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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Touts Power, Attacks Opponents At 100th Day Rally; Trump Doubles Down On Tariffs As Most Americans Blast Them; ABC News' Terry Moran Sits Down With President Trump In An Exclusive Interview; Former Advisor To Pete Hegseth Speaks Out In An Interview With Megyn Kelly; Governor Whitmer Welcomes Trump To Her State. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 29, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, 100 days, but a century's worth of headlines.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Our golden age has only just begun.
PHILLIP: Why the golden age struggles to find its shine?
Plus, the self-described most transparent White House in history doesn't want you to know how costly their tariffs are.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is a hostile and political act by Amazon.
PHILLIP: Also, as more Americans grow frustrated by the Trump sequel, is I told you so, the right tone for liberals?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But white people, you all really should be embarrassed by this.
PHILLIP: And Pete Hegseth brags about getting rid of a woke program, a program made by MAGA.
Live at the table. Van Jones, Stephen Moore, Ashley Allison, and Tara Palmeri.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Let's get right to what America's talking about, second verse, same as the first. Donald Trump spent his 100th night in office telling lies in front of a MAGA crowd, as the majority of Americans don't like what he's done, including upending the global economy.
Speaking of lies and false claims, CNN's Daniel Dale showcased 100 of them from the first 100 days, and here are just some of the topics, groceries, eggs, bacon, apples, gas, inflation, Biden, Harris, trade, trade deficits, trade revenue, tariff deals, Honda, the 1800s, tax cuts, Zelenskyy, the start of the war, the state of the war, the end of the war, Ukraine aid, Europe paid, pipelines, phone calls, citizenship, walls, completion of walls, migrants, caravans, border crossings, jails, psych wards, hostages, world peace, South Korea, Japan, China, the E.U., Canada, NATO, Germany, Iran, ISIS, the Taliban, the Panama Canal, banks, the ocean, wildfires, L.A., water in L.A., electric cars, coal, gold medalists, autism, fentanyl, education, the media, COVID, the 2020 election, votes, voting, mail-in voting, youth voting, Wisconsin voting, voter fraud, polls, crowd sizes. January 6th, the rioters, the investigation, the weapons, Nancy Pelosi, air traffic controllers, federal workers, Social Security, and condoms. We will spare you the illustration for that one.
But despite the polls showing historic lows for the president and his policies, he says Americans knew exactly what they were getting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are worried, even some people who voted for you saying, I didn't sign up for this. So, how do you answer those concerns?
TRUMP: Well, they did sign up for it, actually, and this is what I campaigned on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Concerning the tariffs, which economists say are going to raise prices, you said, quote, hang tough, it won't be easy. You said that to the American people. Is that what Americans should expect, some hard times?
TRUMP: I've said that in my campaign. Look, we won a campaign by a lot. We won all seven swing states. We won the popular vote by a lot. You know, we had a tremendous campaign. I said all these things during my campaign. I said, you're going to have a transition period. We've been ripped off by every country all over the world. They're laughing at us. They thought we were stupid people and we were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at the table is Kathryn Rooney Vera. She is the chief economist and chief market strategist for a financial services company, StoneX. Kathryn, we'll get to you in just a second, but, Van, he said Americans voted for this. I would only quibble by saying he didn't campaign on 145 percent tariffs on China. That's a fact.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No.
PHILLIP: And also I think he and his administration seem to be recognizing that maybe there's a problem here because they pulled back on the auto tariffs today.
JONES: Look, I think there's a little bit of a bait and switch here. He said, we're going to have immediate relief. We're going to have peace and prosperity on day one. I mean, he made a bunch of promises. Now, he's switched and he says, well, it's going to be short-term pain, which he didn't mention at all, for long-term gain. But the long-term gain imagines that by having all these tariffs, we're going to have all this on-shoring at some point.
[22:05:02]
When you talk to people who know anything about it say it's going to take five years. And when it comes, it's going to be American robots getting jobs because it's going to be advanced manufacturing.
And so I don't think much of what he is doing is what he promised he would do. And surprise, surprise, Donald Trump sometimes doesn't tell the truth.
PHILLIP: And, Kathryn, I imagine nobody is more disappointed than a lot of the folks on Wall Street and in the business community who they were optimistic about what Trump would do, and now they're facing uncertainty.
KATHRYN ROONEY VERA, CHIEF ECONOMIST, STONEX: Well, there is a lot of uncertainty, and uncertainty is what kills a sentiment and the market. So, yes, there is a lot of fear with regard to the economic impact that tariffs could have. Certainly, they're inflationary, especially when you're looking at 145. I doubt it's going to end at 145.
It's probably going to be markedly lower. But, irrefutably, tariffs are part of not just a negotiation tactic, but a fundamental change, once in a generation, I would argue, in the global economic regime and structure. We're moving away from globalization towards de- globalization, which is inherently inflationary but it's also a re- jigging of the economic structure.
