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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Judge Puts New Block on Trump's Birthright Citizenship Order; Judge Expected to Rule on Lawsuit Seeking to Halt L.A. Ice Raids; Trump Admin Facing Trust Crisis Over DOJ Epstein Findings. Internal Battle Plays Out Within The Republican Party; "NewsNight" Shows A Preview of "Live Aid, When Rock and Roll Took On The World". Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired July 10, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, blocked in court. Trump's attempt to end birthright citizenship stopped nationwide, as ICE's show a force gets even stronger. And a California mayor issues a warning to residents.
MAYOR MICHAEL M. VARGAS, PERRIS, CALIFORNIA: Remain calm, stay indoors when possible, and know your rights.
PHILLIP: Plus, MAGA has trust issues.
JACK POSOBIEC, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: This is not how you treat the American people.
PHILLIP: The fallout from the Epstein case is turning Trump's base against him.
Also, is there still a seat at the table --
MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I think it's alive and well.
PHILLIP: -- for conservatives in the GOP?
And he might be our man in Malaysia. Trump's nominee for ambassador calls himself an alpha male influencer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sure all the alpha males that are listening to us right now.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Jillian Michaels, John Fugelsang and Karen Finney.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about. President Trump plans to end birthright citizenship. It hit a major roadblock in court today. Just two weeks ago, the White House was celebrating a Supreme Court ruling effectively ending federal judges' ability to issue nationwide injunctions against Trump's policies, but those justices did leave the door open to class action lawsuits to temporarily block orders.
Enter Judge Joseph Laplante. He halted President Trump's executive order ending birthright citizenship based on that very class action lawsuit, part of the Supreme Court ruling. The judge said his decision wasn't even a close call, adding the deprivation of U.S. citizenship and an abrupt change in policy that was longstanding. That is irreparable harm.
Now, the White House is saying that it's going to fight this ruling. The president has made this a key issue of his immigration policy since he was inaugurated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We're the only country in the world that does this with birthright, as you know. And it's just absolutely ridiculous.
I signed an order that will end birthright citizenship for the children of illegal aliens because it wasn't meant for these children.
Hundreds of thousands of people are pouring into our country under birthright citizenship, and it wasn't meant for that reason.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Also with us at the table is Congressman Sam Liccardo.
Congressman, this is happening at a time when Trump is ramping up ICE raids and detentions, but it's also, you know -- no surprise, we know he wants to end birthright citizenship. It's fine that he wants to do that. I think the question here is how can he do it? Can he just write something on a piece of paper or does he have to go the constitutional route?
REP. SAM LICCARDO (D-CA): Well, this is just an example of the epidemic of lawlessness in this administration. We now have four -- I'm sorry, excuse me, eight federal judges who have all said essentially that the 14th Amendment means what it says, just as the Supreme Court said 127 years ago.
This is nothing startling and yet. The administration is doubling down on executive order that everyone knows is unconstitutional, and in the meantime, terrorizing cities. We just saw in Los Angeles a group of eight-year-olds in a summer camp having been invaded by a Black Hawk helicopter. This militarization of enforcement is something that is clearly beyond the pale and does not belong in a democracy. SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, we're headed back to the Supreme Court. The result of this loophole that this judge found today for a nationwide injunction is that we'll be back in front of the Supreme Court over this. The conservative justices predicted that this would happen, that some abuse of the class action designation could occur.
And so, you know, we'll go back to the Supreme Court. I don't know what they're going to rule. I mean, there's some indication that they may not rule in his favor. He has a point of view on it. Other people have a point of view on it.
[22:05:01]
But this ought to be settled as a policy matter by the U.S. Supreme Court. That's where it's going. I assume it'll be pretty soon.
PHILLIP: I think it seems pretty clear based on how the law of this country works, is that if something is in the Constitution, you don't like it, you want to change it, you can change the Constitution. There is a process for that. Why not change the Constitution?
JILLIAN MICHAELS, PODCAST HOST, KEEPING IT REAL: Well, isn't there also another pathway? Couldn't the Supreme Court redefine? There's a very specific term in the 14th Amendment that talks about being under the jurisdiction of.
PHILLIP: I think it's very telling that you use the word, redefine.
MICHAELS: But we redefined the Second Amendment as well. We went from militia to private --
PHILLIP: The Constitution says in plain text, what it says, why would the Supreme Court have to redefine it?
MICHAELS: Well, here's why. Because this, in truth, was not intended for people to come over and Russian oligarchs to come over and have their baby here to essentially buy American citizenship. It wasn't intended to incentivize illegal immigration. It was for slaves after the Civil War. That's what it was intended for. And it's been exploited. Just one moment, and in pretty much every other country in the western world, they have rolled it back with the exception of the United States and Canada. And it would not be the first time we have redefined amendments.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You're missing a huge piece of history that the congressman mentioned, which was a case in the 1800s, a Chinese gentleman who, his parents were from China, they were not citizens of the United States. They were born here and the Supreme Court ruled that young man was an American citizen.
