you worked hard and you have
talent, she says you're corrupt and you're the enemy and that's why I think Kevin's right, it's not going to fly.
PHILLIP: Dan, last word.
KOH: I think it's important to take a step back which is 75 percent of eligible Democratic primary voters don't turn out. And our approval rating, as Scott likes to remind us, is at 27 percent. The Democratic Party needs to be inspired. I think AOC is inspiring people right now. In her way, I think you're seeing Secretary Buttigieg inspire people.
Tens of millions of people have seen his appearance on a right leaning podcast, and you look at the comments and people are saying, I've never considered voting for a Democrat before, and now they are. It's also important to take a step back and realize that Vice President Harris is still leading most of the polls out there. So, anyone who's telling you right now that they know where this is going to go is lying to you.
HINOJOSA: Now, there will be a 20 person primary. Yes, absolutely.
PHILLIP: Well --
HINOJOSA: And we, then we will fight it out.
PHILLIP: And there are many names that were not mentioned here. I won't -- I won't mention them, but, George Clooney has. So, you can look that one up. Coming up next, the panel gives us their night caps, happy place edition.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:51:52]
PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap. In honor of CNN's new original series, "My Happy Place" where your favorite stars take you to their favorite places, you each have 30 seconds to tell us your happy place. Kevin, you're first.
O'LEARY: I have a lake house. I'm not saying where it is, but it's where I zone out. I go to the dock, 4:30 after markets close, Montrachet glass of white on one side of the Muskoka chair, and on the other side, a Pinot. And I just -- and one with the lake, and the fish come up and smile at me, and I'm in my happy place.
PHILLIP: Two glasses of wine, like the two watches.
O'LEARY: Yeah, always two watches. You got to have two watches.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Dan.
KOH: Sitting in the center field of bleachers at Fenway Park with the Sam Adams watching the Red Sox beat the Yankees.
PHILLIP: All right. Xochitl. HINOJOSA: I have to agree with Eva Longoria on this. Spain, I think, is one of the best places. And she has a new special, which just comes out on Sunday, another one. And so, with the food and the people and the culture, that is by far the best.
PHILLIP: Scott.
JENNINGS: I just think, 10:00 at night, sitting at a table, being fussed at by five people at the same time. You know, it's pretty much my, no. You know what my happy place is? National parks. I love national parks. I like to take my kids to the national parks. They are the crown jewels of America. There I am at -- that's Devil's Tower in Wyoming, by the way, with a couple of my boys.
PHILLIP: That's pretty cool.
JENNINGS: But they are, any national park, and they're all great. And I just -- and whenever I get a chance, I visit them when I'm doing my travels, and they're awesome.
PHILLIP: All right, let's hope they stay open. My happy place is anywhere there is a beach. Don't forget, you can check out more happy places starting with the Scottish Highlands, CNN's new original series, my happy place, premieres this Sunday at 10 P.M. right here on CNN. Thank you all for being here.
Coming up next, a first look at my upcoming special featuring Trump's first 100 days. See what we discovered.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:30]
A global trade war, DOGE cuts, sweeping arrests and deportations -- all of them hallmarks of the first 100 days of Trump's second term.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have accomplished more in 43 days than most administrations accomplished in four years.
UNKNOWN: Words that I would use to describe this current presidency is intense, wide reaching, impactful.
TRUMP: In some cases, they'll fire people and then they'll put some people back, not all of them.
UNKNOWN: Focused, dangerous, ambitious.
TRUMP: The U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip, and we will do a job with it, too.
UNKNOWN: Shocking, startling.
TRUMP: You're not in a good position.
ZELENSKYY: I was -- I was --
TRUMP: You don't have the cards right now.
UNKNOWN: Fast pace, unrelenting, chaotic.
TRUMP: I know what the hell I'm doing.
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN ANCHOR: Trump comes to the second presidency with a view that the United States has gone seriously awry. It's seriously off track. And a lot of that is the elites, the established institutions, the government. And so, what he's trying to do is mostly tear it down, burn it down. Maybe there will be a period of creation after that, but right now, the purpose is very much disrupt and destroy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Sunday, don't miss my episode of "The Whole Story", the first 100 days of the second Trump presidency.
[23:00:00]
How far is the president willing to go to reshape America and expand his presidential power? "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper", it airs this Sunday night at 8 P.M. on CNN. Thank you very much for everyone joining tonight and watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
