Return to Transcripts main page
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Lashes Out As Polls Show Historic Lows For A President; Trump Claims That Tariff Revenue Would End Income Taxes; Canadian Media Projects Liberals To Form Government; Trump Nominee Praises Nazi Sympathizer; Trump Asks If Military Can Be Used To Fight Domestic Crime. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 28, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, first, the honeymoon, now the reality. Americans vent against Donald Trump as his sequel nears the century mark and the marriage is tied in knots.
Plus, to win the masses back, the MAGA king becomes a daydream believer.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Because I think the tariffs will be enough to cut all of the income tax.
PHILLIP: Also, the president's top pick to be U.S. attorney is linked to an alleged Nazi sympathizer.
And some liberals stage a sit-in while others stage a revolt.
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D-IL): These Republicans cannot know a moment of peace.
PHILLIP: As voters ask for directions, Democrats scrap over the map.
Live at the table, Ana Navarro, Kevin O'Leary, Ashley Allison and Batya Ungar-Sargon.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillips in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, on his 99th day, if Donald Trump's got 99 problems, polls are definitely one of them. Here is a snapshot, the lowest approval for any president at this point in seven decades. Nearly 60 percent of Americans say the economy is bad, tariffs are bad, and Trump made all of these worse. 70 percent expect a recession. And remember, the economy used to be where Trump scored the highest in terms of approval and why voters gave him a second chance. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a businessman first, and when you run a business, you have to live within your budget.
That's his biggest advantage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At the end of the day, I want a person that's going to fix the economy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like I said, he's going to take a look at what's going to be best for the economy.
TRUMP: We will launch the most extraordinary economic boom the world has ever seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And in typical fashion, the reaction to the polls from Trump himself is measured. He calls the polling corrupt, compromised, sad, fake, negative, sick. He's even demanding investigations into pollsters who he calls cheats and criminals. But the hard truth is even showing up on MAGA media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL ROVE, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH WHITE HOUSE OFFICIAL: When it gets to the economy, he is in very bad shape, and it's not only that he's, in the short-term, in bad shape. There's also evidence in the poll that no matter -- even if he gets his way on certain things like tariffs, that he's not good in the long run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, now the more the polls show Trump hitting a wall, the more spaghetti he's throwing at that wall.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We are going to cut taxes for the people of this country. It'll take a little while before we do that, but we're going to be cutting taxes. And as possible we'll do a complete tax cut because I think the tariffs will be enough to cut all of the income tax.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Economic Expert Sheelah Kolhatkar. She's a staff writer at The New Yorker.
This seems, Sheelah, like an admission of Trump, that the tariffs are raising prices and that he may need to do something to help Americans out in the face of rising prices.
SHEELAH KOLHATKAR, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: He was elected specifically to try and help improve the economic picture for middle class families and to create more prosperity and opportunity to bring down prices.
If there's a connection between his tariffs and those things happening, he has not demonstrated what that connection would be. I mean, I think I've said this before, you know, imposing tariffs doesn't lead to great, secure middle class jobs suddenly appearing across the Midwest. I mean, those things take serious investment. They take a really long-term timeframe. And just imposing tariffs, it just literally causes business owners to have to write a check to the government anytime they collect goods from outside of the country that they need to run their operation.
PHILLIP: Yes. And the verdict is not subtle at all on the part of voters. 59 percent say he worsened conditions in the economy. This is after all that you heard from those voters there.
[22:05:01]
A majority of Americans don't have a positive view of the economy. 71 percent say current economic conditions are poor. This is way worse than it was when he got into office.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I mean, if we were holding an election right now, and this is what voters were saying, we would be worried for the candidate. I mean, it's only the first 100 days, so he has some time, but the question is, will his policies self-correct? And based on many of the economic experts, it doesn't seem like that is the pathway forward.
The other thing is there are some -- we are in such a hyper-partisan time that the folks who support Democrats and the folks who support Republicans are there. I don't actually think folks are moving that much, especially after this last election. But it's all those folks in the middle, and he's losing those individuals right now. And the reality is that there is a midterm, and, I mean, the clock has started. It's like basically a year when primaries start to happen.
If this -- if his economic policies don't actually have the impact that he said he would promise, Republicans are going to lose in 2026.
PHILLIP: Batya, it seems kind of hard to dispute that, that if things go the way that they're going now, things are not looking good. Even Republicans are saying that because they're worried they have to run in 18 months or so.
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, AUTHOR, SECOND CLASS, HOW THE ELITES BETRAYED AMERICA'S WORKING MEN AND WOMEN: I think that there are a lot of things we could all agree about were utterly unsustainable in terms of our relationship with China. And the only way to get out of that unsustainable situation was always going to hurt. And so I don't blame Americans for realizing that and recognizing that.
