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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Fires The Messenger After Weak Jobs Report; Only 73,000 Jobs Added In July, The Worst Since Pandemic; Epstein Accomplice Suddenly Moved To Star-Studded Prison; Trump Says Nobody Has Asked Him To Pardon Ghislaine Maxwell; Host Charlie Kirk Talks About Testosterone And Politics. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired August 01, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, in Donald Trump's economy, size apparently does matter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This job report isn't ideal. There's no way around that.
PHILLIP: The bigger the tariff, the brighter the alarm about the cost of liberation.
Plus, Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice is suddenly moved to a cushy new prison one week after meeting with Trump's DOJ. Is this their first gift to a sex trafficker?
And you mad, bro?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do think that there is a direct correlation between someone's testosterone and their politics.
PHILLIP: MAGA mansplains manhood.
Live at the table, Cari Champion, Jim Schultz, Leigh McGowan and Lance Trover.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip for a special edition of News Night. This summer, we are taking the show on some field trips. We're spending our Fridays right here at the Food Networks Kitchen in New York, our sister company, we've got a fabulous chef and friends of the show right here in the studio, and our chef has a special treat for us at the end of the night.
But, first, if you don't like the election results, call them rigged. If you don't like a poll, call them fake. Upset that your name's reportedly in the Epstein files, call it a hoax. Getting heat for bad forecasts, well, whip out the sharpie. And if you don't like the jobs report numbers, fire the messenger.
A pretty extraordinary moment tonight in America after the fewest job gains since the pandemic in June, the president of the United States has now fired the woman in charge of labor statistics, a Biden hack, baselessly accusing her of cooking the numbers to make him look bad.
Now, remember, when the numbers have been good all year, he took credit for it and he praised the jobs report done by the same people he just fired. But facts be damned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, why did you fire the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Because I think her numbers were wrong, just like I thought her numbers were wrong before the election. Days before the election, she came out with these beautiful numbers for Kamala, I guess Biden/Kamala, and she came out with these beautiful numbers trying to get somebody else elected. Then right after the election, I think, on the 15th November, she had an $800,000 or $900,000 massive reduction, said she made a mistake. No, that woman's number is up.
REPORTER: Do you have any evidence?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He is totally wrong about that. Days before the election, the economy added only 12,000 jobs, well below expectations. Now, that's terrible. They're also revised down the previous month's numbers. So, if they were trying to juice Biden's numbers, it was the worst executed conspiracy of all time. So, welcome to 1984, where Donald Trump just placed a cherry on top of George Orwell's chilling prediction for the world, telling you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears, and while you're at it, get rid of the people who are creating the data.
I mean, at the end of the day, this is a different story from what's happening with the economy. It's a story about whether or not there is to be any trustworthy economic data to be had under this administration.
LEIGH MCGOWAN, HOST, POLITICSGIRL PODCAST: Or not even just economic data. I mean any data. He seems to be getting rid of statisticians and climate people and weather experts and scientists, and anyone who doesn't agree with what he wants to tell or what he wants to say. It's like we're getting very close to the end of being able to trust anything this government says. And I think that should really alarm people.
PHILLIP: Lance, you know, Trump is manufacturing this story about, you know, claiming that Erica McEntarfer tougher actually tried to help the Biden administration when, in fact, she did -- if she did anything, which she didn't, it would look like quite the opposite.
[22:05:07]
She actually revised the numbers down right before the election, like literally days before the election.
So, why is he lying about this?
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, look, I'm in the boat that thinks -- I mean, there's a lot of people talking about the economy being bad. I don't think it's that bad. We saw great GDP numbers this week. We saw consumer spending was up. Yes --
MCGOWAN: This the worst economy in 15 years. What are you talking about? That's what the number is saying.
TROVER: How do you explain the 3 percent GDP increase that happens this week? How do you -- consumer spending is up. Come on, Leigh, let me finish.
PHILLIP: I mean, look, I don't know that I would say that this is the worst economy.
TROVER: Well, no, of course, that's absurd.
MCGOWAN: For a three-month period, it is.
TROVER: We saw the worst of the worst with Joe Biden when inflation 25 percent.
PHILLIP: There are some red flags about the overall health of the economy, yes, but we just don't know yet.
TROVER: Yes.
PHILLIP: Which is why Trump's overreaction is bizarre.
TROVER: I do think, and everybody's out there calling him Xi Jinping and all this stuff, it's a classic overreaction to what he's doing. I'm not saying what he did today is not a serious act that he has put off, but the fact of the matter is this person, whoever he chooses, will have to go in front of the Senate and be confirmed. The Senate will do their due diligence. So, we will have somebody new come in here to take the place of this person. The Senate will do their job to be confirmed. It's not some oligarchy, whoever --
MCGOWAN: The due diligence that the same Senate that just put Emil Bove in as --
TROVER: There's been several people the Senate has rejected. My point is whoever he chooses will have to go through the due diligence of our U.S. Senate and our confirmation process.
PHILLIP: I mean, her point is well taken that this is not a Senate that has stood in the way of almost anything that Donald has wanted.
TROVER: The Senate has not wanted approved Matt Gaetz. They've rejected the D.C. -- (CROSSTALKS)
TROVER: John Thune this week said, I'm not going to end the Senate blue slip process that the president wanted done. But let's just go back to this.