So not only do we have it in the 14th amendment of the Constitution, it has been examined very specifically for the child of immigrants. And they were found -- this gentleman was found to be an American citizen. So, to your question, you should have to go back to the Constitution. Donald Trump won't do that because he knows he would lose if you were to take on the United States Constitution head on. So, instead, what we've seen is this lawlessness and this, you know, pressing for, you know, galvanizing more power into the presidency and trying to basically daring people to stop him.
And actually, Scott, I disagree with you. I believe what Amy Coney Barrett said was they were talking about standing in the initial response and what they said was, you could do it as a class action. They didn't say an abusive class action. They said you could --
JENNINGS: Alito and Thomas predicted that this kind of abuse of this would happen. And that's okay. It's going to wind up back in front of the Supreme Court. And why is it lawless to take something before the Supreme Court?
FINNEY: It's not lawless --
PHILLIP: It did create a process by which class actions would really be the only way to challenge --
JENNINGS: And it wasn't followed in this case.
PHILLIP: Well, it was. They certified a class --
JENNINGS: Yes, but they circumvented the process. The judge certified a class.
And so, look, I mean, here's -- let me just read a little bit of what the judge says. As we said, he has no difficulty concluding with the rapid -- concluding the rapid adoption by executive order without legislation, and the attending national debate of a new government policy of highly questionable constitutionality that would deny citizenship to many thousands of individual previously granted citizenship under an indisputably, longstanding policy that constitutes irreparable harm.
I mean, beyond just the moment that we're in, the idea that we retroactively would revoke citizenship from millions of people who are now probably second and third generation Americans because Donald Trump decided he doesn't like the way that it's written, I --
LICCARDO: You know, Abby, I went to law school at the time when conservative jurists and scholars believed that you first look at the plain language of the Constitution, before you do anything else, the plain language is quite plain, and yet you have this now desire to reinvent the language of the Constitution. That is way out of balance for conservatives.
PHILLIP: John?
JOHN FUGELSANG, SIRIUSXM HOST, TELL ME EVERYTHING: I mean, the only thing Donald Trump hates more than immigrants is the Constitution and the Bible that protects them. And it's worth pointing out he's our only president who have hired undocumented immigrants in two different centuries to avoid paying a living wage to an American worker.
If they wanted the border crossings to stop, they would go after the employers. There's a gigantic help wanted sign at our border, and the Republican Party will never take that help.
JENNINGS: Wait, the border crossings have stopped. They have stopped.
FUGELSANG: They will never --
JENNINGS: They're literally almost zero.
FUGELSANG: But they're not going after the employers. The white guy -- hang on.
JENNINGS: You said they wanted them to stop. They have stopped, already have stopped. Have they not?
FUGELSANG: No, they have not. And they will continue to come. Donald Trump will -- okay, they come here because white people -- may I? They come here because white folks like Donald Trump hire them to avoid paying a living wage worker.
JENNINGS: The border is effectively shut down.
FUGELSANG: And Donald Trump has already said he will not be going after the agricultural sector. The white folks who do the hiring and make the profits have stayed to exploit the laborers.
PHILLIP: The point he's making is about whether Trump is going to go after the employers. And the answer is no, he's not. But, hold on, look, right now -- okay.
JENNINGS: Is the border effectively closed now?
[22:10:00]
PHILLIP: There are very few border crossings. It's not zero, but it's very few. So, let's --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: But let me let just -- right now in the state of Los Angeles --
MICHALES: They're not going after the employer.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
LICCARDO: I can tell you the border is not the only way people get in this now. The majority overstay their visas.
PHILLIP: Right now -- not anymore. That now -- not anymore, or at least it was not in the last surge.
So, in Los Angeles, there's a lawsuit right now actually addressing some of what you're talking about, which is they're challenging ICE's ability to just go to a Home Depot parking lot and sweep people up to stop people because they look Hispanic, because maybe they're speaking Spanish. This lawsuit is before a judge tomorrow, and there will be a decision on it tomorrow, and it could very significantly curtail the Trump administration's ability to do these sort of wide-ranging raids.
But the assertion here is that there's racial profiling going on in these places.
FINNEY: Of course, there is. It's very much akin to, I'll tell you what it, what frightens me is, we've had this before in our history in the Jim Crow south when you had young black men being disappeared off the streets. I mean, there is a very real type of terror that is being perpetrated against black and brown people in this country who are being profiled, who are being targeted.
And I think John raises a very important point, which is if you really want to stop it, then you go after the employers and you make sure that's they don't hold the jobs open and you make those employers, whether that is in meat packing, whether that is in farms, whether that is in the Central Valley of California, you pay people a living wage, you give them healthcare benefits, you treat them like human beings, you create real jobs rather than, you know, we went from one unpaid labor force to another very low paid labor force. And this country has worked that way for centuries. And if we really wanted to stop it, we would go after the employers.