I think anyone would agree that there have been massive imbalances leading up to 2025, both on the trade front, the fiscal front. And I think what this administration is attempting to do and what the markets are skittish about is to re-jig those imbalances to come out stronger on the outset.
So, yes, I do think there's short term pain. I do think there's a good risk of recession in the near term.
PHILLIP: Let me play a little bit more of what Trump said in this interview because he was asked about prices going up. You said this is -- a lot of it is inherently inflationary. Here's what he said in response to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Nothing's going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, business, I want ask you, I want to ask.
TRUMP: I do know business, and --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. So, 145 percent tariffs on China, and that is --
TRUMP: That's good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- basically an embargo.
TRUMP: They deserve it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It'll raise prices on everything, from electronics to clothing, to building houses.
TRUMP: You don't know that. You don't know whether or not China's going to eat it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's mathematics.
TRUMP: China probably will eat those tariffs. But at 145, they basically can't do much business with the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, as he was told in that interview, some people have called it essentially an embargo on China.
You know, I mean, he's not wrong that I think in the first term, the much smaller tariffs on China were not entirely passed on to consumers. A lot of it was, but not all of it. But 145 percent, do you think China's going to just eat that?
STEPHEN MOORE, FORMER TRUMP ECONOMICS ADVISER: Well, first of all, I do think -- and, by the way, I'm not a big tariff guy myself. I'm a Trump guy, but I'm not I'm not a big fan of tariffs, but I disagree with you a little bit. I mean, look, Trump did say throughout the campaign, tariff is my favorite word. So --
PHILLIP: He did say that.
MOORE: -- it now is an integration (ph), he likes tariff policies. And so I don't think people should be surprised. I mean, Trump is -- I do think he's doing exactly what he said he would do when it came to getting the border under control, which I think was one of his biggest victories clearly in the first 100 days.
On the tariff thing, it is true, but the one thing that almost all Americans agree with Trump on though is China. Whether you're liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republicans, in this very polarized country, the one thing that everybody agrees on, China's the villain.
They have taken advantage of us. And getting tough on China, my only complaint with what he is done so far is that I wouldn't have picked a fight with everybody at once. I would've gone right after China. And I think the goal is to isolate China. And if you can do that and get trade deals, I think it'll turn out okay. That's a big if.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I think there's lot agreement on that.
JONES: When you're putting tariffs on penguins, you might have lost the plot. I mean, he literally put tariffs on countries that don't even have people.
PHILLIP: And, politically, I mean, that's exactly really to the point, right? Like he could have had like a lot of political support going after China, and he decided to go after everybody at the same time. And the result is a disapproval rating of 59 percent for this president at this stage. When you ask voters how they think his policies are going to affect the economy, 53 percent say it's going to hurt the economy. 60 percent say his policies will hurt U.S.'s standing in the world. 59 percent say it'll hurt their personal finances. That is a resounding indictment on this policy.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think there's still an opportunity to turn this thing around. I mean, I understand why the market is a bit skittish. The marketplace and wealthy individuals have benefited to the deficit of the American people. They benefit from free trade. They benefit from these various imbalances that we have, particularly with China.
So, I'm not surprised in restructuring this order. It is not going to be an easy thing. I mean, Van, you talked about how people are in this sort of economic deficit financially in this level of uncertainty. There've been three decades of financial uncertainty. There've been three decades of people wondering when they're going to get an opportunity economically to survive.
[22:10:04]
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Including the first four years of Trump.
SINGLETON: And we have not seen that.
PHILLIP: That's a good question, Shermichael.
SINGLETON: And so trying to restructure those things, to me, I think, is absolutely fundamentally important.
PHILLIP: Because Trump has set up the same -- in the same breath that Trump has decried the trade imbalances, and I think that there's obviously a good argument about that. He's also said that the four years he was president were the best ever and that Americans were doing extremely well. And you know what? Americans were doing extremely well.
So, I mean, I think that there's a disconnect here. I mean, we can make broad statements about how trade has affected the United States, but there's no question that the U.S. has fared extremely well, even while some sectors have been hurt by some aspect of trade and even more saliently, prices, okay? Let's talk about prices for a second. Because the thing that Trump really won on was lowering prices. And I think there's still no word on when that's coming.
ALLISON: I literally have sat at this table so many times and just waited for somebody with real expertise in economics to just say, short-term pain and it will get better. I really thought you were going to say that tonight and you didn't because the reality is we don't actually know if it's going to get better.
PHILLIP: It could.
ALLISON: It could.
PHILLIP: But it may not.
ALLISON: But it may not. And right now, we also, Shermichael, we sat at this table, and you said over and over again that the people are saying they don't feel the relief, the people are saying that they don't, they aren't experiencing in relief, and the reality is that they really weren't before November 5th, and we lost the election because of that. The people right now are saying that they don't think what Donald Trump doing is working for them, and they are scared and they are nervous.