MCGOWAN: This is a rubber stamp Senate.
JIM SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: The head of the Bureau of Labor statistics is not the same thing as getting rid of the entire bureaucracy, right? So, the bureaucracy behind that goes nowhere. They're career folks, they're going nowhere. They're not getting fired. The people who come up with the numbers are the same people that are going to be coming up with the numbers, whoever leads that agency, whoever the figurehead is that leads that agency, it's his choice to make that pick. That person has to, again, withstand scrutiny of the U.S. Senate. And then if Congress wants to step in and manage this through oversight, they have every ability to do that, guys.
PHILLIP: So, what message is Trump trying to send? Because he's trying to send a message and he's been super clear about it.
TROVER: Well, I think he raises a very valid point.
PHILLIP: What message is he trying to send?
TROVER: I think he raises a very valid point about these revisions of numbers. I know that is standard in what they do. But whether it was under the Biden administration or whether it's under this one, today's was 258,000 jobs. We talk about giving certainty to businesses and this economy. What kind of certainty is it to say --
PHILLIP: Do you understand how the labor statistics surveys work?
TROVER: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: But then if you did --
TROVER: So, how are they off by that much?
PHILLIP: Because they are doing surveys. They're doing surveys to try to understand the labor picture in the United States. And as the months go by, they get more information from employers, from households, and they add that information to get a more accurate picture of what happened in the prior 30 days. So, it's actually a statistical process that is designed to in, real-time, correct based on new information.
TROVER: So, we can't question that process?
PHILLIP: It's quite the opposite of what you're suggesting.
TROVER: No, we can't question that process?
PHILLIP: The revisions are not a cover up. Revisions are transparency. TROVER: I'm not arguing with the president's arguing. I'm saying if they're off by 800,000 up or down, or 258,000 this time, what kind of certainty is that?
MCGOWAN: Okay. It's not survey. It's science.
SCHULTZ: Why can't you do a better job and so you don't have to have those revisions, right? And, by the way, what's wrong asking that question?
PHILLIP: William Beach is the former Bureau of Labor Statistics commissioner under Trump, Trump appointed him. And he also served under Biden for two years. So, Biden had a Trump appointee for two years. He said it's totally ground -- the totally groundless firing of Dr. Erika McEntarfer, my successor as Commissioner of Labor Statistics at BLS, sets a dangerous precedent and undermines the statistical mission of the bureau. This is a guy who knows what he's talking about.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, this is not the first time over the last time we will see this. To your point, rubber stamp Senate, I think that your questions and your ballots and your talking points are all great, but at the end of the day, this is the nature of where we're trending.
If you go against him, he does not like it. It's really simple and I hate that we're talking over it like it's much more complicated. We've seen it happen before with other appointments. When people say to -- when people disagree with this man, the president of the United States, he takes it really personal. And it's almost as if it's a temper tantrum. And the way in which he does his -- I guess, his reckoning, if you will, there is a judgment process that says if you don't fall in line, you don't get to be a part of this administration.
Please don't look at me like I'm making something up. That's the part that really frustrates him. I know, but in general, when people are saying, but how is that true? Of course, it's true. It's really simple and you cannot deny it on.
SCHULTZ: The president has the right to pick his team, right?
TROVER: Yes, absolutely.
SCHULTZ: He's the president of the United States. He was duly elected. He has a right to pick his team.
CHAMPION: He has the right to pick his team but he can't fire people if they disagree with him.
(CROSSTALKS)
CHAMPION: He can do whatever he wants, but there's accountability that does not happen.
SCHULTZ: You say he can't.
CHAMPION: He can do whatever he wants.
PHILLIP: Jim and Cari, just for one second, I want us to really take a beat on this. I don't think the question at all is whether Donald Trump can do this.
[22:10:00]
The question is whether he should, you know? Lance is trying to make this about the revisions and whether it's accurate and whether she's doing a good job or not. Donald Trump was super clear. He didn't like her number, so he fired her. He said that. So, the question is, do we want a president who doesn't like the numbers and then fires the people that gives it to them? Is that what you want this country to look like?
SCHULTZ: So, we want the numbers to be accurate, right? I think everyone sitting here wants the numbers to be accurate.
PHILLIP: Is there any evidence that the numbers are not accurate?
SCHULTZ: Is it wrong? I mean, you said it earlier. Is it wrong to be questioning the numbers? Is it wrong to try to get someone to do better?
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Hold on a second.
SCHULTZ: I'm going to ask those questions.
PHILLIP: It's fine.
SCHULTZ: But he has the right to put the person in there that he thinks is going to do the best job.
PHILLIP: It's fine to question. It's fine. Anybody can ask questions. It's fine to question things, but don't you think you ought to have actual evidence of wrongdoing before you claim that it is rigged against you?
SCHULTZ: Can I bring this back to executive power again?
PHILLIP: No, you actually cannot, because this has nothing to do with executive power. It's not about executive power. It's about whether or not he -- is there any information that can be presented to President Trump that is negative about him?
SCHULTZ: Do you know what was presented to President Trump with us?
