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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Puts Iran on Notice, Buys Himself Time on Strike Decision; Trump Delays Iran Strike Decision After Bannon Visit; Sources Say, Trump's Intel Chief is Off-Message and Out of Favor. Dodgers Claim ICE Denied Entry To Immigrants; New Movie "Sinners" Leaves Its Viewers A Powerful Message. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 19, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
The breaking news tonight, President Trump's hugely consequential decision on whether the U.S. military will join the fight between Israel and Iran, and it's coming sometime in the next two weeks, he says.
Today, the White House delivered a message on behalf of the president outlining the new deadline. Trump says the window will allow for negotiations to proceed, which is interesting, because just this week, we heard him say this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: They should have done the deal. I told them do the deal. So, I don't know, I'm not too much in a mood to negotiate.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I have a message directly from the president, and I quote, based on the fact that there's a substantial chance of negotiations that may or may not take place with Iran in the near future, I will make my decision whether or not to go within the next two weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, what could be driving the president's decision-making right now? Just before the White House announced the new timeline, MAGA firebrand and Trump's former strategist Steve Bannon was spotted at the White House. He's been a vocal opponent of potential U.S. strikes on Iran. Meantime, we're monitoring the skies over Israel and the fighting there continues with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowing that Israel will strike all of Iran's nuclear facilities.
Anderson Cooper is on the ground in Tel Aviv for us with much more. Anderson, catch us up on what's been happening.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Abby, there have been two surprises today for people in Israel, an early morning barrage of missiles not under cover of darkness, but just after 7:00 A.M. Thursday morning.
Now, as you know, a hospital was hit as well as an apartment building, but no casualties. The other surprise was the announcement of the White House, President Trump's decision to make a decision about the U.S. involvement in a strike on Iran within two weeks. Many Israelis certainly support the ongoing operations against Iranian nuclear facilities and military targets. And they would like to see the U.S. take a role in destroying Iran's Fordow facility.
And they were certainly surprised among many here by of the delay by President Trump in making a decision, but you didn't hear that surprise publicly expressed from Israeli officials. It's important to remember that Israel has been planning this action for a long time. Step by step, they have degraded or destroyed the capabilities of Iran's proxy forces to respond to an attack. They severely weakened Hezbollah and Lebanon, Hamas as well. You'll remember they assassinated a Hamas official in Iranian guest house. They systematically destroyed Syria's air defense systems months ago, which has allowed Israeli jets a safe passage to Iranian airspace. And they continue to target at will Iran's air defenses.
So, it's safe to say that Israel has planned out how to attack Iran's nuclear facilities even without direct U.S. participation in an attack. How they would go about destroying the hardened Fordow facility, that's not known. It's not something they'll publicly discuss. But if they had to do it without the United States, they've certainly looked into many different ways of doing it.
For now, they continue air operations in the skies over Iran, and there's been no missile attack on Israel since early this morning. Abby?
PHILLIP: Anderson, thank you very much for that. Stay safe.
If President Trump's two week deadline sounds familiar to you, well, that's because we have definitely heard it all before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'll let you know in about two weeks, within two weeks.
I could answer that question better in two weeks.
And I'll do this at some point over the next two weeks.
I'll announce it over the next two weeks.
You'll know it in about two weeks.
It'll be out in about less than two weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Two weeks, we will be watching, just like we were watching for that healthcare plan. Reena Ninan is at the table with us for this conversation. Reena our colleague, former Republican Representative Adam Kinzinger, put it this way. He says, this is Trump's taco moment. Regardless of your opinion on the Iran strike, Trump is showing a case of chicken out so far. Every time he considers action, he backs down.
Remember, after Iran attacked us troops, shot down $200 million, plane, et cetera, as we've always said, talks big, but scared to death, taco. Taco is what they called the Trump trade on Wall Street over tariffs.
[22:05:00]
REENA NINAN, FOREIGN AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think the fact that you saw Steve Bannon there at the White House tells you a little something today, he's not afraid to bring people into the room who may disagree with him at the moment. I think any other president would've been like that's loud clatter, we don't need to worry about it.
You know, in 2019, they took out -- the Iranians took out a U.S. surveillance drone, and the president had authorized a strike, and then he backed away from that. So, he is a person who prides himself with excelling at brinkmanship, but we've also learned the lessons of Iraq, Abby. I was on the ground in Iraq where Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, said we were going to be greeted with flowers and candy. That didn't happen.
PHILLIP: Yes, absolutely not. Van?
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think this is an important moment because I don't think people on the left have thought seriously enough about what if Iran does get the bomb? That's a different world than most of us have thought about as progressives. In other words, Iran is -- when I say death to America, death to Israel, death to all the Jews, one of those should offend you. At least one should offend you. And their treatment of women and gays is horrific. And if they get a bomb, they're active.
North Korea's, they've got a bomb, but they kind of just sit around and fire stuff in the ocean and do weird stuff. Iran is actively destabilizing Africa, Boko Haram, et cetera. So, I don't know what to do but I would like to see progressives take more seriously the threat here of the bomb. I don't know if Trump should be dropping bunker busters, what he should be doing, but progressives should be taking this a lot more seriously.
