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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
U.S. Celebrates, Debates Selection of First American Pope; Bloomberg Reports, Trump Seeks Tax Hike on Wealthy Earning $2.5 Million-Plus; Trump Announces U.K. Trade Deal, But 10 Percent Tariff Remains. Trump Taps Fox Host Jeanine Pirro To Be A U.S. Attorney In Washington, D.C.; Former President Biden Joins "The View". Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired May 08, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, holy smoke, a Vatican stunner. The first American pope inherits a world skeptical of America and a legacy skeptical of MAGA.
Plus, tax the rich liberals have been chanting it for years, and now Donald Trump may agree they're on the money.
Also, after a U.S. Attorney nominee fail, the president heads to the Fox News green room again for someone who helped spread his lies.
JEANINE PIRRO, FOX NEWS HOST: Evidence of illegals voting, dead people voting, boxes being pulled out.
PHILLIP: And Joe Biden's citizen tour begins by blaming racism and sexism for their loss, and slamming his successor.
JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: He's had the worst 100 days any president's ever had.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Bakari Sellers, Ben Ferguson and Ana Navarro.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, really, the whole world is talking about, history. By now, you've heard about the first American pope, Leo XIV, and by now, so has the world of MAGA. Despite the pope's track record of being a moderate, many high profile conservative voices are slamming the selection tonight. Some of the highlights, he's a Marxist, puppet, a woke liberal, a globalist, an anti-Trump, anti-MAGA, anchor baby, pro-gun control, a Pope Francis plant, chosen to be a foil to Trump's border crackdown. And part of the reason for this backlash is that it appears that the new pope's X account criticized Trump, Vance and their immigration policies over the last decade.
Now, it's also worth noting Leo has a history of traditional Catholic views on abortion, same-sex marriage, and gender. But so far, it is all positive vibes, at least from President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: What greater honor could there be that we were a little bit surprised, very happy. It was just a great, absolutely great honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat is CNN Religion Contributor Father Edward Beck. He actually studied at Catholic Theological Union with the new pope. So you know him. I don't want to say well, until you tell me how well you know him. But let me ask you this. I mean, everybody's now going to be trying to figure out what he believes and where to put him in these ideological categories. And some people on the far right seem to think that he is in the Pope Francis mold, meaning something that they don't like. Do you think that that's true?
EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION CONTRIBUTOR: I think he's in the Pope Francis mold in that he supports many of the social issues that Pope Francis did, especially immigration and climate change, and certainly care of the poor. I mean, this man chose to be a missionary to go to Peru to give his life and service. And so he went to the peripheries, as far as he was concerned, and in that way he's very much like Pope Francis.
But the way he even came out on the balcony, remember Pope Francis, just Francis came out just from the white sutana. He came out like Pope Benedict came out, you know, with the mozzetta, the red stole and the choir stole.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Was he wearing red loafers?
BECK: We don't know. I didn't see the loafers. But, I mean, I just think that he's really what he said he is, I'm a bridge builder. I want to continue in that tradition. He said God loves everyone. I come to bring peace. Peace be with you. So, he's very much in the mold of Pope Francis. But I wouldn't say you're going to see him like on flights coming home with impromptu press conferences, saying stuff that's going to be quoted immediately the next day. He took an hour almost to write that text. He was deliberate in what he said, what he wanted to say. And so he's a very thoughtful man.
PHILLIP: But some of these social media posts that are on this account that has his name essentially, they very specifically -- I mean, the last time actually you were on the show, Father Beck, we were talking about this, J.D. Vance's vision of what the -- you know, what the Catholic Church ought to be about. And it criticized that in the same way that Pope Francis did.
[22:05:02]
And I think a lot of MAGA people see that as something of a betrayal.
I just want to play, this is Jack Poso. He's actually.
That in the same way that Pope Francis did, and I think a lot of MAGA people see that as something of a betrayal. I just want to play, this is Jack Posobiec. He's actually at the Vatican right now covering this for some right wing outlets. He's a very loud voice in conservative spheres. He's traveled with the defense secretary and other folks around President Trump. And here's what he had to say.
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JACK POSOBIEC, ALT-RIGHT POLITICAL ACTIVIST: I'm not going to mince words. This is not the election that conservatives wanted. God saved the church.
Will this pope continue to antagonize President Trump and J.D. Vance?
The choice of an American pope is clearly a reaction to President Trump. And I honestly can't see this red in almost any other light.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: A reaction to Trump?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, a couple things. Number one, I agree with the president. I think it's amazing that we have an American pope. And whether he has said certain things that I may or may not agree with politically, it's great for the United States of America because I think the church here is growing. And I think it would be amazing if he came back to the United States and had a massive rally in Chicago and allowed all these Catholics and Christians to come and celebrate the fact that we have a growing faith community in the United States. That's number one.
Number two, I think it's really hard to apply American political constructs to everything. You know, if you believe what the Catholics and the cardinals believe, the Holy Spirit guided them to pick this pope, am I right, father?
BECK: That is true.
JENNINGS: They didn't pick him because he wrote an op-ed or re- tweeted something. They picked him because the Holy Spirit guides the cardinals to the correct answer on who's going to lead the church and who's going to be the heir to St. Peter. And so I think that's --
JENNINGS: That's very good for non-Catholic.
JENNINGS: Well, my wife's a Catholic.