MICHAELS: I'm just confused. I don't even understand what you're for because you talk about following the law, but ICE is enforcing law enacted by Congress. Are you for illegal immigration?
FUGELSANG: Anyone standing on American soil is allowed to claim asylum. And we call the -- excuse me, we call the people illegals, but they're Christian refugees. I have this crazy thing I do with the Bible. I read it. And Jesus is emphatic about saying that we will be judged nations and individuals in Matthew 25 --
(CROSSTALKS)
FUGELSANG: Well, no, but hang on.
JENNINGS: We're a nation of laws.
FUGELSANG: You belong to a party that likes to wave Jesus like a property.
JENNINGS: We are not in a theocracy.
FUGELSANG: Okay, if I may --
JENNINGS: We're in a nation of laws.
MICHAELS: We're talking about a Bible or the Constitution, or laws enacted by Congress.
FUGELSANG: Let me finish. I'm talking about a political party that uses the pretense Christianity to get votes. MICHAELS: But how did you just pivot all the way over to there?
FUGELSANG: Because the God of the Hebrew scriptures commands us to welcome the stranger, Christ says, we'll be judged by it. Why should I listen to Donald Trump instead of God and Jesus? As long as your party --
(CROSSTALKS)
MICHAELS: Enacted by Congress.
FUGELSANG: Yes. Well, if you're standing on our soil, you're allowed to claim asylum. If you are born here, you are a citizen.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on guys. Scott, hold on.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Scott, just a second please.
FUGELSANG: Among many among, yes.
MICHAELS: Did you have an issue --
FUGELSANG: How about we follow due process?
MICHAELS: Did you have an issue with the millions of people that Obama deported, over 50 percent of which did not get due process? And they -- no? Really? Expedited removal, voluntary returns.
LICCARDO: Expedited removal is in the law.
MICHAELS: Millions of people.
LICCARDO: Followed the law.
FINNEY: I believe people had the opportunity to go before a judge and make their case.
MICHAELS: That's absolutely --
JENNINGS: Many were turned away from the border.
MICHAELS: That is absolutely --
FINNEY: That's another way --
FUGELSANG: So, that makes it a point now?
MICHAELS: That's not my point. It's the selection of outrage.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Guys, hold on one second. Let me let Jill -- hold on. (CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Guys, hang on one second.
MICHAELS: Oh, they didn't. California is now a sanctuary city. It used to be --
FINNEY: It's a state, not a city, California.
MICHALES: Los Angeles is now a sanctuary city. California didn't have sanctuary cities when Obama was in office and they cooperated under a program called --
FUGELSANG: How are they making your life worse? How are they hurting you?
MICHALES: That's not my point.
FUGELSANG: But how are they hurting you?
MICHAELS: Illegal immigration hurts everybody.
FUGELSANG: Illegal immigration pumps $5 billion a year to our economy.
PHILLIP: Hang on a second, John.
MICHAELS: Okay, let's --
JENNINGS: Did they help Laken Riley? Did they help --
PHILLIP: John, hang on a second. Scott, hold on a second.
FUGELSANG: A lot more --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Jillian, Jillian, hi.
FUGELSANG: Excuse me, but homegrown Americans kill a much higher rate.
JENNINGS: I'd like to put them in jail too.
MICHAELS: (INAUDIBLE) illegal immigration and --
PHILLIP: Okay. Everyone, just stop talking for just a second. Jillian, please stop talking. You all are all talking at the same time. It's impossible to hear or understand. When I say, stop talking, please stop talking. Thank you.
Jillian, the question I have for you is about the scope of these raids. That's the issue here. It's not even whether or not ICE can target people who have orders of deportation, who they know they're looking for. The question is whether they can go into an area and look at people who look a certain way or maybe are doing a particular job and just detain them and then ask questions later.
[22:15:05]
That's the issue at hand here in that case. That's going to be decided tomorrow.
MICHAELS: If that's the issue at hand, obviously I would be completely against racial profiling. But am I confused? Have we deported American citizens because they're black or brown?
FINNEY: Yes.
JENNINGS: Yes.
FINNEY: Yes, actually. Yes, there are several sitting in prisons around the (INAUDIBLE).
Look, there are examples of people --
MICHAELS: Name someone.
PHILLIP: There are example of people who have been detained who have legal status detained or who are citizens. Actually, we have it here. I mean, so people with legal status, DACA recipients held at Alligator Alcatraz. The attorney doesn't know why. Another green card holder also detained in Alligator Alcatraz.
MICHAELS: Detained is not deported.
PHILLIP: Yes. But the question is --
MICHAELS: And if you're going to (INAUDIBLE) these individuals --
PHILLIP: I think the question is, when you detain them, are they being given due process? And because if they have a reason to not be detained and they don't have a way to prove it, then that's the problem. I think that's the problem that is being raised by some of this. I don't know that anybody is disputing the idea that ICE should -- you know, if they have deportation orders, if they're looking for someone, maybe that person's a criminal, whatever, go get that person. But I think what we are seeing, and there's plenty of evidence of this, is that there are examples of. Immigration enforcement officials going into the wrong home and picking up people, entire families because they are of Hispanic descent, and then seeking to deport them --
JENNINGS: Well, what's their status.