Now, you're right. He did say tariff, tariff, tariff, tariff, tariff. He didn't say he was going to disrupt the whole global economy in doing the tariffs. We can agree on the targeted attack. It is just the reckless hammer that they have taken to the federal government, to the economy, to people's lives. That just goes --
PHILLIP: Kathryn --
MOORE: Let me just respond to that real quickly.
PHILLIP: Yes.
MOORE: Look, I respect all your opinion. And what Trump is basically saying, I want to let you know kind of the strategy, which is he wants to increase the tax on things that are produced in China and other countries, and he wants to reduce the tax on things that are made in Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania and Maine and California. What's wrong with that?
JONES: Well, I think --
PHILLIP: Well, I think --
(CROSSTALKS)
MOORE: That would create jobs in America. And I'm a free trade guy.
PHILLIP: Well, let me ask you. I mean, I know that you are. The only problem is that there are a lot of things that are not made in Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania that Americans want and need. And at the end of the day, there has to be some rationality about where do we get things from that we do not make or cannot make. And I'm not sure that's fit into the picture of tariffs. Kathryn, I wanted to give you another word of this.
VERA: But you make a very good point, Abby, and I'll add to that, which is, if this is successful, which it can be. You know, it's very binary. This could be an atrocity where it fails miserably and there's a run on the risk-free asset, which is the U.S. Treasury. That could be a very real possibility, especially if we blow out the fiscal deficit with tax cuts, but without a company spending cuts.
But it could go very right as well, because, you know, we're not at the end of this. India's probably going to be the first trade accord that we agree to. Japan's going to be next. There's inevitably going to be some, at least cosmetic bridge with China before we get an ultimate accord there. But I think what the administration's attempting to do is to reduce dependency on external sources, such that we saw in COVID, where we became so vulnerable to imports from overseas and really rebuild what I think Bessent said today, which was precision manufacturing.
We're not trying to make widgets again in Ohio but we are trying to improve the lot of the average American. And then, of course, we have the issue of national security. So, this is not just an economic tool. This is now a national security tool. And I think, more broadly --
ALLISON: So, what are we going to make in Ohio?
PHILLIP: Hold on.
ALLISON: What would we make in Ohio then if we're not going to make the widgets? And what are the working class people trained to actually do in Ohio to catch up, to Van's point, where the robots are actually going to take the job? I think that's the gap where it doesn't feel like this administration is actually, as an Ohioan, delivering for those people.
PHILLIP: Okay. Van?
JONES: And I think a lot of what you say I agree with in part because that's what Biden was doing. When you talk about, you know, the CHIPS Act, when you talk about a lot of the investment. So, there is a consensus that we want to have less dependence on China, in general. We definitely want to build more stuff that we need here.
But there's a smart way and a dumb way to do anything. A tariff a day keeps prosperity away. I don't understand all the craziness, the back and the forth, and then somebody gives you a phone call, you change your whole thing the next day. That is not the right way to run a bodega, let alone the only hyper power left in the world.
SINGLETON: You know what, Abby, you asked when you were asking Ashley and I a question, you framed it around the politics of this. Sure, the president's numbers have decreased. I'm sure the president is aware of that and sure are his advisers.
[22:15:01]
But when you also look at that, those same polling data and you go underneath and you ask, when you look up the voters' responses, whereas as it pertains to Democrats, there wasn't significant confidence that Democrats somehow had a magical answer to improve --
(CROSSTALKS)
SINGLETON: And so I wanted throw that out there. I just wanted to throw that out there.
PHILLIP: Since you brought it up, Shermichael, we will in fact be talking about that. And you're right. Just because voters are unhappy with what Trump's doing, it doesn't mean that they're happy with the other party. But I don't know that that actually helps Republicans in this particular moment. But we have more on that topic as we continue on with the show.
Kathryn Rooney Vera, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else stick around for us.
Coming up next, Amazon considered listing out tariff costs on products, which, quote, pissed off Trump, then came a phone call.
Plus, Pete Hegseth brags about getting rid of a woke Biden program, except that that program is Donald Trump's program. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, peace for now between President Trump and Amazon's Jeff Bezos after reports suggested that the retail giant was going to start highlighting just how much tariffs are impacting consumers. The plan reportedly would have been to display the additional cost for certain items on its website, but that didn't sit well with the president. He was pissed, according to his CNN source and the White House took aim.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: This is a hostile and political act by Amazon. Why didn't Amazon do this when the Biden administration hiked inflation to the highest level in 40 years?
It's not a surprise because, as Reuters recently wrote, Amazon has partnered with a Chinese propaganda arm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Trump later called Bezos to complain about Amazon's proposal, and Bezos backed down. It's odd how angry the White House got over this showing this data, considering their claim of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: We have the most transparent administration in history.
TRUMP: So, we want to be transparent.
LEAVITT: This is the most transparent and accessible president we have ever had.