PHILLIP: And that is the decision that he faces. I mean, I think everybody, I think, is taking this seriously. The question is, is the attack going to be the right choice in this moment? And it seems that even Trump just now has decided right now it's not. He actually wants to get back to the negotiating table. I mean, he could have kept the meeting that was on the schedule for Sunday, but instead, here we are.
He's being swayed clearly, based on what we're talking about, but he also seems to be very reticent to go here. BEN FERGUSON, :HOST, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: Look, I think he's listening to a lot of different voices and that's saying that everyone should encourage. You want the present to make an educated decision before he makes it. And there's a lot that's come to the table in the last few hours. You've got the Strait of Hormuz and you've got the fact that you've got 25 percent of the oil every day coming through there, 20 percent of natural gas. There are a lot of people saying, hey, there's a lot of boats there. You probably want to get them out in case they do try to close it. So, that's number one.
Number two, you also have to make sure that your American installations are safe and you're prepared there. So, this gives us more time as well to make that decision. It gives more time for there to be a negotiation. I think that's also a good thing. But at the end of the day, the president, I think, has been very clear on one issue. You cannot have a nuclear Iran. He's been saying it over and over again for more than a decade. He's not wavering on that.
And Kinzinger, I mean, some people are just playing politics here, I'm sorry. To say the guy's a coward or he is weak, he took out Soleimani, for goodness sakes. And I'm pretty sure guys like Kinzinger were saying, oh, he is going to start World War III. So, like stop playing politics and look at the reality. The president is bringing guys like Bannon, who have a very different viewpoint than the president on this? I don't think it's a bad thing.
PHILLIP: I guess I don't -- frankly, I don't agree that Bannon has a different viewpoint as Trump on this. Trump ran on what Bannon is reminding him of. I mean, at the end of the day, if anybody has changed, it's Trump in the last six months because he ran on peace, on staying out of wars, on not starting a new war in the Middle East. And as far as I can tell, Bannon and others are trying to just remind him of that fact.
T.W. ARRIGHI, VICE PRESIDENT, PUSH DIGITAL GROUP: I completely disagree. First of all, I don't think we've ever had an a president who has run on isolation platform and actually stayed isolationists. But I would remind you --
PHILLIP: Sure. But you can't disagree that he ran on that platform.
ARRIGHI: Sure. But there -- by the way, there is --
PHILLIP: It may even change, but he definitely ran on that platform.
ARRIGHI: Hold on a second. I agree. But there is no -- if there is no mission creep, and the goal is to take out nuclear facilities, then that is a justified strike that will not lead to ground troops, that will not lead to regime change, so long as there's no mission creep.
And I want to make one other point here. A great thing that Israel did is they have taken out Iran's ability to produce weaponry en masse. We talk about Iran as the greatest global sponsor of terrorism. They fund proxies all over the world. 600-plus men and women of the United States military died in Iraq due to Iranian weaponry. Israel being able to take out that ability to make new weapons and spread them across the region is a huge win.
I would just add one more point. If you look to Trump's first term, you'll get lessons, as you just mentioned of Soleimani. I would also remind you of eliminating ISIS. I would also remind you of the 500 dead Russian troops in Syria when Putin disobeyed the warnings of Trump and went ahead with some of his incursions. Trump makes smart decisions after much deliberation.
FERGUSON: It's ten years of this doctrine. I mean, I go back to the ten-year doctrine of Donald Trump. He has said Iran cannot get a nuclear weapon. I don't know why anyone thinks that's changing. And I also think he's been very clear on this.
[22:10:04]
He's not in favor of going into Iraq or Afghanistan the way that that happened. He's saying, I'm not doing that in Iran. Like everyone that acts like he's going to do that is absurd.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Sometimes the mission creep -- just to be clear, sometimes the mission creep that you talk about is not your choice. Sometimes the mission creep happens even when you don't want it to.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I think that's the point I want to make, two things. I think people are questioning the way Donald Trump will make these decisions because of his behavior of making previous decisions, at least just in the last 100 days. So, I can't just extract how he's handled tariffs, how he's handled certain things. That's hard for me to do. But if we just -- if we want to live in a world where we could dream and we can do that, let's just then talk about this issue.
I don't think anybody wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon. I think that progressives -- I think that's pretty like standard policy for Americans. We don't want that kind of --
FERGUSON: And pulling back that up as well.
ALLISON: Right. But I think the question is the collateral consequences if we strike. I don't see a world where we strike and we take and they don't come back at us.
NINAN: I don't think the collateral consequences -- I agree, it's nobody is talking about, you throw the mother of all bombs into that facility and what happens is to take out a couple tunnels. We don't have solid proof of what it's going to do, then what? Nobody talks about in the Middle East the then what.
ALLISON: Yes.
NINAN: It lasted ten years in a Iraq.
ALLISON: Yes. NINAN: We weren't greeted with flowers and candy. We were greeted with an insurgency and a raging. And then also in the 50s, Mosaddegh, you know, the CIA tried to overthrow. If we are talking about regime change, we're delusional to think that's going to happen. We're delusional.
PHILLIP: We are not talking -- maybe we are not talking about it. But Netanyahu's talking about -- Netanyahu's talking about it actively. Israeli officials are talking about it actively. They have set this up such that Trump is backed into a corner, actually.