MICHAELS: Are they here illegally? Well, thank you. Are they're illegally or not?
PHILLIP: I think that is a very good question.
FUGELSANG: They're not checking.
PHILLIP: That is a very good question. They then have to be -- they're forced into a position where they have to prove that they're -- they have status, they have some legal process that is pending to gain status. Some of them do and they're still detained. Their freedom is still taken away.
JENNINGS: I think you're skirting around the issue. Vast majority, vast, vast, vast majority of interactions here are occurring with people who are in the country illegally.
But I do have a question. Your view, apparently, and I think it's a valid debating point, but if someone can get here illegally, as I understand it, you think they have an immediate right to claim a status and stay here.
FUGELSANG: No. My point is --
JENNINGS: Is that the position of the Democratic Party?
FUGELSANG: The law is if you're on our soil, you can claim asylum. These folks you call --
JENNINGS: Not everybody get gets asylum.
PHILLIP: All right.
JENNINGS: I'm just asking --
PHILLIP: We have to leave it there, guys.
Coming up next, Trump's base is angry at the administration for how it handled this Epstein case, and they're not backing down on it. We'll discuss that.
Plus, former Vice President Mike Pence says that he thinks MAGA is a minority voice in the GOP. Is he right about that? We'll debate that too.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Promises made, promises kept. Tonight, the Trump administration is facing a crisis of trust over its handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case. And after a DOJ memo concluded, the convicted sex offender and disgraced financier did not blackmail high-profile individuals, was not murdered, and that so-called client list does not in fact exist, well, Trump and his allies who long promised that more damning evidence would come to light are not saying that anymore.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Yes, I'd be inclined to do the Epstein. I'd have no problem with it.
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. That is an important thing.
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are.
DAN BONGINO, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: I'm not ever going to let this story go because of what I heard from a source about Bill Clinton on a plane with Jeffrey Epstein.
I'm not letting it go ever, ever.
ALINA HABBA, COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT: We have flight logs, we have information names that will come out.
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: President Trump has given a very strong directive and that's going to be followed.
REPORTER: Wow. Okay. So --
BONDI: A lot of documents.
REPORTER: Yes. Okay, all right. So, people can expect actual movement on this, not just empty promises?
BONDI: Oh, Donald Trump doesn't make empty promises.
REPORTER: Yes, all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Uh-oh. Well, top MAGA influencers say they are disappointed and that is putting it mildly with these findings. They're disillusioned and they are letting the administration hear it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX JONES, HOST, THE ALEX JONES SHOW: This is just absolute horse shit on its face, and it's a disaster for them to do it.
So much good, and then for them to do something like this tears my guts out.
LIZ WHEELER, HOST, THE LIZ WHEELER SHOW: His administration has lost a tremendous amount of goodwill with voters because people care viscerally about the Epstein files.
POSOBIEC: We were told was new information on Epstein. It wasn't. We were told that more information was coming. There wasn't. You claim that you had the list on your desk. You didn't, and none of it came out.
LAURA LOOMER, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: I mean, look, at the end of the day, we were promised one thing and we have not received that promise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: This feels kind of like what happens when you play with fire. You're using an issue that you're -- you don't have a lot of information about for political gain, then you get into power and then suddenly you have to do something about it, and now they're realizing they can't do what they promised.
MICHAELS: I can't wrap my head around it, to be honest, because, as we were just discussing in the break, Trump campaigned on this. You go back as early as 2015 and he's telling Hannity on stage about how Clinton is going to have trouble with this mysterious island. And you've just watched Kash and Bongino all talk about like, we're going to go to the ends of the earth to expose this.
What alarms me the most is why they didn't expose it, I'm going to be honest.
PHILLIP: I mean if Hillary Clinton and Bill -- whatever, not Hillary, Bill Clinton, were on this list, don't you think they would've released it? So, I mean, it suggests to me that, first of all, there might not be what they promised the base.
[22:25:05]
That might not be what is really at play here. And now they have to deal with the consequences of sort of feeding this beast, so to speak.
LICCARDO: The fact that there's a false conspiracy theory propagated by this attorney general is not a bug for this Trump administration. That's a feature. And, you know, that's how Pam Bonnie got into this job because she was propagating those false conspiracy theories about how supposedly Trump won the election in Pennsylvania in 2020.
Look, what this is demonstrating, I have no idea who's on the list and who's not, but that this Department of Justice is a facilitator for cover-up and corruption, whether it's looking the other way while Trump is making hundreds of millions of dollars on a pay-to-play scheme through its Trump meme coin or whether it's senior officials at the Department of Justice instructing junior officials to ignore court orders.
This is a department that's entirely about covering up corruption, and this is consistent.
