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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Released Audio Of Robert Hur's 2023 Interview With Biden; Secret Service Interviews James Comey Over 86 47 Post; DHS Considers A Reality Show Where Immigrants Compete To Become Americans; Trump Comments About Bruce Springsteen And Taylor Swift. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 16, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, Joe Biden's decline on tape. We're now hearing the recordings of the infamous interview with Robert Hur, who called Biden an elderly man with a poor memory.
Plus from F your feelings to you're all snowflakes, to shock over seashells by the seashore, is the outrage warranted or just theater?
Also, a potential new casting call for the T.V. presidency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Action.
PHILLIP: The administration considers a reality show where immigrants compete to become American.
And the president declares Taylor Swift, no longer hot. His MAGA mouthpiece makes his own profound declaration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who's going to sleep with these ugly ass, broke liberal women?
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Joe Borelli, Maria Cardona, Pete Seat, Ahmed Baba and Mike Leon.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, the tapes. The infamous Robert Hur interview was one of the precursors to the serious questions about Joe Biden's decline while in office. The special counsel questioned the former president in the fall of 2023 while he was investigating his handling of classified documents.
You might remember that Hur decided not to charge Biden because he thought a jury would find him sympathetic. Why? Well, because he was, quote, an elderly man with a poor memory. But now that we know more damning revelations about how the White House hid Biden's health from the public, his staff, and even his cabinet secretaries, the audio of that recording from that interview tell a big part of the story and Axios obtained them tonight. It shows how Biden struggled to answer questions, remembering big events, and coming up with the right word. Just a portion of it is what we're going to play for you. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: This is, what, 2017, '18, that area?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
BIDEN: Remember in this timeframe, my son is either been deployed or is dying.
And so what was happening though, when the Beau died, oh my God, May 30th --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 2015.
BIDEN: Was it 2015 he had died?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was May of 2015.
BIDEN: It was 2015.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The question that preceded that very halting answer was pretty simple. Where did you keep the documents? Maria, we know why the White House didn't want this released. That was obvious at the time. They thought it would be incredibly politically damaging, and it is. But it also reveals something I think very troubling to a lot of Americans.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Which is what that we didn't know already. This is kind of my question. We knew --
PHILLIP: What part of this --
CARDONA: We knew this, Abby. All of this has been coming out in.
PHILLIP: Well, we know this -- I think there's a distinction between what we know right now and what we knew in December 2023, January 2023.
CARDONA: Sure.
PHILLIP: Did we know that the president, when asked a simple question, could not finish sentences, couldn't recall dates of critically important things that happened in his own life? I don't think that was clear. In fact, the White House was saying quite the opposite.
CARDONA: And I think that that is something that Joe Biden paid for and the Democratic Party paid for. He lost the election. And everything that we've been hearing throughout, you know, Jake Tapper's book and everything else that has come out, we clearly know that the White House staff was not honest with the American people. And those of us who were told something that wasn't true, we are dealing with that. And, you know, a lot of us are not happy about it. But the fact of the matter is, Abby, at this moment in time, the release of these tapes does what?
Again, it doesn't -- is Joe Biden running for president? Is he president? Is he running for anything? No. So, I think that while this is something that I know the American people, many people think the American people have a right to know this, and so they do. And this is something that they -- the reckoning has been happening already. But look at the other headlines that have been happening today and what are we facing today with Donald Trump --
[22:05:04]
PHILLIP: Before we go onto the other headlines, which we will do, we have a lot of the show left, I do still want to focus on this because accountability is the thing that I think is missing here. I think there are a lot of people saying, well, we know it now, so, oh, it's fine. But the truth is that there were people whose -- I mean, I don't know what some of these spokespeople knew, but let's just play actually what some of these Biden officials were saying about the Hur report and about Robert Hur himself. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IAN SAMS, BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SPOKESMAN: You're left to wonder why this report spends time making gratuitous and inappropriate criticisms of the president.
KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: What I saw that report last night, I believe, is, as a former prosecutor, the comments that were made by that prosecutor, gratuitous, inaccurate, and inappropriate.
The way that the president's demeanor in that report was characterized could not be more wrong on the facts and clearly politically- motivated.
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: As it relates to his age, as it relates to what has been said by, you know, in this report, it is something that we don't believe lives in reality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE LEON, PODCAST HOST, CAN WE PLEASE TALK?: There's a chronological timeline here that we're all missing, right? For the network that I used to work at down the street talking about Biden's cognitive decline during 2020 when he was clearly lucid, that's wrong.
