Return to Transcripts main page
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Epstein Case Backlash Divides Trump's Officials And His Base; Supreme Court Green Lights Trump's Mass Firings At Department Of Education; Obama Urges Democrats To Stop Whining And Do Something; "NewsNight" Discusses Deportations In The United States; Abby Phillip Promotes Her New Book. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 14, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, it was one of his selling points to get elected.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that Donald Trump, he promised them, so he needs to do it.
PHILLIP: But now Donald Trump says, when it comes to Jeffrey Epstein, file away and forget.
Plus, from Epstein's U-turn to Ukraine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're being drawn in to a major war.
PHILLIP: Trump disappoints his base and begins to lose control.
Also, they're being called monsters, gangsters, and deranged psychopaths, but some immigrants being sent to Alligator Alcatraz have no criminal records.
And Joe Biden hits back at the backlash over his pardons, but is the stroke of autopen a scandal or standard?
Live at the table, Ana Navarro, Shermichael Singleton, Maria Cardona, Phil Williams and Brad Polumbo.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, a family feud intense, it might even get Steve Harvey to blush. Donald Trump came into power in part by fueling conspiracies and telling his supporters that they can't trust the government. So, perhaps it's not surprising that his MAHA of Frankenstein doesn't believe him when he says trust the government. After all, the president promised to release the Epstein files. His attorney general even teased that she had the client list right there on her desk.
But, suddenly, Trump is telling his base that there's nothing to see here. Just move on. There is no list. Just forget about the files all together. In fact, he even suggested that Democrats made up the files, but MAGA is not buying it. They want those files and they want Pam Bondi, the A.G., fired.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not about just a pedophile ring and all that. It is about who governs us, right? And that's why it's not going to go away.
You're going to lose 10 percent of the MAGA movement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's insulting our intelligence. Like, obviously, the intelligence community is trying to cover it up. Obviously, the Trump administration is trying to cover up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The current DOJ under Pam Bondi is covering up crimes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, Trump is doing damage control behind the scenes, even calling MAGA stars directly, like Charlie Kirk, whose tone seems to have suddenly changed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE KIRK, HOST, THE CHARLIE KIRK SHOW: We do know that our own FBI now has the Jeffrey Epstein blackmail files. What we are saying today on the program is that the American government or the Israeli government or the British government, or whatever, was willing to have pedophilia take place so that they could get blackmail on powerful people.
Raise your hand if the Epstein thing is very important to you. Raise your hand. Can we just show that pan shot really quick, guys? Keep your hands up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's 100 percent.
KIRK: And every hand goes up, people have two hands up.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: The president has been personally calling some of his fiercest supporters. That includes Charlie Kirk, the head, the founder of Turning Point USA.
KIRK: Honestly, I'm done talking about Epstein for the time being. I'm going to trust my friends in the administration. I'm going to trust my friends in the government to do what needs to be done, solve it, balls in their hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Again, trusting the government isn't really their thing, or at least it wasn't.
Joining us in our fifth seat is Donie O'Sullivan, who spent some time this weekend with the MAGA faithful. Donie, just how pissed off are the MAGA folks right now?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: They're very pissed. As you mentioned, I spent a great weekend in Tampa, Florida, at the --
PHILLIP: It sounds nice and muggy.
O'SULLIVAN: -- Turning point USA conference talking about Jeffrey Epstein. So --
PHILLIP: Let's be happy you didn't end up in Alligator Alcatraz.
O'SULLIVAN: Right. But, yes, I mean, this was -- everybody was talking about it on stage, off stage. We spoke to a lot of people. We didn't meet anyone who didn't want Trump to be more transparent and to release whatever it is, whatever people imagine these Epstein files to be.
PHILLIP: Did you talk to people after the Trump the Trump X or Truth Social post?
[22:05:01]
I'm sorry. Because the consensus online seemed to be, oh, wow, this guy's got something to hide.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. I mean, so the folks we were chatting to this weekend, I mean, the people -- nobody we spoke to -- actually we spoke to folks before he posted that on Saturday night, but nobody at the MAGA event, unsurprisingly, I guess, thinks that there's anything bad about Trump in these files. They think maybe that he -- some of his friends are in there and that it could ruin their lives.
What I found really interesting about that posts from Trump, the gals, guy -- boys and gals post, that's on Truth Social, right, which is basically a pro-Trump echo chamber. I checked earlier tonight. There's, I think, about 47,000 comments on that post, and wouldn't be sure, a lot of them -- everything is negative. It's all Trump's own supporters calling him out saying, dude, you got to do something about this. That's really unusual to see on that platform.
PHILLIP: So, Phil, why on earth would Trump be so eager to stop this from coming out, especially given that he knows how important it is to his base?
