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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Criticizes Own Supporters For Epstein Focus; MAGA Stars Intensify Criticism Of Trump And Admin Over Epstein; Prices And Inflation Rise As Trump's Tariffs Begin To Show; Trump Tells Texas To Blow Up To Essentially Congressional Maps; Gov. Newsom Uses Explicit Language In A Talk Show. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 15, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, headwinds for Donald Trump's tariff economy. Are rising prices just a blip or the first drip?
Plus, they demanded the files, they promised the files, and now Republicans vote to hide the files, as the president floats another excuse to keep Jeffrey Epstein a mystery.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I would say that, you know, these files were made up by Comey. They were made up by Obama.
PHILLIP: Also, MAGA looks to make Texas redder by blowing up the midterm map.
TRUMP: I think we get five and there could be some other states.
PHILLIP: But liberals call foul and threaten revenge.
And as Democrats try to jumpstart their relevance, they're getting dirty with cars and purses.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Mother (BLEEP) Joe, I'm a Joe Rogan fan. No, (BLEEP) that's what I don't like about this song (BLEEP).
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Tiffany Cross, Shermichael Singleton, Julie Roginsky and Dan Abrams.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, President Trump's Epstein problem. It's the self-made crisis that just won't go away. And no matter how hard Trump tries to make it disappear, it keeps snowballing because, for some reason, he doesn't want to reveal the files that he promised to, the files that his angry base is demanding.
And now he's throwing everything at the wall to get the story out of the headlines, trying to find something, just anything that will stick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I would say that, you know, these files were made up by Comey. They were made up by Obama. They were made up by the Biden -- you know, we, and we went through years of that with the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax.
I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff. It's sorted, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it keeps going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Sources have told CNN that Trump and his team are hoping that the whole controversy dies down, although you may not know it if you listen to him talking about it from morning until night.
But as Trump keeps it in the spotlight, others in his administration are trying to forget about it. Here's what Attorney General Pam Bondi said tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Nothing about Epstein. I'm not going to talk about Epstein. I'm going to be here for as long as the president wants me here. And I believe he's made that crystal clear.
It's only on topic, guys.
Our memo speaks for itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: They're doing a heck of a job keeping this out of the headlines, Dan.
If you wanted to stop people from talking about these Epstein files, Trump blaming it on his political enemies, claiming that it's boring, there's nothing to see here, and then Pam Bondi just trying to dodge it, none of that would make all of this go away.
DAN ABRAMS, FOUNDER, MEDIAITE YOUTUBE: Right. I mean, look, they're not helping themselves, but let's be fair, they're being asked about it again and again and again and again. And that's understandable, right, considering all the circumstances here. But I don't think no matter what happens here, they're ever going to get -- the MAGA base that wants this is ever going to get the answers they want, right? They want names and they want a client list, right?
We know what the black book is already. The black book is the list of the victims. That's the black book. We know he had a black book and it was a black book of the victims, okay? Then you want talk about another list. It doesn't seem there is another. There's friends of Jeffrey Epstein's, there's associates, there are flight logs. The problem with that is Donald Trump is on the flight logs.
It doesn't mean he did anything wrong, but the reality is, if you want to say, I want to see every flight log, you know, we know Donald Trump was flying with his kids, his infant at one point from Teterboro, New Jersey, to Florida on Jeffrey Epstein's plane. That's not helpful to Donald Trump politically. And as a result, if they're going to demand that everything connected with Epstein be released, it will include some stuff about Donald Trump.
JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: But you don't know that because, first of all, we don't know what the victim testimony is. There are women -- the part that I don't understand is Ghislaine Maxwell is sitting in prison right now for trafficking women -- young girls, excuse me, that were not women.
[22:05:02]
Thank you for pointing that out. Did she just traffic them to Epstein or did she traffic them -- or did she -- well, wait a second, or did she traffic them to other people? If so, who were those people?
ABRAMS: But let's not pretend we don't know anything about the case. She was tried. All the evidence came out. We know about the civil cases against her. We don't know what was redacted, what wasn't.
ROGINSKY: What we don't -- well, first of all, what was redacted is what we need to know. But we don't know, we certainly don't know what some of these girls had to say about who they potentially slept with. We don't know the answer to that.
ABRAMS: We actually do.
ROGINSKY: And we don't actually, because we don't know there's video of this. We don't know what Epstein had. We don't have access to any of that.
ABRAMS: Wait. This is like saying like, oh, you know, there might be this and there might be that.
ROGINSKY: There might be. We don't know.
ABRAMS: It's true. There might be, but there's no evidence of this.
ROGINSKY: We don't know. Bring it out.
PHILLIP: The underlying point that Dan is making is that the secrecy is to protect Trump.
ABRAMS: No, a little bit. I mean, I don't think it's secrecy. I think Trump's right. I think Trump's right. There's nothing there. Trump's right on that.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Wait a minute here, Dan. So, you think that the 200 young girls who testified in Florida, it was 200 victims or survivors, I don't like to use the word victims, you don't think that those young girls slept with men? You don't think that those men were doing incredibly bad, wrong things to them, harming them? Not just Epstein.