PHILLIP: Yes, I do, because it was published to the entire world at 8:30 A.M. this morning. The numbers are not secret. They're public. So, Trump saw those public numbers and he said, I don't like these numbers. I want this lady fired.
SCHULTZ: And if he doesn't want a Biden appointee in here and he doesn't trust that Biden appointee, it's well within his right to change that person.
PHILLIP: So, the next --
MCGOWAN: that is very detrimental to the American public who needs the correct information. We need the correct information --
(CROSSTALKS)
MCGOWAN: We need the correct information on climate. We need the correct information on what is happening with our healthcare. But we're not going to get the correct information on anything because your man keeps firing people if he doesn't like the answer.
PHILLIP: Do facts matter?
CHAMPION: Yes. Do they?
PHILLIP: Lance, do facts matter?
TROVER: I didn't dispute the numbers. What I said to you was that if is nothing wrong with -- if you come in --
PHILLIP: Hold on. Take it all the way back. Do facts in this situation matter?
TROVER: Facts matter in every situation.
PHILLIP: Okay. Should somebody be fired for presenting factual information to a president?
TROVER: I think that is not the prerogative of the president of the United States. It goes back to --
MCGOWAN: Geez. You guys have tied yourselves in knot. My God, it's exhausting the power.
TROVER: he could do what he wants to do.
SCHULTZ: That person serves the president, can remove that person from office.
MCGOWAN: He serves at the pleasure of the president, and the bottom line is manufacturing numbers are in the negatives. This is the worst economy we've had in the last three months.
SCHULTZ: Now, we're talking about (INAUDIBLE).
MCGOWAN: The worst job numbers. And you can fire the woman who said so, but it doesn't go with the facts.
CHAMPION: You cannot do that her. You can't.
SCHULTZ: So, now you're going to overstate where the --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I'm not going to characterize how bad the economy is or good the economy is compared to other years, because I think it's, frankly, too early to know. But what I do know is that the economic performance of this economy is actually, factually much worse than the economic performance of the economy just a year ago. GDP, job numbers, by those --
TROVER: Inflation?
PHILLIP: Oh, inflation is basically the same as it was a year ago, but the jobs are lower and the GDP is also lower.
So, those are the facts. We still have two more quarters to go in the year, but the question now becomes who's going to be running the BLS and what kinds of facts are we going to have as Americans and consumers, and can we trust it?
Next for us, Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice is suddenly moved to a cushy new prison just days after she met with Trump's DOJ. The survivors are furious tonight as their fear that she is getting special treatment for a mysterious reason seems to be coming to fruition. Another special guest is going to join us at the table.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: From a facility that houses gang members and violent criminals to club fed, tonight, just a week after meeting with Donald Trump's former personal attorney, Todd Blanche, Ghislaine Maxwell is being moved to a minimum security prison camp in Texas. Maxwell is serving 20 years on federal sex trafficking charges as part of a years-long scheme with Jeffrey Epstein. Other inmates in that camp include a former Real Housewife of Salt Lake City, and Elizabeth Holmes, formerly of the blood testing company, Theranos.
In a statement, family members of Virginia Giuffre, one of Epstein's most outspoken victims and other survivors of Epstein and Maxwell, responded today with outrage, saying, quote, Ghislaine Maxwell is a sexual predator who physically assaulted minor children on multiple occasions, and she should never be shown any leniency. This moves smacks of a cover-up. The victims deserve better.
Joining us in our fifth seat is CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig. He is a former federal prosecutor. Elie, this is extraordinary and I mean. I still have so many questions, just really basic ones about what exactly they're trying to get out of her, but the fact that they're giving her this move seems to -- it seems like leniency from the very beginning.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So, let's think about the timing here that we know has played out over the last couple weeks. First of all, Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, the number two person at the whole Justice Department, goes personally to Florida, spends nine hours speaking with her over two days.
Now, we don't know yet what she told him. I think we will, and we can talk about how that'll happen. And now here we are less than two weeks later and she gets this enormous benefit. Now, we don't know exactly why. It could be for security reasons, but it's a benefit, any way you cut this, right? Do you think if Todd Blanche, who, by the way, I should note Bureau of Prisons, is within the Justice Department, do you think if Todd Blanche was dissatisfied with something Ghislaine Maxwell said, or had doubts about her credibility, she would've gotten this benefit, she would've just got bumped from low security to minimum security?
[22:20:07]
That's an enormous benefit. I promise you, everyone behind bars federally right now would love the same thing. So, you can already see where this is going. This is the first delivery of a benefit to Ghislaine Maxwell.
And, by the way, keep this in mind when we're thinking about Ghislaine Maxwell's testimony and her credibility. Who does she need to please here? DOJ and the guy who has the ability to pardon her. So. I think we can see at what's starting to take shape here?
CHAMPION: The prison that they have, and I just have this question I saw earlier, they normally don't house people who are sexual offenders, correct?
HONIG: Right, very good point. So, this is what we would call -- we would colloquially call a camp in the federal system, the BOP's written guidelines say, if you've been convicted of a sex crime, as Ghislaine Maxwell surely has, you are not eligible to go to the kind of prison she's at now unless you get a special waiver. So, I want to know, was there such a waiver? Who did it come from? And, again, remember, all of this falls under Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche. It's in their house.