PHIL WILLIAMS, HOST, RIGHTSIDE RADIO AND JUST RIGHT PODCAST: Yes, so speaking as a member of MAGA Frankenstein I'll just tell you, I don't think it's going near as deep as some would be led to believe. I'm looking at this and thinking Dan Bongino probably had the best commentary in the aftermath of this most recent kind of distress over it. He said himself, as a former pundit, he said, I used to get paid for my opinions. Now, I get paid to have to deal in facts.
There's a whole lot of difference involved with having to govern over something as opposed to --
PHILLIP: Then why is he threatening to quit?
WILLIAMS: Well, the reality is what was an angry statement made behind closed doors that he has not admitted to but Trump's already said, nah, Dan's fine. And Trump's come out and said, Bondi, she's good.
Look, and, by the way, this is not just an apologetic statement. For years, I've wondered what's in the Epstein files. I would like to know if there's more. But I agree with Charlie Kirk's statement a moment ago. I have an administration that I personally trust, that I'm willing to recognize has what -- and I'm also an attorney. And I recognize too that the chain of custody on these documents the amount of hands it's gone through, the fact that it sat at the Southern District of New York for so many years, I look at it and think, there's a whole lot of things worth questioning here before you start releasing whether allegations against someone's name could defame them for life.
PHILLIP: That's so interesting, because -- I mean, I think it's so interesting because after all these years of like it's the deep state and they're hiding it and it's the Democrats hiding it, now, it's like, well, maybe there's some good reasons to not release it. Which, by the way, let me play this, this is from the Fox interview that Trump did about a year ago in 2024. And, incidentally, Fox, I'm going to play two parts of it, one is the actual thing that he said, and then the other one is what Fox decided to play, and you be the judge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you declassify the Epstein files?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Yes. Yes, I would.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.
TRUMP: I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know if -- you don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there, because there's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world. But I think I would, or at least I --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you think that would restore, help restore trust?
TRUMP: Yes. I don't know about Epstein so much as I do the other, certainly about the way he died. It'd be interesting to find out what happened there, because that was a weird situation and the cameras didn't happen to be working, et cetera, et cetera.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you declassify the Epstein files?
TRUMP: Yes. Yes, I would.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Attorney general, what are you -- that -- I mean, we talked about how you fix the DOJ.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Man, talk about deceptive editing on an issue that --
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Isn't that what sued CBS and 60 Minutes over?
PHILLIP: It's so important to the Trump --
WILLIAMS: Did they get a Pulitzer for this one?
PHILLIP: But also, I mean, I think that people perhaps justifiably are wondering, since when is Trump worried about the collateral damage of releasing information as long as he's not implicated?
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I want the files released, if there are direct files, if we have information of some of the individuals who may have harmed young girls who are survivors, I think the American people should know.
It is interesting to me that someone like Epstein accumulated a wealth in the hundreds of millions. This wasn't a spectacularly intelligent guy in terms of investments or equities or ETFs and yet very intelligent, sophisticated, wealthy people somehow, and for some strange reason, hired him to manage their money when they had access to some of the most incredible investment groups and individuals and thinkers in this country, particularly in this city, to do just that.
So, why would those individuals trust this random guy to manage so much money for nothing? It just seems strange. And Maxwell is in prison for only trafficking women for Epstein, I don't believe that. I believe there are certainly other individuals, maybe Democrats and Republicans alike and other powerful men who may have been involved.
[22:10:00]
And at a minimum I agree with Trump in saying you don't want to inadvertently defame people, but the DOJ can investigate this further. And if there's a reason to bring charges against those men, I think the American people on both sides would applaud and be in agreement.
PHILLIP: Yes. But Trump is stonewalling. There's no question that.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. And I think that that is what I think gives people, I think, on both sides a lot of pause, because up until now, this is something of their own doing. They hyped this up during the campaign as one of the things, right, that was going to be a focus of what Trump and Trump's administration was going to do for accountability, for transparency. And now all of a sudden, after even Bondi says, it's on my desk, I'm about to release it, you know, tomorrow, right, big news, and then there's nothing. So, who is on there that they are so concerned about that they don't want to release it?
And before that they used it as a weapon to against Democrats thinking that they could own the libs with this, because thinking, I think, to your point, you said this, they think there's a bunch of Democrats on there, and there might be. So, now, Democrats, including Leader Jeffries is saying, yes, let's release it. Let's focus on transparency, which I think is a very smart thing for Democrats to do.
I mean, they --
SINGLETON: It's convenient mow. I mean, Democrats controlled over for four years.
CARDONA: They have focused on making sure that if Trump is going to be talking about transparency, then we're going to call him out. You know, I mean, that's insane.
NAVARRO: I find what Jeffrey said today, to make -- to be incredibly logical, right? They've been talking about this for years and years. And now that they don't want to release it and make it public, it leads to two conclusions. You pick one or the other. Either they lied and they've been lying and hyping up and promoting lies, or there's somebody on that list that they -- or more than one that they don't want to be made public.