TRUMP: We're doing them in full transparency here.
LEAVITT: President Trump is the most transparent president in history.
ELON MUSK, TRUMP SENIOR ADVISER: So, it's extreme transparency.
LEAVITT: To the most transparent and accessible president in American history.
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF ON POLICY: Transparency begins with having an accounting of where every federal dollar is spent.
LEAVITT: The Trump administration has already proven to be the most transparent ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Tara Palmeri is at the table now. But, Shermichael, why don't they want people to know what the tariffs are costing?
SINGLETON: I just don't understand why Amazon feels the need to do this. When companies hike up prices on goods every single freaking day, and they don't advertise, we're increasing the price by $0.50 or $1 or $2 or $5, this does seem political to me. And if I were the president, I would've been pissed off too. Why are you doing this?
PHILLIP: Well, there's supply and demand.
SINGLETON: There's no onus for you to have to do this.
PHILLIP: There's supply and demand, which pushes prices up and down.
JONES: It's government policy.
PHILLIP: And then there's government policy, which puts a tax on goods. I mean, I think that's the difference, because I actually buy on Amazon all the time.
SINGLETON: I do too. And I see exactly what the taxes are. You know, when I lived in D.C. --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: So, why can't companies be transparent about the taxes that are going not to them but to the government?
SINGLETON: We're talking about Amazon. And the cost of goods, I don't know, six years ago were cheaper than they were --
PHILLIP: Yes, supply --
SINGLETON: -- five years
PHILLIP: -- and demand.
SINGLETON: Did they show that throughout the duration of the previous administration? And if they didn't, why do it now? At least have some consistency. JONES: Shermichael, you sound silly.
SINGLETON: They can, but, I mean, that's not a good enough explanation.
JONES: Hold on a second, Shermichael. Listen, I usually appreciate your point of view, but --
SINGLETON: You don't appreciate this one, Van?
JONES: No, because it doesn't make sense. Look, when prices go up, that's reflected in the price. But if the government does an extreme policy, like 10 percent, 100 percent, that is a difference of -- that's not a normal thing. And so I don't think it's bad. But I go on Amazon, they tell me everything. They tell me how much it costs before, my lower discount I get, because I was not -- I get all kind of information.
Now, why would you be afraid of information? Why would the President of the United States be so afraid of -- hold on a second -- that he would call a private business? You are a business person. The president of the United States supposed to call you and tell you what you can put on your website? That's not your politics.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Your point about the role of the government in dictating business practices. I mean, I know that you're not -- you know, putting this, putting tariffs aside for just a second. The conduct of this administration to basically say to companies, like Amazon and many others, essentially pay to play. Come on in, give us $40 million from Melania, make sure you listen to what I have to say. That is a very different type of capitalism than I thought conservatives were interested in.
MOORE: So, I don't like pay to play. I don't think corporations should be coming to Washington. That's why I want limited government. But on this issue, this is an interesting, the Amazon issue, because, you know, prices went up a lot when Joe Biden was president. I mean, average things cost 25 percent more when he left office and he did. And we didn't have a lot of you know, exactly complaints when those prices went up.
[22:25:00]
Now, Amazon is being criticized for this.
I actually do believe that taxes should be -- I'm sort of on Amazon's side on this. Tariff is a tax and that -- why not put that, you know, price of the tariff --
TARA PALMERI, HOST, THE TARA PALMERI SHOW: Yes, make an additional like state tax, federal tax, a tariff tax.
MOORE: Right, exactly. I mean, I think taxes should be posted. PHILLIP: Just for the sake of clarity because you're -- it's not in response to what you said, but Amazon said they're not doing it. So, we're talking about the reporting as it was and what the White House was responding to. They're saying --
(CROSSTALKS)
SINGLETON: I have one more point. I didn't say it. Part of the concern, I would assume -- I haven't talked to the president, I don't know, but I guess the part of the concern is you don't want corporations scaring the heck out of Americans out there. And Amazon is essentially acting as a bad actor. Van, they're acting as a bad actor.
JONES: No, they're acting as a good actor. And, by the way, you should be happy because who are they putting the tariffs on? Chinese stuff. So, that would be a signal to the consumer -- hold on a second. Hold on a second.
MOORE: We just had an inflation report that came out last week and we still have very low inflation. So, even with the tariffs --
ALLISON: We said that a lot during Joe Biden too. And that didn't pass the buck. I actually think people did complain about Joe Biden.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: There's a delay in the impact of the tariffs being --
MOORE: There it is. There it is. That's truth. I'm just saying we have very low inflation, according to the --
PHILLIP: But especially because there are goods that are being brought that were brought in ahead of tariffs to keep prices lower for longer. So, that is also happening.
ALLISON: Okay. Van, you worked in the White House. I worked in the White House. When someone does something that you don't like in the White House, you have staff like we did and we would call them and be like, can we work something out? So, I actually think what this administration did is probably no different than what any administration does.