FINNEY: Well, I'm protecting the president, if he is on the list. I'm not saying that he is. I mean, it does. For the conspiracy theorists, though, you don't put to rest a conspiracy theory by creating more conspiracy and saying you're not going to show the list. And, I mean, I think the challenge for them though, just politically, right, his own base is being treated the way he treats Democrats, right, where he belittles us, he berates us, he says, it's stupid, why do you care, why are you still talking about this. They're not going to accept this because they -- as Jillian pointed out, he campaigned on this, he made a promise, and they mean to keep -- hold him to it.
So, it'll be interesting to see how does he, you know, warm his way out of this point and Bondi goes under the bus.
PHILLIP: They're not really holding. -- I mean, to your point, they're not really holding his knee to the fire. They're holding Pam Bondi's knee to the fire. I mean, listen to Laura Loomer talk about Pam Bondi. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOOMER: I am just saying that there are a lot of people online right now and a lot of people in the base who are saying that they're done, that they're done, because this is something that shouldn't even be a partisan issue. And I blame Pam Bondi. I really do. And Trump was the one who appointed her. And Trump can be the one to fire her if she doesn't have enough dignity and shame to resign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I'm just saying, this is how it goes.
FINNEY: So, Trump can't put the list out himself. He needs Pam Bondi. Is that what we're supposed to believe?
JENNINNGS: Look, it's -- in my opinion, multiple things can be true. It's highly likely the government is in possession of documents and information that have names on them. That would be of extreme public interest. I have no doubt about that.
Number two, there may be a reason why they can't release it, because, you know, there may be regulations and, you know, ethical reasons why you can't release things if you can't bring a case against someone. I mean, but number three, if that's the case, they're going to have to explain that a little better. There's going to have to be a little more transparency.
PHILLIP: I think that's right. I think they --- listen, I think, first of all, I think you're right about both of those things. One, if they were going to release a list, you better have some proof that this list is not just a list of names with no evidence attached to it. And, secondly, if that is the case, they should explain that as opposed to just saying it doesn't exist. The idea that they're saying it doesn't exist is what's roiling the base.
FUGELSANG: Yes, especially after using the word, list. And I was saying in the break to Mr. Jennings, I've had callers on my Sirius exceptional week, Republican MAGA callers who are furious about this. Can I just say in one week to have so much agreement between progressives and conservatives on this and indifference to the Bezos wedding? It warms my heart to see us finding common ground here.
But in this case, a lot of these folks aren't mad that they were lied to. They're mad they didn't get the lies they wanted. And the reality is if this if the evidence proved that Bill Clinton and Donald Trump were on that island, Democrats would ban Bill Clinton forever and Republicans would ban the evidence.
PHILLIP: You're probably right. Hey, look, it's not any names that they want. The want particular names.
FUGELSANG: They want Obama and (INAUDIBLE) again.
PHILLIP: All right everyone thank you for that. Congressman Sam Liccardo, thank you very much for joining us. Coming up, it is President Trump's political party, but is the Republican Party all MAGA now or, like former Vice President Pence says, is that just a minority voice? We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: There's an internal battle playing out within the Republican Party right now. On one side there is a more traditional, old-fashioned conservative, and then on the other, there is the era of Donald Trump, a new wave of populism fueled by the MAGA faithful that has sent the GOP on a sharp turn. Now, if you ask former Vice President Mike Pence, he sees things a little differently. Here's his take on how his ex-boss has shaped the party.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE (R) FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Well, think President Trump, as presidents should, has changed aspects of the agenda of the Republican Party. But I don't think he's changed the Republican Party. There is a populist move within the party that says we should marginalize the right to life, that we should embrace big government programs, that we should pull back from our commitments in the world. But I think that's a -- that's a minority voice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at the table is Jeff Duncan. He's Georgia's former lieutenant governor and a contributing columnist to "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution". Jeff, you may be the perfect person to answer this question.
[22:35:01]
Is Mike Pence right that that's a minority view, that Trump is sort of leading this sort of limited faction of the Republican Party right now?
JEFF DUNCAN (R) FORMER GEORGIA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: With all due respect, Mike Pence is not correct when he makes that statement. Donald Trump completely controls the entire GOP. And the only example I can give that equates to it is like a rogue cult leader coming into a church, and taking it over, he's brainwashed them. And you don't have to look any further than the zombie-esque reaction to even the last few weeks.
I mean, DOGE has imploded. He's made promises, yet the base doesn't hold him accountable for it. We've spent trillions of dollars in debt that he promised that we wouldn't. We still have wars in Ukraine raging, and he's taken the sides of Vladimir Putin until the last few hours. This is not the Republican Party that I grew up in. And I don't think it's ever coming back. I think it's gone. I think it's gone for good. They're in the ditch, and they just don't know it yet.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: How are we in the ditch?
PHILLIP: Hope springs eternal.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: We won -- we won an actual popular vote last November. We won a crushing victory electoral college. We won majorities in the House and the Senate. We just passed a big beautiful bill. Peace is breaking out of the Middle East.