But, you know, what I have found interesting is that whenever Donald Trump gets into some sort of trouble and he wants his base to move on, he's been very successful in doing that so far, right, until now. He has tried to throw everything at the wall trying to distract his base and get them to move on. Remember, last week we were here talking about suddenly the DOJ investigations on Comey and Brennan. Then over the weekend, Pam Bondi announced that she was firing 20-plus prosecutors who had been part of the January 6th prosecutions. Then Donald Trump, all of a sudden on Sunday, wakes up and picks a fight with Rosie O'Donnell. I think she's not related to you, but she's living in your homeland, right?
WILLIAMS: She deserved it, every bit of it.
O'SULLIVAN: She's having a great time.
NAVARRO: Why does she deserve it? Because she's speaking her rights? Do you think the president of the United States has the right to revoke somebody's citizenship?
WILLIAMS: I think that was a fair target.
NAVARRO: Do you think he has the right to revoke somebody's citizenship?
WILLIAMS: I can still remember her swooping the hair.
NAVARRO: You said you're a lawyer.
WILLIAMS: I am.
NAVARRO: Okay. Well, guess what? He has no constitutional authority.
WILLIAMS: I think she absolutely -- she earned the spot.
NAVARRO: She has no -- he has no constitutional authority to revoke the citizenship of a natural born citizen.
WILLIAMS: Oh, she earned the jab though. She earned the jab. And he knows she did.
NAVARRO: Do you think the president of the United States, while he is in the middle of war, while we're in the middle Trump tariffs --
WILLIAMS: But the reality is she certainly earned the jab.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: All right. I don't know how we got on Rosie O'Donnell but --
(CROSSTALKS)
NAVARRO: Because it's a distraction.
PHILLIP: Hang on.
NAVARRO: It's an attempt at distraction.
PHILLIP: Look, she's left on her own. So, there's no reason to deport anybody.
But, you know, MAGA commentator Benny Johnson, like Charlie Kirk, all of a sudden has also changed his tune. He said he just got off the phone with a top federal law enforcement contact. The chain approach to Epstein has been dramatic. Expect disclosure, some very powerful people inside the admin are now pushing for a special counsel and a full press briefing on the Epstein findings. A special counsel?
SINGLETON: Again, that would be a step in the right direction. It would be.
PHILLIP: Wait, a special counsel? That sounds like basically what the government says when they want you to --
SINGLETON: Well, I mean, again, if you're legitimately worried about incidentally, accidentally defaming people that shouldn't be defamed, a lot of celebrities was on the plane with Epstein at various points to get to different events, two presidents, including the current president, have been around him in the past. And so I think investigating those individuals, making sure that your ducks are in a row before you start dropping names makes all the sense in the world. And so why not have formalized process?
PHILLIP: If that had been done by the Biden administration, don't you think all hell would've broken loose?
SINGLETON: But why? Why? That doesn't make.
WILLIAMS: I think we would've applauded that, that they were finally doing their job.
PHILLIP: Wait. You are saying you would've applauded Joe Biden saying, oh, I'm not going to release the Epstein files, but I'm going to appoint a special counsel to look into it, after the MAGA world has basically determined that this was, you know, the be all and end all of all things?
WILLIAMS: And there is still a ton of legalities. I mean, I have a duty to go ahead and point out. There's a ton of legalities still.
[22:15:00]
Alan Dershowitz gave an interview earlier today on another network, and he pointed out that there's a great deal of things that are still redacted and court ordered that cannot be disclosed.
PHILLIP: There are many things that can be disclosed.
WILLIAMS: And they can be. But right now, a lot of what we're talking about, the things that everybody wants to know, we got to know the names. You got to know the names, but you got to also recognize that the Trump administration does not necessarily have the authority to undo what a judge has said.
PHILLIP: I guess, I want to let Donie get in on this because -- but, hey --
CARDONA: What the judges say.
PHILLIP: Hey, Phil, I actually agree with you. I just think that it's wild that the people who were like they're covering this up are all of a sudden, you know, they found, you know, come to Jesus and it's like they realize that maybe there's a process that should be gone through for some of this stuff.
O'SULLIVAN: I mean, also what has Trump ever cared about accidentally defaming somebody? I mean, did he accuse Ted Cruz's dad of being part of the JFK assassination? Look, I think second -- one thing why Trump support are confident that there's nothing bad about Trump in this is because perhaps, accurately, they believe that if there was, the Biden administration would've probably put that out there.
But I will just say finally the --
PHILLIP: I mean, I take that point, but I also think that it is just as possible that the Biden administration would not have done.
NAVARRO: You're talking Merrick Garland.
WILLIAMS: Why do you say that?
PHILLIP: Well, look, I mean --
CARDONA: And Joe Biden.