I will say, though, to your point about people weren't complaining about Joe Biden and inflation. Yes, that's why Democrats lost, like the American people complained. So, I would say that like there was a consequence for Joe Biden's inflation, right? That's why we're dealing with this conversation right now.
MOORE: That's true.
ALLISON: I will also just say Amazon is not the only company doing it. I'm actually not going to say the companies, because I actually don't want Trump to go after them because there are many companies that I shop with. But I will say they are companies where lower income, people who do
not buy at high end designer stores for their clothes and their bags and their shoes are placing how much the tariffs are, because people -- see you, spilled the T -- because people are wondering why prices are going up. People were mad when the supply chain was slower because of COVID. So, Amazon is not the only one.
I think just one thing, I think the reason why Trump is so mad at Jeff Bezos is because he came to his inauguration and he doesn't like when people turn their backs on him. He's like, fall in line or catch my wrath.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, Tara, I want you to weigh in here because she just mentioned the supply chains. The New York Times had a story about Christmas, okay? Yes, Christmas. It's about to be May. We have a frozen supply chain that is putting Christmas at risk, says the chief executive --
MOORE: In April?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: If we don't start production soon, there is a high probability of a toy shortage this holiday season, okay? It's about to get real and it's May. Christmas is at stake, it sounds like.
PALMERI: Yes. People don't think about supply chain and how long it takes to actually import, create things, export. I mean, we just think, oh, yes, we got it. We go to the store, we get the toy, and there it is. It took probably a full year to get it on the shelf exactly where it is.
And, yes, I just had Mark Cuban on my show who said the same thing. Trump is going to be the Grinch this Christmas. Prices are going to go up. People are going to freak out. Gen Zs going to get angry about that brand that you mentioned because that's where --
ALLISON: I didn't say it. He said it.
PALMERI: Yes, that brand that he mentions and, you know, all of his big wins with that generation. And low income people are going to be furious because those are the people that are really hurt by this.
MOORE: Except the one thing you guys are missing is that everything you're saying is true except for the fact that the world changes if Trump can actually get these trade deals done. And, you know --
PALMERI: And does he do it in 90 days? Does he do it in time for Christmas?
MOORE: Yes. I mean, look, he's already working on, you know, India. He is working on China. He is working on Japan. I mean, so, yes. And as soon as that happens, you know, have me back in six months. Because I'll bet you six months from now, when this is behind us, we won't be talking about higher prices because the tariffs are going to be coming down. PALMERI: But will we have one bad Christmas though? Like will they make it for Christmas?
MOORE: Yes. Christmas is eight months away.
PHILLIP: Time is of the essence, not only because of what's on the shelves and what's not, but because that the people holding onto their capital, not making decisions, not spending, maybe cutting jobs in anticipation of a downturn, that can hit this summer.
SINGLETON: No, it can. And I think the administration is cognizant of that, which is why they're trying to quickly move forward with as many deals as possible.
I think a lot of this is predicated upon the idea that we're going to still have tariff conflicts by October, by November. I just don't believe that's the case.
[22:30:00]
PHILLIP: I think the one big tariff conflict that matters is China, and there's been no evidence, none, actually, that there -- that there's anything happening on that front, which is, you know, that's the ballgame, essentially.
(CROSSTALK)
STEVE MOORE, FORMER TRUMP ECONOMICS ADVISER: Willing to pay a little bit more, for things and decouple from China.
PHILLIP: I think a 45 percent is not a little bit more.
UNKNOWN: Yeah, okay.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Coming up next, we can battle defense secretary access a program he calls "woke". The problem is that program was actually signed into law by Donald Trump. Plus, liberals, they are furious with Gretchen Whitmer after the Michigan governor is once again seen alongside Donald Trump.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:15]
PHILLIP: Tonight, think what's before you tweet? Well, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth bragged about eliminating another, quote, "Woke Biden initiative over at the Pentagon." The only problem is that that woke program is actually Donald Trump's. The Women, Peace and Security Act aimed to advance women's participation in the military, something championed by Ivanka Trump and cabinet members.
Now, this is hardly Pete Hegseth's only headline from the past couple of weeks. More fallout from Signal gate, more firings and resignations around him, some of whom say he's just not up for the job. Questions over his wife's presence at the Pentagon, a $60 million fighter jet falling overboard into the sea as a carrier avoided a Houthi attack. And Donald Trump revealing that he had a talk with Hegseth, and he stood by him in a new interview tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I had a talk with him, and whatever I said, I probably wouldn't be inclined to tell you. But we had a good talk. He's a talented guy. He's young, smart, highly educated, and I think he's going to be a very good defense -- hopefully, a great defense secretary, but he'll be a very good defense secretary.
TERRY MORAN, ABC NEWS SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You have 100 percent confidence in Pete Hegseth?