FERGUSON: I disagree.
PHILLIP: That's part of what's happening here, is that the strike went down last week, whether he liked it or not. And now he has a decision to make that is not really a great set of decisions that I think we can all agree on.
JONES: Look, here's what I would say. Number one, I don't think going into the country with boots on the ground is what anybody's talking about. You're correct, people can get sucked into stuff. Here's the nightmare scenario for the people who want to bomb. You say, look, this facility is -- it's so hardened that no matter what Israel does by itself, you'll still be able to make bombs there. The only person with a bomb big enough to blow it up is Trump. So, please, Trump, drop that bomb.
Now, in success, no longer can you make a nuclear weapon there, but then what happens? The question you have to ask is, will Iran then say, okay, you dropped this bomb on us, we are now going to start unleashing terror proxies around the world. We're going to start shooting Americans, we're going to start shooting. And then in that world, Trump's not going to say nothing and do nothing.
NINAN: The price of oil, the price of oil --
JONES: So, what I'm saying is there for people like myself who think, I don't want Iran to get a bomb. I don't see the other way for him not to get a bomb with this. Somebody's got to blow this thing up. I think people have to take seriously, what happens if Iran retaliates?
But let me say this --
PHILLIP: There's reason diplomacy, frankly, was what Trump a week and a few days ago preferred. That's what he wanted. He had set a date for that upcoming Sunday to -- right, it certainly could be, but my point is that he understands that at the end of the day, the real solution is a deal. That's why he wanted to get a deal in the first place. But now he's put military action on the table. And if he doesn't do something, then, yes, (INAUDIBLE) that he's chickened out.
FERGUSON: The best case scenario, there's a deal. But I also think you got to look at what Iran continues to say. And Iran is saying, we don't want a deal. We don't want to work with anybody. We want to -- death to Israel, death to America, and they're ratcheting it up. They're not dialing it down. And, I mean, if you think about it right now, look at the leadership that's been hit by Israel in Iran. You would think at some point they would've woken up the leadership like, okay, like, hey, we're extremely vulnerable. We have no power over our own skies. They control us from the air. We are sitting ducks everywhere we are and this is a problem. Maybe we should dial it back. I think that's part of the leverage that Donald Trump say, okay, two weeks is not a bad thing.
ARRIGHI: That's why the two weeks is important.
FERGUSON: Exactly.
ARRIGHI: You know, like the numbers in the Bible, two weeks is symbolic. It means not imminent, but soon. The fact of the matter is -- it's true. It is true. But, look, if two weeks gives him flexibility to get more access from INDOPACOM into the region. Number two, net. Yahoo has told him, according to reporting, that Israel has a few tricks up their sleeve to get to Fordow, commandos, electrical attacks, et cetera, et cetera. He's going to use this probably his cover to put more pressure on Iran, but also let Israel do their thing. And, lastly, they're meeting with European counterparts, the Iranians are. They get squirrely during that meeting.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: All right. Let's hit pause on this conversation. We have much more ahead. Reena Ninan, thank you very much for all of that.
Up next, there are two of the most relevant people in this Iran decision, but is the Fox News cabinet falling out of favor with Donald Trump?
[22:15:02]
Plus, an unfolding story tonight, the Dodgers say that they've turned away ICE agents at their stadium in Los Angeles. Is the Trump administration's fear factor hitting sports now?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, as Donald Trump steers one of his biggest decisions of his second term, two highly visible members of his inner circle appear to be on the outside. Sources are telling CNN that the director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, who testified to Congress in March that Iran was not actively pursuing a nuclear weapon, is off- message and out of favor with this president.
[22:20:02]
And tonight, we're also learning that Trump has principally relied on CIA Director John Ratcliffe and Joint Chiefs Chairman Dan Caine in meetings to discuss his options in the Middle East, leading many to worry about Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and his standing.
Julie Roginsky joins us now at the table. Julie, it is perplexing that the DNI, who has very little experience in doing a job like this, is now suddenly out of favor, despite that being clear about her based on her resume from the very beginning.
JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I think we are not surprised, but also I'm kind of relieved that she doesn't have a seat at the table because she is inexperienced, Pete Hegseth is inexperienced, to the extent that he doesn't have a seat at the table, that's all to the good as well. If he's relying on John Ratcliffe, who has experience, and relying on the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who maybe was not particularly qualified to be the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but certainly still a long time --
PHILLIP: Still a general.
ROGINSKY: Still a general and a long time military guy, I'd rather have people like that in the president's ear than somebody like Tulsi Gabbard, who truly has absolutely no experience and should never have had the job in the first place.
PHILLIP: Let me play this video that she posted a couple days ago that -- this is -- well, I got to play it because it's like, you got to see it to believe it. And this is one of the reasons I think that some folks around Trump, including Trump himself, are like, what is going on here? Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TULSI GABBARD, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: A single nuclear weapon today could kill millions in just minutes. Just one of these nuclear bombs would vaporize everything at its core, people, buildings, life itself.
As we stand here today closer to the brink of nuclear annihilation than ever before, political elite and warmongers are carelessly fomenting fear and tensions between nuclear powers.