But then when we move into 2023 and what we're dealing with now, with all of this information coming out, I want to echo something that Alex said at the White House Correspondents' Dinner, this is what journalism is supposed to uncover. Like I know that at that time, the party has to unify, and with respect to messaging, go out there, they got to kill Robert Hur figuratively, not literally, okay? I know 86 47. So, they have to do these certain things and all be unified on the message front.
But now we have to own this. This stuff is coming out now. The election's over, it doesn't matter. Now's the time for the analysis part of this, of how future administrations don't hide the fact, including the one right now with a 78-year-old man that potentially, in a couple years, this could be happening to.
We can't kill them if they start -- I mean, we can kill them if they start covering up things like this. Like I like that this information is coming out now. Obviously, we would've liked for it to come out earlier on, so it could have given the Democratic Party a true chance at somebody. But there's an order of it, you know?
PHILLIP: These clips were in from February. I mean, if Democrats had taken seriously, which, by the way, in a way, Robert Hur kind of undersold this. Yes, he kind of threw Joe Biden a lifeline. It was an opportunity actually for Democrats to take it seriously, maybe change gears at that point, and maybe given a potential nominee more time.
JOE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: He gave him dignity in the answer as president, which might have been warranted, but you just showed a clip of three people gaslighting and lying directly to the American people. And I would count the number at zero, the number is zero of people that heard the her tape and were surprised. And this is why there's so much distrust in media, because you're right, maybe in 2020, it wasn't obvious, but 2022, 2023, right?
Now, everyone saw this person first with the with the notes of who to ask questions, with the questions pre-handed out, pre-answered, right? Then there was the guy who couldn't get up the stairs. I mean, he couldn't get up a single flight of stairs without falling. He fell off his bike. He would struggle for every answer. We all saw that.
And most of us were able to identify the fact that the White House and allies in media were lying night after night after night, and then suddenly the script flipped it, Joe Biden was cast aside and suddenly now we could talk about that as though we all should have known or we all should have sort, we all made mistakes that maybe we should apologize for, but it was clear as day to anybody.
PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: There are a lot of damning vignettes in this audio if you go through it, but one I want to highlight very quickly is where President Biden admits that he held onto classified documents related to Afghanistan, and when he's asked about it, he says, oh, it was for posterity's sake.
So, he was admitting what the White House was telling us was just inadvertent, that all these documents were in boxes in his garage in Delaware, inadvertently. Here's the president admitting that he knowingly kept the document, but then his attorney interjects, Bob Bauer, and he's like, no, he doesn't remember, we can't speculate.
So, in private, they were leaning into his forgetfulness. They were trying to use that to protect him from a criminal charge. Yet to the public, they were telling us, oh, he's sharp and he's lucid, and he can recite the periodic table by memory.
BORELLI: Pete, you left out the most important part. We saw the -- we heard his attorneys stage-managing Joe Biden in some of those extended audio clips. You have a guy who couldn't talk to attorneys who were essentially asking very simple questions and he couldn't answer it without being stage-managed and scripted and prodded by his own attorneys.
[22:10:05]
He probably had to do that every day as president. That's why the American public, who was doing it for him?
AHMED BABA, FOUNDER, AHMEDBABA.NEWS: I mean, there's some stage- managing going on with Donald, various people influencing --
BORELLI: Yes, answering questions.
BABA: Well, of course, you know, not comparable. But I do want to say on the media front, just on your point about how was a media cover-up. I think I see that rhetoric a lot. I think the media covered it pretty ferociously as they could from the outside. I think they were constantly talking about his acuity. They would cover stumbles, they would cover what happened, you know, with the bicycle.
And I really think what this -- for me, it's a sad human story of a person who I really have a lot of respect for, who I think did really good job and office, the infrastructure bill, the Chips and Science Act. I think it would just -- if we had a 65-year-old Biden, maybe we'd be in a different country. We wouldn't have to deal with the avalanche of chaos we have currently.
But what I would just say is that I think, on the media side, I don't think it was necessarily a media failure, because I think they covered it ferociously. I just think now as we have this context in hindsight, the real key thing was he shouldn't have run for reelection.
PETE SEAT: He shouldn't have been president. He was not up to the task.
CARDONA: Can I just jump on that? Because you talked about accountability, and you're right, that is incredibly important. I think at the end of the day, the accountability falls with Joe Biden, and, frankly, probably with Jill Biden too, because --
PHILLIP: Yes, that's true, but it also falls on the Democratic Party that ostracized people who said anything about Joe Biden's --
CARDONA: Agreed.
PHILLIP: Including attacking the media for even raising the issue of agreed of his age, when clearly it was an issue. I mean, there's accountability there too.
CARDONA: Yes. I completely agree. But at the end of the day, he's the one who promised that he was going to be a bridge, that he was going to be a one term president, that he was not going to run for a second term, and then he didn't.