I mean, if they were trying to put to rest a conspiracy about Donald Trump's involvement in this Epstein saga, I cannot think of any worse way to do that. Why are they feeding this?
TROVER: Well, one, she's terrible and deserves to be in prison and should be in prison. I hope she stays in prison. I feel terrible for that family. I hear what you're saying. I could also see another way as there is a great demand from both political parties now to get everything out into the open, documents, you name it. And everybody wants to hear from her. They want to hear the facts. She's not just going to spill the beans of her own volition if she's not going to get something in return. So, as much as I would just say that sucks, I mean, that may be the role that they have to play.
I'm not suggesting she deserves a pardon, but if part of her deal is to get a better place to be housed in prison, I mean, and she's got a lot of stuff to say, then that could be --
MCGOWAN: Can I ask you a question about that then? Because as far as I know, Ghislaine is a known liar. She lied through her depositions. Her word means basically nothing. She's a convicted sex trafficker. And then we have at least 26, if not 28 living victims. We have all the photo evidence, we have video evidence, we have call logs, we have flight logs. Why wouldn't we be looking at the evidence and talking to the victims instead of talking to the woman who is actually already convicted of this crime and is a known liar?
HONIG: So, you perfectly anticipated the point I was going to make. She's lied under oath. I mean, she was deposed under oath and asked, what do you know about Jeffrey Epstein and sex trafficking and minors? And she said, I don't know anything about that, whatsoever, right? And the question, to your point about, you know, will she spill the beans? I mean, do we believe the beans that she has to spill?
TROVER: I think that's the question. I agree with you completely. I'm not suggesting that I even agree with it, but I'm just saying that --
PHILLIP: Jim?
SCHULTZ: -- is to get -- is to find more prosecutions, right? It's to corroborate evidence. Understanding she's a known liar, to try to get more evidence, to try to use leverage in order to get that, for the men that raped these children, because that's what they were, they were children, to try to get those men and put them behind bars. Then the fact that he's talking to her for that amount of time, the fact that he's gaining information, that's, in my view, the right thing to do.
I do agree, she should stay behind bars as long as she's been sentenced to.
MCGOWAN: And that's the --
PHILLIP: The other piece of this, Jim, is that Donald Trump seems very concerned about him himself here. And I think there's a lack of trust from some people that this whole scenario, if there was anything embarrassing or otherwise about the president in there, there's no universe in which that would be a result of this leniency that they're offering Ghislaine Maxwell.
SCHULTZ: The information from the (INAUDIBLE) is protected, right? It's not grand jury information. It could eventually find its way into the grand jury if they open up another investigation, which if the idea here is that you're going to -- that they're going to release this information that she gives out because the public, Democrats on the right -- on the left, Republicans on the right, MAGA wants to see it, that's not a good reason to do it. A good reason to gather that information is to open up a new investigation.
This is not going to yield one document, in my view, anytime soon that's going to be turned over to the public outing the men that rape these children.
PHILLIP: That's like the last step in the process, Elie.
CHAMPION: Are we going to have any of this?
PHILLIP: Isn't this the last step in the process? You have a trove of documents at the Justice Department right now that has all kinds of information in it. And then they jump all the way to an interview with Ghislaine Maxwell and offering her leniency in exchange for that interview.
HONIG: To your point, and I agree with Jim. If this results in actual DOJ federal prosecutions of other criminal wrongdoers, then I can live with it. It's not going that way. Trust me, I taught -- I literally taught the course on cooperating witnesses at the Justice Department. She's not going to be a fully signed up cooperative. There is not going to come a day where some federal prosecutor, like I once was, is going to stand up in the court and say, your Honor, for our next witness, we call Ghislaine Maxwell to the stand.
[22:25:05]
PHILLIP: Why you say that? Why do you say that?
HONIG: Because she's a convicted child sex trafficker, because she's lied under oath. Because when you -- and, listen, like I've called murderers to the stand, but you can convince a jury that they're telling the truth, that they should take that person's word. Ghislaine Maxwell, a jury will reject her so fast for what she has done.
CHAMPION: What's the endgame then as to why she's -- why do we move her to the camp? Why did they move her to the camp?
HONIG: Well, she -- her endgame is clear, right? She doesn't want to die in prison.
CHAMPION: But what's his endgame here?
HONIG: Well, now I'm going to speculate. We can -- you know, I believe that we went -- to Jim's point, I believe that we will learn the summon substance of what she told Todd Blanche maybe through an FBI memo being released, maybe through testimony. I also believe that Todd Blanche does not walk into that room to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell unless and until he knows that she's not going to say something devastating to Donald Trump.
And, by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. Like I've gone into those rooms, you always ask the defense attorney, what does she have here? Give me a sense. There's nothing wrong with that, but he's not going to go in there and take the risk.
PHILLIP: If they are going to investigate this seriously, why is there not an investigation, like a real investigation? Why is it that the deputy attorney general, who is not usually doing this kind of thing, why is he going? Why is there not a team of rank and filed U.S. attorneys who are looking into this? I'm just confused. This whole process makes no sense.
SCHULTZ: Let me get back to your first question, which is why the documents there now aren't just being released, right? Those documents can be used for further investigations. They are protected under grand jury secrecy rules. So they can't release -- yes.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. SCHULTZ: The ones that were part of the original investigation.