So, it's up to us, the people, to speak up and demand an end to this madness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Ben, that video was viewed in the White House as her trying to say to the president, you're being steered wrong here. And the quote from a White House adviser was, when the president thinks you're off-message, he doesn't watch you in the room. So she's out.
FERGUSON: This is the oldest game in Washington. I know all three of the people that you just talked about. John Ratcliffe and I are dear friends. I also know Tulsi and I also know Pete. Like the idea that like two are out of favor and one is in is -- I'm sorry, it's not actually accurate.
PHILLIP: Are you saying that she's in favor of it right now?
FERGUSON: What I'm saying is this. I think the president brings in other people all the time to get different viewpoints. I was there the day before the State of the Union 2019, because he wanted to talk about messaging right before the State of the Union. I'm sure I disagreed with somebody. Does that mean that person was out of favor that helped writing the speech? I would assume no.
And so my point is this. I think they're also going to be there days and weeks from now, months from now. I think this is the classic game in Washington. I was reading James Baker's book on the plane and it's the same story. It's everyone in Washington wants to have an insider, oh, I heard he's out, or she's out, or they're not listening to him. I'm sorry. This is a big decision. A lot of people are coming into the room.
And I don't -- especially the -- Hegseth is not out. Let me say this for sure.
PHILLIP: Yes, go ahead.
FERGUSON: Pete is not out. Like the idea that Pete doesn't have a voice in this is laughable. Like that might be the worst reporting I've ever seen in my entire life.
PHILLIP: Look, I agree that, look, palace intrigue is definitely a Washington thing for sure, but I covered the first Trump administration. There were definitely people who were out, okay? And when they were out, they -- yes. But when they were out, they were out.
And, look, I mean, I think there are some real questions because Tulsi Gabbard has been excluded, particularly from an important Camp David meeting on this topic, that there are questions about whether he trusts her judgment on this particular issue.
JONES: I don't know if Trump does or not, and I know Tulsi very well. I know her dad. We did legislation together years ago. Her dad's like a legislator in Hawaii. The video's just weird. It's just weird. And when you start doing weird stuff that's not pre-cleared, most people, when you're in a White House environment, if you do something like that, you get it pre-cleared, you run up the flagpole, you're letting know people, if you do something like, that kind of looks bizarro and you drop it on the president, and the president wasn't -- like the -- nobody knew, the chief of staff, I just don't think that's the right way for her to proceed.
If she wants to influence the president, she has his ear, she has his confidence, she has his number, don't drop YouTube videos trying to move the president of the United States. It's just too bizarre.
(CROSSTALKS)
ALLISON: She's not Tucker Carlson and she's not Ted Cruz. And so they can do what they want on their podcast. And she is in the White House. Yes, she is the DNI like to put that video out is about nuclear weapons, I could see even --
JONES: Unless it was pre-cleared.
ALLISON: Unless it was pre-cleared, which it doesn't sound like it was.
PHILLIP: I even mentioned that the beginning of the video is about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and it goes into great, graphic detail about those attacks. And, look, I mean, again, it was a lengthy video and it's an odd thing for someone to do it inside the White House.
ALLISON: This is like the ends and outs. You would know better who's on the cool kids table than I would in that Trump administration.
[22:25:02]
But when you are not included in meetings where classified information is shared, you are out. Maybe if not because they share it on -- let me finish. Maybe it's different because they share confidential information on Signal channels. So, maybe it doesn't work that way for this White House.
FERGUSON: But if you want to go cheap shot and not have a real conversation, you can do that.
ALLISON: No, but that's cheap. That's facts. They did it. They sent war plans on signal. Don't say --
FERGUSON: I'll give you a perfect example.
ALLISON: So, that it's not a cheap shot. That's a fact.
FERGUSON: The other day Pete Hegseth was out of the country.
PHILLIP: Okay, go ahead.
FERGUSON: Pete was out of the country. And then there was a report that he was out of an important meeting. He was at D-Day, which he goes to every year. And so my point is -- but my point is this. The idea that like, well, Tulsi missed a meeting, okay, the first question I would ask is, where was she that day? Pete missed a meeting, they said, and then someone was like, oh, he missed a meeting. I'm like, no, he was at D-Day. He was literally at the D-Day celebration.
ALLISON: I think he might be right on that. That's his job.
JONES: I don't know the relationship between Trump and Tulsi, and I agree with you, sometimes people go up or down, people miss a meeting. Who knows? But what I do want to say is Tulsi is smart.
FERGUSON: Yes.
JONES: Tulsi is somebody who has a point of view, and it's an important point of view. It's not my point view. It's important. All I'm saying is that's such an unusual way to proceed, that if it doesn't go well, I hope that she says, okay, let's meet -- I'm not going to do that again.
PHILLIP: A quick last word.
ARRIGHI: Yes. Just a quick note, according to Tulsi Gabbard, she was on National Guard duty while the Camp David meeting was happening. So, if that is accurate, then that's question completely excusable. But, yes, I agree, I don't know the ins and outs of who's at the table now, but I do know Donald Trump likes knowledgeable people with information about the theater who are perceived as tough. I think too in the first administration, Mike Pompeo lasting all four years when a lot of people tried to push him out. Why? Because he was smart, armed with facts, knew the theaters he was talking about and say that.