But I just think we have to respect that. And, you know, I'm a person of faith and a Christian. And I think we have to respect the divine intervention.
NAVARRO: So, I got to tell you, I think the first miracle of this pope is that I agree with you. I think it's like, you know, I've been watching the coverage all day, all afternoon, and we keep talking about him being American and what this means for American politics, because we in America, here in the United States, we think we are the -- I don't know, the belly button of the world. If you go and look at the footage and the coverage in Peru, they're talking about him being the first Peruvian pope and another Latin American pope.
There's 1.4 billion Catholics. I think part of the reason that he was chosen is because he is an international pope. I think part of the reason that he was chosen is because he is a continuation of the things that Francis did. Because, listen, you can't live in Peru. If you've ever been to Peru, you cannot live in Chiclayo, Peru, which was his diocese for 20 years, and not have a feel, not have compassion, not have, walked the streets with the poor.
BECK: And he has dual citizenship.
NAVARRO: and he has dual citizenship, right.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Can I piggyback on something that Scott said at the very beginning because I'm agreeing with both of you guys in that I think that it's naive is probably the best term to look at the election or the Conclave that selected this pope through the lens of American politics. You're looking at an institution that literally outdates your American political structures or dynamics.
And so, first, I just --
NAVARRO: It outdates America, period.
SELLERS: Correct. And so I think that looking at it through that lens, I think is just wholly inappropriate.
The other thing though is, as you're talking about him being the first Peruvian pope, one of the things that I look at is the fact that his grandparents were Creole, right, and he took the name of Pope Leo, who, in 1988, gave an amazing speech, an edict condemning slavery, becoming an abolitionist, right? And so there's so many layers to this individual, not just coming from Chicago, but who his grandparents were, or coming from the seventh ward in New Orleans and actually assuming another identity and going through and turning the pages of complexity.
And I just think that today is a great day of that maybe instead of chastising him for being too woke or too liberal and that, you know, when I see Laura Ingraham or Laura Loomer chastising him for being woke or tweet about that or too liberal, I was like, I just want to introduce you to Jesus if you think he's too liberal.
BEN FERGUSON, HOST, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: Look, I think you see you -- I think you think -- I think there's two things here. One, we'll see. We'll see what type of pope he is going to be. We'll see if he gets involved in the politics. I hope he cares more, and I think we are going to see that he cares more about having people come to faith and come to church and to get together and to love one another and to be missionaries to people.
I know what's happened with religion in this country and a lot of younger people have walked away from the church. I hope that having a pope from the United States of America inspires people to maybe go back to church.
BECK: But he has to be in politics in some way if they affect social issues.
FERGUSON: And I understand that.
PHILLIP: That's what I was going to say.
FERGUSON: I mean, I get that, but to think is it his job to walk out there day one and be political?
[22:10:00]
PHILLIP: Do you think that if he does, I mean, as the past pope had speak up on things that are in the politics, especially on this issue of migration, that's happening globally, not just in the United States is --
FERGUSON: No. My question is it personal politics or is it the church? And I think there's a fine line there.
PHILLIP: I think that he would argue that is doctrine.
NAVARRO: And I think people need to understand that being pope and being president of the United States are two completely different things and we can't judge them with the same spectrum, right? I mean, what were the things that Francis did that I think endeared him to so many people? He did things like every night he called the church in Gaza and asked them how they were, what they were eating, how they were doing. It doesn't mean that he was pro-Gaza, it means that he cared about the Christians suffering in Gaza. And I think that's very much part of the church.
You can't -- you know, we can't -- here in America, in the United States, for some reason, we want to see everything through, are they pro-Trump or anti-Trump? Are they conservative or are they liberal? Are they woke or anti-woke? Are they -- this is -- he is a worldwide leader.
FERGUSON: Which, by the way, to your point there, I think this is exactly why I think there's some people tonight that should give some credit to President Donald Trump for the way he responded. Because I think that's probably maybe a little different than what he would've said in 2016. And I think he's a guy now that kind of looks at certain moments like this and says --
SELLERS: Respectfully -- FERGUSON: But hold on, let me finish. What I'm saying is you look at what he said, saying this is a great day. He actually took politics out of this, the president of United America, which most people were wanting him to get involved politically.
NAVARRO: That was probably before he knew about that tweets that --
FERGUSON: No. Trust me, I'm sure he knew about him. I have no doubt he was well versed in what he had tweeted out before.
SELLERS: That bar is extremely low. And I think by setting the bar --
FERGUSON: But can you give a little credit if you say even -- so, in other words, even when Donald Trump does something right on the pope, you're now saying, I'm still going to criticize him?
SELLERS: No. Because, I mean, this is not an issue of politic. This is an issue of things like love and empathy and truth and that's --
FERGUSON: Then why don't show some of that towards the president when he gets it right on a nonpartisan issue of the pope.
SELLERS: Because I'm not going to simply give you credit for coming out and doing something that you're supposed to do. One of the most amazing things about this spiritual or religious journey that we're on is it's not the way we profess it. It's not the way we wear it on our sleeve. It's not whether or not you can quote James or Ecclesiastes. It's not those things. It's how you walk and whether or not people can see God in the way that you walk. And so --
(CROSSTALKS)
NAVARRO: You're going back to the point I was making, that we in the United States think we are the center of the universe. Who cares?
SELLERS: I just wanted to say that --
NAVARRO: Catholics and the --
PHILLIP: Let Bakari finish this thought.