But if I could just mention a few of the other things that he's accomplished in the last 100 days that I think we all could agree are good things. Border crossing down to almost zero, the lowest in recorded history, Deportations of gang bangers, 10 percent global --
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Alleged, alleged.
UNGAR-SARGON: What do you mean? There are many that are not alleged.
NAVARRO: No. Well, when 60 Minutes did their report, it found that 75 percent of the people have been sent to El Salvador --
UNGAR-SARGON: You don't dispute that there were gang bangers deported?
NAVARRO: But I dispute that the 238 Venezuelans that were sent to CECOT in El Salvador all have ties to gangs. They may all have tattoos.
UNGAR-SARGON: Let's put that aside.
ALLISON: But, Batya, if any of that making stuff more affordable --
UNGAR-SARGON: I'm getting there. I'm getting there.
KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN, O'LEARY VENTURES: CBS is really credible.
UNGAR-SARGON: We've only got an hour.
O'LEARY: Really credible. They don't edit any interviews.
PHILLIP: Oh, okay.
NAVARRO: Everybody edits interviews, Kevin.
O'LEARY: They are the wrong --
NAVARRO: Shark tank edits too. Everybody edits.
PHILLIP: That's a complete non-sequitur, okay? It's unrelated to the conversation. First of all, Trump had his interviews edited by Fox. That issue with CBS is being litigated, but it's not likely to be successful.
O'LEARY: I'm glad it's being litigated.
PHILLIP: Because editing interviews is allowed in the United States of America and it wasn't edited deceptively.
But, anyway, we're moving on because that is not part of the conversation. Continue what you were saying.
UNGAR-SARGON: Yes. Can I get through a few more of these? He got two dozen hostages out of Gaza, $1.5 trillion in manufacturing investment committed to the United States, transparency in foreign funding of universities, vocational training, A.I. training, lowering prescription drugs, the tariffs, which are going a long way towards reorienting our relationship, making us solvent as a nation in a way that we cannot be with the current relationship with China.
PHILLIP: I want to come back to some -- I mean, some of the things that you described there, a lot of people would dispute prescription drugs being a big one of them that struck out to me. But, secondly, I mean, voters are saying pretty clearly they are unhappy. His approval rating has dropped significantly. It's at its lowest point for any president in many decades, and it's a lowest point for him. So, all of those things being said, they are unhappy. They don't think that he's doing a good job and they don't think that he's addressing their number one concern --
NAVARRO: No, there's very few things that Donald Trump has done in these first 100 days that he didn't say he was going to do. But I think the detail -- the devil's in the detail, and I think the detail is in the way he has done it, right? He said he was going to deport criminal illegal aliens. He's deporting U.S. citizens, children with cancer. He said that, you know, he wouldn't impose tariff. I don't know that people, when people voted for that, they thought it was going to be 145 percent tariff on China and the way he was going to do it. I don't know that they thought he was going to impose tariffs on penguins on a deserted island.
So, he said he was going to go after corruption and waste. I don't know that when they voted for that, they thought it was going to be DOGE and that they were going to be cutting hundreds of thousands of federal employees with absolutely no feeling of empathy. I don't think they knew that he was going to come in with a wrecking ball and do the things that he promised. But there's very few things that he's done that he didn't say he was going to do.
[22:10:01]
PHILLIP: He says also, Kevin, that he's going to pay for this major tax cut, basically eliminating an income tax on people making under $200,000 a year, which, before you say it, I'm sure would be very popular, he says he's going to do that with the tariffs. But take a look at this assessment by Apollo Global Management and Fitch. He would basically need to raise tariffs to about 100 percent in order to pay for this plan. I mean, it's just not logical.
But let's talk about that. I mean, is he just throwing things out that he thinks will make people like him when he can't pay for it and he can't execute on it?
O'LEARY: Let's be pragmatic with tariffs and not get emotional about it. They are short-term weaponry. Let's just take India for an example.
PHILLIP: You might tell that to --
O'LEARY: I'm sure, trying to convince all of you this is good policy.
PHILLIP: But, Kevin, you might want to tell that to the president. I want to deal in the real world.
O'LEARY: Let me ask you a question.
PHILLIP: Because in the real world, when Donald Trump says, I want to pay for eliminating the income tax with tariffs, that doesn't sound to me like a man who thinks this is just a short-term negotiation. O'LEARY: Why would you think any individual in government that doesn't face an election gives a damn about polls? They don't. He's not facing an election again. It's over. He's done.
So, let's get back to reality. Let's take tariffs in the context of something everybody can understand. Tata Motors in India makes the Jaguar car, okay? We want to sell an American car in India. They charge us 110 percent tariffs. We charge them nothing to bring the Jag into the U.S. Why is that fair?