Peace is breaking out on the African continent. Gas prices are lower than they've been in four years. Taxes are going to be a low. Egg prices are down 69 percent. The southern border is secure. Jeff, these are things Republicans have believed in for a very, very long time.
PHILLIP: But -- but Scott, I mean, we can't forget that it wasn't that long ago when you were probably closer to the Mike Pence view of this. You -- you were not necessarily a Trump supporter until fairly recently.
JENNINGS: I voted for him three times.
PHILLIP: So, well --
DUNCAN: But Scott --
JENNINGS: I mean --
PHILLIP: -- making news here at this table, because you, I mean, what I'm pointing to is that your evolution is mirroring something that's happened in the Republican Party in general. Just March -- January 2024, 40 percent of GOP-leading voters ID'd as MAGA supporters. March 2025, that number is now 71 percent.
So, I'm actually not so sure that anything about Trump has changed in the interim. It's really more that people like you have gone from being more aligned with a Mike Pence to being more aligned with Donald Trump. Explain that to me.
JENNINGS: It's a good and valid question, but I don't see much disalignment. They have a personality conflict. Pence and Trump obviously had a falling out over a very serious issue. But on conservative orthodox policy stuff, the only real area where Trump has truly changed the party is on tariffs and trade. He believes in tariffs a lot more than any other president has since the 18 -- early 1900s. And so, that is a major difference in the platform.
I acknowledge that. But on taxes, on the border, on pro-life, on having a strong military, and even now, getting NATO strengthened with the five percent, helping Israel defeat Iran, he's not an isolationist. He is, on many ways, the same as every other Republican president of my lifetime and of your lifetime. There are some differences, but it's not as vast, I think, as you want it to be.
DUNCAN: Donald Trump does not remind me of Ronald Reagan.
(CROSSTALK)
DUNCAN: And the Scott Jennings, who was a Republican growing up, working for Mitch McConnell, George Bush and others, very respectable Republicans, would probably not even shake hands with the Scott Jennings that's sitting here today.
JENNINGS: Well, I shook hands with Mitch McConnell this week, so -- A. B, Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump worked together to change the Supreme Court and give us a six to three majority to pass the tax cuts in 2017. Again, personal differences are different than policy alignment.
(CROSSTALK)
DUNCAN: Do you think -- do you think Donald Trump showed respect to your former boss, Mitch McConnell? Do you think he showed respect to him?
JENNINGS: Do you think he's showing respect to him?
DUNCAN: Yeah.
JENNINGS: Not always. No.
JOHN FUGELSANG, SIRIUSXM HOST, "TELL ME EVERYTHING": If we asked you to find one day since his inauguration that he has not lied to you and your family, do think you could do it? One day he's spoken publicly? Because he can't stop lying, Scott.
And I do think the party's changed quite a bit. The Republican party I grew up with would not delight in beating cops for a lie and then pardoning the people who beat the cops. I don't know what conservatism means anymore.
This gentleman is the perfect person to speak to what Mike Pence is going through because what does it mean? It doesn't mean family values, doesn't mean the Christian values, fiscal responsibility?
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Again, we don't live in a theocracy. We live in a nation of laws and we live in a nation of policy choices.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Our policy choices today are basically the same as Republican policy choices with the exception of terrorists, which I acknowledge. But this president has done --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I actually -- can I --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: -- a lot of conservative stuff that people have always wanted.
PHILLIP: You said two things a few times on the show, one, about not living in a theocracy, which you're right. But it is also true, and I think this is John's point, that for many, many decades the Republican Party, and even under Trump, says explicitly, we are a Judeo-Christian society. He, you know, claims to his supporters that his faith is important that it's the most important thing in American society he says that.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
PHILLIP: That the Bible should be taught in schools, that he is selling a Bible with his name on it. So, there's that. But then secondly, the party of George W. Bush of compassionate conservatism of immigration reform, that party is also gone, too, right?
FUGELSANG: That party has soft power in USAID.
PHILLIP: USAID, a PEPFAR, that party is also gone? Is it not?
JILLIAN MICHAELS, PODCAST HOST, "KEEPING IT REAL": I come at this from a completely different position. I actually see a more welcoming Republican Party as somebody who comes traditionally from the left.
[22:40:01]
And I say this with regard to four things that I outlined personally. So, I perceived the Republican Party as being interventionist with foreign policy and now being more America first. Although I did support what we did in Iran. But we're not engaged in a forever war, as far as I can tell. And we were with Cheney and Bush -- we have been previously. His position on abortion, while, you know, I am more to the left on this, it used to be fully pro-life.
He's suggesting, you know, it goes to the states, and I believe he said he would never support a federal abortion ban. He said he wouldn't block gay marriage, which is something that I thought was always traditionally a conservative position. And the tariffs thing, as you mentioned, as far as I can remember, conservatives were globalists, they were for free trade and it arguably hollowed out the middle class, so I'm with Trump on that.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean look, I think that this divide right here, I mean, you're demonstrating a lot of reasons why Trump was able to actually make inroads in Democratic constituencies, but you're suggesting that he's the same old Republican as everybody else. I think that Jillian is perhaps proof that that's not the case.