TRUMP: I don't have 100 percent confidence in anything, okay? Anything. Do I have 100 percent? It's a stupid question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That is not quite the real endorsement that I think Pete might have.
(CROSSTALK)
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The key -- the key tell is he will be a good.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
JONES: He will be a good -- in other words, right now, he is not. He is not, right? Right now, he's sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He got called to the Principal's Office.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: But if -- when you say, hey, Abby, you will be a great host.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: That's a (inaudible) compliment.
PHILLIP: And Tara, I mean, obviously, Trump doesn't want to give anybody, a win, a scalp here.
TARA PALMERI, AUTHOR, "THE RED LETTER" ON SUBSTACK: No, there's a no scalp policy.
PHILLIP: There's a no scalp policy but at the same time, it seems like a pretty overwhelming view that at the very least, Pete Hegseth is in over his head at the moment. PALMERI: Yeah, his tenure, his very short 100-day or less tenure at the Pentagon has been a complete mess and failure. And the party MAGA base, they're holding on to him like a figurehead, and Trump sees him as someone that represents more than just a staffer that can be replaced.
And that's why he's reluctant to give him up, the political capital, the millions and millions of dollars that they used to get him confirmed. But I think every single day, he's really questioning his decision, but Trump thinks that it reflects poorly on him to remove Hegseth.
But it's -- it's clear that he's in way over his head. He had nothing in his resume before this that set him up for this role. In fact, all of the positions he had before, including at those non-profits, those veteran non-profits that he ran the ground, show that a man that cannot run an organization and certainly not one as large as the Pentagon.
PHILLIP: So, let me just play what one of Hegseth's former aids. He was - this person was fired but spoke to Megyn Kelly about what's been going on over at the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, "THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW" HOST: Do you think he's okay? You know, do you think Pete is okay?
COLIN CARROLL, FORMER ADVISER TO PETE HEGSETH: Yeah, I honestly, I don't know. I'm not sure. Like, if you look at a pie chart of -- of the secretary's day, at this point, 50 percent of it is probably leak investigation press, like it's that, like that can't be. That is a bad thing for America. It's a bad thing for the president's objectives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PALMERI: He's a MAGA influencer.
PHILLIP: Well, listen, the United States, the global superpower that we are here, has a lot of challenges. The idea that the defense secretary is spending half of his day on his own image, on press, on alleged leaked investigations. I mean, to this guy he -- he said that's completely unsustainable and it seems on its face to be unsustainable.
SINGLETON: Well, look, Abby, I think the president's resolve at least at this point in time is pretty clear. He wants Pete Hegseth to stay in the position and it is because of what Tara just stated. They spent a ton of political capital trying to get him confirmed
I mean, there -- there were reports at the time that the president was worried that maybe he could not be confirmed or maybe he needed to consider someone else, and, ultimately, he got the votes. And so, I think if you're President Trump, you're looking at the media optics of this. You're looking at what Democrats are saying. You're not trying to give -- (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What about the national security -- what about the national security of the United States?
JONES: You know what I'll be looking at it for our President of the United States? I'll be looking at North Korea.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
JONES: I'd be looking at Iran. I'd be looking at China.
UNKNOWN: You don't think you're looking at --
JONES: No, what I'm saying is, you're talking about -- the President's concerned about optics and losing face and I'm concerned about Americans losing lives and liberties because we don't have our eye on the ball. And one of the great things about you as a -- as an as executive, I know you very well, you have no problem firing people when they don't do a good job.
SINGLETON: I know. Just did.
JONES: You did. You just did.
[22:40:00]
SINGLETON: Yeah.
JONES: So --
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, would you advise Donald Trump, if you were one of his senior advisors, to cut ties with Hegseth right now?
SINGLETON: I would advise -- I would advise the president to prioritize people who are operationally sound.
ALLISON: So, you would. So, that's --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Let me -- let me be your translator. Let me be your table translator. And so, Shermichael will tell him to fire him.
SINGLETON: That's not what I said. I just said operationally sound.
PHILLIP: Shermichael, try that one again. Tell Trump to --
SINGLETON: What I would tell the President to have people running a large organization such as the Pentagon who are operationally sound, meaning they can manage large organizations.
ALLISON: And accidentally sending war plans on a Signal of that operation.
(CROSSTALK)
SINGLETON: So, so, okay, but wait a minute here. So -- so Van mentioned, you know, he cares about our troops being safe, and I don't want to sort of relitigate the past here.
ALLISON: Then don't. Answer the question.
SINGLETON: But I'm - no, but I'm going to because this is really important, guys. We -- we talk about the safety of our troops and -- and the importance of national security. I am going to talk about that.
JONES: Oh my God.
SINGLETON: I am going to talk about that. And I'm going to talk about 13 troops that were killed.
UNKNOWN: Yeah, I know.
SINGLETON: And if you understand, and so if you're going to compare --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, listen, Shermichael, I -- I --
SINGLETON: If we're going to be clear --
PHILLIP: Your point -- your point is taken.