Let's just stay focused for one second on that. All he's saying in his policy -- and I don't want to be about Trump, I don't shill for politicians, I shill for policy. What's wrong with saying to India, hey, India, it's not okay to charge us 110 percent on our assembled car into your nation when we charge you practically nothing on yours, the Jaguar, coming into the United States. What's wrong with either parity on tariffs? We whack you with 110 or bring them back to zero. The Indian guy comes over here and says, okay, big guy, let's go to zero, okay? And what's wrong with that? Tell me what's wrong with that? What's wrong with that?
KOLHATKAR: I don't think what's wrong with that. I don't think anyone is suggesting that tariffs used very strategically --
O'LEARY: I rest my case, your Honor,
KOLHATKAR: -- very strategically are a useful tool. It is the way it's being done, the flip flopping, the uncertainty.
O'LEARY: Oh, you don't like the volatility?
KOLHATKAR: The uncertainty that every business owner now has to face when they plan hiring.
O'LEARY: I want you to get over volatility. It's only been 100 days. Relax.
ALLISON: Tell 59 percent of Americans to get over it. That's the reality.
O'LEARY: Let it simmer. Let it -- listen, you got to let it simmer. You got to let it work. You've got to give it time.
ALLISON: Okay. Americans, let it simmer, as you give the example for a word --
O'LEARY: Let it marinate.
ALLISON: Okay, as you cannot even marinate chicken because you can't afford it right now in Trump's America.
O'LEARY: That's nothing to do with tariffs on motor.
ALLISON: As we give examples of Jaguars, how many people making under $200,000 can even buy a Jaguar?
O'LEARY: What does that have to --
ALLISON: We're talking --
O'LEARY: Listen --
ALLISON: What does it have to do? We're talking about --
NAVARRO: Are Jaguars manufactured in India?
O'LEARY: What's wrong with --
NAVARRO: They're owned by Tata, which is an Indian company. But are Jaguars manufactured in India?
O'LEARY: Tata Motors --
NAVARRO: Is owned by an Indian --
O'LEARY: Yes, so get over it. It's a fact.
NAVARRO: But they're not manufactured in India.
O'LEARY: Listen, they charge -- they do not let us ship an American car --
NAVARRO: Okay. So, are you going to put a tariff on the company or are you going to put a tariff on the cars?
O'LEARY: Okay. You're okay with the --
NAVARRO: Are you're okay?
PHILLIP: Kevin, are they manufactured in India? I haven't looked this up, but are they manufactured in India?
O'LEARY: They make them all over the world as American cars companies do too.
PHILLIP: Well, look, I mean --
O'LEARY: I think you should focus on the fact.
PHILLIP: Well, no, I mean, we are, but I think we're --
NAVARRO: Put on the Indian --
PHILLIP: (INAUDIBLE) also on the question of -- first of all, it's been four weeks. There have been zero deals, okay? So, again, every day --
O'LEARY: Four weeks, oh my goodness. You couldn't get a deal done in four weeks?
PHILLIP: Well, Kevin, you know, it was an option for this administration to --
O'LEARY: So, need you to do 24 hours, right?
PHILLIP: It was an option for this administration to pursue a strategy of deals before slapping tariffs on the whole world. That could have happened too, right?
O'LEARY: I'm just suggesting.
PHILLIP: And I don't know -- and I think, Batya, I don't know if anyone, even people who agree with you about the need to deal with trade barriers, you know, the tariffs and then the non-tariff trade barriers, would disagree that that needs to be addressed. But, again, it's how, right? It is the how.
UNGAR-SARGON: But I think that the very thing that he's being criticized for is the thing that worked. If he had come in and very nicely and politely gone to each of these countries --
PHILLIP: What worked? Which worked? What worked?
UNGAR-SARGON: I'm trying to explain. If he had very nicely and calmly and politely gone to each of these countries and said, look, you've been screwing us over, you've been screwing over the American working class for 40 years and we're not going to take it anymore. Let's sit down and have like a nice conversation. Why won't you -- how about you bring down those tariffs? Let's meet halfway.
PHILLIP: Has it worked?
UNGAR-SARGON: They would've said, no way.
[22:15:00]
I'll tell you what worked. He picked up a baseball bat. He whacked the stock market, and now they're all sitting there in a state of relief that it's only a 10 percent tariff and they are coming to the table. That's how you know that it worked.
PHILLIP: I'm legitimately confused. So, Trump destroying 20 percent of wealth in the country over the last four months. Who wins from that?
UNGAR-SARGON: That's not true.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on, Kevin. Don't interrupt me.
O'LEARY: Well, I want facts here, Abby.
PHILLIP: Who benefits when the stock market drops and people lose value in both their investments and also in terms of the companies?
UNGAR-SARGON: We have 70 countries trying now to get a deal. So, yes, it's been four weeks and we don't have a deal yet. They're working. They're very close to announcing them. India and Vietnam both announced tariffs on China. You think they would've done that if Trump hadn't shown that he was serious about standing up for the American working class and that he doesn't work for Wall Street?