NAVARRO: Catholics in the world are celebrating this choice. And, you know, one of the things that was wonderful today --
SELLERS: We're not.
NAVARRO: -- was when we saw in St. Peter's Square flags from all over the world and just this feeling of elation was this when this new pope was chosen.
You know, it is something that I think is very Catholic. Anybody that's -- any Catholic that's ever been in the presence of a pope, even if it's -- and it's been with me, and believe me, I'm a skeptic and I'm flawed, I'm a very flawed human, and a very flawed Catholic, but you can't --
BECK: Don't say so.
NAVARRO: I'm not going to confession.
FERGUSON: He's pulling you into that confession, Friday morning, 10 30.
NAVARRO: You can (INAUDIBLE) be touched by like the, you know, the wave of spirituality of millions of Catholics feeling what they're feeling.
So, when I tell you, can we just please stop looking at this through the spectrum of Donald Trump and the United States, this is global, this is spiritual, this goes far beyond that.
PHILLIP: We got to leave it there. Father Beck, thank you very much for joining us.
SELLERS: Pray for us all.
PHILLIP: And, yes, a great day for Catholics all across the world.
Coming up next, as Donald Trump announces his first trade deal world, the word tonight that he is pushing to tax the rich, a long time liberal policy.
Plus, breaking news tonight, Trump picks another Fox News host to run the government. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat.
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[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Tax the rich. That is something Republicans probably never thought that they would be considering, and yet here we are. According to multiple reports, President Trump is urging Congress to raise taxes on the wealthiest of Americans as part of a massive budget bill with Bloomberg saying that President Trump's plan calls for creating a new tax bracket for people who make at least $2.5 million dollars a year. That is a stark contrast to what we've been hearing from the GOP for generations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: By lowering everyone's tax rates all the way up the income scale, each of us will have a greater incentive to climb higher.
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Read my lips, no new taxes.
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Today, I am sending to Congress my plan to provide relief to all income taxpayers.
SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Obama has an ideological commitment to higher taxes. It's like he just can't help himself. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the American people don't want us to raise taxes.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I'm not in favor of raising the tax rates because that's -- our party is the group that stands against that traditionally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That was just a couple days ago, that last one. But tonight, a signal of the openness to the idea from the Trump administration.
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HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: If the president's cool with it, I am definitely cool with it.
But the politics of all this is really in the president's hands. He knows it better than anybody else. But if you want to know what my support is, I stand right behind him on that thought.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at the table now is Alexis Glick.
[22:20:00]
She is a Wall Street executive and an investor and board member of several companies. Alexis, welcome to the show.
Scott Jennings, I have to ask you, are you cool with?
JENNINGS: It makes me nervous because this is the core DNA of the Republican party, not to raise income taxes of any kind. That's number one. Number two, I can understand the political impulse because if you do it, it takes off the table the Democratic attacks. Oh, you're just cutting taxes for the wealthy.
PHILLIP: They would throw parties for him probably because this is what they've wanted.
JENNINGS: But number three what I worry about tactically is that it will probably split the Republicans in the House and the Senate. You may have some that go with them and some that don't. And it's already a fraught enough process to get reconciliation done that this could be a wrinkle.
The most important thing they can do is make permanent the president's tax cuts. If they don't do that, that'll be the largest tax increase in American history. That's project one. To me, if this endangers that, that makes me nervous for the president's overall agenda.
PHILLIP: I think one of the reasons though, that we're even talking about this is because somewhere, somehow in the White House, they're realizing that the math isn't mathing, that they're going to have to figure out how to make all of these promises work and it's going to cost a lot of money. And the tariffs are not sustainable to, quote/unquote, pay for it, which is questionable whether they would in the first place.
ALEXIS GLICK, WALL STREET EXECUTIVE: Well, not only are the tariffs not sustainable, but the deals will not be done fast enough. So, if you look at the three different ways that the Treasury Secretary has talked about raising money, right, he has said it would be a combination of DOGE, things around efficiency, IRS, et cetera, tech, right? We've talked a lot about the trade deals, but the trade deals are going to take time, right? Most of those trade deals will not be done until the end of the year. And so now we have to ask yourself is where can we raise the funds.
Now, this is only going to be about $68 billion over the next ten years, so it's not going to be the fix.
PHILLIP: You mean raising the taxes?
GLICK: Raising the taxes on the rich from 37 up to 39.6, I think it is, if you're making $2.5 million.
SELLERS: If you round it up 40, it sounds better.
GLICK: It rounded up, yes.
PHILLIP: But, I mean this is -- and this is why look for so long, Republicans have said no raising taxes on anybody because nobody should be paying more taxes. Democrats, you know, they historically have set that number at $400,000 or something around that number because there's a lot of support for that. 58 percent say that people making over $400,000 should have their taxes go up. So, Ben, are you ready? Are you ready to do it?
FERGUSON: This is not number one, this is not going to happen. Two, I think this is probably some are of the deal and some trolling from Trump where he is like, all right, let's throw this on the table and watch what happens. But the third thing is go back to the tariffs, they will absolutely be done by the end of the year. The big ones, the most important ones, they're going to be done by the end of the year and probably long before the end of the year. So, this idea that like the math doesn't add up and we got a big problem here, it's a little rich. Hold on, it's a little rich --
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: It's a little rich from people that have had yet no problem with a massive, I mean, trillion dollar deficit to say, oh, now we got raise taxes, 2 percent on the rich, or we're going to run out of money, right? Come on.