JENNINGS: His attitude and his ability to get things done, his spirit, the way he fights the left, the way he fights for free speech in Western civilization, and the way he's open to coalition building and building non-traditional alliances is a key political talent.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I think -- I think that that explains your support for Trump, but I think that it is -- that Jillian is correct that on those policy issues, Trump has tried to be somewhere in, dare I say, a bit of the mushy middle on some of this stuff. He was -- he ran as an anti-war candidate. What he ran on versus what he -- how he actually governs, you know, it shifts. But what he ran on and what he pulled people in on, I think, is the difference here.
(CROSSTALK)
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But I think we also can't ignore not only Jeff and the divides here at the table, but the millions of people, thousands of people who consider themselves anti- Trump who were once Republicans and a whole movement of Republicans who, I mean, I can remember sitting at a meeting leading up to this election. I've got Bill Kristol sitting here. I've got, you know, former friends, conservatives from across the aisle. We were all aligned in how do we defeat Trump? It was a meeting -- if you --
JENNINGS: How'd it work out?
FINNEY: You know what, Scott?
JENNINGS: Just asking.
PHILLIP: All right.
FINNEY: I'll tell you what, he's underwater on every single issue.
(CROSSTALK)
FINNEY: Hold on. Let me finish.
PHILLIP: Guys, we got to go.
FINNEY: My only point is, I think you can ignore the fact that there are thousands of people who consider themselves traditional Republicans like Jeff who no longer see a home in the Republican Party. I don't care what Scott says.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: And vice versa. There's --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Coming up next, the President's controversial nominee to be ambassador to Malaysia. He calls himself an alpha male. And he posted about Hooters over 500 times. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:47:44]
PHILLIP: Tonight, MAGA masculinity and diplomacy. President Trump is nominating a controversial self-professed alpha male influencer to be the next U.S. ambassador to Malaysia. Nick Adams is an Australian- American MAGA firebrand, and he rose to fame for his hyper-masculine social media posts, like this one listing an alpha male's priorities -- God and Bible, the boys, Hooters, foursomes, meat, money, and deals, along with regular boasts about his own bravado.
"I have superior genetics," he says. "I have large amounts of testosterone. I am never wrong. I don't apologize." Adams has also proclaimed that Donald Trump is the greatest example of an alpha male in world history and uses an image of a pharaoh to prove it. I'm not following, but --
FUGELSANG: I just found out he was in a parody account right now at this table.
PHILLIP: I think you and a lot of people are in that position.
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: -- with Andy Kaufman doing like pulling the wool over all of our eyes all these years later. There's lots of ways to give the finger to the people of Malaysia. Appointing a guy who's foreign policy experiences screaming at women from your car window is an interesting way to go about it.
DUNCAN: I hope he's got his paperwork in order if he's going to leave the country. Isn't he from Australia? Like, I'm not sure --
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: He is.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He has become a naturalized American citizen somehow.
(CROSSTALK)
DUNCAN: I learned of an important lesson playing rotting in the minor leagues for six years that normally, the person with the biggest mouth is the person you have to worry about the least. And that's playing out in this scenario. But I also think --
PHILLIP: Can I just say it? If you have to talk about testosterone --
DUNCAN: Yeah.
FINNEY: Right. I was going to say, my mom always told me, boy's talking about it, it means he has not got it. So --
PHILLIP: It's kind of weird.
FINNEY: Or he's slow.
PHILLIP: But I mean, is he going to be confirmed, do you think, to this position?
FINNEY: Probably not, but I think there's a more -
JENNINGS: Why?
FINNEY: Because -- sure, okay, yes. Because --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: You don't think the Senate Foreign Relations Committee respects testosterone?
FINNEY: Sure. Okay, Scott, you can have that one.
DUNCAN: I have rizz. I am smart. I am charismatic. I have superior genetics. I am strong. I bold. I am intense. There's just a few things that are problematic.
(CROSSTALK)
FINNEY: I think there's a more --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, go ahead, Karen.
FINNEY: I think there's a more important issue, though, that this is raising. I don't --- I don't really care if he's, you know. If Trump wants to embarrass us to Malaysia, that's fine. I mean, what I think is more important is what he represents, and that is, I was at a conference over the weekend earlier this week, actually.
[22:50:03]
And looking at what is happening with our young men and the kind of masculinity that he is trying to represent, which is one kind of masculinity. I'm not here to attack that at all. But what I think Trump did, and it's -- it is an example of what this gentleman represents which is very virile, strong, sort of one type of masculinity. It's part of how Trump frankly moved young men 14 points in 2024 to win young men.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
FINNEY: And it is a real issue for the Democratic Party and we know it. And we know that we have to have conversations with young men and take them seriously. And to my mind, what I'm more concerned about is the ways in which social media has helped to isolate young men. Young men feel attacked. They don't feel heard. They don't feel respected.