PHILLIP: I think that, look --
WILLIAMS: I mean they leaked his tax records. They did everything they could have destroy his life, to bank records. PHILLIP: You mean like individuals within like random people within the Biden administration? Is that what you mean? Because, I mean, it's possible that any sort of whistleblower could have done it then could do it now, but it hasn't happened. There could be a whistleblower right now in the Trump administration. Why haven't they done it?
CARDONA: Yes.
SINGLETON: I just -- I think, politically, though, I mean, I was an opposition researcher, you cannot tell me that there isn't someone engaged in the political shop if they were made aware that the current president's name was on a list involving Epstein and younger girls that they wouldn't have leaked. I just find that hard to believe. There's no way, if I were a Democratic strategist and I saw that, hell, yes, we're going to use that. So, I just don't believe it.
PHILLIP: All right, last word.
NAVARRO: You know what's interesting though? Remember that in the first Trump administration, Alex Acosta, the then-secretary of labor lost his position due to Epstein and the sweetheart deal that he had given him when he was the U.S. attorney in South Florida. So, it'll be interesting to see what happens to Bondi. I don't think she's going anywhere because I think he's got a lot more loyalty and it's mutual with her than he did with Alex Acosta, who he didn't know when he named. But Epstein lives on.
PHILLIP: It goes all the way back. This goes all the way back to the first Trump term.
O'SULLIVAN: And I will just say what makes this all so interesting is that, I mean, Dan Bongino is not going to be the deputy director of the FBI forever. But as Tucker Carlson made the point on a podcast today, Bongino had a good life with his podcast set up. And the calculation here is that, you know, he has spent years peddling and grifting off this whole idea of Epstein, et cetera. So, that's the calculation. He's got a podcast career to go back to.
PHILLIP: And just quitting in protest is a great way to re-launch your podcast career especially one that was incredibly lucrative.
Donie O'Sullivan, thank you, as always.
Next for us breaking news, mass firings are underway tonight by the Trump administration after the Supreme Court gave them a green light. This as Barack Obama is telling Democrats to toughen up and stop whining. Another special guest is going to be with us in our fifth seat.
Plu,s new revelations about Alligator Alcatraz. We're learning that hundreds of immigrants being held there have no criminal records at all. We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00] PHILLIP: Breaking news tonight, mass firings are underway at the Department of Education after the Supreme Court gave Donald Trump a green light to continue his layoff sprees. This decision enhances Trump's ability to use presidential power, something that one of his predecessors says -- something one of his predecessors says is a warning to Democrats to rise up against.
Barack Obama spoke at a private fundraiser and he told Democrats this, quote, I think it's going to require a little bit less navel-gazing and a little less whining and being in the fetal position, and it's going to require Democrats to just toughen up.
Brad Polumbo is with us at the table. President Obama at these events often has some advice. I'm not sure he is all that vocal himself, but do you think he's right?
NAVARRO: I don't know who he is talking about. Look, there's certainly been a lot of finger-pointing and infighting. And I get frustrated when I hear Democrats talk about, you know, what you did wrong, what you did wrong. I want to re-litigate things that don't get you to the point of how do you defeat Donald Trump.
But I actually think having been at the No Kings protests with a lot of Democrats, what, last month, a few weeks ago, there were protests in thousands of cities, millions of people out there protesting in small cities and big cities, small protests and huge protests, defying the fear, defying the reign of terror and retribution that Donald Trump is trying to impose on America. And so I think people are doing it.
I don't know that this idea of let's find a Messiah that leads Democrats out of the wilderness is going to work. I think he's right on that. But I see daily people rising up, amplifying the abuses that are happening under this administration and fighting back in their own ways, whether it's on social media, whether it's showing up in a protest, whether it's showing up to vote in some of these special elections.
[22:25:12]
I see them doing it.
BRAD POLUMBO, CO-FOUNDER, BASEDPOLITICS: No. I mean, I understand what you're saying. I think you're definitely being hyperbolic. You talk about a reign of terror when the doomsday alarm from Democrats or from media critics is always at a ten. It doesn't hit the same, honestly.
And I think Obama's falling into the messaging trap. The issue for Democrats is not just the messaging. A lot of them seem to think that, well, if we just got the messaging right, America would love our ideas. Actually, no. A lot of their ideas are deeply unpopular. The Democrats have allowed themselves to become the party that stood in almost uniform behind child sex changes across America.
CARDONA: That's just not true. POLUMBO: I'm sorry. I can explain it in 30 seconds how true it is. Joe Biden brought Dylan Mulvaney to the White House for an interview talking about how important it was to keep those procedures legal in all 50 states. Every Democrat after the recent Supreme Court decision, almost every Democrat in Washington put out a statement decrying it that states would dare regulate puberty blockers being given to 11 or 12-year-olds. On the border, on inflation, there are many issues where it's not a messaging issue, the policy is also the problem for Democrats.