PHILLIP: Because trade deficits are not what the president says that they are.
FERGUSON: They're going to get done sooner.
PHILLIP: I think you know that. FERGUSON: No, but they're going to get done soon. And this idea that all of a sudden this is the --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Let me follow your logic first for a second here. The trade deals get done. Let's say that they get done. Presumptively, the goal of the trade deals is to lower the tariff rates, so that actually should reduce how much money is coming in to the treasury coffers. So how does that help Trump, you know, balance this budget?
FERGUSON: I think there's two things. Number one, the Trump tax cuts is what he cares about the most. Two, he cares about getting a better deal for the U.S. and exports and new jobs. But if you have more Americans that are hired because you have more manufacturing, because you have trade deals that are actually helping American workers, they pay taxes.
PHILLIP: Before the end of the calendar year?
FERGUSON: They pay taxes. They pay a ton of taxes. If Americans make more money in manufacturing, and that's what the president said, we need better jobs, we need to stop exporting jobs, we need to have more manufacturing in the U.S., you're going to have a lot of taxes that are going to be paid. And if you have money that's actually coming in from tariffs, as we change some of these, which there is more money coming in now, I think there'll be more money than over last year when this is all said and done as well, you have a better plan for this country from the present. So, I don't think this is some crazy idea.
And, again, the idea that somehow now there's a massive crisis over this and he's got to raise taxes on the rich, I'm sorry --
PHILLIP: Well, no. Here's the reason that he's considering raising taxes on the rich, is that he wants to extend his tax cuts, yes.
SELLERS: But, I mean --
PHILLIP: he also wants no taxes on tips. He also wants no taxes on Social Security. He also wants no taxes on overtime.
NAVARRO: Okay. Let me say a couple of things.
PHILLIP: He's made a lot of promises.
NAVARRO: I'll see this, this tax increase on people making over $2.5 million dollars. I will believe it when I see it. Because I think there is a reason why the wealthiest men in the world were all standing there at his swearing in, and there is a reason why all of these crypto grifters are giving him all of the money that they're giving him at these fundraisers.
[22:25:05]
I really have an issue when you -- and, you know, and I've heard a lot of people talk about short-term pain and it'll be done by the end of the year. The thing is, there are a lot of people in America who make a lot less money than us sitting around this table who don't have until the end of the year to endorse short-term pain, who can't pay for the groceries today.
FERGUSON: And I understand that point.
PHILLIP: And so (INAUDIBLE) those tariffs are life-changing.
FERGUSON: You go back to Americans that lost their jobs in manufacturing and towns that disappeared and tell them that their long-term pain of losing an entire industry and their family and something they built --
(CROSSTALKS)
NAVARRO: How do you tell them that when they can't pay for the doll for their kid? How do you tell them that when they can't pay for their groceries this week?
PHILLIP: Bakari -- hold on, Ben. Bakari?
SELLERS: Listen, well, me and Scott, we'll just have our own little show. Listen, what I want to -- I think you're betting on some level of consistency, Ben, and I think you're betting on some level of actual policy. And what the president hasn't done is laid out any of that. When we're talking about tariffs, the first deal that was cut with the major country is who? The U.K.
FERGUSON: Yes. He said, who came first gets the best deal.
SELLERS: We have a $12 billion surplus with them. It does absolutely nothing to our bottom line. It doesn't help us pay for those --
FERGUSON: That's totally not true. That is completely a lie. That's just wrong. That's totally wrong. We couldn't get our beef into the U.K.
PHILLIP: Hold on.
GLICK: There's couple of reasons why that's wrong. You're right about the $12 billion surplus, right, if you look at them, and they're the sixth largest economy in the world, right? They are not one of our top three trading partners. I get it. We're all focused on Canada, Mexico, and China. Although I do think we'll have a deal with India and Japan very soon.
PHILLIP: Yes.
GLICK: Number one, I think it's critically important they got this deal done before they meet with China this weekend.
FERGUSON: You set a precedent.
GLICK: Set a precedent, number one.
Number two, if you look at autos, steel, aluminum, that was a big part of this deal. And so if you look at what the automakers did is they suspended guidance a week ago because they couldn't forward forecast their performance.
SELLERS: Correct. The consistency they had none, correct.
GLICK: A key piece of this was the autos, the aluminum, and the steel, and the other part was agriculture. That is a big part of the president's agenda.
The heartland, how do we protect the cattle ranchers, the dairy farmers, et cetera?
FERGUSON: We couldn't, it was unfair.
GLICK: And the whole issue with this idea of taxing the wealthy is that he needs to get back to the idea of the levies on tips, the idea of removing taxes on Social Security. He's got to get back and figure out the small business owner, what are we doing to help the mainland. So, some of this, the heartland of America, is a burner because of that.
NAVARRO: Can I tell you, at the same time that you're talking about the heartland of America, he's done things like eliminate USAID that did a lot to help the heartland handle of America.
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: But also, I mean, we're talking about eliminating Section 8. We're talking about just programs that directly help these people.
So, I guess my question --
GLICK: Agree SNAP, all of those programs, moving them from the federal to state. I get it.