PHILLIP: How have the American people benefited is the question that I'm asking in this period.
UNGAR-SARGON: $1.5 trillion period manufacturing.
PHILLIP: Those are commitments that have not materialized in a single --
UNGAR-SARGON: In four weeks? Do you know how long it takes to build these things?
KOLHATKAR: Most of those are press releases and pictures with shovels and then it never happens. And you can go back -- that is always --
PHILLIP: We have seen this --
(CROSSTALKS)
O'LEARY: Can we just talk about facts for a moment? April 3rd was a meltdown based on the tariff announcements. The stock market has recovered, 52 percent of those since then. As we wait to see the outcomes of the India agreement, the E.U. agreement, the U.K. agreement, the Swiss agreement, the Thailand agreement, Japanese agreement, Canadian agreement, Mexican agreement, no administration has ever done 60 trade agreements at once.
I agree with you, that's chaotic, including this one. But all you care about is 17 deals, except China.
PHILLIP: Listen, when I say that, you know, 20 percent, that's not me saying that. Ken Griffin, who is a Trump supporter, donated, he said that last week. He said that --
NAVARRO: Ken Griffin is the CEO of Citadel?
PHILLIP: Yes.
NAVARRO: He is a staunch Republican, has been so for many years. And I think what he said is something that we need to take stock on. He said, America's brand has been damaged. And that's something that's not going to be reversed in 30 seconds or 30 days or 100 days.
It's also done a number on American consumers and their psyche. People are not spending. It's done a number on tourists that come to America. Tourism is down. Go down the street and ask the people in Miami, Kevin. Tourism is down by double digits. Canadians, where you are from, don't want to come to the --
O'LEARY: No. Canada can't come here first to go wipe them out.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on, last word here.
ALLISON: Like I hear a lot of folks come on here and talk about the working class folks. But I just would encourage you to go have a conversation with the working class. Let me finish. Let me actually finish. Because if you actually do, they will not feel like they have recovered. They will feel like things are still more expensive. They will feel like their retirement is struggling. They will feel very unstable.
And, I mean, we just lived this. We weren't listening to working class people. The polls, maybe they lie. Maybe they're uncredible, like Donald Trump says, but that's what the working class people are saying.
PHILLIP: All right. We do have to leave it there. Sheelah Kolhatkar, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else stay with us.
Coming up next, we've got some breaking news from the White House, Donald Trump ordering the DOJ and the Pentagon to determine if the U.S. military can be used to fight domestic crime. Another special guest is going to join us at our table.
Plus, Trump's picked to be U.S. attorney, one of the top law enforcement jobs in this country is linked to an alleged Nazi sympathizer. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Breaking news, Canada's Liberal Party is projected by Canadian media to form the government in the nation's elections, which means Mark Carney will keep his job as prime minister.
Now, it's not clear whether they'll be in the majority or the minority, but remember here, President Trump weighed in on this, of course, trolling Canada to become America's 51st state.
So, Trump seems to have handed this one to the liberals. The conservatives had a pretty big lead before Trump started talking about the 51st state. And then this morning, Trump sends out a truth Social Post that says, if Canada becomes the cherished 51st state the United States of America, no more artificially drawn line from many years ago. Look how beautiful this landmass would be. It makes no sense unless Canada is a state.
O'LEARY: It's remarkable.
PHILLIP: That pissed people off.
O'LEARY: It's remarkable what happened because Carney actually did the policy for the Liberal Party that devastated the Canadian country and brought poverty to 25 percent of the population. And he was masterfully able to say, stop looking at my past record. Look at this guy at the south the border. He's evil and he wants to eat us. And I will defend you because I was once in a room with him years ago. It was brilliant.
PHILLIP: I know. And Trump made it easy. O'LEARY: Now, I don't know if it's going to win a majority government. It's too tight right now. I'm watching the polls myself. If he wins a minority, it's kind of misery for him because then the liberals and the Democrats -- or the conservatives, sorry, in Canada will have to fight it out to get policy and, of course it's so divided.
PHILLIP: But this is Trump doing this essentially.
O'LEARY: No. Trump actually -- you're right.
[22:25:00]
PHILLIP: Yes.
O'LEARY: He decided the fate of the Canadian election and unfortunately it went against him in the sense that he would've been better off with conservative government. Because now --
PHILLIP: Let me just play a little bit of -- this is some sound from voters who, going to the polls today, talked about why they were voting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most top of mind is Canadian sovereignty and maintaining that Canada continues to be a sovereign nation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think who I voted for would be the best to take care of Trump because Trump is, I'm sorry to say, an (BLEEP). And he shouldn't even be president of the United States. But because he is, we need a strong person so that we can stand strong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, I think the people are always asking, is he joking, is he serious? He keeps talking about it, and he talks about it incredibly seriously, Ana.