PHILLIP: Speaking of somebody who's on the outs, Mike Pompeo is now, for now, on the out.
Coming up next for us, are ICE agents now targeting sports stadiums? The dust up tonight between the Los Angeles Dodgers and Homeland Security.
Plus, the President marks Juneteenth by complaining that America has too many holidays. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Right now, it's the Dodgers versus the Padres on the field. But just hours ago, it was the Dodgers versus ICE in the parking lot. So, what exactly happened? Well, the team claimed it denied entry to immigration agents. It says we're trying to access the area. You can see here in this video, unmarked vehicles and what appears to be law enforcement standing outside.
Now DHS says, yes, customs and border protection vehicles were there briefly, but it was not related to any operation. So, it just so happens the Dodgers were set to announce plans today to help immigration -- immigrant communities in L.A. And just days ago, a Latin pop singer, Nezza, performed the national anthem in Spanish before the Dodgers game despite the team's objections.
This has turned into one of those cases of, is the Trump administration trying to send a message here? And if they are, you know, are the Dodgers right? Are they right to push back? Van?
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, they are. And again, I'm -- I'm raising, kids in Los Angeles, and I think it's really important people understand, there's a feeling of real terror for just everyday people in Los Angeles. I think Trump came in saying, hey, I'm going to get rid of, like, the gang members, the terrible people who are killing everybody and raping everybody. It turns out there's not that many immigrants who are doing that.
So, if you're going to do mass immigration, you got to go after nannies in the park with -- with their -- with children, which is what's happening. And so, there's really bad stuff happening to people who are working in restaurants, people who are beloved in communities, that is not what Trump ran on. And so, there is a -- feeling. If you go to the -- the Haitian part of -- of L.A., there's nobody on the streets. People are literally afraid, just regular people afraid to go outside. And so, I think that, you know, when you -- now you're going to go
into the stadium, I think LA people are just trying to draw a line. If you want to enforce the law, start with the -- with the terrible people. Don't start with nannies. Don't start with -- with day laborers. Don't start with people who are actually making the city work, and I think it's a bridge too far.
T.W. ARRIGHI, VICE PRESIDENT, PUSH DIGITAL GROUP: I want to take a step back here, and I want to know why the Dodgers are getting involved with law enforcement. If ICE is telling the truth, if DHS is telling the truth, they were just there as a staging area briefly, why are they jumping out and saying, oh, we stopped ICE? This is what I'm worried about.
JONES: What do you think?
ARRIGHI: You know, there is -- we talk about political violence as bad. Violence against law enforcement bad. And I agree with all of it. Everything that's been said from January 6th on down. Agreed 100 percent.
But when it comes to ICE, there -- and pushback against people harassing ICE, people going and seeking out ICE to make a viral video or to get clout, I feel like they also deserve protection. They're enforcing the law of this country and I feel like they have become a sort of scapegoat for a policy on the books of the government that people don't like, and that's bothersome to me.
PHILLIP: Let me -- let me -- before you jump in, I just want to give you an update because we just got some breaking news that an appeals court is now allowing Trump to continue having control of the California National Guard. This is an offshoot of that situation where there were riots and confrontations with law enforcement, and Trump said I'm going to take over the National Guard and send them in.
[22:35:05]
Now, they're being able to do that after some litigation over the last week and a half. But, look, your --one of the reasons I mean, this is a connected story. You know, you're talking about these ICE agents and DHS agents and all of these folks who are carrying out these raids. The masks have been an issue.
ARRIGHI: Why?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: The -- well, I'm just - I'm just stating -- I'm just stating that, that for people, they're seeing these men showing up in their communities in hats and in black -- black masks covering everything but their eyes. And we've had deportation raids for many a decade in this country. President Obama --
JONES: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: -- the administration did it to -- to the tune of millions, and yet we did not see that.
BEN FERGUSON, "THE BEN FERGUSON" HOST: Because -- here's why. You didn't have the left when -- when -- who you worked for. Barack Obama was doing this, deporting a lot of people. You didn't have the left saying we're going to doxx you and your family, we're going to put your lives at risk, and we're going to put your addresses on the internet.
We're going to go to your house and livestream, and we're going to put your kids' Instagram on social media out there saying you're a bad guy. That wasn't happening when Barack Obama was doing it because now Donald Trump's doing it, therefore, let's go after ICE.
(CROSSTALK)
JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCARTIC STRATEGIST: You're saying -- you're saying all law enforcement, just because they're afraid of being doxxed, if the NYPD today has some sort of protest against it, they now have to start wearing uniforms and not any insignia on them? Look, I was at -- I was at - let me tell you this.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: That's -- that's not what I'm saying at all. The guys in the law enforcement -- that's not what I'm saying. Let me finish this because, like, when you come from a law enforcement family and you see these guys -- and you see these guys that come out there and they risk their lives and they're doing their job, and then you have like, I'm sorry with the Dodgers. Like, the Dodgers thing makes me mad because I think they were making a point probably to sell tickets and to get fanfare behind them.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I -- I talked to the mayor today. That's not true. But go ahead.
FERGUSON: So, you think that the Dodgers didn't do that thinking the P.R. aspect of it was, we're going to stand up to ICE and then we're going to have more people that like us in the legal immigrant community or those that have friends who leave them in the community.