SELLERS: So, my question to you, because as you're educating me through this process, thank you, my question to you is, are we bartering at the expense of these low to middle class individuals and just throwing this carrot out of inconsistency to our larger businesses, agriculture, et cetera, hoping that something comes through this over the past -- over the next year?
FERGUSON: Is it people or is it --
(CROSSTALKS)
GLICK: I don't robbing Peter to pay Paul right now. I think what we're trying to do is take trade deals that are decades -- I mean, these are trade deals that are existence since post World War II. We're trying to level the playing field. The problem is we're trying to do everything all at once. That is the crisis, right? That's the problem. But these trade deals need to be renegotiated. And if the trade deals are renegotiated fairly, the American worker will do well.
PHILLIP: Alexis, let me ask you one, one more thing, because we do have to go soon. 10 percent is, he said, the floor now for the whole world, essentially. So, even if you bring your tariffs down to zero on the United States, Trump is going to say 10 percent on you. And the Fed is looking at that and is saying, what?
GLICK: Well, the Fed is looking at it right now, and the Fed is stuck, right? Because right now all we're concerned about is inflation. In fact, at this stage in the game, if the Fed were to come out and cut rates right now, that would actually be probably a negative sign, right? The Fed has to stabilize. They have to worry about inflation and unemployment. Our last unemployment number was not a bad number.
The issue right now is that as these trade deals take longer and longer to negotiate, the question is, will the store shelves will be empty? Will we hurt more American families, more small business owners who have less of a voice on the hill?
[22:30:05]
Yes, that is a real concern. But the key here is they've got to convert some of these deals, begin to show the momentum of getting some wins. And some of these wins today were for the auto industry. Some of these wins today were for agriculture. Some of these wins today were for ethanol.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: It -- it seems like, I mean, to Bakari's point, that Trump is trading higher prices for consumers, basically, the -- the sort of base of the economy in exchange for deals for, the incumbent players, autos, even agriculture, which are large players here. I -- there's an aspect of that that's happening right now, as well, because what -- what this is, is a baseline tax increase on every American that buys anything, anywhere in the world.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, but you're opening up markets for people that didn't previously have it. These agriculture markets, I cannot tell you --
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
JENNINGS: -- how happy these agriculture beef cattle people are today. They've never been able to do business there. And I also have to say one other thing. Now, the other night, you said that the United Kingdom and other countries were wheeling and dealing with each other to protect themselves from the United States.
PHILLIP: Okay.
JENNINGS: To me, the signal this sends is -- is that -- is that --
PHILLIP: Yeah, but it was -- but -- but --
JENNINGS: And what I said was deals are going to --
PHILLIP: -- those deals are going to actually happening.
JENNINGS: But deals -- but you -- you were -- you were acting like that these other countries were forming alliances against us. What I think this signals -- what I think this signals --
PHILLIP: Some of them -- some of them are.
JENNINGS: This signals --
PHILLIP: I mean, Scott. Scott.
JENNINGS: Is that our oldest ally --
PHILLIP: Scott, hold on.
JENNINGS: -- the United -- I understand why the United Kingdom is at the White House today --
PHILLIP: Okay.
JENNINGS: -- and it sends a signal to the rest of the world that the United States is the people that do business with them.
PHILLIP: We're grown-ups here. Both things can be true at the same time, that the U.K. can strike a deal with the United States that essentially, opens up some things that Donald Trump wants, and he needs this deal as much as they do.
(CROSSTALK)
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Because by cutting out -- by cutting out USAID --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And also, hold on a second, guys.
JENNINGS: Narrative has been and we're isolated, and it's not true.
PHILLIP: It is also true that -- that Asian countries and other parts of the world are trying to be around us. They are negotiating around us.
UNKNOWN: Yes, they are.
PHILLIP: Canada is doing deals with other countries.
JENNINGS: It's not the picture that's been painted.
UNKNOWN: Yeah. It's --
PHILLIP: Okay, the picture -- okay.
JENNINGS: The narrative was --
PHILLIP: I -- I know.
JENNINGS: -- you're isolated and now we the deal and you know it.
PHILLIP: I know that you've been waiting to say this, but it is true. It is true that other countries are trying to create other blocks so that they can protect themselves from the capriciousness of this administration.
UNKNOWN: So --
PHILLIP: Both things can be true at the same time.
JENNINGS: So you don't like -- you don't like this deal? Do you like it that we have to deal or not?
PHILLIP: We're going to leave it there.
(CROSSTALK)
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Can I -- can I tell you something though?
PHILLIP: We do have to go.
NAVARRO: Okay.
PHILLIP: Alexis, thank you very, very much for joining us. We appreciate it. Everyone else, don't go anywhere. Tonight, breaking news. Donald Trump taps a Fox host, Jeanine Pirro, to be a U.S. attorney in Washington -- in Washington D.C. Elie Honig is going to be with us in our fifth seat.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:37:33]
PHILLIP: At this point, the Doocys in Karl Rove will be the only ones left at Fox News. Donald Trump has once again looked to the Fox News green room to fill his government and is officially naming Jeanine Pirro as D.C.'s Interim U.S. Attorney.
Pirro is a co-host of Fox's "The Five" and a former judge and prosecutor. He'll recall she was named in Dominion's defamation suit against the network after she pushed baseless conspiracy theories about the 2020 election.
Joining us now in our fifth seat at the table, CNN legal analyst, Elie Honig. Elie, one of the-- I think on the -- the qualifications in terms of, like, she understands the law, we get that part.