SINGLETON: Taken care of our troops.
PHILLIP: Troops were killed in Afghanistan when President Trump was president, as well. You - you know that, right?
SINGLETON: I'm aware of that, Abby.
PHILLIP: So, the idea that troops are killed under a president is awful. We don't want that to ever happen. But at the same time --
ALLISON: They need somebody operationally sound at the head.
PHILLIP: But at the same time -- at the same time, everybody around this guy is saying, he doesn't have the knowledge of the skill, and I --
SINGLETON: The president has to make that decision.
PHILLIP: I get -- I get that part, but -- but you are sitting at this table, not that I would ask the president if he were here. I'm asking you, if you are comfortable with somebody who clearly lacks the skills, lacks the knowledge, is focused on his image, is focused on the -- the cut of the uniforms that troops are wearing and not the strategy to combat China. Is that -- are you -- are you happy with that? Are you -- you feel like that that's a sustainable thing?
SINGLETON: What I'm comfortable with is respecting that every executive of this country in the past and certainly in the future ultimately has to be the final arbiter on the individuals that they nominate to be a part of their cabinet.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah.
JONES: Clip this segment.
UNKNOWN: In a few days?
JONES: No, no.
SINGLETON: But he's not going to fire him in a few days.
JONES: No, I don't care about this, too, getting part -- clip this segment. If something really bad happens on the watch of Donald Trump in the national security domain and Hegseth doesn't do a great job, this is going to stop being funny.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
JONES: This is going to become very, very serious.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Yeah, sure. Exactly. Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: You guys keep raising that because --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: No, hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
SINGLETON: Should have been fired.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: So, so it shouldn't --
JONES: Yes. No, no. It was -- it was a grossing call. It was extremely grossing confidence and it's one of the reasons that we lost. But my point is we should be learning as a country.
UNKNOWN: That's right.
JONES: And -- and you're in a position that somebody who's respected by this president to point out this is not anything to play with. And -- and so clip this segment and if something bad happens, we're going to play it again. I think the -- the -- missing the opportunity to tell this president enough is enough with playing with our national security, this is the time to do it, now before it's too late. SINGLETON: But -- but Van, to be clear, you're not saying you want
something bad.
ALLISON: No.
JONES: Not at all. Not at all.
ALLISON: Not at all.
JONES: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: Coming up next for us for the second time in a month, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer has appeared with Donald Trump and some liberals are not happy with it. We'll debate. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:48:06]
PHILLIP: Tonight, toeing the line. Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer welcomed Trump to her state tonight, and he tried to do the delicate -- she tried to do the delicate tight rope walk between serving her constituents and alienating her party. Whitmer has been lobbying Trump for a way to stop an air national guard base from closing. And today, the pair announced a new fighter jet mission would do just that. But some are calling her out for cozying up to Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And, you know, I'm not supposed to do that. She's a Democrat. She's done a -- a very good job, frankly, and she's, she was very much involved with -- with the Republicans. They worked together on saving it, and it was not easy. So, I want to thank you very much, Gretchen. Good job. Thank you.
GRETCHEN WHITMER, GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN: It's crucial for the Michigan economy. It's crucial for the men and women here, for our homeland security, and our future. So, thank you. I'm so -- so grateful that this announcement was made today, and I appreciate all the work. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: All right. I -- I'm just going to read this tweet real quick from, Mehdi Hassan. I think it kind of summarizes where some liberals are on this. Far right extremists tried to kidnap Whitmer. Trump himself later suggested it was a fake plot and mocked it. He called that her -- that woman in Michigan and let a crowd chant of "lock her up". Today, Whitmer hugged him on the tarmac. This is why Dems lose.
JONES: Totally disagree and I'll tell you why. I love that brother. He's never served in office. He's never taken the oath. He's never had any responsibility for a city, a county, or let alone a state. When you are the chief executive of a state, you have a responsibility to those people, and you will work with or against anybody to make sure that they -- that -- that those people have jobs and -- and are protected. And that is the job.
Now, if -- if everything has to go through the lens of what does something look like, we worry on our party too much about image over impact, outrage over outcome, rhetoric over results.
[22:50:04]
I-- she is the governor of that state before she is somebody who's, Denise, a Curry favor with, social media influencers.
MOORE: I'd like to see more of this kind of thing. I mean, look. Trump's only been in office for three months -- three and a half months. We can't have arm to arm combat between the two parties. These kinds of things I think are -- are good. You know, this was a very, you know, pro-Michigan bank.
SINGLETON: She's not endorsing his policy. She's not -- she's not saying a lot of people. She's -- she's literally doing her job as a governor. And people -- and people who've never served in government who -- who dunk on people --
PHILLIP: When it's all about sort of the package, the political back and forth, it can be easy to say that. But, Tara, why is Trump so interested in bringing her into the fold?