PETE SEAT: He was forced into that by George Clooney. I mean, let's be honest, he was the only one who had the courage to say something.
PHILLIP: I want to play just one more part. This is the second day, it was a multi-day interview, and one of the reasons that Axios released, I guess, snippets of both days is because you can see a clear difference between day one when the president was very tired, it seemed, and almost incoherent, and day two, which sounded like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: A lot has changed in terms of everything from the internet to the way in which we communicate with one another, to -- that has fundamentally altered the ability. I've had this discussion with the press.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
BIDEN: No, I'm sorry. That's what I wanted to do. I had nothing to do with Afghanistan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. That answered my question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And in a way, I mean, yes, he is speaking more clearly, he's finishing his sentences, he's speaking more quickly, but he's also rambling about something that he's not asked about. And so all of that, even the good day seems to raise questions about what was going on with President Biden at that time.
LEON: You know, the one thing I just want to piggyback on what Ahmed said in terms of the journalists covering this, we did something recently on Can We Please Talk, where we went back just to listen to some of the White House press briefings and I was telling you this, Abby, off air about from KJP back in, you know, what, over the last year, whatever it was.
And a lot of the questions from the press focused around voter concerns about the age, not about what Jake and Alex are alleging or some of the stuff had been proven in the book, which is about the actual cover-up of the administration, and people, like the lawyer that we just saw before, going out there and saying he's fine, or Kamala Harris going out there and saying, as a prosecutor, I did this, that, and the third. Like those type of things were not the questions that we were asking as media. Like we should have been a lot more intrusive because all of this is now coming out.
Now, and like you said, who does this help now? He's not running for anything. We all knew, like you said, Joe, we all knew he was an older man. But we knew it was being asked from the voter perspective, not from can he handle the next four years actually as president? He forgot Mizran (ph) was -- Mizran died in like '92 and he thought he was still in France, like those were things that were just not being, in my opinion, super harped on with respect to the media. PHILLIP: All right, we got to leave it there.
Coming up next, more breaking news, the Secret Service interviewing James Comey tonight over his 86 47 beach picture. Is the outrage warranted or is this all just theater?
Plus, we are learning some new details about the reality show the administration is considering where immigrants compete to become Americans. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, the investigator gets investigated. An Instagram post from former FBI Director James Comey setting MAGA world ablaze, and just a short time ago, Comey voluntarily spoke to the Secret Service about it. The post shells on a beach, spelling out 86 47, captioned cool shell formation on my beach walk.
Comey has since taken down that post saying he thought it was just a political message and he didn't realize it could be associated with violence. He wrote, quote, it never occurred to me, but I oppose violence of any kind.
But to Trump, who survived at least two assassination attempts, it's too little too late.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: A child knows what that meant. If you're the FBI director and you don't know what that meant, that meant assassination. And it says it loud and clear.
[22:20:01]
Now, he wasn't very competent, but he was competent enough to know what that meant. And he did it for a reason. And when you add his history to that, if he had a clean history -- he doesn't. He's a dirty cop. He's a dirty cop. And if he had a clean history, I could understand if there was a leniency, but I'm going to let them make that decision.
PHILLIP: It also means, according to Merriam-Webster, to throw out, to get rid of or to refuse service to, which I think people in the restaurant industry understand that.
But stupid post or they're going to really going to try to throw him in jail over it?
BORELLI: No, I don't think he's going to jail. But let me ask you. If Tony Soprano said, so and so is going to get whacked, does that mean that they're out of whack? Does it mean that they're going to get weed whacked? No. It means that they're going to get killed, right?
In this context, he -- PHILLIP: Well, James Comey didn't say Donald Trump is going to get 86ed.
BORELLI: No, he posted --
PHILLIP: He didn't say that either.
BORELLI: He said posted 86 47, right? 86 in this sense is a verb. 86 47, right? This is something that the New York Times, the BBC all acknowledged that could mean in context to kill someone.
So, yes, after two assassination attempts, the congressional shooting, the left lighting Teslas on fires, you have le leftist barring Jews from entering campuses, yes, I think this is okay to investigate. I think it's fine to investigate. I don't think anything will happen from it, because maybe there's no evidence. Maybe you could take him at his word, but this is definitely something that has been used as a threat against President Trump, and should be investigated. Every time --
PHILLIP: Just ask Jack Posobiec, who wrote back in 2022 86 46. He also said that Comey should be arrested for this. Matt Gaetz says back in 2024, we've now 86ed McCarthy, McDaniel, McConnell. Throw him in jail, yes.