CARDONA: So what I would say is that on that piece, that is not true. Democrats did not campaign on that. Did Democrats defend the dignity of the LGBTQ, including the trans community? Yes, and they will continue to do that. What I will say --
POLUMBO: Transition to minors is not --
CARDONA: What I will say is that Republicans totally used that issue, completely weaponized, lying about what Kamala was running on, lying about what Democrats were lying on, and they did it brilliantly and we didn't fight back enough.
POLUMBO: I think they were nasty. I think they were toxic in their rhetoric. But it wasn't a lie. The underlying claim was not a lie.
CARDONA: And what you see in all of the polls is that Democratic policies absolutely are incredibly popular.
WILLIAMS: Yes, when you guys --
(CROSSTALKS)
CARDONA: Making sure to keep millions of people so that they can have their healthcare so they're not kicked off of their healthcare, making sure that seniors, veterans and children be able to eat because Republicans want to steal the food, taking it out of their mouth.
POLUMBO: So, here's a question. Should people who are ineligible for Medicaid be removed?
CARDONA: Democrats want to defend that.
POLUMBO: Should people who are ineligible, for example, their income is too high --
PHILLIP: Who? Who do you mean are ineligible?
POLUMBO: Well, the CBO estimates that millions of the people who would be removed by the big, beautiful bill, it's a fact people would lose their healthcare, it's because they are literally ineligible for Medicaid because of the income requirements.
CARDONA: That's not true.
(CROSSTALKS) PHILLIP: Let me just make one quick point on that and then I'll let you in, Phil. I mean, I think it would be a little disingenuous to suggest that that is the bulk of the people.
POLUMBO: It's several million.
But it's -- I mean, out of 11 -- somewhere between -- hold on. Somewhere between 11 and 17 million Americans are estimated to be losing their insurance. That population is not a majority. It's not the lion's share. So, there are a bunch of different types of people who would lose insurance and most of them are not ineligible. But, Phil, you were joining in?
WILLIAMS: Yes, thanks. I think, first of all, there's no way in the world to say that Democrat policies are winning the day. They're not. They're not. They would've won the election had that been the case. The reality is Republicans took both the popular vote and the Electoral College. This was a sweeping win. They even took the battleground states, and nobody can deny that. That was the actual result.
But then the other piece of this is, what Democrats are sorely lack in right now, aside from policy that stands up, is they're lacking in true leadership. They don't have a -- to use your point, they don't have a central figure right now to rally around. And that's actually hugely important.
PHILLIP: Isn't that what Obama is saying? Don't wait for one person?
CARDONA: Until we get --
WILLIAMS: You have to wait for one person. But right now, who is the leader? There is no one right now who is saying to the world, I lead the Democrat cause and I will rally everybody up and I will bring them everybody --
CARDONA: You know, if we actually needed that, then we would not be winning.
WILLIAMS: You do need that. You do need that.
(CROSSTALKS)
WILLIAMS: You're not, absolutely. But --
SINGLETON: That's not unprecedented.
CARDONA: It's because the candidates are running on the policy that are kicking --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Shermichael, go ahead and then we'll go back to them.
SINGLETON: That's not unprecedented when a party has had a sweeping electoral victory for the opposite party that's in a minority to see successes in some of these off-elections. You know that as a strategist, as well as I do.
CARDONA: Okay, but what does that mean You said that if Democratic policies were winning the day, we would've won the election.
SINGLETON: You guys would have.
CARDONA: Okay. Well, we're winning elections now. So, why can't you say our policies are winning the day?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold a second.
CARDONA: You can't have it both ways.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on. Phil and Shermichael, hold on a second. Maria I genuinely want to understand what are policies that you think are working?
[22:30:00]
Because the truth is that the tail end of the last election was about Donald Trump. So, what are the policies that there then, that are here now that are -- were there then that are here now that are suddenly very popular for Democrats?
CARDONA: The policies are the ones that will allow millions of people to keep their health care. The policies -- the policies that Democrats --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You mean a message that is anti the Big Beautiful Bill's Medicaid cuts?
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: It's not really a policy.
CARDONA: It's not just that. It's that Democrats believe that healthcare is a right, not a privilege. That is why you see the ACA is more popular than ever before. That is the Democratic policy. The Democratic policy that says that working class people and middle class families should be the ones to get the majority of the tax cuts, not billionaires and -- and big corporations.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I guess --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. My only quibble with this is that it just doesn't seem like there's anything being put on the table that is not in opposition to what Trump is doing.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Because I think -- because -- because, okay. So, let's be realistic, though. The Democrats don't have the White House and they don't have either house of Congress. So, nothing that they propose right now even sees the light of day and the most they can do right now is to oppose something.
I am hoping that next year, there will be policy debates between Republicans and Democrats running for Congress, and we will get to hear real policy differences and policy proposals. Also, I want to respond to you saying that I was hyperbolic --
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
NAVARRO: -- when I talked about a reign of terror.
POLUMBO: Who's idea was it hyperbolic?