ABRAMS: Right. But what's the evidence? I mean, you're asking --
SINGLETON: Survivors of --
ABRAMS: You're asking me to use common sense. So, there must have been multiple assailants, right? Says who?
SINGLETON: Says, the survivors, man.
ABRAMS: No, that's right. The ones that --
SINGLETON: The survivors.
ABRAMS: They've spoken out, have talked about the people involved.
PHILLIP: But hold on, Dan. How do we know that there were not -- I think this is the whole point, right? The whole point is people want to know if there were other people. If the files substantiate what you're saying that there are not other people, that's what people want to know.
ABRAMS: There are other people.
PHILLIP: And here's what Nikki Haley -- Nikki Haley weighed in on this. She says, release the Epstein files, this is Nikki Haley, and let the chips fall where they may. This is why people don't trust government. You can never go wrong with being transparent, redact the victim's names, but release the rest.
I mean, Scott, this was -- this is the right that the deep state, they don't trust the government, they don't trust the people at the FBI and whatever, and they thought that when Trump got into office, he would address that by just releasing what can be released, let the chips fall where they may, and he's not doing it.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, today, I heard him say, anything credible. Sure, let's release it. Now, the question is, what can the attorney general release and what is not releasable. It's opaque to me, you know, what they have and then what falls into those two buckets. That's number one.
Number two, it looked to me like today the president was sending his signal like, okay, fine. If there's something that's releasable and it's credible and it doesn't hurt any survivors and it doesn't implicate people on, you know, second and third or hearsay, then go ahead and do it.
ABRAMS: They don't want them to --
PHILLIP: And who gets to decide that?
JENNINGS: The attorney general, right? I mean --
PHILLIP: The attorney general who doesn't want to release any of it at all?
TIFFANY CROSS, HOST, SAY IT LOUDER!: But that to me is part of the challenge, to be honest, and I know this doesn't follow the echo chambers of, you know, cable news, but, quite honestly, the people who believe in pizza gate are not only driving what our government focuses on, but what legacy media focuses on. I've seen the breaking news banner all day about the Epstein files this, Epstein files that.
And if we are so focused on sexual abuse, I just think the whole reason this became a big deal is because people, his base, thought the Clintons were involved. So, this became like blood to them. This was red meat to them. And the tofu that it actually is right now, that Pam Bondi's like, oh, never mind, let's everybody move on. If we're so concerned about sexual abuse of minors in particular, I'm curious if we can just shift focus on actual sexual abuse that happened.
Southwest Key Programs the largest shelter of migrants, minors, they were accused of sexual abuse multiple times during Trump's family separation programs in 2017 and 2018. In March, the Trump administration completely shut down a lawsuit that was going to hold this, quote/unquote, non-profit accountable. If we are so concerned about sexual abuse, then where is the outrage from this MAGA base on that, the issues that actually matter.
But instead, we are all being led by the nose, by this tiny base of people, this MAGA base of people, the same people who followed the Pizza gate conspiracy, they are dictating what we're talking about all day across legacy media.
And it is really frustrating to me to witness this because, yes, I'm not saying that Epstein is not an important case, then let the DOJ pursue it. That doesn't mean that we should be ignoring the more -- the 10, 15 more important stories that are happening, but instead, this tiny group, cable news executives are like, no, this is red meat. Let's focus on this. And it seems like a disgrace.
(CROSSTALKS)
SINGLETON: I think we can chew gum and walk at the same time. JPMorgan Chase --
CROSS: But we're not chewing gum and walking at same time.
[22:10:00]
SINGLETON: JPMorgan Chase settled almost $290 million I believe with victims or survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and whoever were his compadres in this despicable, heinous acts against these young women. They didn't settle for absolutely nothing, one of the most powerful banks in the country, and arguably in the entire world. Epstein's estate settled millions and millions of dollars for a reason.
And so my argument here is, regardless of your thoughts about Trump, regardless of your thoughts about the MAGA base, I think everybody at this table would agree that those young girls who are now women should have their day in court in terms of justice. And we have to --
CROSS: what about the migrant young girls who were sexually abused?
SINGLETON: You know what? I want them to have --
(CROSSTALKS)
CROSS: Because his base voted for damage for somebody else. It was this Epstein case --
SINGLETON: I don't if you can say that in totality.
CROSS: Of course, they did. Of course, they did. They didn't care about child separation --
SINGLETON: So, do you not care about it, though? Do you not care about it?
CROSS: I don't think it is the most important story right now.
SINGLETON: But is it an important story?
CROSS: It is an important story. It's not the most important story. It doesn't trump, pardon the pun, it does not trump other more important stories that are happening.
PHILLIP: I just want to say that, Tiffany, what you're hitting on is something that in our CNN polling that we asked voters about this, first of all, about half of the people that we polled said they're unsatisfied with how much they know about Epstein. But what's interesting is when you look at the partisan breakdown of it, more Democrats than anybody else says that they are dissatisfied with how much has been released.