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah.
PHILLIP: But it seems that the pushing of the wild conspiracies around the election is a big red flag.
HONIG: Well, that's just it. On paper, on paper, Jeanine Pirro is amply qualified for the show. She was a prosecutor for a long time. She was the elected D.A. Westchester County. She was a judge. That's plenty for a U.S. Attorney. The problem though is she's Jeanine Pirro. And I don't mean that because she's this loud, controversial, abrasive TV personality. I mean that because she was one of the leading proponents of the election fraud theory. She said it over and over. She came up with wild theories. And this is not just one of these sort of halfway election deniers who says, well, I don't think the way that the state legislatures passed the laws were good. She made up wacko theories about these voting machines were put together in Cuba and with Venezuela.
PHILLIP: Let me just go ahead and play it.
HONIG: Yeah, please.
PHILLIP: We do have it, the montage. Let's play.
SELLERS: A montage? That's French.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANINE PIRRO, FOX NEWS HOST: There appears to be evidence of, you know, illegals voting, dead people voting, a box is being pulled out after people are told to leave. No reasonable observer being able to see any of the ballots.
SIDNEY POWELL, TRUMP CAMPAIGN ATTORNEY: The money creating it came out of Venezuela and Cuba. It is one huge, huge criminal conspiracy that should be investigated by military intelligence for -
PIRRO: Hopefully, the Department of Justice, but -- but who knows anymore? These are serious allegations. But the media has no interest in any of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HONIG: Yeah. Let me quote a Fox News executive producer who worked with Jeanine Pirro. He said she is quote, "rife with conspiracy theories and BS". And to me this presents two problems for someone who's going to have a very important prosecutorial position.
[22:40:00]
One, credibility. I mean, how is she espousing these things?
PHILLIP: Right.
HONIG: Stupid or liar, right? It's got to be one or the other. And then the second thing is independence, right? If this is a person who's willing to espouse these lies for Donald Trump, is she really going to have any independence?
SELLERS: I think, I mean, one of the things when you talk about conspiracy theories, I don't think that gives it enough credit. This lawsuit was settled for $787 million. I mean, they -- they set in a mediation room at JAMS in Phil -- in Pennsylvania to settle this suit on a weekend for $700 million. So, it's a little bit more than a conspiracy theory. However, I'm someone who will simply say that I think her level of independence has -- is more of a demerit about her taking this job than even the lawsuit because she has those credentials to be the United States attorney.
I think she has to come in front of the United States Senate, and she's somebody I probably wouldn't vote for, but I would actually take with an open mind and ask her questions that go down the line of independence. I would say, are you able to -- because you're -- you're one of 20 plus people that he's taken from Fox News. Are you able to separate what the -- what Donald Trump says from your daily task? I want to hear you say this. I want to get that down on paper. That matters to me more than her being a part of this lawsuit.
PHILLIP: And of course --
SELLERS: And the reason I say that is because of the fact that, yes, she -- you're talking about someone who actually, in her past career, one of the things that stood out about Judge Pirro, and I'm saying this live on TV so she may not even be confirmed by her own colleagues, is that she actually cared about victims in crimes, particularly violent crimes.
She was actually very, very good at that. She had a heartbeat for that. And so she has a history and a record of that. And so, I would actually want to ask her some questions before I vote a yay or nay.
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, independence is probably the opposite of what Trump wants in this job that's why he wanted Ed Martin in the first place who described himself as Trump's attorney in that interim post.
UNKNOWN: Ed Martin is not qualified to like babysit.
NAVARRO: Ed Martin, in a way -- and I think this was good for Trump. I think it was good for Trump that some Republicans actually stood up for him because you don't want Ed Martin, in that position. And I think there's Republicans who probably, today, regret that in order to kowtow to Trump, they voted for a Pete Hegseth, right?
And I just -- look. I just hope that all the senators scrutinize her and scrutinize anybody who comes up for a senate-confirmed position very thoroughly. I'm -- I'm rather surprised that she wants this job. It means that she's going to, like, lay herself naked, her financial stuff, her all sorts of things.
She's got to answer. She's going to, you know, this is a job where she's going to make a pittance in comparison to what she's been making out of Fox. She's not going to be able to have three martini lunches. I'm just kind of like surprised by this entire thing.
BEN FERGUSON, "THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW" HOST: It's interesting, I talked to somebody today that knows her really well, and I said, hey, what's your read on this? And they said, look, I think she misses going after criminals and going after horrible people that commit heinous crimes. And if you look at her history, back to what you were saying, this is a nice book into a career and look, she does a great job. She's very entertaining. People obviously love listening to her, watch her look at the ratings of her show.
To walk away from all that and maybe go back and say, I've got a little work left to do in my career in what I really grew up doing, I kind of respect that, and I think some people would come after and say, oh, well this or that or the other.
Look at her body of work when she was an attorney and a judge as a prosecutor and couldn't she do that job really well? I think the answer is yes, and I think that's what they should be asking her about because no one's caring about the stuff in the political world you're talking about from back in the last election.
PHILLIP: Well, I -- I mean, look. I -- I think it's relevant.
FERGUSON: But the voters didn't care is what I'm saying.
PHILLIP: Well, she's not being voted on.