SEAT: He should be questioned. He should undoubtedly be questioned. You know, every time Donald Trump uses the word, fight, people lose their minds. And here you have a post and we're supposed to believe he was just sharing the numbers of the day on Sesame Street. There's a meaning behind it, and he knows that there's at least a political meaning. He admitted that. I know. He admitted that. But he also is smart enough to know that before he shares that, he should probably fully vet it to understand the full meaning behind it.
I will say, though, I do want to say I didn't know what it meant to until a couple of weeks ago. I was leaving a restaurant and the person parked next to me had a sign next to their little baby on board decal. They had a sign that said 86 47, and I was like, what in the world is this?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Not the baby on board.
CARDONA: There's T-shirts that say that. So, you know, it was a stupid post. It was a stupid post. I also think that he should have known what it was going to cause. Maybe he was bored and maybe he misses the limelight. Who knows?
But here's my thing. The whole like, you know, Republican hair on fire and Donald Trump, he, you know, needs to be investigated, should go to jail, do we remember when Donald Trump said that Hillary Clinton is probably going to be taken care of by the Second Amendment people. I mean, what is that, right? That seemed to be clearly an indication that maybe someone should come and take care of her with their Second Amendment right. BABA: And not only that. He posted just last year that, that video of a truck that had Biden -- image of Biden tied up in the back of it. He's -- I mean, January 6th, I guess a lot of people memory hole, January 6th, but, I mean, he didn't, you know, inside and egg on violence, and then he pardoned these people. So, I think pardoning violent, you know, what some call insurrectionists that attacked police officers sends more of a signal than 86 47.
I used to be a waiter when we -- I used to work at IHOP. When we said 86, you know, that pancake, it didn't mean assassinate the pancake. But what I -- so what I'm really -- that's my focus is really the hypocrisy and where was this condemnation?
CARDONA: It's unbelievable.
LEON: First off, this is an incredibly humorous segment. I got to chase. I got to chase numbers now. I got to know 1981, by the way, my birthday, like we got to do -- like, this is ridiculous, first off. Second, James Comey knows better. Like that at the end of the day, hand it to your daughter and be like, hey, should I put 86 47. When you guys just said, and I just learned right now that there's merchandise being sold off of that, that has a deeper meaning. Is James Comey going to organize a group of people to kill Donald Trump? No. Do I get --
BORELLI: There's crazy people out there.
LEON: I get that, and I get it from this --
PHILLIP: I guess I'm wondering like reasonably, do we think that -- there are many crazy people out there, frankly, and you're totally right about that. Are they taking their orders from James Comey, who's a private citizen?
[22:25:01]
BORELLI: The congressional shooter, the shooter in Florida were motivated by leftist propaganda. Yes, I think that's a real thing. And by the way, does anyone think he didn't actually do it? Does anyone think he didn't do this himself, there's just shells in 86 47 on the beach right in front of James Comey's house? Does anyone not think --
BABA: I can't picture James Comey bending down and then suddenly --
BORELLI: I couldn't picture him posting a picture of it, but someone did.
BABA: I just wanted to touch on your point, you're talking about the leftist propaganda, right? I just -- it's just rich to see so much right-wing outrage over this when we've been calling out Trump echoing and Tucker Carlson verbatim rhetoric that was literally in white supremacist manifestos, right? When we -- all of that -- we see all of this
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on.
SEAT: There's a survey from a network I want to make sure I say it correctly, Network Contagion Research Institute, a survey they conducted in conjunction with Rutgers, it's on your lapel pen. And that survey showed that 55 percent of respondents that self-identify as left of center believe it is justified to mortally wound this president.
PHILLIP: What was the reading on right of center people?
SEAT: It was much, much lower.
PHILLIP: Okay. Well, what was it?
SEAT: I don't know. I'll Google it after the segment.
PHILLIP: All right.
SEAT: The point is the point is more than the majority of left center --
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, I think that we have --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Guys, we have a problem in this country of political violence. There's no question about that. But I also think that we also have a lot of people, some of whom are currently in power right now, like the FBI director, the guy who's actually in charge of the FBI right now who have posted violent things on social media. Just watch this. He was asked about it in his confirmation hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): Mr. Patel proclaimed the manhunt starts tomorrow and reposted a video depicting him taking a chainsaw to his political enemies. Is that you, Kash Patel re-Truth, reposting that at the top of that page?
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: Senator, I had nothing to do with the creation of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Okay. I'll take his word for it, that he didn't create the post, but he certainly reposted it. And I don't know, I mean, should he have gotten a call from the FBI and the Secret Service?
CARDONA: Exactly. And the fact of the matter is, you're right, Abby, we have a problem in this country, but it's also a fact that Donald Trump and all of his followers that are in power, not just the public, him, Donald Trump and some of the people in his cabinet, as you just showed, are people who do this, who talk about political violence, who have started this whole thing about political violence being okay in this country.