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: No, it might be hyperbolic for you as a white man.
POLUMBO: Oh, okay. So, we're being racist now.
NAVARRO: It's certainly not hyperbolic for me as a Latino.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: No, I'm not being racist.
POLUMBO: It's -- to discredit my opinion for being --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: No, I'm not dismissing your opinion.
POLUMBO: Yes, you are.
NAVARRO: I am telling you that what Latino -- the Latino community, the brown community in America.--
POLUMBO: A lot of them disagree with you. You may not speak in one voice with them.
NAVARRO: Okay, well, let me speak with my voice. And you said I was being hyperbolic.
(CROSSTALK)
POLUMBO: Until you insulted me racially, sure. NAVARRO: I 'm not -- being a white man is an insult?
POLUMBO: When you invoke it to dismiss my --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Being a white man is an insult?
POLUMBO: When you invoke it --
NAVARRO: I -- do you think -- do you --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: -- think Latinos are living under certain circumstances that other people might not be right now in this country?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I'm going to pause on this conversation because we're -- we're about to have a whole conversation about that very thing. But I just want to make a point that Brad -- all she's saying is that her view of the situation is different from yours. I don't think that's an insult.
POLUMBO: She basically said, I'm wrong because I'm a white man.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: No, no, no. She just said, I see it differently. She said -- she said I see it differently from you which is not an insult. It's not. And it's also not a racial insult.
(CROSSTALK)
POLUMBO: It's also not an explanation why I'm wrong.
PHILLIP: But we have a lot more to discuss on this very topic, so we'll have some time in the next segment. Up next for us, are the immigrants being held at Alligator Alcatraz really who the Trump administration says that they are? Apparently, they're not. We'll debate that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:37:28]
PHILLIP: Breaking tonight, as Donald Trump's detainments and deportations come under fire, "The Washington Post" is reporting that ICE is declaring millions of immigrants who are here illegally ineligible for bond hearings. That means ICE would hold them for the duration of their proceedings, which could take months or even years. Now, this comes as new reports shed light on one of the detention
facilities called "Alligator Alcatraz". "The Miami Herald" and the "Tampa Bay Times" obtained the list of 700 people who have either been detained there or are scheduled to be sent there. But hundreds of those people have no criminal records and in many cases, just immigration violations.
That's -- despite the administration and the state saying the people who they'll be sending there are the worst of the worst -- monsters, gangsters and deranged psychopaths. A group of lawmakers who recently visited and received a limited tour of the facility sounded the alarm on the conditions that they witnessed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MAXWELL FROST (D-FL): We saw humans being held in cages, 32 people per cage, three toilets in each cage for these 32 people, and their drinking water comes from the toilet. And I got to tell you it was very emotional to be there for all of us to hear that, and to see that our taxpayer money is being used for this, used for this stunt. This has nothing to do with what they tell you it is and it's all a cruel stunt. Cruelty isn't just the point, it's the strategy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
So, when the Trump administration says that they're sending the worst of the worst there, why are they sending people with no criminal records?
WILLIAMS: Well, listen. First of all, when I was in the state Senate, we had a -- ICE detention facility in my district. I was involved with several aspects of, you know, the different things that have to be done and the grants that were required and the upgrades they had.
Every federal detention facility, every one of them goes through the same exact stringent requirements. These people are getting three hots and a cot. They're not -- they're not being abused or not being tortured. They're getting better conditions than I had when my team lived in Afghanistan.
So, the reality is the idea that they are somehow being abused as people, having their humanity stripped from them is a misnomer. I reject that -- haven't been to that one yet, but I've been -- I've to them before.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: Well, then, you can't opine --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I don't have to walk in the door to know what the requirements are for the federal --
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: This -- this one, apparently, is -- this one apparently is an abomination.
WILLIAMS: -- No, according to the realities, not an abomination.
CARDONA: I talked to of the members of Congress who went down there.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely -- it's absolutely --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me just read -- look. Let me read -- let me say one thing.
[22:40:00]
First --
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
PHILLIP: -- the Trump administration says what you're saying, okay? That's the official line. But the lawmakers who visited say other things. Here is one Venezuelan detainee who spoke to the "Associated Press" and said, "The conditions that we are living are inhuman," a Venezuelan detainee said by phone from the facility. "My main concern is the psychological pressure they are putting on people to sign their self-deportation."
The man, who asked not to be identified for fear of reprisals, characterized the cells as "zoo cages" with eight beds each, teeming with mosquitoes, crickets and frogs. He says they are locked up 24 hours a day with no windows, no way to know the time.
There also been reports that lights are on 24 hours a day, people can't sleep. And -- and the implication here is that the -- the -- they want to create conditions that are so unpleasant that rather than be deported through a process, people to sign away their rights, and -- and get --
(CROSSTALK)
POLUMBO: Abby, I'm actually horrified with what you just described, but I want to attach the biggest -- because I think due process is a human right. I think that these are basic elements. Everyone should be treated with dignity in federal detention. But it's the biggest, if true, ever. Because we need to actually verify this. I'm actually seeking to see if I can go this week in -- I live in Florida, and I'd like to report there myself.