FERGUSON: But Donald Trump was. And Dominion -- it was such a big deal --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: She's -- she's not being voted on. She is being appointed.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I think, though, that it's interesting, Elie.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on, Ben.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I think that it's interesting that she is the -- going to be the interim U.S. attorney because, actually, it'll give us some answers to some of these questions about what her priorities are going to be in that time.
JENNINGS: She's not been nominated. She's just interim for right now. And this has a time limit just like Martin's and the President needed to make a move, right? Because if he didn't --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Because Martin is out at the end of the week.
JENNINGS: And --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: -- was going to get to pick, right? And so the decisiveness there, I think Martin didn't have the vote, so that was good. I agree with what you said. On paper, extremely qualified. Probably more qualified than half the U.S. Attorneys that Biden got around to nominating. And I agree with what you said. Her history on violent crimes, especially against the elderly -- elderly abuse.
There there's a solid record there, and I agree with what you said, which is an interim period gives you a chance to see how someone's going to perform. So, I actually think it's going to be okay, and we'll have a chance to find out.
PHILLIP: All right. We got to go. Elie Honig, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, stay with us. Coming up next, Ana had a big day today on "The View". Joe Biden spent the hour at the table blaming racism and sexism for Kamala Harris' election loss. We'll discuss that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:49:33]
PHILLIP: Tonight, pointing fingers. Joe Biden joined Ana and the women of "The View" today and gave his explanation for what went wrong in November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: So, why do you think the vice president lost and were you surprised?
UNKNOWN: Oh.
JOE BIDEN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I wasn't surprised, not because I didn't think the vice president was qualified person to be president. She is. She's qualified to be President of The United States of America.
[22:50:00]
But I was surprised -- I -- I wasn't surprised because they went the route of the sexist route on the whole route. I mean, this is a woman. She's this. She's that. I mean, it really -- I -- I've never seen quite a -- a successful and a consistent campaign undercutting the notion that a woman couldn't leave the country and a woman of mixed race.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I've seen some criticism of that, saying that it's not the full picture.
SELLERS: I mean, I -- I think there is a lot to do with that. I mean, I think anybody who says that that has absolutely nothing to do with it is, is just not being intellectually honest. Was that the whole reason? To your point, is that the full picture? Of course not. That's not the full picture. I think that there were economic headwinds against a Democrat being President of the United States.
I think that there were immigration headwinds against a Democrat being President of the United States. And I also think that there were, people who felt as if and if this is the most amazing stat that came out of the most recent election. Are you better off four years ago?
PHILLIP: Right.
SELLERS: Are you better off today than you were four years ago? And the overwhelming majority of people answered that question no.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
SELLERS: Kamala Harris was more than qualified to be President of the United States, and I'm not sure that any Democrat, and I say this again, would have beaten Donald Trump in that race.
PHILLIP: Why -- but why can't Joe Biden understand that? That it's -- that it was immigration, the economy. Why -- I mean, I thought that was -- hold on. I thought that was the most strike -- one of the most striking things was his unwillingness to even acknowledge that maybe some of the issues had to do with it, too.
NAVARRO: No. If you watched the entire interview, he did acknowledge it, and he took responsibility. He said, look, I was in charge. So, yeah, the buck stops with me. I was, you know, it is my responsibility. I think part of what -- what happened between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and -- and this entire election is that there's a lot of affection and loyalty between the two.
There was a lot of gossip for four years that they didn't like each other, that he was undercutting her, that she was unhappy. I think she couldn't distance him -- herself from him out of loyalty. And I think today what you heard from him was a lot of deference and affection towards his vice president, a role that he played.
JENNINGS: Hold on. But let me -- let me ask you a question though. He said he wasn't surprised that she lost, but that he would have won the race. That's like saying, well, you know, I was a boat anchor on my vice president, so she drowned in this election, but the anchor itself would have floated? That's a crazy. That is crazy talk for him to say that.
NAVARRO: No, he -- he did not say that. He did not say --
FERGUSON: He did.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: He literally said, I wasn't surprised --
FERGUSON: He said I would have won.
JENNINGS: I would have won. The idea that he believes to this day --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: I don't -- I don't --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He not only said that, he has said it repeatedly that he believes he would have won.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Let's go back to what he said about racism. Can we just take a moment and talk about a white guy saying that racism's why it shouldn't win, and also the same white guy, Joe Biden, says I would have won. Like, you were one and the same person here. Like, if you're going to blame racism, it's absurd. My point is, I didn't say she lost because racism is absurd. She lost because the country was in a disastrous place, and they blamed him and his politics. She had to defend.
NAVARRO: Can I tell you something?
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Can I tell you something? You, as white guy have the privilege of saying that racism and you as a white male -- okay. I am telling you right now, okay. And I am -- okay. Okay, Ben.
FERGUSON: I'm saying it's an incredibly ridiculous statement as a white guy --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: As a woman with color, I am telling you that it is incredibly ridiculous for you with the privilege that being a white male gives you in this country to say that there wasn't some element of racism.
FERGUSON: I think it was the policies. I think if you guys stick --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: One second, Ben.
FERGUSON: Hold on. If you stick with this plan, which is every time we lose an election, racism has to be involved.
SELLERS: That's not what I just said. I literally gave you a full picture.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, he didn't say that.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: That's what Joe Biden said.
SELLERS: Full picture. And what I'm saying is that yes, I believe Joe Biden saying he'd win the election is delusional, right? So I said that because I also said there is a certain point. But let me also explain with the equal level of delusion. You do understand that black folk, particularly black women, have to run twice as fast as you do to achieve the same goal. And if you do not understand
FERGUSON: I disagree with that. SELLERS: You can.