PHILLIP: Do you agree with that, Elie, the documents in that --
SCHULTZ: A lot of those documents are properly subject to grand jury investigation and they to be released by a judge.
PHILLIP: The documents that are under the DOJ, you're claiming that they're under a grand jury seal of some kind?
SCHULTZ: Sure. A lot of them processed --
PHILLIP: Okay. Elie, I would like your other theory (ph).
HONIG: Some of them, a very thin slice. In fact, we learned this week, a couple days ago, the total number of documents that are grand jury testimony in the entire Epstein-Maxwell files is the testimony of two witnesses, two FBI agents. That's how we do it federally. You call an FBI agent, they take the stand, they summarize the case. You're not calling every victim and witness. So, a small sliver of these documents are technically grand jury.
You know, it's hard to put a number on. It couldn't be more than 10, 15 percent of the total file. That's grand jury. You're right, that requires a judge to sign off. And so far the only judge to consider has rejected it because it's not within the rules where you would unseal it.
The rest of it though, the whole rest of the file, the healthy majority of the file, is not grand jury and could be released at Pam Bondi's wish and will, and she's chosen not to do that. And, by the way, Donald Trump, earlier tonight, there's a clip of him saying, we're releasing everything, that's just not true.
PHILLIP: We're going to hit pause on this conversation. We have much more after this. Trump just talked about the potential pardons for Maxwell, Sean Diddy Combs, and George Santos. We will discuss that.
Plus, are men who voted MAGA manlier?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our republic needs alpha men.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:32:37]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROB FINNERTY, NEWSMAX HOST: Ghislaine Maxwell is serving 20 years in prison for sex trafficking. Is clemency on the table for her in exchange for testimony?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNTED STATES OF AMERICA: I'm allowed to do it, but nobody's asked me to do it. I know nothing about it. I don't know anything about the case. But I know I have the right to do it. I have the right to give pardons. I've given pardons to people before.
FINNERTY: Yeah.
TRUMP: But nobody's even asked me to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Tonight, Donald Trump was again given the opportunity to clarify whether he'd pardoned Ghislaine Maxwell. And again, the President waffled. When it came to Sean Diddy Combs however, the pardon seems to be a question of loyalty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Probably, you know, I was very friendly with him. I got along with him great and seemed like a nice guy. I didn't know him well. But when I ran for office, he was very hostile.
FINNERTY: He said some not so nice things about you.
TRUMP: Yeah, and it's hard, you know, like you, we're human beings.
FINNERTY: Right.
TRUMP: It's -- and we don't like to have things cloud our judgment, right? But when you knew someone and you were fine, and then you run for office, and he made some terrible statements. So, I don't know, it's more difficult. It makes it more, I'm being honest.
FINNERTY: Yeah.
TRUMP: It makes it more difficult to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Oh, that's the part that's difficult for the President.
(CROSSTALK)
LEIGH MCGOWAN, "POLITICS GIRL" PODCAST HOST: Yeah, it's nothing --
(CROSSTALK)
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: -- making the hardest decision right now. That's the difficult part. I was literally -- I was talking to Elie. We've been chatting like besties over here in the corner.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: I know, you've been like buzzy. CHAMPION: But I remember -- and I shared this with you Abby, when I
used to be a reporter in West Palm Beach, Florida, when it was the apprentice year fired years, I would go to -- I would interview him often times -- Donald Trump, about Mar-a-Lago and what was happening there. And they would hold this event every year. Russell Simmons would throw this big huge party every year at Mar-a-Lago.
Among the stars that would be there would be Diddy, then Puffy. And they would always hang out. It was a big huge brawl. They loved each other. And he isn't lying when he's saying they were really good friends. I could see the way they would interact. It was one of the biggest stories. He'd be there for weeks at a time. And yes, when he ran for office, to his point, he talked so bad about him.
I have a hard time and I -- and I came on this show and said if he pardoned -- if Donald Trump pardons Diddy, that's just too much. That's just -- that's too much. He went too far.
[22:35:00]
I have really changed my opinion. I'm back on the other side because of the case. I didn't see Rico. I asked about that. At the end of the day, for lack of a better term, Diddy beat most of the -- the most significant charges. And so, here he is saying that he wants to pardon him. And in my mind, I'm like, it doesn't sound as egregious. And I'm surprised I'm even saying that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, what --
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: The thing is, you're talking about the actual crime.
CHAMPION: Yeah.
MCGOWAN: You're like, I didn't see Rico. I didn't -- you're talking about the law.
CHAMPION: Yes.
MCGOWAN: Donald Trump's not talking about the law.
CHAMPION: He's talking about --
MCGOWAN: If he was nice to me or not nice to me.
CHAMPION: Whether you get along or not.
MCGOWAN: That's not how pardons are supposed to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: No, no.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: The President isn't supposed to decide.
CHAMPION: He can do whatever he wants.
MCGOWAN: I understand he can do whatever he wants.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: The point is with the law, is that the President isn't supposed to come in and say, Abby was nice to me, she gets a pardon, don't care what her crimes were.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: But you're making too much --
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: Elie wasn't nice to me.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: You're making too much sense anyhow.