NAVARRO: Well, I mean, whether he's serious or he's joking is frankly not the point because what he has effectively achieved is to antagonize ally after ally, right? He is a domestic factor in politics in Mexico, in Panama, in Canada. All of these were our friends and our allies. And he is the deciding factor in some of these elections and what happens there. And also, I'm telling you this, you know, as a Floridian, I am extremely worried by all of the Canadians and the French and the Europeans and the Mexicans who are telling me they are canceling their trips and their vacations to the United States.
O'LEARY: They're not casting --
NAVARRO: Oh, yes, they are.
O'LEARY: Canadians and Americans have the same DNA. They can't afford to come to the U.S. anymore. Their dollar's lost 40 percent of its value.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I didn't go deep on the dollar, right, but I'm just saying --
O'LEARY: It's worthless.
PHILLIP: Canadians have said that they don't want to come because of Trump, and not just to Florida, but places like Maine, right across the border. I mean, look, you can make an argument about the dollar, but I think it's really about the politics of it all.
UNGAR-SARGON: But there's something very ironic about them talking about sovereignty because, of course, Justin Trudeau suspended all civil liberties in Canada over the Freedom Convoy by invoking the Emergencies Act. He imprisoned political prisoners. Two of them are still in prison, Tony Olienick and Chris Carbert. And he just has this face of liberalism, but it's actually authoritarianism.
And so to see he's gone -- I know, but I'm saying they're voting for his party all over again.
(CROSSTALKS)
UNGAR-SARGON: There's been no sense that anybody has owed anything.
PHILLIP: Don't Canadians get to decide who runs their country?
O'LEARY: They have made a decision, but you are right. Trudeau was the idiot king. And Carney was able to get the stink office suit from that because he gave all the policy, including a bill called C-69, which stopped capital coming to Canada.
PHILLIP: Ashley, go ahead.
ALLISON: No, I yield.
DAVE ARONBERG, FORMER U.S. STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY, FLORIDA: Well, no, I mean it's Canada nice. They got the Canadians to start cursing, right? I mean, remember Trump said we're going to get respected around the world again, but now we're hated. I mean, you got Canadians boycott in Florida.
NAVARRO: You should see the things they say about him in Spanish in Panama and Mexico.
ALLISON: I mean, I think -- yes, fine, sure, everything you said. And Donald Trump said that they were -- he was going to make Canada the 51st state, and come to find out people don't actually like to be spoken about like that. They actually like to be treated with some respect. And so he activated a base of his party.
I think this is actually interesting, though, when you look at it on the global setting. Many countries were actually starting to vote more and more conservative, and Canada is -- this is a trend. Now, based on the first 99 days, it seems like Trump has a strategy of activating and antagonizing our allies. And as future national elections come up with different countries where they were starting to lean more conservative, I'm interested to see if it activates another part across the globe to start pushing back on actual authoritarianism, not what Justin Trudeau was doing.
ARONBERG: Yes. That Liberal Party was about to get crushed in those elections before Trump started talking about the 51st state. So, the liberals should owe Donald Trump a gift basket. He's the one who got them elected.
PHILLIP: Either way, if they had become part of America, it would've been yet another liberal state. I don't know if Donald Trump would've liked that very much.
Coming up next, the president's picked to be U.S. attorney is linked to an alleged Nazi sympathizer.
Plus, more Democratic leaders are calling for liberals to be more aggressive and to fight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRITZKER: They have to understand that we'll fight their cruelty with every megaphone and microphone that we have.
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR POLICY: His comments, if nothing else, can be construed as inciting violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:34:21]
PHILLIP: Tonight, an about-face from President Trump's controversial pick to be Washington D.C.'s top prosecutor. Ed Martin, who's currently serving as the district's interim U.S. attorney, now says he regrets praising a January 6th rioter, Timothy Hale Cusanelli, an alleged Nazi sympathizer who's seen here donning a Hitler style mustache.
Now, Martin recently told a Jewish publication, quote, "I denounce everything about what that guy said, about everything, about the way he talked, and all I've seen as of -- I -- all -- I've now seen it, as I've now seen it, at the time, I didn't know it." But a CNN K-FILE review of Martin's podcast shows that he actually repeatedly celebrated Hale-Cusanelli in an interview with him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ED MARTIN, U.S. ATTORNEY: Tim Hale is an extraordinary guy. I've gotten to know him really well. I'd say we're friends. Tim Hale has the distinction of being a guy that went to jail, prison, for almost three plus years on fake charges. The great thing about Tim Hale is he's, he's got a great attitude.