Republicans are at 40 percent and some of that is probably because there's a split. You know, there are people who side with Trump and then people who side with, you know, Benny Johnson and Charlie Kirk, but you don't get a Benny Johnson and a Charlie Kirk and a Tucker Carlson without Trump.
Those people are extremely powerful in this ecosystem, not because cable news executives made them, but because they helped create what we know as MAGA and Trumpism, and so Trump has to answer to them to some degree.
CROSS: But we are letting them drive the narrative respectfully, Abby. Like we are letting them say this is the most important.
PHILLIP: I mean, first of all, I just want to defend -- not to defend cable news, but I just want to say, you know, you watch this network all day long, we are covering all kinds of stories from all around the globe, nobody is saying this is the most important story in the country.
CROSS: But it's been the breaking from the banner all the day.
ABRAMS: Yes, that's right.
PHILLIP: From a political perspective --
CROSS: But there was no breaking news banner, Southwest Key Program --
PHILLIP: From a political perspective, Donald Trump --
CROSS: -- (INAUDIBLE) to have been abused. And that is an important story too.
PHILLIP: From a political perspective, Donald Trump and his administration are dealing with this issue right now. The head -- the deputy director of the FBI is thinking about quitting his job over this issue. I mean, you might not like Epstein --
(CROSSTALKS)
ROGINSKY: Dan Bongino has been complaining nonstop about how hard he has to work and he wants to go back to his podcast as well.
PHILLIP: Well, that's is true.
ROGINSKY: But I will also say this.
SINGLETON: Where are you getting that from?
ROGINSKY: From Dan Bongino, who complained about it nonstop.
SINGLETON: No, I'm just asking like what outlet reported that. I haven't seen --
ROGINSKY: Legitimately, he --
PHILLIP: He appeared on Fox News and talked about how he's working from 7:00 A.M. to 7:00 P.M.
SINGLETON: I was just curious.
ROGINSKY: No, it was Dan Bongino. But --
PHILLIP: Dan, did you -- go ahead, last word.
ROGINSKY: The only thing I'm going to say about this is Charlie Kirk and Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham and all the people who were, and I think you were down there too, right, at Turning Point USA, all those people who are professional grifters because they make their money off of Donald Trump and incurring favor and having access to him, have all of a sudden walked back everything they said over the weekend. And Charlie Kirk himself was like, oh, you know, I heard from the president and no longer do I have any questions about this. I'm going to let my friends in the White House handle this. I don't have any questions.
But the base, who are not grifters, the base who are true believers, because, as you said, they have been fed mother's milk of conspiracy theories going back to Vince Foster 30 years ago, those people want answers. And the problem for Donald Trump is Charlie Kirk and the people at Fox and Tucker and all of these people who all of a sudden are like nothing to see here, everything we said over the weekend is not a big deal anymore because they got a call from the White House, are now out of step with the very people that they have ginned up for the last 30 years, whether it's Pizza gate, whether it's Vince Foster getting killed by Hillary Clinton and, you know, go back to the Clintons, going back to 1992, if not earlier.
And that's the problem for Donald Trump, is that the people, who he talks to, which are Rupert Murdoch and all of his friends in MAGA sort of royalty, are not the people who are in step right now with their own viewers and their own listeners.
SINGLETON: Well, Charlie did come out today and actually said that he wants the names released. So he changed --
PHILLIP: He's flipped and he's flopped and he's flipped and he's flopped. But to your point, it's hard to put this genie back in the bottle.
But next for us, inflation and prices, they are going up. As economists say, Trump's tariffs are starting to show up in the numbers. We'll debate what they mean.
Plus, MAGA wants to make several states redder by redrawing Congressional maps, and Democrats are suggesting they're trying to rig the midterms.
[22:15:00]
That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Is this just the calm or the start of a storm? Ever since Americans were told they were liberated in April, the economy stabilized after a shock to the market, and it's largely been resilient to Trump's tariff rollercoaster since then. But tonight, after inflation rose last month, economists say that we are now seeing Donald Trump's tariffs pushing up the prices.
But if you watch MAGA media, you heard something completely different.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX BUSINESS ANCHOR: You've got to look at this report as another victory for President Trump who has focused on reining in inflation.
[22:20:03]
And that's what we're seeing from this report again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's happening in this CPI has very little to do with tariff, market tariff goods.
STUART VARNEY, FOX BUSINESS ANCHOR: What effect are tariffs having on prices?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Almost zero, Stuart. I mean, almost zero, literally.
LARRY KUDLOW, FOX BUSINESS ANCHOR: This is nonsense baloney. The lefty media is using tariff hysteria to cover up Jay Powell's gross mismanagement and frame Trump.
JOHN CARNEY, FINANCIAL JOURNALIST: The economists are blowing this because they think inflation is going to -- they think tariffs are going to push up inflation.
KUDLOW: No tariff inflation. That seems to be the consensus here on set, and the consensus on set is always right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Consensus on set is always right. We'll see about that.
The Wall Street Journal is reporting also that the labor department is relying more on fuzzier math to compile its data on prices and on unemployment because of staff shortages brought to you by DOGE cuts.