The Democratic lawmakers, you have on one hand the Trump administration officials saying it's fine, it's up to par. On the other hand, these Democrats, I don't really believe anything they say when it comes to Trump. I've had Democrats tell me, that net neutrality within the internet.
I've had members of Congress -- Ayanna Pressley, many others say that Trump was bringing back segregation, verbatim say that. So, the credibility in the bank, I want some independent verification of what's going on in this facility.
CARDONA: They should let the media in.
POLUMBO: I agree.
NAVARRO: They should absolutely let the media in. Why aren't they letting the media in? Don't they think there's a reason for that?
(CROSSTALK)
POLUMBO: Well, they have let some reporters in, but -- they have let some reporters in.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Oh, you can see pictures that -- that -- you can see show what Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the congresswoman --
CARDONA: Yes.
NAVARRO: -- and Maxwell Frost, the congressman from Florida are saying, which is that there's 32 beds in a small area, that there's three toilets. Those are things that are easily verifiable. Look, the --
PHILLIP: Can I just ask one quick question? If this is supposed to be such a pleasant place, why did they bother to call it "Alligator Alcatraz"? Why did they bother to put it where it is? Like, I'm not understanding. It doesn't -- it doesn't fit.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: A lot of what's happening with immigration is performative cruelty as part of a strategy. Whether it's sending people to a gulag in El Salvador. Whether it's deporting people to places like Sudan that have no ties to Sudan, where there is a civil war going on. Whether it's using military uniform, aircraft. Whether it's this "Alligator Alcatraz". It's about scaring people.
But, you know, I -- Donald Trump's numbers -- approval numbers on immigration have gone down dramatically. And I think part of it is because the American people voted for criminals and gang members to be deported and to be prosecuted and to be gotten rid of. I agree with that.
What they are seeing is that it's legal permanent residents -- what they are seeing is that it's mothers and fathers and children, and teenagers, and people who play with their kids at a school, and people who work at farms that -- then we eat the food.
(CROSSTALK)
POLUMBO: But Trump did promise to do exactly that.
(CROSSTALK) POLUMBO: I didn't support it but he wasn't -- he never said or he may have said it a few times but his actual platform was always mass deportation --
CARDONA: That's true.
POLUMBO: -- not just the criminals. So, when people say I didn't vote for this, you actually kind of did.
PHILLIP: Well, I guess --
WILLIAMS: And I don't know of any Republican either who didn't.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, I think you're right that he'd campaigned on mass deportations. But if you also listen to those rallies, he repeated ad nauseam that these were the worst of the worst, the criminals, that they had cleared out their insane asylums which he seems to think --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- the same thing as asylum. Let me just read one more thing. And Phil, I promise I'll let you in, and then I'll let you -- you haven't spoken at it all. So, an immigration attorney Kate Blankenship said she was turned away after traveling to the remote facility, waiting for hours to speak with clients, including a 15-year-old Mexican boy with no criminal charges.
Her client -- Arroyo's client and another -- another attorney is a 36- year-old Mexican man who came to the U.S. as a child has been at the detention center since July 5th after being picked up for driving with a suspended license." Another attorney -- "Eig has been seeking the release of a client in his 50s with no criminal record and a stay of removal, meaning the government cannot legally deport him while he appeals."
So, many people it seems are there. Some of them are in a process. Some of them were out here as children and are being sort of pushed into saying, sign away my rights, send me -- send me back somewhere.
WILLIAMS: So, several things. One is, the self-deportation is actually, I mean, they're paying each one $1000 and sending them with a free plane ticket. So, self-deportation is really not a scary thing.
[22:45:01]
But the reality is --
PHILLIP: I don't think that's the point. I think the point is --
WILLIAMS: That is the point.
PHILLIP: -- that people have lives here. Maybe some of them are trying to build their status, et cetera. Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: A moment ago, the left side was portraying somehow that the self-deportation was somehow weighing in hard and pressing down on people. It's like saying, hey, if you'll do it this way, we'll even pay you to go. How awesome is that? Here's a free ticket and a flight home.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on, Phil. But just be awesome -- just to be honest, I mean, I understand what you're saying but just remember, we're talking about human beings here.
WILLIAMS: We are.
PHILLIP: Some of them have families, they have jobs --
WILLIAMS: We're also talking about the rule of law.
PHILLIP: I get that, too, but I'm just saying, the way you're describing it, it's like just -- just get on a plane and here's $1000.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, these are people we're talking about. We're not talking about, you know --
(CROSSTALK)
SINGLETON: If you it in context -- if you put it in context, Barack Obama utilized detention centers --
CARDONA: Not like this.