MCGOWAN: He doesn't get --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: You're making too much sense.
MCGOWAN: That's not how it's supposed to --
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: I'm so tired that we're acting like this is normal.
JIM SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: I'm not going to defend a pardon of Diddy. Yeah, I think the crimes that he was convicted of were serious enough that he should not be pardoned.
MCGOWAN: What are you even talking about?
SCHULTZ: But here's the thing. Are you going to sit here and say that Democrats, Republicans, and all former presidents hadn't pardoned their buddies in the past?
MCGOWAN: No.
MCGOWAN: That's not what I'm saying.
SCHULTZ: Really? Are you kidding me?
UNKNOWN: Hunter Biden? Do we have to relive what happened under Joe Biden's term?
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Seriously?
(CROSSTALK)
SHULTZ: The idea that doesn't factor into it. What it only factors into is that Donald Trump is a --
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: In my perfect world, the president would not have pardon power. In my perfect world, the president wouldn't have pardon power. It seems like an excessive power for one man to have to be used this, you know, for whoever you want, for your friends, for your buddy, for your son, for whoever.
I think that if I, like I'll tell you -- can't be president, born in Canada, could never be president. If I was president, one of the very first things I would do is ask Congress to remove the power of the president's pardon, and I would sign that, because it is clearly something that has been used cruelly for years.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: But I don't think anybody -- I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you, but I'm saying that is just the way of the world that we live in. Everybody's everything for their friends, and you're not saying that.
PHILLIP: I don't want us to gloss over the Ghislaine Maxwell of it all, because I think that's super important. One of the things about Trump constantly refusing to just take that off the table is the pain that it is causing her family.
CHAMPION: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Listen to her sister, or one of her relatives talking about just what it's like to hear the president not ever even mentioning what Virginia Guthrie went through at Mar-a-Lago, frankly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SKY ROBERTS, BROTHER OF VIRGINIA GUTHRIE: She wasn't stolen. She was preyed upon at his property, at President Trump's property. And I think it's very important that we don't treat it like, "stolen" seems very impersonal. It feels very much like an object and these survivors are not objects. So no, she wasn't stolen. She was preyed upon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It does lead you to wonder, I mean, does Donald Trump understand the crimes that are at stake here?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Okay, so --
PHILLIP: In any of these cases, frankly. HONIG: Legally, of course, he has the right to pardon anyone he wants.
It's an unbounded power. But let me just throw out here, everyone here. Is anyone here okay with Donald Trump pardoning or commuting down Ghislaine Maxwell's sentence under any circumstances?
CHAMPION: No.
HONIG: Anyone?
CHAMPION: No.
HONIG: Okay, so we all -- we all agree. And then there's what he's doing with this public game, right? He's been asked virtually every day this week, would you consider pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell and he says the same thing that we just heard. Let me show you the easiest answer. Abby, can you play the part of Abby Phillip, intrepid reporter?
PHILLIP: Yeah.
HONIG: And I'm going to be just generic president. Ask me I would -- if I would consider --
PHILLIP: Mr. President, would you ever consider pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell?
HONIG: Absolutely not.
CHAMPION: Right.
HONIG: N-O. Don't ever ask me that again. That's ridiculous.
CHAMPION: That should be the answer. And that should be the answer.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Given that just a few months ago he was campaigning on how he was going to expose the horrible crimes of Jeffrey Epstein, it is amazing that that is not something that he has said thus far. Can I just spare one moment for our friend, former representative George Santos.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FINNERTY: What about George Santos? He just went away, seven years.
TRUMP: You know, he was -- he lied like hell.
FINNERTY: Yeah.
TRUMP: And I didn't know him, but he was a hundred percent for Trump. But I didn't, you know, I didn't, don't, I might have met him maybe, maybe not, I don't know.
FINNERTY: Right.
TRUMP: But he was a congressman and his vote was solid. Nobody asked me, but it's interesting. Is it seven years?
FINNERTY: Seven years. He just went away.
TRUMP: That's a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's not a no.
CHAMPION: It's not a no.
PHILLIP: It's not a no. Elie Honig --
CHAMPION: We think, Maxwell -- you and I talked about this. You believe -- I don't think she's going to serve her entire sentence. That's just my humble opinion from outside looking in. The way in which you said, Abby playing intrepid reporter and you gave the answer of no --
HONIG: Right.
CHAMPION: -- he can't say that.
HONIG: Because he can't take the risk that she will turn on him, right? I mean, who knows what she knows about him? Could be nothing. But he has to make sure that he still has that power, that he dangles that part.
[22:40:02]
With respect to George Santos, it's the same thing you were just talking about. Listen to the calculation in his head. It's not -- a parting calculation should be, was this person justly convicted? Have they shown remorse? Have they been rehabilitated? Is it in the greater public interest? Instead, it's just this --
CHAMPION: He doesn't, yeah, that's little sign. He was 100 percent Trump.
HONIG: That's the way it happens with a lot of folks. And then at the end of the administration, in all administrations, the buddy rule applies.
PHILLIP: All right.
HONIG: Right?