And how do we, and certainly they also feel powerless. They feel -- many of them feel powerless in their own lives to have a better life than the lives of their fathers and grandfathers. And there is a real crisis of mental health and particularly brought on by COVID and brought on by a lot of depression. And that I think we should take seriously.
PHILLIP: Some of this stuff is frankly just toxic.
UNKNOWN: Yeah. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: It's synthetic confidence.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Jillian, I don't know. Maybe this is a joke.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But it just seems a little tactic.
MICHAELS: Okay. If I could just point out a little bit of advocacy (ph). And I don't think this guy is awesome, trust me. He would not be my first choice. But historically speaking and basher ships have been bought and sold. I mean, who was it -- which -- which what was it Biden or Obama that gave an ambassadorship to the producer of "The Bold and the Beautiful"?
FUGELSANG: Reagan made the actor John Gavin.
(CROSSTALK)
MICHAELS: I mean, historically speaking, that's what happens. If you also look at some of the people who are scumbags in the Biden administration, what about that guy Scott Brinton who was stealing women's luggage and caught wearing their clothes?
PHILLIP: That was -- he was a relatively low level, like, federal employee. That's not an ambassador. Like --
(CROSSTALK)
MICHAELS: Okay. How about the guy, Xavier Becerra, who was running HHS and advocated to remove all age limits for sex changes on kids?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Who was a former elected official. I mean, look. I take your point about ambassadorships.
MICHAELS: Ambassadorship --
PHILLIP: They are candy handed out to supporters, but --
JENNINGS: Actually, I know little --
PHILLIP: Are you suggesting that this person should not be --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Well, I know a little about this. I helped -- I helped President Bush with a number of ambassadorial appointments when I worked in the White House.
PHILLIP: Yes.
JENNINGS: Some ambassadorships are actually career foreign service. In fact, Malaysia has always been --
PHILLIP: Yes.
JENNINGS: So, this is a change for it. It'll be a political ambassador. But traditionally, political ambassadors have just a couple of qualifications. Do you have the confidence of the president? And can you be confirmed by the United States Senate?
But the most important of those is, to start, do you have the confidence in can you serve at the pleasure of the president? Nick (ph), I don't know personally. I've interacted with him via text a time or two. He's an interesting, colorful personality.
But ultimately, he'll have to do it. Every other ambassador does go to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and prove to them that he's qualified enough and studied up enough on this to do the job and earn their support. He's like every other nominee. He gets a chance to prove himself. And he's a -- he's a U.S. citizen who the president has confidence in. Why shouldn't he get a chance to serve?
PHILLIP: All right, we've got to leave it there. Everyone, thank you very much. Up next, I have something I've been working on that I'd like to tell you about. But first, a programming note. Forty years ago this month, a group of rock stars performed at "Live Aid".
It was a landmark event to raise money for famine relief in Africa. An all-new CNN original series takes a look at how it all came together and how the movement continued. It's called "Live Aid, When Rock and Roll Took on the World". Here's a preview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): It's 12 noon in London, 7 A.M. in Philadelphia, and around the world it's time for "Live Aid".
UNKNOWN: We live in a world of circles full. There is no reason why these human beings should die.
UNKNOWN: Bob came in and said, I've got this idea.
UNKNOWN: I'm very pleased to announce "Live Aid".
UNKNOWN: Even the experts didn't have a clue whether it was going to work or not.
UNKNOWN: My head was full of -- it's going to be a disaster.
UNKNOWN: To be honest, it seemed like this could never happen.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
UNKNOWN: No one had ever had 16 hours of anything on television.
PAUL MCCARTNEY, SINGER AND SONGWRITER, BEATLES: It's huge event, you know, it could be the start of something big.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
UNKNOWN: That effort saved so many lives.
UNKNOWN: It's coming from a good place. That is coming from very white paternalistic place.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
UNKNOWN: What "Live Aid" did was open up the avenues of possibility. Live Aid invites you to walk down them.
UNKNOWN: It was one of the last moments of global solidarity.
UNKNOWN: Something went on at "Live Aid" that's still with us.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): "Live Aid, When Rock and Roll Took on the World". Premiers Sunday at nine on CNN.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:26]
PHILLIP: I've got a special announcement for you. My debut book, "A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power". It will be released this fall on October 28th. This is a book about a really important piece of American political history.
It is the story of Jackson's two fascinating and groundbreaking presidential campaigns in 1984 and 1988. Now, those insurgent campaigns shocked the Democratic establishment, drew tens of thousands to Jackson's campaign rallies all across the country, and his campaign changed the Democratic Party.
[23:00:01]
They supercharged black political power and paved the way for the country to finally elect the first black president, Barack Obama. This book takes a look at Jackson's political legacy more than 40 years later and I cannot wait for you all to read it. Scan that Q.R. code on your screen to preorder now. And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