So, those two things beg the question, what is really going on with the economy right now? Contra what you just heard from those pundits on television, the consumer price index show that a lot of things went up, coffee, steak, chicken, apples, oranges and tangerines, apparel, household furnishings, audio, electronics, new vehicles went down slightly, but toys went up. Some of these are the highest increases that you've seen in inflation on some of these issues in years.
So, there's clearly price increases happening, and at the same time, Trump is doubling down on tariffs and also we don't know exactly how accurate any of this data is, one way or another, I should be clear.
JENNINGS: I think it's a mistake to do this cherry-picking. I mean, men's suits, men's underwear, boys' shoes, girls' shoes, women's outerwear, bananas, tomatoes, tea, outdoor equipment, I think they go down. These things were falling. These things are falling. Gas prices are at a four-year low. I think, my view --
PHILLIP: Okay. But also, I mean, the top line number is an increase in inflation that actual economists, not the ones that play one on T.V., say, is due to tariffs. So, in addition to what you're saying, obviously, not all prices are going up, but they're going up enough that it's showing up in the numbers.
JENNINGS: Look, here's my view. The core CPI forecast was 3 percent. It came in at 2.9. For the five months of Trump's administration, inflation has matched or beat expectations. The economy is booming with new investments. There's a lot to be proud of and what they have accomplished. Locking in the permanency of the tax cuts is a good thing. And so the Republican, White House view of this right now is to be bullish on America. And when you look at the people who are investing in this country, massive companies, massive investments, it's outrageous what he's been able to generate so far.
So, I do think the panic over this report today is unwarranted, but I do think data's worth watching every month. But it seems like a lot of panic for no reason, you're getting matched reports everywhere.
ROGINSKY: It's not panic when we were promised on August 15th of last year that the price of eggs, that the price of bacon, that the price of apple -- actually eggs year-over-year are -- sorry, year-over-year are up 20 --
JENNINGS: Last year.
ROGINSKY: Yes, are up 27 percent.
JENNINGS: They took office, they're down.
ROGINSKY: Year-over-year.
JENNINGS: He promised when he took office, they would go down.
PHILLIP: Hold on, let's not fight about statistics here. She's right, year-over-year, they are up significantly. Month-over-month they've gone down. But that's from their high, which occurred partly due to bird flu and other things. So, continue.
ROGINSKY: So, let's be very clear. He promised three things. The price of eggs, the price of bacon, and the price of apples were going to go down. I can quote him. It was on August 15th of last year. He said they're going to go down almost immediately when I become president. All of them are up. They're up year-over-year, and that's a fact.
And these -- you know, you think it's hysteria or whatever you called it, people are suffering. You know how I know this? Because I heard all about that from you last year when I would debate you and you kept talking about how the price of eggs is really high. Well, guess what? It's much higher now than it was when you and I were debating.
JENNINGS: We're literally lying about eggs.
ROGINSKY: Hey, excuse me, they're up.
JENNINGS: The eggs are down. The eggs are down.
PHILLIP: Guys, stop. Okay, Scott, before you accuse her of lying, I literally just went over this, she is correct, that year -over-year, the price --
JENNINGS: Since Donald Trump took office, what happened to the eggs?
PHILLIP: Oh my God. Do you not understand that the difference between --
JENNINGS: Who was the president last year at this time?
PHILLIP: Scott, do you understand --
JENNINGS: And then when did they spike?
PHILLIP: Julie, let just resolve this so we can move on because this is silly conversation.
JENNINGS: You totally derailed this conversation. I'm just trying to have a serious --
PHILLIP: Scott, no, Scott, you are derailing the conversation.
JENNINGS: No, I'm not.
PHILLIP: Pardon me.
JENNINGS: She's not telling the truth about the eggs.
PHILLIP: Pardon me, but you're derailing the conversation, okay? I think people have the ability to understand the difference between the price of eggs today and the price of eggs a year ago today versus what you would prefer to talk about, which is the price of eggs when Donald Trump was inaugurated. You're just talking about two different --
JENNINGS: Are we talking about his policies?
PHILLIP: You're talking about two different time horizons, okay? Let's just leave it at that and move on.
ROGINSKY: They made it higher.
PHILLIP: Shermichael, please.
SINGLETON: The top headline numbers are in sync with expectations. When you look at the CPI, you have look in two categories.
[22:25:00]
When you look at goods, we have seen a slight increase in (INAUDIBLE) expectations. When you look at service industry, for the most part, those numbers have remained consistent and resilient.
And so most economists who have alerted, oh, there's some worries about goods, we're a consumer economy. So, for the most part, unless we see the rate for goods increase beyond the decreases of the service economy, I'm not really worried about tariffs having an impact that will lead to a recession necessarily.
We got to track and see what those numbers are ultimately going to be. But so far, the numbers have been pretty good.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Dan.
ABRAMS: Here's the reality, right, is that this was a mixed bag, this latest report, right? There's a little something for everyone to take out of it. On the one hand, it is true, that on the whole, inflation, et cetera, is not as bad as many were saying it was going to be. When the stock market tanked on the initial tariff reports back in April, there was a concern that inflation was going to go nuts as a result of the tariffs. That hasn't happened.