JONES: I think it's going to take up a lot of space. Can you let people talk?
FERGUSON: I just started talking a second ago. I just started talking.
PHILLIP: Hold on. It was -- it was not a second ago, but look. One thing I just want to note like, you know, when there are judges who rule against the Trump administration and conservative, you know, policies, people doxx them, they doxx their family members, they call them evil and activists.
FERGUSON: Supreme Court justices were doxxed. Yeah.
PHILLIP: Yeah. Well, yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, I guess my point is that, that is happening to people who are not even in law enforcement. They're just people in in black robes and not on a -- on a bench.
JONES: And Democratic lawmakers getting shot.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Nobody says anything about it.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's all -- all of it's bad.
PHILLIP: All of it's bad, but I also think look, again, ICE has been detaining and deporting people in this country for a long time. okay? The difference is not just this moment, it is also the tactics.
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: Okay? It is -- it is the people that they are going after. They're -- they're taking women and -- and moms at their hearing. The way they've been called to test to -- to appear for their immigration proceedings.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But -- but they're at their hearing. They're being told to come, and then they are detaining them in the hallways. They're breaking the glass windows of cars. I'm -- I'm just telling you, it's the tactics that is -- that is changing the way people are seeing it.
FERGUSON: American citizens go to court all the time and get arrested and taken away from their kids, and no one is acting like this is an injustice.
UNKNOWN: I think --
JONES: I don't think I understand what -- what -- and go ahead. I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: But it happens every day.
ONES: It's not -- it's not true.
FERGUSON: The only people in the prison population --
(CROSSTALK) ALLISON: -- and when it does, and when it does --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- how many moms and dads --
ALLISON: -- have you ever known somebody that has -- that is devastating.
PHILLIP: Van, Van go ahead.
ALLISON: It's terrible. It's not --
FERGUSON: Then don't break the law. Don't break the law. Self-deport.
ALLISON: It's not -- it's homicide into the child.
ROGINSKY: Who's breaking the law?
FERGUSON: The people that are here illegally.
ROGINSKY: No. I'm sorry. No. Let me just --
(CROSSTALK)
ROGINSKY: There are plenty of people here who are here legally.
UNKNOWN: Legal status.
ROGINSKY: Who had legal status.
ALLISON: Yes.
ROGINSKY: Who are showing up to -- to basically to renew their legal status.
ALLISON: Yes.
ROGINSKY: Or to -- or to check-in as the rules dictated and they are getting deported.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
ROGINSKY: And they're getting arrested. That is not right. These people have the right to be here.
ALLISON: There are people living in hiding right now. I know them. They are in hiding that have visas that are here legally because they are afraid of the tactics of ICE. These are not -- these are not fairy tales. These are not fairy tales.
JONES: See, we live in two different worlds. In the world you live in, the main thing that's happening is that ICE people are being mistreated, and I didn't even know as much about it as you told me today, so I'm learning. In the world I live in, the rule followers, the people who have legal status, who are trying to do what they're told, are also getting grabbed --
ALLISON: Yes.
JONES: -- in ways that would shock you and are being deported. That's why you're having the alarm. So, you're just saying, oh, somebody's breaking the law and they should get arrested. That is -- this is -- if that's what we're talking about, there's no conversation. We're talking about the rule followers.
FERGUSON: And you're acting like the majority of the people being arrested.
JONES: Yeah --
FERGUSON: And I -- I hold on. Wait.
JONES: Go ahead.
FERGUSON: It's not the majority have legal status.
JONES: Well --
FERGUSON: That's not true. That is misinformation.
JONES: Hold on a second. First of all -- look.
FERGUSON: Or a lie. However you want to describe it.
JONES: Well, the majority of ICE people are not getting doxxed and but what I'm saying is there are people -- I've come to L.A.
[22:40:00]
There are people who --
FERGUSON: I live in Houston. I see a ton of illegal immigrants. They're not hard to find.
JONES: They are -- they are, they are dog piling us in L.A. and you have nannies who are literally out there with children --
ALLISON: Yeah.
JONES: -- being swarmed by people with masks, taken away. These people have legal status and the children are traumatized. That's what's happening and people are very upset about it.
FERGUSON: And I'm saying this. Let me say this.
JONES: Yeah. With absolutely legal status.
FERGUSON: Number one, it's not the majority. But number two, it's this. I go back to law and order. You either have law and order or you don't.
JONES: That's my point. By the -- FERGUSON: And when you let it --
JONES: These are the rule followers.
FERGUSON: Hold on. If you want to be mad at somebody, you should be mad at Joe Biden for letting in millions --
UNKNOWN: Here we go.
FERGUSON: Who let them in? Who let them in?
ROGINSKY: Can I ask you a question?
FERGUSON: No, hold on. If you're going back to trauma, I'm -- then -- then giving someone false hope that you could come to America and stay here --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Blame your own party for this.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGINSKY: Can I ask you a question?
FERGUSON: Sure.
ROGINSKY: Because President Trump just said that he doesn't want people going after undocumented immigrants on farms, and in the hospitality industry, right? The very people that you say are lawbreakers, he's giving amnesty to because --
FERGUSON: He reversed that. He reversed it.