Our next guest is my friend Timothy Hale. Tim Hale has the distinction of, being one of the most aggrieved, most poorly treated, January 6th defendants. And basically they made it up, and they made him suffer, and he's an amazing guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Introducing you, a late-- a segment late, David Ehrenberg. He's a former U.S. attorney for Palm Beach County and a former Democratic state senator. Dave, there are a lot of reasons why Ed Martin is a -- interesting choice for U.S. attorney in addition to the fact that he claimed that these charges, which were not made up, were made up, but he also repeatedly, praised this guy who -- and he knew exactly what he was accused of.
I'm just going to play a little bit more of him literally talking about that image that we were just showing you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: In your case, they used your phone and took a photo and leaked the photo to say, ah, look. These people -- these people, MAGA people, I don't know, are anti-Semitic. And the photo was of you. You've always -- I've heard you say it before.
You know, you -- you had like a mustache shaved in such a way that you looked vaguely like Hitler and making jokes about it. Again, not, you know, not -- not your best moment, but not illegal. But --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Looking vaguely like Hitler. Also, the photos were not leaked.
DAVE ARONBERG (D) FORMER FLORIDA STATE SENATOR: And a prosecutor should know that, except Ed Martin was never a prosecutor before being appointed to be the head prosecutor for Washington D.C. The guy has no business to be in this position.
And, you know, it's cool if you want to call yourself wonderful, that's all right. But if you start calling someone else extraordinary like you did to this other guy, you better be sure he's not wearing a Hitler mustache. He knew all about him, and --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Seems like a small thing.
AARONBERG: -- and had his head in the sand at the very least.
PHILLIP: Seems like a small thing to not wear a Hitler mustache. We were talking about this the other day when you were on the show, Batya. I mean, I think a lot of people really raise questions about how authentic this concern about anti-S emitism is when these people are being freely welcomed into the fold here of the -- the MAGA movement.
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, AUTHOR, "SECOND CLASS: HOW THE ELITES BETRAYED AMERICA'S WORKING MEN AND WOMEN": This is totally inexcusable. I mean, he was literally sitting there trying to make excuses for the fact that he dressed up like Hitler. This guy hates blacks. He hates Jews. Not -- not Ed Martin, but the guy that he was praising.
And he was trying to get him out of this gnarly situation, you know, trying to rescue his reputation. And at some point, he says to him on that podcast, like, well, you never went to a Nazi rally, right? I mean, at that point, you've lost, right? Like, you know, there -- there -- he's right that a lot of people in the MAGA movement have been painted unfairly as Nazis, but the way that you make that point is by making sure that you're not praising Nazis and a little bit failed here.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, what does that mean about Ed Martin's character then? Like, if you want to justify or trying to find or make it -- make the punishment of dressing up like Hitler not seem so bad, doesn't that kind of make Ed Martin disqualified?
UNGAR-SARGON: I think that's, yeah. Yeah. I do. Yeah.
ALLISON: Oh, great.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And then you're kind of -- and then you're lying about how much you know this guy.
UNGAR-SARGON: Yeah.
NAVARRO: And K file brings out the receipts. When K file brings out the receipts, you, you know, you better just own act on it.
UNGAR-SARGON: Amen, sister.
NAVARRO: But, you know, the, let -- let's remember though that U.S. attorneys are, senate-confirmed, right?
PHILLIP: Yeah.
NAVARRO: So, there's going to be senators that's going to --
PHILLIP: This is already going to be an issue. Yeah.
NAVARRO: So, there's -- there's going to be senators who are going to have to vote on this. And Republican senators got away with voting for a lot of people already that were not competent, were not qualified, did not have the experience, and or the character, I.E., Pete Hegseth, just to name one, and RFK just to name two. I could go on, but I know we have time constraints.
And so, I think Republican senators, there's going to be a time when they say we draw the line here. I don't know. I'm not going to hold my breath, but I'm going to hope that, giving senate confirmation to a U.S. Attorney who has sympathized with, a guy dressed like Hitler might be that line. I don't know.
PHILLIP: All right, everyone. Stay with us. Coming up next, we have more breaking news. Donald Trump has ordered a DOJ and Pentagon to determine if the U.S. military can be used to fight domestic crime. We'll tell you about that. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:44:18]
PHILLIP: Breaking tonight, President Trump and the White House are trying to take attention away from the economy with several immigration orders along with lawn ornaments showing mug shots. But there was something significant that no one -- that what -- that in that was in one of those executive orders that very few people clued in on that could open up a Pandora's box potentially.
Donald Trump has ordered his attorney general and defense secretary to figure out how the U.S. military can be used to fight domestic crime. Quote, "Within 90 days of this order, the Secretary of Defense in coordination with the attorney general shall determine how military and national security assets, training, non-lethal capabilities, and personnel can most effectively be utilized to prevent crime."