And on the flipside of it --
PHILLIP: But just to be clear, why hasn't that happened?
ABRAMS: Why hasn't inflation happened?
PHILLIP: Yes.
ABRAMS: I don't know the answer as to when.
PHILLIP: Because the tariffs didn't go into --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Yes, but the ones, Dan, I've had this conversation almost every day on the show, the tariffs that Trump announced on liberation day, by and large, did not go into effect.
But here's one thing that is going to happen. Come August 1st, let me show you what Trump has announced will happen compared to what he announced on liberation day. Guess what? The liberation day tariffs are back. August 1st, the liberation day tariffs back and they are back.
ABRAMS: They're not going to happen.
PHILLIP: All right. So, let's actually talk about what's going on here. The market is resilient, the economy is resilient. Is it because the tariffs didn't have an effect or because the tariffs did not go into effect? And if they do go into effect on August 1st, what might happen?
SINGLETON: The expectation from this --
ABRAMS: Go ahead.
SINGLETON: The expectation for the street is that these tariffs are not going to go into effect. That's why you've seen --
ABRAMS: Right.
SINGLETON: That's why you've seen the stock market add beyond $10 trillion.
ABRAMS: You're right, that it's very hard to argue if the most severe tariffs go into effect, that there won't be inflation.
SINGLETON: But the expectation is that it won't go into effect.
ABRAMS: But that's -- but the point is there's a level of sort of treating Donald Trump like a child in that, right, which is to say, well, come on, you're not actually taking him seriously, right?
SINGLETON: But I think most investors would argue --
PHILLIP: And I think it would be a totally rational thing to say, don't take him seriously.
CROSS: Yes. He would --
PHILLIP: Actually, I mean, that's not irrational. I mean, I think he has shown, you can call it a willingness to negotiate if you want to, to be charitable. You can call it a retreat. He has shown a desire to not actually put the tariffs into place at the end of the day.
CROSS: I'm confused, just like a lot of foreign governments are. I mean, as I don't think even they know. They don't have the bandwidth to even negotiate. When these policies first came out, when he was talking about tariffs, the storyline has changed so much. First, it was about fentanyl, controlling the border, then it was punitive to Mexico and Canada. Then it was -- are these permanent? Are they temporary? We have no idea, the unseriousness of this.
So, when we were talking about this, I did talk to a friend from Wall Street and he did sound a lot like Scott, if you think the markets are the bellwether of indicating the health of the economy, then, yes, he was saying, net-net, sure. You know, he gave a lot of credit to Bessent, who was able to sideline Elon Musk and Peter Navarro from some of these policies.
However, when you look deeper, this was also a part of bringing back jobs. There are 400,000 manufacturing jobs that are not being able to be filled because of these tariffs policies.
ABRAMS: But Democrats were citing the stock market back in the day when it tanked, they were saying, look at our 401(k)s, et cetera. And now it's, well, you know, the stock -- you got to take one position. Scott, I'm not saying you. But just, in general, I think Democrats and Republicans have to take a consistent position, either you view the stock market --
SINGLETON: One or the other.
ABRAMS: Right.
JENNINGS: I think might the position must be don't panic day-to-day. During April, after the tariff announcement, we sat here day after day and people were panicking, panel after panel, the market down. Now, the market is up.
Look, for five months, core CPI has met expectations or come in just below it. That is not reason for panic. Is it reason to monitor it? Sure, but nobody has to panic.
PHILLIP: I don't think -- I'm not sure that you're -- what you're actually -- if you saw panic, you would've seen it in the markets today, to your point. But I do think what people are saying is that when Trump asked, why on earth isn't Jerome Powell lowering the rates, the answer is very clearly that it's not an all-clear.
SINGLETON: I mean, so Powell, I get why the president is a bit annoyed with Powell. I would like to see interest rates come down as well, but you need to have some level of predictable stability in terms of tariffs.
And so my advice to the president, and I certainly understand why he's doing this to negotiate, many on Wall Street acknowledge that, we need to have a flat baseline. I think that moves Powell a lot quicker to lowering interest rates would be good for home purchasing credit cards, et cetera.
PHILLIP: He said it pretty explicitly, had Trump not messed around with these tariffs, interest rates probably would be lower by now. And that probably would be better.
[22:30:00]
That would be better - that would be better on the whole for Trump, but, you know, he decided to do this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. We got to go.
SINGLETON: No, I understand a lot of reason behind this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, coming up for us. If you think that you might have a hard time getting it touched down, move the goalposts. At least that's what Trump is accused of doing in Texas to win more votes in the midterms. And he's not the first president to do it. We'll discuss next
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:07]
PHILLIP: The last time Donald Trump tried to redraw a map, he did it with a Sharpie. This time he wants to do it for the ballot box. The President is telling Texas to essentially blow up their congressional maps to find as many as five seats for Republicans ahead of the midterms.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Five. I think we get five. And there could be some other states. We're going to get another three, four or five in addition. Texas would be the biggest one.
UNKNOWN: So, are you -- are you calling in for a complete redrawing of the congressional map?