ROGINSKY: He reversed it but he said it, right? Why? Why? Why are some people who are here illegally according to you, why should they stay here? Because Donald Trump said.
FERGUSON: He, A, he reversed it but B --
(CROSSTALK)
ROGINSKY: But why would he say it in the in the first place? Why would he say it?
FERGUSON: Again, my -- I go back to a very simple issue. I don't care if you're an American citizen or if you're an illegal immigrant. If you are breaking in a law in this country, you should be arrested if you were to be arrested for breaking that law. And if you came here illegally, then you should self deport or live in at work.
ROGINSKY: Why did -- why did he think -- until he got pushed back from his base, why did he think some people deserved to stay here and other didn't?
FERGUSON: I -- I don't think you got the push back you're describing. ROGINSKY: But why did you reverse yourself?
FERGUSON: The majority of Americans say they're in favor of A, a secure border --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: And B, then deporting people that are here illegally.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGINSKY: Then why don't you reverse yourself?
ALLISON: His members are tanking.
FERGUSON: They're not tanking.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Most conservatives --
FERGUSON: That's not true.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. Hold on, guys.
ALLISON: Stop talking for a second.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Guys, hang on a second. Ben, just a second. So, what she's referring to is his poll numbers on immigration, which have been declining.
ROGINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIP: And when you do ask people, this is why I brought up the issue of tactics. When you ask people about the -- the way that Trump is going about doing this mass deportation, which is going after, you know, a broad swath of the immigration -- the immigrant community, not just the criminals, which everybody agrees should be deported, but all of those other people, the nannies, the construction workers, the cooks, the -- the house cleaners, that's when you start to see more Americans saying, we don't agree with that, and we have seen that in the polls.
ARRIGHI: I got to slightly pushback on you, Abby. Harry Enten's own numbers last week said 51 percent of people are supportive of ICE in their communities. There was a poll today reported on by "Politico," big stack saying 50 percent support Trump's --
PHILLIP: I -- I understand what you're -- hold on. You're -- you're not hearing me. I'm saying that when you ask the broad general question, yeah, you'll get a pretty evenly divided public. But when you start to ask people about the specific tactics, about who is being targeted, then you start to see variation in the polling.
And I think we have to understand that because, yeah, you can add the --ask the broad question. But when you ask people, do you want them to deport this woman who's been cleaning your house? A lot of people are going to say no.
ARRIGHI: I understand that. And by the way, I would not say it's equally divided. It was like 51 PERCENT and 32 percent. It's not even. But another point, one of the great miscarriages -- and look, I am happy to investigate each case that -- that we say is mishandled because every time I look at a case, there tends to be more information that comes out so I always try to just --just be -- be a little cautious.
But here's the bigger miscarriage of justice I see in the press' coverage of this. You know, I was reading ICE's website and reading some of the rap sheets of the people who've been deported in my home state, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I was horrified that Maura Healey did not deport them earlier. I don't know why it wasn't -
PHILLIP: Maura Healey doesn't have the power to --
(CROSSTALK)
ARRIGHI: She didn't let ICE go -- she didn't let ICE go into the courthouses --
PHILLIP: Maura Healey does not have the power to deport anybody.
ARRIGHI: She does not. She has the ability --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And B --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Hold on a second. I understand what you're saying. Every one. Virtually. I mean, the polling is really --
UNKNOWN: Clear. Yeah.
PHILLIP: Overwhelming.
ARRIGHI: Yes.
PHILLIP: That when you say, do you want to deport criminals, rapists, murderers, any of those people, any people committing violent crimes, drug dealers, Americans say yes.
ARRIGHI: Yes.
PHILLIP: Deport them. However, however, when -- when you take those examples and you extrapolate from those examples that the rest of the immigrant community is characterized by those people, that is when you start to get problems with a lot of other peep people in this country, T.W. I mean, don't you understand that for every person who commits a murder, it doesn't mean that somebody who did not commit a murder is just as guilty.
ARRIGHI: I never accused them of that. We're all -- we're all descendants of people who came here, you know either voluntary or involuntarily and --and I think it's a beautiful thing. I don't want to say every immigrant person from Latin or Central America, Central South America is a murderer.
[22:45:02]
Not at all. But what I want to do is put the impetus on the politicians who ran sanctuary cities and states who stopped ICE from doing its job. That I think is a -- just as big of a story.
PHILLIP: I think it is. The last --last thing I'll say before I let you get in. I don't think -- I don't think that there is any evidence, any evidence at all that the idea that there are sanctuary cities which existed under Trump one, Biden, Obama, George W. Bush. Sanctuary cities have been around for a long time, and ICE has been able to do their jobs.
Obama deported a lot of people when sanctuary cities existed. So, where is the evidence that that impeded his ability to --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I just want to say, part of the problem I think the Republican Party has now is that you believe that there's all these violent people, and there are -- there are violent people, who need to be deported. The thing is, their numbers are not that large.
So, when you say you're going to do mass deportation because of violent people, if the rest of the country had the crime rate of the immigrants, we'd be a very safe country. The immigrants community is actually pretty low crime.