[22:45:04]
Now, using troops to help law enforcement typically requires an emergency declaration, but the power to make that declaration may be an open ended question as are many questions that are being raised today, Dave, by this administration. But I have to say this is another thing that Trump kind of promised. Like, he said he wanted to use the military domestically and a lot of people told me that he wasn't serious about it, but it sounds like he is.
AARONBERG: Yeah, you want to own the libs? Militarize the police. Because this is one of their slogans, demilitarize the police. This is something that he wants to have this fight on. This is his terrain, to be able to say we're going to make America safe again. We're going to back the blue. Even if it's not constitutional, this is the fight he wants to have. It sure beats having to fight about tariffs or the sinking stock market.
PHILLIP: I also wonder what --
KEVIN O'LEARY, "SHARK TANK" INVESTOR: National Guard.
PHILLIP: -- what he thinks voters are going to say.
O'LEARY: National Guard -- use the National Guard, same kind of mandate. So, it's an extension of that mandate. I think it'll be challenged constitutionally there's no question about it.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
PHILLIP: But I agree with you this is what he -- the amazing thing about all of these things is that's what he said during the election. He's just delivering on what he said and a lot of people don't like it now that it's actually happening and it will all -- it'll be challenged constitutionally. Everything -- the Supreme Court is busy.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
O'LEARY: I mean, it's busy.
PHILLIP: That's the understatement here.
O'LEARY: Gets pushed up. But remember, at least 52 percent of the population wanted this and they voted for it.
ALLISON: Yeah, but I think we sat up at these tables hours upon hours and --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP:
PHILLIP: And it's not 52 percent by the way, but just to be clear.
ALLISON: People would say, oh, he doesn't really mean this, or he did -- he only means violent, illegal immigrants, not -- but he meant all of them. And so, when we were asking and pressing for the details to finish the sentence on what he really meant to militarize, the National Guard is normally called in to cities and states when you are at a breaking point and local --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, there's no -- when there's an emergency.
ALLISON: Emergency. Yes. And when -- when local law enforcement actually can't meet support. This --this Trump party, because I don't even know if Republicans want to call it a Republican Party, is so different. Talk about federal overreach, like, bringing in the National Guard to run state and local police departments is -- feels like the anti-thesis of what the member of the party.
NAVARRO: No, they've also reached agreements with local police departments. We've -- we're seeing it in -- in Florida where last week, 10 days ago, the Florida Highway Patrol, acting as if they were ICE, detained a U.S. citizen from -- born in Cairo, Georgia with Mexican descent and held him for 30 hours on an immigration, I guess, suspicion.
And so, this is happening, certainly all over our state and in other states where we see police acting as ICE. And now, you know, the militarization of police, I think, is another added, layer. And look, I don't know. Maybe, maybe Pete Hegseth can --
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: People in San Francisco want some law and order after 2:00 in the morning downtown San Francisco. It's a lawless --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I think they absolutely -- I mean, Kevin, I think you're -- you're right that they do want that. There's obviously a question about whether the military is really the mechanism, but I actually --
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: Don't take anybody --
PHILLIP: I actually look at these executive orders in a in a bit of a different way. Because when you really read them, they're like, it's like a press release where they essentially kick the can down the road, and they're like, well, maybe we might do this down the road.
And it's not to say that we shouldn't pay attention to it because, you know, he's asserting that he has the power to do this, but it strikes me as, as an attempt to signal that he's doing something without actually doing something about the problem.
NAVARRO: Well, in this case, the executive order just said that they should study this and whether this is a tool that they could have in their toolbox should they need it. It wasn't even a promise to actually do it and surely, we should all want to be studying ways to make American communities safer.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me ask you. I mean, what do you think about the -- what do you think about this idea? Let -- let's say they study it. What do you think about the idea of actually U.S. troops in American cities conducting law enforcement actions?
UNGAR-SARGON: No, I --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: First of all, that would -- there are some serious constitutional issues, but --
(CROSSTALK)
UNGAR-SARGON: But this is obviously against the constitution, so I don't support anything that goes against the constitution. What I really like is that --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, why are you doing this?
UNGAR-SARGON: I have a president who is pushing the boundary to figure out how he can deliver to the boundaries that he made to --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Check the boundaries of the constitution?
(CROSSTALK)
UNGAR-SARGON: No, it's like we're going to the Supreme Court with suggestions. I mean, again, this one just said we should study whether or not this is possible. ALLISON: Let me actually tell you what has been studied. Donald Trump, last week, rescinded millions of dollars from cities and states for the gun violence prevention programs for Violence Against Women's Act, ripping cities and states from federal funding that has been studied already. That have --
[22:50:00]
UNGAR-SARGON: Do you think they're still working?
ALLSION: Actually --
UNGAR-SARGON: Because I don't think they were working.