TRUMP: No, it's just a very simple redrawing. We pick up five seats. A couple of other states where we pick up seats also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Democrats are calling the move desperate and unconstitutional.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEEM JEFFRIES (D) HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: In this country, public servants should earn the votes of the people that they hope to represent. What Republicans are trying to do in Texas is to have politicians choose their voters and undermine free and fair elections.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, what does it signify that Republicans ahead of the midterms believe that -- that it's going to be so necessary to get an upper hand that they have to actually redraw an entire state's congressional maps in order to get five whole seats out of it?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, probably the same thing that it signifies when they did it in Illinois and got a 14-3 delegation for Ds, Maryland seven to one. Massachusetts nine to zero. We know what happened here in New York, California. Even though they have a commission, we all know what goes on there.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: In the -- in the mid-cycle specifically, are all of those cases in mid-cycles?
JENNINGS: All of these cases are where Democrats use the power they have to give them an advantage.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, but just to be clear, because I didn't do the research that you did in the break here. Is it that they're changing it after the actual census process where you're supposed to create a, you know, you're supposed to go through the Congressional redistricting process?
JENNINGS: Does it matter?
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Yes.
UNKNOWN: Very much. Very much.
PHILLIP: I think that's -- the whole point is that --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Is it -- is it --- so, it's okay for Democrats to go up side these states? Nine nothing and -- -- (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: No, no, no. I mean, look. Here's -- here's what I will say about this. I mean -- I mean, I know that, you know, Texas actually has done this before. So, you're right that it's not new. But the point is, is that it's unusual and they're doing it because the midterms are coming. And it seems to suggest that there's a weakness that they're anticipating that they want to get ahead of it.
TIFFANY CROSS, AUTHOR, "SAY IT LOUDER": It's not just because the midterms are coming. It's because the last census told us that from 2010 to 2020, the 95 percent of Texas' population increase has been because of black and brown people in this state. And so, when you redraw the congressional maps, you may have more people voting, but they're voting in gerrymandered congressional districts.
This is why I get so frustrated when people say, oh, just hang on until midterms, as if that's going to change anything. This is an example of a long-storied history in this country of manipulating the electoral process. And we're seeing it play out right before our eyes in Texas. It has a -- gerrymandering is not illegal, racial gerrymandering certainly is. And this is exactly what's happening since SCOTUS obliterated section three and section five of the Voting Rights Act of which Texas has a long history of violating.
PHILLIP: So, back in 2003, this is what we're talking about, there was a rare mid-cycle redistricting. The GOP tried to do exactly the same thing. They were able to do it. It went all the way to the Supreme Court. But Democrats tried to leave the state.
And so, in response to that, Ken Paxton, who is the Texas Attorney General, says that if they ignore their duty to their constituents by breaking quorum, they should be found and arrested no matter where they go. People -- the people of Texas elected them to do a job, not run away and hide like Howard's. He's threatening to arrest them if they leave the state.
DAN ABRAMS, FOUNDER, MEDIATE YOU TUBE: Yeah, look. Gerrymandering is a form of political cheating, right? Let's be clear on what it is. It is political cheating, and both sides do it to some degree. And that should be called out. It should be highlighted.
I don't know that it has enough of a political impact to get people to not do it. But the question becomes, okay, if Texas does it, do the Democrats then go into other states where they don't have commissions as they do in California, which actually could prevent them -- I mean, because Gavin Newsom said something about, well, you know, if they do this, we can do this.
PHILLIP: Do you mind if I play what he said?
ABRAMS: Yes. Yeah.
PHILLIP: Because he talked about this very thing and talked about the means by which they could do it. So, just listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D) CALIFORNIA: I mean, gerrymandering, and let's be fair, we've seen this weaponized by both parties for decades. But these guys, this is a whole another level of weaponization coming from the right. The ground is shifting from underneath us. And I think we have to wake up to that reality. And we can do a special session. I can call for one today, if I chose to. We can then put something on the ballot and I could call a special election.
[22:40:03]
We could change the Constitution with the consent of the voters and I think we would win that. I think people understand what's at stake in California.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's a dangerous road -- gerrymandering. We've already gone down, right? And Tiffany's correct about how the Supreme Court is interpreted, right? It has basically said it's okay if it's for political reasons as long as it's not racial but separating those two can be very difficult, right?
PHILLIP: Especially in a state like Texas --
ABRAMS: Yeah.
PHILLIP: -- to Tiffany's point where the racial demographics are really driving the population growth there.
JENNINGS: How much more blood can they squeeze out of the California -- apparently, there are 43 to nine.
PHILLIP: There nine Republican seats that I --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: They've already done it. That's my point.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
JENNINGS: Big, blue states have already done everything they can possibly do to give them - Democrats -- the biggest structural advantage they can and I hear the whining about Texas today. It's a political process. It's the way it is.
UNKNOWN: Listen.
SINGLETON: And it may or may not work. I mean even, Chip Roy, you know, raised some concerns that you might inadvertently make Republicans who were in safe districts and more competitive districts. And that is something that I -- I kind of worry about.