PHILLIP: All right, Eli Honig, thank you very much for joining us. Next for us, what does it mean to be a manly man? To some conservatives, that means you are MAGA. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:45:15]
PHILLIP: Your testosterone might be telling you who to vote for. Yes, really, at least according to MAGA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE KIRK, "THE CHARLIE KIRK SHOW" HOST: I do think that there is a direct correlation between someone's testosterone and their politics. I would love to have a study done on this. On young men, the lower their testosterone, the more likely they are to be Democratic.
Democrats are not going to be able to win over high testosterone men because they're too self-directed.
So, differently, the lower your testosterone is, the more, of course, the more likely you are going to be subservient and compliant. Our Republic needs alpha men.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, in Charlie Kirk's world, high T means manliness, rebellion, rebellion and maybe a MAGA hat. Low T and you're apparently lining up for your ninth booster and asking the government to tuck you in. No real science cited, but Kirk's bold claim about turning masculinity into a political test is actually a thing despite your cackles of laughter.
MCGOWAN: Yeah, I mean --
CHAMPION: I'm sorry. It was ridiculous.
MCGOWAN: No, we are back on -- this is full-time bro science from trust me bro university.
(LAUGHTER)
MCGOWAN: No, like, now he wants a study. Like now he cares about science. This is hilarious. It's going to be this, his testosterone is that, and if we know anything about this administration, the results will be whatever the hell they want them to be. But I can tell you, I'm married to a super alpha man who can chop wood and, you know, grow a beard and drink scotch.
CHAMPION: Yeah.
MCGOWAN: And he could smoke Charlie in almost every alpha bro thing you could ever have. And like, what does that even mean?
CHAMPION: Wait so he drinks scotch?
MCGOWAN: Yes, and shoots guns and does all the things.
CHAMPION: Oh, and he's elevated. There's such a thing.
MCGOWAN: And he's a feminist -- raising a boy.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: He has nuance. Crazy. PHILLIP: Okay, so let me give you an example perhaps of the alpha-
MAGA-male. This is Nick Adams. He's a self-described alpha-male influencer. He is Trump's pick for Malaysia ambassador. He says, "I was at Hooters over the weekend.
CHAMPION: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- Alpha males eat wings, drink beer at Hooters with the boys. I go to Hooters. I eat rare steaks. I lift extremely heavy weights. I read the Bible every night."
CHAMPION: I am pursued by copious amounts
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: There actually -- there actually is a study on the NIH website. That's the one he's referencing that says --
UNKNOWN: The Hooters study?
TROVER: Yeah. No, injectable testosterone, it's on the NIH website.
PHILLIP: Sorry, say that again? What does this mean?
TROVER: There is a -- on the NIH website, there is a study that that is the one that he's referencing. It is on the government's website.
PHILLIP: What does the study say?
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: That if you it with testosterone, they move to people who had low T, move to the red. Yes, it's absolutely -- I'm not making this up.
MCGOWAN: They're injected with testosterone.
TROVER: Yes, because they have low T, so they have to get injected with testosterone. Of course, naturally. I don't have the picture though, so here's the picture of this.
PHILLIP: Let me play, this is, it seems -- let me preface this by saying, it seems the Democrats are aware that this is the reputation in the streets. So, they are trying to do something about it. Here is Eric Swalwell, a California representative. Just watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): I should be working right now. Instead, I'm pumping iron at the gym. pumping iron in the gym.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Pumping iron in the gym.
CHAMPION: Yeah. SCHULTZ: I think Charlie should pump a little iron in the gym before he makes these statements, right? think -- I think he needs to pump a little iron himself before he goes making these statements.
PHILLIP: Jim, I think you could take him out back for sure.
SCHULTZ: That's the thing. I played college football. I played college football with a ton of Democrats who were big, strong guys. But you know what? But Democrats when they were at a young age, so I'm not sure I buy Charlie's science on that.
TROVER: But if you watch --
CHAMPION: I don't even know what the science would mean. Like I wonder in reverse, how would it work? Like if you gave us a bunch of estrogen, would we be more docile? I'm curious with this, how does that work?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, Lance has read the study. But I mean, I guess the idea here is that -- the idea here is that perhaps more testosterone means that you're more self-interested, maybe you're, you know, more pick myself up by the bootstraps as opposed to being concerned about the greater good. I mean, these are stereotypes about --
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: I think what he was getting around to -- get to a little more, bring it back to the political circle, is the lack of authenticity on the Democratic side and what we just saw with Eric Swalwell. And "I'm pumping", you know, he's pretending to be -- there is a lack of authenticity because the Democrats are so far astray and have lost so many men out there. That's really what he was getting to in that point.
SCHULTZ: Guys, these all seem silly to me.
MCGOWAN: I'm sure.
SCHULTZ: I mean, I hate to say you're making a good argument.
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: Yeah. No, I --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHULTZ: But it all seems silly to me.
MCGOWAN: Yeah. No, it's all trying. I think this Alpha-Beta stuff is very trying. I think this concept that men have to fit into a certain box to be a man is really hard for men.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: But do you think --
MCGOWAN: I think ultimately, like, this all hurts -
PHILLIP: But do you think, Leigh, that Democrats have, I mean, there is no question that Democrats are struggling now with younger men in particular.
[22:50:06]
CHAMPION: Sure.