UNKNOWN: I don't --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: So, so, now you have this -- this mixed problem of saying, we're going to do mass deportation of violent people. So, inevitably, you wind up deporting a lot of people.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I think the problem is -- I think the problem is, is that people were told that we were going to focus on deporting criminals and the reality was that many people try to say is like, they think everybody is a criminal and that they don't care how they treat immigrants.
The humanity of people is being erased every day in these streets, and if you can sleep at night, then go for it. But I don't think -- I think whether you break the law or not, my -- my faith, my belief is that you still treat people with decency and humanity, and that it's not --
FERGUSON: Or that is respect in other people's laws. I agree with you. I respect the laws in Mexico when I go to Mexico.
ALLISON: But even -- but even --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I respect the laws in Paris when I go to Paris.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I respect the laws in --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: But even when they -- even when somebody doesn't respect the laws, I still respect their humanity.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I respect the laws -- to Israel later this year.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: The problem is there are people that don't respect the law.
JONES: I know you. I know you very well and I know for sure. If you -- if you knew the people that we're talking about, you would -- you would be standing with us. You'd be standing with us.
FERGUSON: Yes. And I go back to the -- I've had conversations.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: One of my best friends married an illegal immigrant. We had this conversation at dinner, and I said to her, I am sorry that you decided to break the law. There are a lot of Americans that break laws, and they go to jail. There's a consequence for your action.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, you said. Let me -- let me just -- hold on a second. You said to your --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: So, hold on a second. So, nannies at the park with babies --
FERGUSON: We have a grand conversation and you have one-sided where you say your side's --
ALLISON: You don't know -- (CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: -- And you told me --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Who said you'd kick me out if I had the conversation?
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: That's disrespectful. You don't --
PHILLIP: So, you said that you have a -- you have a friend whose wife isn't really --
FERGUSON: He married an illegal immigrant. They had children and they're in this country.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And you said to that person to --
FERGUSON: I had them on my show.
PHILLIP: Okay. I know. I'm just making sure we understand.
FERGUSON: We had them literally on my show.
PHILLIP: I think it's a very interesting anecdote.
FERGUSON: Because it's an important conversation.
PHILLIP: And you said to her you need to be deported?
FERGUSON: I said the same thing that my dad said to me if I ever got arrested. Don't expect me to bail you out. You're accountable for your actions.
ALLISON: So what did it say to her?
FERGUSON: What I said to her was this, I think you're an incredible human being. I-- I love that you have this love with your family and your friends. It doesn't erase your kindness or your love, the fact that you broke the law.
ROGINSKY: Did you call ICE on her?
FERGUSON: I'm not going to call ICE on somebody.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGINSKY: Why not? She broke the law.
FERGUSON: Exactly. It's a great question. Because they were working through the process with the lawyers while this was happening. And --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: A lot of people are doing that.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: This is what we're saying. And if she goes to a hearing --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Let me finish. Let me finish. I haven't even gotten to finish the story.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: If you have someone on your show who's an illegal immigrant and you have them on when you're having the conversation, everybody knows this is taking place. That's number one. Number two, they'd already had an interaction with law. They were already going through the process.
PHILLIP: Wait. Wait. Wait. Hold on. But -- but Ben --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: This is not --
PHILLIP: I'm glad we're on this because we were just discussing that exact scenario, many of these people, this is DHS policy now. They're in a courtroom because they are --they are -- they're undocumented right now, but they're going through a legal process to normalize their status.
And what DHS is doing to those people and might do to your friend's wife is say, actually, you know what we're going to do? We're just going to toss this case and when you walk out of the store, we're going to put you in an ICE detention facility.
ALLISON: That is happening.
FERGUSON: Here's what I can say.
PHILLIP: So, that's -- that is the scenario that we're talking about. That's what we're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I go back to the point that I made earlier. We are either a nation of laws, or we're not, and you don't get to pick and choose based on the scenario.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We do have to -- we really have to go. I'm getting the hook. I'm sorry, Everyone, thank you very much. Coming up next, much more on our other breaking news. President Trump gives a timeline on whether The U.S. will join Israel's conflict against Iran. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:54:32]
PHILLIP: It is a sacred day. The nation's second independence day, if you will, marking the end of slavery in The U.S., but also it's a day to remember. There's more to be done. A day to celebrate freedom, history, progress, and yes, culture. And despite only being at the halfway point of this year, that culture is having a profound impact on American society. Just a few examples.
[22:55:00]
A wordsmith rapper born in Compton headlined the beer's biggest event, bringing his talent and message to 100 million people at the Super Bowl. An artist known for R and B, pop, and hip hop stormed into a genre dominated by one race for so long and became the first black woman to win the Grammy for best country album. And a rising star director known for blockbusters took a chance on himself and his vision and created one of the highest grossing original movies of this century.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): There are legends of people with the gift of making music so true. It can conjure spirits from the past and the future. This gift can bring fame and fortune.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I'm late to the party, but I finally saw "Sinners" this weekend and I was blown away by its originality, its soul, and the lessons of one of its actors that he described so eloquently.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DELROY LINDO, ACTOR: Our history is part of, central to our foundation as human beings. Know your history, recognize the value of your history and preserve it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, that is a powerful reminder on this day and every day. We'll be back in a moment.