And so I'm not --
SEAT: If you don't think the left does that, you live under a rock.
(CROSSTALKS)
BORELLI: Without saying the word January 6th --
PHILLIP: Hold on one second.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I'll let you in just a second, Joe. Let me just --
CARDONA: Connect people who have been in office with that. Connect people who have run for office on the left. You can't.
BORELLI: I was going to say, you're now saying the words January 6th, point stipulated, tell me one time that there was rhetoric leading to a violent incident where a Democratic politician was physically nearly assassinated without mentioning January 6th.
CARDONA: Without mentioning January 6th, wow.
(CROSSTALKS)
CARDONA: Why can't we mention January 6th?
BABA: But boo for bad (ph), Joe.
(CROSSTALKS)
BORELLI: I'm not. Investigations happened, arrests were made.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me just ask --
BABA: Paul Pelosi. And Trump mocked Paul Pelosi being attacked after the violence. So, it's like, my thing is just enough with the double standard, like condemn -- if you're going to condemn this, condemn, condemn Trump when he's doing this thing.
PHILLIP: I also think that there's a question here about what is a threat of violence, what is a very stupid post, and, you know, you have the entire, apparently, Trump administration law enforcement apparatus going after this one guy who's been writing mystery novels for the last six years. It just raises some questions about where the priorities really are.
And I'm not sure that it's answered by saying, well, there's political violence. I don't know that this qualifies. There is actually political violence that should actually be investigated. And I would hope that Kash Patel is on it.
SEAT: Yes. And I just -- I don't find it outrageous that he's being questioned. Donald Trump has been questioned, Kash Patel has been questioned, others have been questioned, and a lot of folks just want to dismiss this off the bat and say, well, he shouldn't even have to answer questions. He didn't mean that it was a mistake. No, he should have to answer questions and good on him for going in voluntarily to answer the questions. It may have just been an innocent mistake, but he should have to answer to it.
CARDONA: And that's fine. But I guarantee you that Donald Trump's life is not in danger from James Comey.
SEAT: But it could be from someone who saw the post.
[22:30:00]
PHILLIP: Look, his life, literally was in danger last year. So, it is a problem. The real question is whether this post is really --
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Exactly.
PHILLIP: -- significant of anything other than stupidity. Coming up next for us, hundreds of thousands of people started the long process of naturalization each year. Would they balance on a tree log on TV to move up in the line? One producer thinks maybe, and he's pitched it to DHS. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:09]
PHILLIP: Lights, camera, citizenship. DHS is considering a reality show where immigrants compete to become Americans. The idea comes from the producer of "Duck Dynasty" and "The Biggest Loser". He is a Canadian immigrant who envisions the show as a positive love letter to America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROB WORSOFF, PRODUCER PITCHING IMMIGRANT REALITY SHOW: I'm pitching the journey. I I'm putting a face to immigration. This is a great celebration of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: DHS tells CNN they receive hundreds of television show pitches a year and, quote, " -- the show in question is in the very beginning stages of that vetting process and has not received approval or denial by staff." That is neither a confirmation nor a denial that this is actually being considered, but it seems to be somewhat real and it's a little hard to believe, I'm not going to lie.
CARDONA: As I think the only immigrant at this table, this is spectacularly insulting. And it minimizes, it demeans, it cheapens the process that for millions of people coming to this country to live a better life, this is taking all of that away.
And it not just cheapens it, but this is clearly pitched by somebody who is completely clueless as to what it takes to come to this country, leaving everything that you know behind, because you want to give your kids and your family a better life. And clearly this person, I think he's not an immigrant, he doesn't know what the process is.
PHILLIP: Well, if he says he's a Canadian immigrant.
CARDONA: Okay.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: Then he does know the process. It's a little bit different.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: A little different on the other side.
PHILLIP: It's a little bit different.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: A little different. Come on.
CARDONA: It's a little bit different from -- two of them from the other side because every single step of the way is sacrosanct for the people that are going through it. And they would never --
PHILLIP: And it's a lengthy --
CARDONA: Yes.
PHILLIP: It's an incredibly lengthy process for most people.
CARDONA: And they would never put themselves in a situation where they might say something that then is going to be looked at as not being American enough.
PHILLIP: But also, like, I -- I thought that the Trump himself and the Trump administration wanted people to understand the seriousness of coming to this country and immigrating. Why would they even consider making a game show out of it?
JOE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: Well, let's just be clear about this full statement from the administration. Quote, "This is completely false. Daily Mail reporting is an affront to journalism." And they said --
PHILLIP: Well, I just -- just to be clear.