SINGLETON: George H.W. Bush used detention centers. George W. Bush used detention centers. Ronald Reagan used detention centers.
PHILLIP: The existence of detention centers is not in this picture. Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
SINGLETON: This has been a norm and -- and to me, it seems like this is the best way to facilitate removing people who have violated our immigration laws or in our country illegally, to send them back home. Now, I would agree with Ana that we shouldn't send people to places where they have no family origin at all. That just makes zero sense to me.
But we should absolutely send people back to their country of origin and say there's a process to enter into the United States and you must follow that process. We cannot be a country that just allows people to come whenever they want. That just doesn't make sense.
(CROSSTALK) NAVARRO: Some of these people aren't here. A lot of the people that being -- a lot of people that are being held are not here illegally, because if you're a legal permanent resident who's being detained because of some traffic issue or because they got -- you got caught with weed 20 years ago, you have been here legally as a legal permanent resident.
If you have been here under temporary protective status, that is status. If you came in to the country with a parole, you were paroled legally into this country. And so, they're making them illegal. They're making them --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, we absolutely have to go now. Sorry, Shermichael, but we've got to go now. Coming up next for us, the panel is going to give us their nightcaps, extreme makeover edition. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:51:52]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap, makeover edition. NFL coaches will be sporting new headphones on the sidelines this season. Sony's upgrade includes noise canceling technology and microphones to conceal lip movements. So, what else in society needs an extreme makeover? Shermichael, you're up first.
(CROSSTALK)
SINGLETON: You didn't tell me I was going to be first. So, that's okay. No. I want to get rid of the National Firearms Act. It attacks suppressors. It attacks short barrel rifles. It attacks short barrel shotguns. And this made it difficult for working class people specifically of color, who wanted to buy firearms, certain types of firearms. They couldn't purchase them because they didn't maybe have the extra 200 bucks to pay for the tax.
PHILLIP: To buy a silencer?
SINGLETON: Suppressor -- yes. And by the way, in the Scandinavian countries, they recommend it because it's good for hearing. So, why not in the U.S.?
PHILLIP: All right. Go ahead. Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Loving that. I'm loving that.
PHILLIP: Maria.
CARDONA: We need to make over passwords. Password mayhem, Abby. Every time I try to go into Hulu or Apple and it makes me sign in, what the hell is my password? I don't know. Sometimes my daughter calls me, mama, what is the password to Disney Plus? I don't know. She doesn't know. We have to go over again and again to try to get in there.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: The future is passwordless.
WILLIAMS: I'm for that. I'm for that.
POLUMBO: Sony needs to get working on the ICE machines because I have moved to three different apartments or homes in the last few years. Every single one -- the ice maker in the refrigerator never works. The ice maker in this office doesn't work.
(LAUGHTER)
POLUMBO: No shade.
SINGLETON: They'll call us out here, Brad, okay?
PHILLIP: Phil, I think you're next.
WILLIAMS: Oh am I? Okay. So, I'm torn. I had a couple of things here but I'm going to go ahead and go with -- I think the thing that needs to be reformed is the degum (ph) AutoPen. I mean, I am -- I am ready to see the AutoPen just go away. Never use it again. Nobody. No administration. We're about to have AutoPen gate. So, I say -- I say, let's reform society. Make society safer. Get rid of the AutoPen. PHILLIP: Ana?
NAVARRO: I want to remake grocery carts. I was at the grocery store this weekend and I hadn't been for a while, I usually Instacart. Man, I couldn't find one cart that worked. Some squeak so much, you want to die. The wobbly wheels, the wheels facing the different direction. Some are so rusty you think you're going to get tetanus if you so much as touch them.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
NAVARRO: We need to have a better way to shop.
PHILLIP: Yeah, you're so right. I was in the grocery store today and I was like, this is disgusting.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Are they not the most disgusting thing in the world?
PHILLIP: Disgusting.
SINGLETON: And they never wipe them down, by the way.
WILLIAMS: Oh, no.
PHILLIP: All right, everybody. Thank you very much for being here. Coming up next, CNN speaks with Jeffrey Epstein's former attorney, who also happens to be one of Donald Trump's former lawyers. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK))
[22:29:04]
PHILLIP: And a quick note before we go for those of you who may have missed the announcement. My debut book, "A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power", it will be released this fall on October 28th. This book is about an important piece of American political history. It's the story of Jackson's two fascinating and groundbreaking presidential campaigns in 1984 and 1988, and how his campaign changed the Democratic Party.
They supercharged black political power in America and paved the way for the country to finally elect its first black president, Barack Obama. This book takes another look at Jackson's political legacy more than 40 years later, and I cannot wait for all of you to read it, but I need your help. Please scan that Q.R. code on the screen to pre- order the book today.
And thank you for watching. Thanks for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on social media -- X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" is right now.
[23:00:05]