But I would also say for Democrats, there's just no guarantee that even if you were -- even if Republicans were successful in Texas with redistricting, that Republicans wouldn't be able to win a compelling number of Latino voters to maintain some of their seats or when new seats --
PHILLIP: It's not an argument for Republicans to not, you know, play -- play games with the map. I mean, I think you're totally right that in Texas, in particular, Republicans have performed well --
SINGLETON: Very well.
PHILLIP: -- with Latino voters. So, the idea that they want to fiddle with the maps even more to try to gerrymander it in such a way that perhaps, I don't know if this is what they're going to do, but there is an implication that perhaps one way to do it is to dilute the votes of, you know, minority voters. I'm not sure that would really help them all that.
JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, all we've heard about in Texas is how they perform really well, Republicans perform really well, and they did in the border counties, right, which are predominantly communities of color.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
ROGINSKY: Great. Take it to the voters in a fair election next year. Why do you have to fiddle with something when you're doing well, right? Why can't you just run on your own record and your own argument? I will tell you, they're opening up a Pandora's box because California can change the Constitution. I'll give you a state closer to here.
New Jersey has a very, very, very fair process where constitutionally they're allowed to -- each side picks a certain number of people to serve on redistricting. And then you have an outsider break the tie. The outsider is usually a professor.
Democrats in New Jersey, well no, actually Republicans, actually Republicans did very well with congressional redistricting last time around because of that tie breaker. If you want to change that constitution tomorrow in New Jersey, Democratic governor and the Democratic legislature can change that like that and get rid of that.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: I think it's important for us to admit what this is. The President is referring to picking up five seats as if they're winning five seats, right? It's cheating.
ROGINSKY: Yeah.
ABRAMS: It is political cheating. And I'm not saying just Republicans do it. But I think that bipartisan, we should be saying, this is ridiculous. These ideas of redistricting to this extent, right? Occasionally you have to do it based on the census here. But to this extent, either when Democrats do it and I have called them out for it and when Republicans do it, it is just cheating. It is a way to try to make these states not be representative of the population that actually exists throughout the state.
ROGINSKY: And look at North Carolina. Look what's happening there.
CROSS: North Carolina.
ROGINSKY: North Carolina. We would have had Democrats in the majority right now if North Carolina had not gerrymandered the hell of -- out of their mouth.
PHILLIP: Next for us, extreme makeover, Democrat edition. Will swearing and talking tough actually make voters pay attention more? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:48:33]
PHILLIP: Is the effort by Democrats to reinvent themselves working or is it just producing more cringe? Let's take mayoral candidate Andrew Cuomo for example. He shared this video of himself trying to appeal to real people by doing things like jump starting a car in New York City.
California governor Gavin Newsom, meantime, is taking a different approach. A warning for those of you at home. If your kids are around and still awake, you might want to cover their ears for this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEWSOM: Right there, man. The California exit. By the way, complete (EXPLICIT). I'm not good. I'm great at it, okay? Because I've been doing it for years and years for the (EXPLICIT) record. Joe Rogan texted me.
SHAWN RYAN, "SHAWN RYAN SHOW' HOST: (EXPLICIT)
NEWSOM: Joe -- I loved it. By the way, I'm a Joe Rogan fan. No (EXPLICIT). There's some truth to it, but there's a lot of bullshit about it. And we haven't gotten through it. We haven't (EXPLICIT) -- we haven't -- we don't want to talk about this. Just (EXPLICIT). And to your audience, that anyone would (EXPLICIT) believe that. She was a tough son of a (EXPLICIT). You've seen the clock, you're like (EXPLICIT).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Okay I'm not so sure what that's supposed to signify, but it's something. They're growing beards and they're letting the F-words fly.
ROGINSKY: I want to apologize to my 13-year-old in case he's still awake and watching.
PHILLIP: Past your bedtime.
ROGINSKY: Past your bedtime. Yeah.
ABRAMS: But I will tell you true story about this. I happened to bump into Andrew Cuomo randomly at a gas station a few years ago and he was actually working --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: He was working on his car.
[22:50:00]
And this is when he was not running. He had already been done for governor. And I happened to bump into him at a gas station and he was literally working on something.
PHILLIP: You're blowing a lot of minds right now.
ABRAMS: I'm just -- I'm just --
ROGINSKY: Times were tough.
PHILLIP: Let me -- let me play this other thing. This is - this is Representative Hank Johnson about Jeffrey Epstein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(REP. HANK JOHNSON, D-GA, PERFORMING)
JOHNSON: You've been telling us you'd release the files but where are they? We've gone along with what's been told that plenty of times you're in control. But now you say you will withhold the Epstein flies. Dream sequel on a summer night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: What is happening?
JENNINGS: Now, some years ago, you might remember that the folk singer on your screen, Hank Johnson, said in a congressional hearing that he was concerned that Guam was going to tip over if too many Marines got on one side of the island.