ALLISON: -- actually, when you look at if you care about studies and read the studies, they are working. You see a decline where places, do they happen overnight? I mean last segment you were like, it's only four weeks. It takes time actually to end systemic problems.
So, don't tell me that you actually want to keep city safe by pushing the boundaries and defying the constitution to militarize law enforcement when the week before you strip cities and states from programs that actually kept communities safe. Is it perfect? No. But you can't have it both ways.
UNGAR-SARGON: If you talk to police officers, they feel that they have been neutered and they cannot --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: If you talk to police officers, they would be disappointed at these because most of these programs actually sit in police departments. It is taking funding away from local municipalities and law enforcement. If you actually ask them, that's what they would say.
PHILLIP: All right, we got to leave it there for that conversation. Up next, one 2028 candidate slams another as he calls for Democrats to rise up and make noise against Trump. We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK))
[22:55:47]
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D) SENATE MINORITY LEADER: It's going to hurt the kids at the universities who've had nothing to do with protesting but it's also going to hurt the kind of medical research and other kinds of great research that is done at Harvard and other universities. So, we sent him a very strong letter just the other day tell -- asking eight very strong questions about why this isn't just a pretext.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That was minority leader Chuck Schumer explaining how Democrats will fight Donald Trump's attack on Harvard. It's worth- noting, a very strongly worded letter is exactly what dying Jack promised to do in Titanic as he clung to the board in the middle of the ocean. A board that Rose definitely could have made room on, but that is beside the point. Schumer is being mocked for that, while other liberals are calling for more than just letters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D) ILLINOIS: Never before in my life have I called for mass protests, for mobilization, for disruption, but I am now. These Republicans cannot know a moment of peace. They have to understand that we will fight their cruelty with every megaphone and microphone that we have. We must castigate them on the soapbox and then punish them at the ballot box.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Ashley, is he right? Is he right that this is what is needed? No more playing nice, I guess.
ALLISON: I mean, I've never been in the play nice camp, so welcome to the club, you know? It's -- I think we've said this before that, the resistance of Trump 2.0 is going to look very different than -- I have not gone and marched in the street, but you can be sure that I don't do -- I do a lot of things to make sure that people know that the policies that Donald Trump is putting out is going to hurt black people, brown people, middle-class folks.
So, I --I agree with Pritzker that we need to be doing more. What I would encourage lawmakers that identify is -- or a part of the Democratic Party is to actually do some soul-searching. And the thing that makes them feel uncomfortable and they think, oh, that might be too risque, that might be, do it. Try it.
It is not the time to be -- to hedge bets. We have someone we just talked about who every day tested the bounds of the Constitution. There's a lot more you can do than send strong letters with strong questions.
PHILLIP: So, Dave --
NAVARRO: People are desperate for leadership. You know, whenever I'm out on the streets, people come up to me talking about how desperate they are to hear someone that's not afraid. Because you look around and law firms are capitulating, media is capitulating, business titans are capitulating. And so, I think what J.B. Pritzker is doing is something that the Democratic base is begging for.
Fearlessness, leadership and engaging them, energizing them. Stop the navel gazing. Stop the infighting. Stop the blame game of what could have been or should have been, and, you know, forge a path forward. Make people want to be part of the team instead of bitch about the team.
PHILLIP: Well, he also complained about Democrats thinking that we could reason or negotiate with a madman. He said that, Republicans who enable Trump feeling their bones, that when we survive this shameful episode of American history, their portraits will be relegated to the museum halls reserved for tyrants and traders. O'LEARY: Think about how lost Schumer is right now, making this
something he spends his political capital on, and I want full disclosure.
PHILLIP: Wait, what is this?
O'LEARY: Well, I'm talking about Harvard and fighting Harvard and full -- full you know, I want full disclosure here. I'm an executive fellow there. I teach entrepreneurship. I guarantee everybody at this table, Harvard will survive every administration for another two hundred years.
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, I don't know that -- that anybody's defending Schumer's --
O'LEARY: Well, it's part of the problem for the party.
PHILLIP: Dave, I'm curious because, I mean, there's -- what Pritzker is saying and then there's what someone like Gavin Newsom is doing, which is getting on a podcast with conservatives and trying to find common ground, which we don't disagree needs to happen, but some people, some Democrats do.
AARONBERG: This is a debate within the Democratic Party.
[23:00:00]
Do you take the Gavin Newsom approach, the Bill Maher approach about meeting with Trump? When Joe Scarborough goes to the White House, they get canceled by some parts of the Democratic Party, or do you take the Pritzker approach?
The thing that people want the most, though, I think right now in 2025 is authenticity. If you can fake that, you got it made, as it's been said. But Pritzker is a billionaire. Now, he's talking about fighting and being tough, and I don't know. I -- I think -- you have to feel it in your bones to be someone who wakes up every day and fights.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: I think --
PHILLIP: We have to leave there. Everyone, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