FERGUSON: I disagree with that.
SELLERS: You can, and I'm just telling you that that is the experience whether or not you're in politics or the business world or education.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: So, let me ask you this.
PHILLIP: Hold on, hold on, Ben.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- Joe Biden from candidacy. If what you're saying is true, then he would have won overwhelmingly.
PHILLIP: Bakari --
SELLERS: That's not what I just said.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me -- let me just actually ask you something because --
SELLERS: That's not what I just --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: You're not making any sense.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You -- you just said that it's twice as hard for African- Americans to win.
PHILLIP: Given what you just said, if you believe that it would have been twice as hard for Kamala Harris to win, isn't it even more important for Joe Biden to have given her ability to --
SELLERS: I don't I don't think that's a question. But that -- that's not a -- that's not a question. And Ana brought up a good point because --
NAVARRO: No.
[22:55:00]
SELLERS: Out of all -- all the people -- I'd say this is a good question. I said out of all the people that are sitting around this table, I was actually a part of those discussions. And the person who did not want to distance himself because of loyalty, although she might not have had the loyalty given back from some of the women, particularly who were around Joe Biden, was Kamala Harris. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, but -- but did Joe Biden say --
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: She did have it from Joe Biden. Correct. That's actually a fact.
PHILLIP: But did Joe Biden ever say to her, you need to do --
JENNINGS: Yes, that's right.
PHILLLIP: Exactly what you need to do to win this election.
SELLERS: No.
JENNINGS: You're totally right.
PHILLIP: You need to --
SELLERS: No.
PHILLIP: -- pursue a policy that is --
SELLERS: No. And by the way --
PHILLIP: -- what you need. So that's -- that's the answer, right?
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: I cannot I cannot let this go. I cannot let this go on this show in front of millions of Americans who will watch this whether or not it's on Snapchat, TikTok or Twitter. The point still remains when we're talking about the issue of race and gender in this country that everyone is not on equal playing fields. That the fact that, yes, we have a black woman, whether or not she is in academia, whether or not she's in business or in politics.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: The field is not equal. She's actually the best candidate for governor of the of the state of Georgia or whatever else she wants to do.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: If she's so good and it's only an issue of what you're saying?
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: California. What did I say?
PHILLIP: Georgia.
SELLERS: Okay. Sorry.
PHILLIP: All right, Scott. Hold on, Ben. Scott, go ahead.
JENNINGS: Can I ask you one other sort of forward looking issue? Watching him on "The View" today and watching some of the interviews he did over --
NAVARRO: Thank you for your viewership.
JENNINGS: Yeah, I saw it. It's rare for me, but I did -- I did watch it.
UNKNOWN: I'm on it.
JENNINGS: I will just say watching him over the last few days reminded me that a whole bunch of people were telling us with a straight face that this man was capable of serving another four years as president. And that these appearances coupled with what I understand is going to be the equivalent of a nuclear bomb dropped on the Democratic Party when Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson's book come out next week, I don't know that the Democrats have fully internalized what's about to happen to them between what he looks like today and what they're about to report.
PHILLIP: I am not -- I am not sure that Joe Biden, fully realizes even his own deficits in this moment, Ana. I think seriously, he seems to not, to -- I mean, you -- he was asked about it directly and he doesn't seem to get it at all, which is part of the problem.
NAVARRO: Well, look, Abby. I don't know many elected officials, in any party who willingly walk away from their elected office, right? I think it's hard for everybody. Look, I -- I think this was very hard for Joe Biden and I think he took responsibility for that. He did not say what you just said, Scott, that he said --
JENNINGS: What? What?
NAVARRO: You just said that he told --
JENNINGS: What did he not say?
NAVARRO: He -- you said that he told Kamala Harris that she could not have any distance from him.
JENNINGS: It's been reported. He told her to point blank --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: It doesn't matter what he was.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Okay, because reporting can never be wrong?
JENNINGS: Are you attacking the journalism around it? NAVARRO: You think reporting can never be wrong? If you were to be--
you come in and you come out here and you attack reporting every night.
JENNINGS: I do not.
NAVARRO: We actually asked him the question directly.
JENNINGS: I'm -- I'm -- there's critical reporting about this guy.
NAVARRO: Okay.
JENNINGS: And he told her point blank --
NAVARRO: Well, we asked him --
JENNINGS: -- no daylight.
NAVARRO: -- we asked him directly today. Did you tell her that?
PHILLIP: All right, last --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: You think he's never told a lie?
NAVARRO: I don't think he tells many lies.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: He told a lie when he's starting to decline. I can tell you that much.
NAVARRO: I don't think he tells many lies. I don't think he's --
JENNINGS: Come on.
NAVARRO: Wait. Wait. No. You know why you don't get to laugh like that? Because you support a guy who lies every freaking day and lies continuously.
JENNINGS: It's tragic what you just said.
NAVARRO: You support a guy who cannot -- who cannot acknowledge that he lost the 2020 election and that lies about it.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: I have no idea what's in--
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We got to go guys. Thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- a cover-up.
NAVARRO: Have you read it?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Guys --
NAVARRO: Have you read it?
PHILLIP: We got to go. Thank you very much.
NAVARRO: Okay.
PHILLIP: We'll be right back.