BORELLI: They went on to say --
PHILLIP: They -- they said that about the "Daily Mail" report, then told "The New York Times" that it is one of the pitches that they are considering. It just hasn't been approved.
BORELLI: Well, I'm getting it.
PHILLIP: Yeah. BORELLI: They said they vet hundreds of pitches every year, and this -- they haven't made a decision. The -- the producer also went on to say that he pitched the Obama administration and the Biden administration. So, at some point, right, he didn't say they ignored his letter. He didn't say they ignored his phone call.
So, at some point, it's fair to say that the Biden administration and the Obama administration took a look at this and decided not to do it, which is very well, maybe, the same exact thing Donald Trump and his administration is doing, and yet we're going crazy over it.
PHILLIP: Should it be a quick denial in your view?
BORELLI: I -- mean, yeah. I guess so. I mean, I don't -- not -- not familiar with the actual idea of what they want to do, but, yeah, it sounds pretty stupid to me.
AHMED BABA, "THE INDEPENDENT" COLUMNIST: I mean, the thing is -- is that this highlights the context as it's happening within, right? If this is happening in an administration where, you know, they love immigrants and they want to show this, obviously it'd be a different context, but you have an administration that is eroding due process, trying to send, not trying, but send over 200 people to an El Salvadoran gulag, right? And refusing to -- to bring them back. You have --
BORELLI: Thankfully, for most of them who are terrorists --
(CROSSTALK)
BAB: They actually, actually, 78 percent of them are actually -- have no criminal record according to --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Wow.
BABA: So, people will know -- so, no due process.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: You're happy that they're taking away due process from people?
BORELLI: Every one of them is here illegally.
CARDONA: You're happy that you're taking away due process from people?
BORELLI: I'm just saying I'm okay with removing people and having the vetting done before they get here.
CARDONA: You realize it's in the Constitution, right?
BABA: What this is, is my parents are both Sierra Leone immigrants, right? So, I do have an immigrant connection, too. So, when they first came here, you know, they have their green card situation. Right now they're revoking green cards. They're just taking people and plugging them. I don't think they should have the right without due process for it to take a migrant, violate the constitution, violate these rights.
It's just people within the jurisdiction thereof, they try to twist that meaning now. But you shouldn't just be able to pluck them and put them in a gulag, then they want to send them to Libya, they want to send them to different places, wash their hands, these immigrants. And I think, you know --
BORELLI: In other words, just you should be clear. Illegally.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: People who are violating the law.
BABA: Undocumented -- undocumented immigrants. And -- but there are some people who were here legally ordered by judges that were here legally like Abrego Garcia who was ordered to stay here.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, well, while -- while we're having this conversation just this afternoon, the Supreme Court, issued a -- a pretty significant blow to the Trump administration. It was a 7-2 decision that basically said the Trump administration cannot use the Alien Enemies Act right now to deport anyone.
[22:40:01]
They have to wait for this case to play out in the lower courts. It says, under these circumstances, notice roughly 24 hours before removal, devoid of information about how to exercise due process rights to contest that removal surely does not pass muster.
CARDONA: Yeah.
PHILLIP: It was very clear here that, A, this Alien Enemies Act is not just something that they can decide to do. It -- it will be litigated and decided at the lower court level. And secondly, that due process is something that they are concerned about for these immigrants, including the ones who are undocumented.
MIKE LEON, "CAN WE TALK" PODCAST HOST: The fact that we have to argue about due process, Habeas Corpus, like, these are -- these are legal terms.
CARDONA: Citizenship.
LEON: These are things -- but that's to a lesser extent. But, like, Habeas Corpus is, like --
CARDONA: Oh yeah.
LEON: -- your right to defend charges against you.
CARDONA: Exactly. That's terrifying. That's terrifying. LEON: Like, stripping these things out, like, and now I've got to explain to people the legal bingo's out there --
CARDONA: Yeah.
LEON: -- like, what these terminology means. But let's go back to the overarching premise. The television show is a callous -- is a callous idea. Whoever came up with it, the producer, sorry man, that is, my dad came here from Cuba in 1960 with my family, not trying to have cameras in our face about the process.
CARDONA: Exactly. Exactly.
LEON: That's incredibly callous. So, that's, let's start there. That's the overarching premise. The other part that Joe mentioned, the administration didn't come up with this idea, so let's not chastise the administration. They didn't come up with this idea. He pitched it to several administrations.
CARDONA: That's right.
LEON: That's wrong. Like all of these administrations, all of this information should have come out that other administrations were pitched a television show idea about immigrants, because remember, Obama deported the most under his administration.