PALMERI: Yeah, see, I have a theory about Trump. I think that he's actually very interested in a little bit threatened by Gretchen Whitmer, and he sees her as someone that he'd like to bring close to him because he knows it could hurt her political future.
He was always fascinated with Gavin Newsom. He probably sees her star rising, as well. I mean, that picture of her with the folder over her head, that will come back to haunt her in the same way that there are pictures in the past that politicians have to deal with. And so, the more he hugs her close, he knows it weakens her within the party. He is being strategic. Trump doesn't show up.
PHILLIP: She's being strategic.
PALMERI: She is. She's doing, as fans said, she's doing the right thing for her -- for her.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, she's constituent service. Constituent service.
ALLISON: Yeah, I'm not going to take Trump's bait on this. She can do whatever she wants, whether I like it or not. And, in four years, if she runs for the Democratic primary, I get to express my concern then.
SINGLETON: She's the governor of the state. I mean, I don't understand what's wrong with some of these people on social media and their ignorance about what it means to actually lead. But it's damn difficult job.
ALLISON: It is. SINGLETON: She has to serve her constituents. And - and even if she
has whatever disagreements philosophically or policy wise with Trump, she has to deliver results.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: It's kind of like -- it's kind of like when like when Mitch McConnell showed up in Kentucky for that bridge opening with Joe Biden.
SINGLETON: Exactly. And people were like, what are you doing?
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: But I -- I do -- I've really been wrestling with this. I am a I would not work with Donald Trump type of girl. But I'm not running for office either. I think what is so hard is you can keep a school open, a business open, but at the same time while you keep that school open, in many instances, you undermine the humanity of people who go into that school.
That is where a lot of people are drawing the line. And so, there is something about serving as a public official when you -- you come to this job. But I think the extremist of Trump is what makes it. So, I don't actually compare Mitch McConnell and Trump.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: Well, as in the United States, we should, you know, I -- I was always respectful of Barack Obama or to -- to Joe Biden even though I didn't necessarily like their policies. It's not campaign season.
ALLISON: But he wasn't. Trump wasn't respectful to Barack Obama or Joe Biden or to Kamala Harris or to black people or to queer people or to immigrants or to -- and so, that is the thing. You were, but he wasn't. So, we want more from him as our leader so that we feel more comfortable with our democratic --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We have to leave it there, guys.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: -- about how you don't like Donald Trump. But -- but for elected leaders not to get together with them, especially when he's only been a month in office for three months, I think is really ridiculous.
PHILLIP: All right, everyone. That's all for that conversation, Tara Palmeri, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, don't go anywhere. Up next, the panel is going to give us their nightcaps. They're going to tell us what epic fight they'd want to see inspired by a viral debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [22:58:11]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap epic match -- match up edition. It's all the internet is talking about. Who would win in a fight? A hundred men or a silverback gorilla? Well, you each have 30 seconds to tell us what epic match up would you want to see. Shermichael, your own words.
SINGLETON: So, this isn't like really fun, but I'm thinking crypto versus banks and new money versus old money, financial innovation versus financial stagnation.
JONES: Yes.
SINGLETON: Crypto is really going to be the future, and if you're a younger person, you have a significant opportunity to potentially build wealth that can be generational changing.
PHILIP: All right.
ALLISON: Okay, I wasn't sure what to do. First, I was going to do Biggie versus Pac. I was going to do Kendrick versus Drake. I was going to do Strawberry Shortcake versus Rainbow Brite. But here's where I landed. Last night was opening night of Cowboy Carter versus the Renaissance tour. I hear the verdict is out and the people -- the streets are talking, report back in a month.
PHILLIP: Wait, wait. Which one is --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I didn't know, which is my way of being like, I need to get to the Cowboy Carter so I can count my verdict.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Can't believe he's hanging like that. Okay, Van?
JONES: I would -- I would like to see an actual showdown between George Washington and Donald Trump. That would be my -- the ultimate thing. Well, I -- I think that well, first of all, Donald Trump is --
PHILLIP: Is this a physical showdown?
JONES: No, intellectually, I would like for George Washington to explain to Donald Trump that the president is not a king and you cannot tell a lie.
PHILLIP: Well, that would be interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right.
SINGLETON: Well, I'm just asking. I have to run. I'd have to run.
PHILLIP: Steve --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: The matchup I've always wanted to see is-- I'm from Chicago, I believe the Chicago Bears of 1985 were the greatest football team ever, but people from Miami say it was the Miami Dolphins that went undefeated in 1972. I want to see the Bears whip the Dolphins.
JONES: Oh.
MOORE: And have the claim as the greatest pro football team ever.
[23:00:00]
JONES: I'm glad that Ana Navarro is not here because you would get whipped.
PHILLIP: That's probably true.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: A hundred of you guys versus Ana Navarro. All right, everybody, thank you very much and thank you for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media - X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