(CROSSTALK)
JENINGS: So, we're not dealing with like a super genius here. These Democrats are weird A.F. I'm not going to say it like Gavin Newsom did. Newsom, Cuomo, this guy, all -- why, why cannot be exactly normal people making up, you know, forced vulgarity, silly singing in your office - why can't they just be normal -- normal --
(CROSSTALK)
CROSS: I've seen the clip of Donald Trump with boom-bing-bing (ph) and all the ridiculous asinine nonsensical comments that he has made. To be honest, I'm not even trying to defend Democrats here. I don't really care. I'm not a Democrat here. But I think we are looking like a very unserious country on - on every side.
And I think this is what one of the reasons why people are so disconnected from the political process. I think if they think, you know, playing a guitar and they're all like, that is not it. I can just tell you right now. That is not it.
UNKNOWN: It's not and I agree with that.
JENNINGS: Agree.
CROSS: But I also think Gavin Newsom dropping the F-bombs. That is not it. People want -- people who are -- who are suffering right now, people who cannot pay their mortgage, people who have been separated from their families, people who are sitting in deportation camps, concentration camps, foreign and domestic, those people do not want to see people --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: That's offensive to Jewish people, by the way.
(CROSSTALK)
CROSS: I --
ROGINSKY: No, it's not. And I'm Jewish and it's not offensive.
CROSS: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGINSKY: It's not --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Every time you say that, I get a thousand text. People do not -- comparing that to the--
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Wild.
PHILLIP: All right. I'll let you finish your point and then, okay. Go ahead, Shermichael.
CROSS: The action of this administration, instead of my language, they should focus on something more important than what i call it - focus more on what's actually happening to people who are getting disappeared by a government agency and none of us should ever normalize that like it's something rational to do.
My point is, this entire asinine scene of people playing cards -- no I won't get the logic of disappearing people, Scott., and I can't believe --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Shermichael --
CROSS: I can't believe you're minimizing people being disappeared by the government. PHILLIP: Go ahead, Shermichael.
SINGLETON: Can I jump in, Tiffany?
CROSS: Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't mind.
SINGLETON: No, listen, it's okay. I mean, I don't think that -- I think you're hitting on an interesting point. I don't think Democrats have a marketing on image problem. I think they really have a policy problem. Now, I may not agree with some of Tiffany's prescriptions to some of the problems and that's, I think that's okay.
But there are Democrats who really do want legitimate solutions to the problems and the critiques that they have about government. And I think a lot of people who are Democrats, I'm not one, but I would imagine if I were to do a focus group, many of them would say that the responses that they're getting from their party aren't real in terms of trying to move the needle forward for them. And so, I think you're right in pointing out that this is not going to be it for Democrats.
ABRAMS: I think that's a little Utopian to believe that it's all based on policy, right? Donald Trump, Donald Trump won in part because of his personality.
SINGLETON: You don't think Republicans care about policy?
ABRAMS: Yeah, I think they cared more-- I think they cared more about the fact that they like Donald Trump better than any other --
SINGLETON: Or did they like Donald Trump's prescriptions to their problem.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: I think -- no.
(CROSSTALK)
SINGLETON: I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that.
(CROSSTALK)
CROSS: They were not dealing with the intellectual voting base. I assure you.
ABRAMS: I think they preferred Donald Trump's attitude. Or they referred his general demeanor over other Republicans. I'm not talking about first the Democrats. I'm talking about other Republicans. You disagree with that?
JENNINGS: I think -- I think it could actually be both. I agree with you. He brought an attitude, you know --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Republicans -- (CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: -- that -- that no one else really imagined.
CROSS: Ask a random Republican that's -- name -- name three policies they like. When you see, like, respectfully, when you see lazy reporters out here asking people, well, why did you vote for Donald Trump? And they say I like his policies. You rarely see a follow-up. You rarely see them say, well, name a policy that you like. Tell me what it is you like about him, because they know like I know, they are incapable answering it.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, I think that what's missing -- what's missing here -- what's missing here from Democrats, obviously, is just a certain degree of authenticity. The problem with all of this stuff is that it doesn't come across as real --
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
ROGINSKY: And - bingo.
PHILLIP: -- and also attached to something that matters to people's lives.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGINSKY: And here - I'm actually going to compliment Donald Trump for a change, probably for the first time in life.
PHILLIP: Yeah, last word. Very last word.
ROGINSKY: He is -- he comes across as incredibly authentic in who he is. You may not like him, but he comes across as that's who he is.
CROSS: An authentic idiot.
ROGINSKY: Right, but authentic to his base.
[22:55:00]
What I just saw on TV right now is not authentic. Now, I've never hung out with Gavin Newsom. I don't know if he curses up a storm in real life. He probably does. So, maybe that's authentic to him, but playing the banjo, whatever the hell that was, that's not necessarily authentic. Why can't people just be themselves? And if they're --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, everyone, thank you very, very much. Just moments from now, the results from a primary election out of Arizona that features a 25-year-old social media star. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:07]
PHILLIP: And a quick note before we go, my debut book, "A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power" will be released this fall on October 28th. This book takes a look at Jesse Jackson's political legacy more than 40 years later. I'd appreciate it if you scan the Q.R. code on your screen to pre-order today.
And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- Instagram, TikTok and X. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