So, back to the overarching premise, like, the fact that this is even considered, the fact that we're even talking about a potential reality show, that of the immigrant plight, I live in Miami where there's so many different Venezuelans and Haitians that all have TPS status that have all come here through the legal means and scheduled appointments through the CBP app that no longer exists. And now, we're going to put them on reality television. Joe, that's what we got to be -- on the safe side of this like that's fair.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: Far for the course with how -- with how this administration --
(CROSSTALK)
LEON: But he didn't come -- but he didn't come - I just - we have to admit that he --
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: But the fact that we're even talking about it --
UNKNOWN: Right.
CARDONA: Clearly, somebody leaked it, right?
LEON: Maybe the producer did.
CARDONA: It is something -- it is part for the course for how this administration sees him as --
(CROSSTALK)
BABA: So, you guys don't like the idea of citizen apprentice? I thought that was what America voted for.
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, one of the reasons that this is so interesting is that this has been a DHS that they've wanted to kind of make a show out of this whole thing with Kristi Noem, you know, going on these ride alongs for at immigration detention. Putting on the different costumes of, you know, ICE costumes, all this stuff.
So, that's the other part of the context around it. It is interesting to me that in all the statements from DHS, they were kind of like, well, we haven't made a decision on it yet, but no, we're not going to consider something like this. The immigration is the immigration is imigration is a serious issue.
CARDONA: Yeah.
PHILLIP: We're focused on safety of the American people. It just, I'm just kind of like, why not just say that part?
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: Yeah, look. I'm -- I'm having trouble making heads and tails of this whole thing because if you look at, you know, "The Wall Street Journal", "The New York Times, "Washington Post", all those stories make it sound like it's the "Hunger Games". And the producer himself has said it's not "The Hunger Games" even though one person at the end gets naturalized and the rest are told, you know, sorry. You don't get to be an American, sucks to be you.
PHILLIP: Sounds -- yeah. Sounds like "The Hunger Games" to me.
SEAT: But -- but I did see DHS quoted else, I don't remember which story it was, but where they -- they're talking about, you know, a show that showcases America and our culture and our history to inspire civic participation. I don't think this is the way to do that. I'm all for a show that == a reality show that -- with Americans that tries to inspire civic education.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: Highlights the plight of -- of how difficult it is to become a citizen and talk about --
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: We're talking about the journey.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: That's the documentary.
(CROSSTALK) BORELLI: That would be something interesting. Maybe they're considering that. We don't know.
PHILLIP: Have you guys heard of 90-day fiance?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: OK. Coming up next, the President was wrapping up a Middle East tour by reigniting feuds with celebrities including Taylor Swift. We'll discuss that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:48:45]
PHILLIP: Tonight, a very thoughtful stream of consciousness from one of the premier musicians of our time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KID ROCK, MUSICIAN AND SINGER: We have this low birth rate in America and it all made sense to me. It just hit me right now because who's going to sleep with these ugly ass, broke, crazy, deranged, tedious liberal women? I mean, you look at these rallies, it's like a bunch of women that no guy wants to sleep with and a bunch of dudes that want to sleep with each other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: When it comes to women, the President also taking time out of his Middle East trip to post, has anyone noticed that since I said I hate Taylor Swift, she's no longer hot? What does he mean by hot?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: This is the question that I have.
LEON: Can I quote from the book of Kid Rock, please? "Bar with the bar, the bang the bangs, Diggy Diggy. Diggy said a boogie said ups up the boogie.
CARDONA: Oh, my.
UNKNOWN: Now it all makes sense.
LEON: He wrote that. He wrote all that quotes on paper. They went in the studio, recorded that. And now he's going to tell us, he was like --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: And you're repeating it.
LEON: Yeah. I'm repeating it. I mean, Kid Rock's show to you, but the album is really American Badass is actually a really good album. But still, the fact that we are covering Kid Rock's --
[22:50:01]
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: And then, look, I'll tell you.
CARDONA: Talking about Taylor Swift.
SEAT: I -- like, I'm not going to play the -- this is what he meant game, but when I saw that no. No. But I'm not. When I saw it --
PHILLIP: Which one? Trump or Kid Rock?
SEAT: Oh, not Kid Rock. I don't know what I said but -- Trump. So, when I saw the - the post, my first thought was not a synonym for attractiveness. I thought he was talking about her popularity, right? Because she's not at this moment top of mind or tip of the tongue like she was during "The Eras Tour".
PHILLIP: Wait a second.
SEAT: But in terms of like, she's not being mentioned in the media 24- 7.
PHILLIP: Okay. She's taking a little break after having the highest closings ever. And so, now, she's --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: She probably has enough money to buy an island.
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: Between her and her fans, and he's going to fail.
CARDONA: Because he said he hated her. That's why.
PHILLIP: I mean, I, yeah.
BABA: I just don't know about that one. This man was just in The Middle East just cashing in, getting -- getting Trump Tower deals, getting two billion.
CARDONA: Yeah.
BABA: And through his -- through his crypto company, and then he's on the flight back, or he's -- he's thinking about Taylor Swift. How did that get prompted? Who -- was he just talking to somebody, he was like, you know what, I'm just going to send -- about Taylor Swift?
PHILLIP: He might have been watching some TV. I think he might have been watching some TV.
CARDONA: Because look at the headlines today, right? The GOP big beautiful bill was completely knocked out. Consumer confidence is at a record low. Moody's downgraded The U.S. credit.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: This was a blatantly political move.
CARDONA: These are horrific headlines.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: The whole numbers of money just went up.
CARDONA: So, maybe this is an attempt to try to get people to distract from all of the horrific --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That's a lot -- I have to say, that's a lot of four D chess. But I -- I don't want to -- this second to pass by without noting that Trump also had some smoke for Bruce Springsteen, as well. He says, "he highly overrated Bruce Springsteen goes to a foreign country to speak badly about the President of The United States.
Never liked him, never liked his music and the radical left politics, and he is not a talented guy, just pushy, obnoxious jerk who fervently supported crooked Joe Biden." "He's dumb as a rock," he says, "dried out prune of a rock". I actually, like -- 50 words that I did not read.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: I have never agreed with Donald Trump more than in that tweet. I should get that tattooed on my bicep. I can't stand Bruce Springsteen. I don't like his music. He is talented, a talentless, rather. And the fact that he engages in politics and I got -- I got news for Bruce Springsteen, right? Mr. New Jersey?
Paul came out this week showing that Donald Trump is more popular in New Jersey than Democratic governor Phil Murphy. So, even in his home state where he is technically somewhat influential, he's got a rest stop named after him. Right? Even though I like the Jon Bon Jovi rest stop a little better. But he --he is losing his home state.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Why does Bruce -- why does Bruce not get to talk about politics?
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: You know, nobody talks about it. No one's saying it.
BABA: The big point that came to mind to me when I saw Bruce Springsteen talking and made me think of Robert De Niro's speech, you just -- you were just given. Remember that after the election, there was this whole idea that MAGA had won some cultural mandate, that we were all now going to be in this new conservative right wing, you know, 1950s era, and I just think that Trump has misread his mandate, overreached, to the point where now we're seeing, this -- this groundswell, this grassroots support that's popping up for Democrats and people against him.
So, basically, my main point is, I think with his overreach, his authoritarian overreach, his implementation of Project 2025, with all of this insane stuff he's doing, he's giving people like Bruce Greenstein, Robert De Niro, people, a license to feel they can speak out.
PHILLIP: Okay, but I will say this about -- about the celebrities. I don't know that anybody cares about these things for real. I mean, and Democrats need to grapple with this because the over reliance on celebrity opinion is a real problem.
(CROSSTALK)
LEON: Can I just give an example because one of my friends is watching this is an Atlanta based manager of some entertainers down there, and the Harris campaign had asked them to do some performance down in Georgia and that was it. They were like, yo, we can do more. And he was, and they were like, no, no, no, we only need that.
So, you're right, like, they'll embrace the celebrity culture for a little bit, but then when the celebrities actually want to impart, hey, maybe we should do this, this is how we could do voter outreach, there's no conversion on the voter action.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLP: I was just going to say Donald Trump apparently does care.
CARDONA: The good, the good news is, the good news is that Democrats right now, what they're using is stories from real people, real people who are going to be knocked off Medicaid, 14 million people knocked off Medicaid because of what Republicans are doing in Congress right now, and you are seeing the effect of that across the board, which is why a lot of these Republicans don't even want to have town halls because people are pissed off.
The same voters have voted for them and they're being betrayed by this president and by Republicans because they are screwing the same working class, middle class families and voters that -- that trusted him to do what they, what --
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: I think they're tired of being lectured to by these celebrities, to your point. I mean, Springsteen supported John Kerry, Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton, they all lost, so clearly his endorsement means a lot.
[22:55:04] And what I wanted to say earlier about Taylor Swift, like her popularity transcends politics. She gets involved. She, you know, put -- put her politics out there. I have friends who are so far right, conservative right on the spectrum that they probably fall off the spectrum, and they have traveled overseas to see her perform. They trade bracelets. They clown for tickets. They don't care about her politics.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: It's not bizarre anymore, Pete.
PHILLIP: Which is -- why is why it's so bizarre that Trump then decides out of the blue to just go to --
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, everyone. Thank you very much for joining us. Coming up next, singer Cassie Ventura finished up her testimony today in the Diddy trial facing tough questioning by Combs' lawyers. Laura Coates has all of these details. That's just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