PHILLIP: And so, there's something to that. So, what are they -- what are they doing wrong? I mean, and I remember the convention last year. And we watched all the days of the convention. And you can count on two hands the number of men who were on that stage.
CHAMPION: He's right. He's right.
PHILLIP: There were not that many.
CHAMPION: But Abby, it's not even, I don't even know if it's that they are manly men and they are alpha men. I think to the point of what's going on with the Democratic Party, they just didn't see a home for themselves. And it's sometimes, and I don't necessarily know if this is the term that I want to use, but sometimes you take the lesser through eagles. Where do you find you most fit? If I do I go left or do I go right? Okay, well I'm going to go right because it feels a little more at home.
MCGOWAN: I also think that the right reaches out to men --
CHAMPION: Sure.
MCGOWAN: -- In way where they say If you're not happy with your life, if you're not happy with the way things are going, here's a person you can blame because it's not your fault. It's women's fault. It's minority's fault.
CHAMPION: Yes.
MCGOWAN: It's the gay people's fault. And so, they say there's one party that's telling them, okay, I'm not happy with how things are going. I'm not happy with the way my life is. This party tells me to do something.
CHAMPION: Correct.
MCGOWAN: This party tells me to be --
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: And this party tells me it's not my fault.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: The man -- the man.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: Jim. Jim.
CHAMPION: You, man.
MCGOWAN: Alpha.
SCHULTZ: Governor Walz candidacy was to say, hey, I'm Coach Walz. I coach, I hunt, I'm going to wear camouflage. And it was all manufactured, right? It seemed manufactured. It just seems like -- if they -- if they're trying to woo back, you know, men in some way to the Democratic Party, being fake about it, having Eric Swalwell out with some weights in the way to go away.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right.
CHAMPION: But I just think they had something to say.
PHILLIP: We got to leave it here for that conversation. Next for us, the panel will give us their nightcaps. They'll tell us what makes them want to scream into the void inspired by a new club and Chef Ginevra is coming over with some very real nightcaps for us. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:56:39]
PHILLIP: We're back and we're here with Ginevra Iverson, the executive chef at the Food Network kitchen. So, Chef Ginevra, tell us what you've got for us tonight.
GINEVRA IVERSON, CHEF, FOOD NETWORK KITCHEN: So, true summer classic, best -- our Food Network's best crab cake. It's just jumbo lump crab meat, a little bit of breadcrumb, not too much. Some lemon juice, mayonnaise, and a little bit of Old Bay. So --
PHILLIP: You've made my Maryland heart happy.
IVERSON: A little bit. We didn't get overboard with the Old Bay.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: A little bit of Old Bay.
IVERSON: Not much.
PHILLIP: A little Old Bay on the side if you want.
IVERSON: Yeah, exactly.
PHILLIP: Scan the Q.R. code on the screen for crab cakes if you want to make that this weekend. It's a good weekend for it. And now on to our nightcaps, Scream Club edition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Going in 3-2-1.
(SCREAMING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That's Scream Club in Chicago. Get this. They meet up once a week to vent their frustrations into Lake Michigan which sounds like a good idea in these times. So, you each now have 30 seconds to tell us what makes you want to scream like that. Chef, you're up first.
IVERSON: Well, the one thing that will drive me absolutely nuts is like containers that are left in the fridge that are half empty. Even my kids do. And unfortunately, sometimes I find it in here, too.
(LAUGHTER)
IVERSON: A little pickle chip, just one left in the entire jar.
CHAMPION: You're probably frustrated a lot.
IVERSON: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That's like the equivalent of, have you ever gone to dinner with a group of people and then somebody always leaves the last bite on the plate?
CHAMPION: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Hate that.
CHAMPION: I'm sorry. I would be the person who would make you scream. What makes me scream is that, you know, you all know I love sports WNBA is having a resurgence. What makes me scream about this story is that they will not allow women just to compete as athletes. We always have to genderize them and I just made up that word meaning, they can't just enjoy the game.
When we have the Caitlin Clark versus the Angel Reese of it all, it's like, let them just play and be competitive. Let's leave the jealousy narrative out of it. Let's just watch them be great athletes. It makes me scream when we take away from the fact that they're true competitors.
MCGOWAN: I mean --
PHILLIP: Cari.
CHAMPION: Go ahead.
PHILLIP: The drama is selling tickets. CHAMPION: Oh, my goodness. It is.
PHILLIP: People love the drama.
CHAMPION: It is.
PHILLIP: They love the drama with the men, too.
CHAMPION: Yes, but they don't call the men jealous. They don't say the men are catty.
PHILLIP: That's true.
CHAMPION: They don't use that language.
MCGOWAN: But are they not jealous?
CHAMPION: Everybody -- who is it?
MCGOWAN: There's a little bit of jealousy.
CHAMPION: We shouldn't be jealous because we're competitors.
MCGOWAN: Yeah. Yes.
CHAMPION: I think there's a difference between the two. We should know the new ones.
PHILLIP: All right. Jim.
SCHULTZ: So, mine is supposed to -- mine is my golf game. That's when the ball gets the best - that's when -- and when my fiancee whips me on about a weekly basis, my fiancee, Marie, just about every Sunday she beats me, I just want to scream anymore as she pats me on the shoulder and says, you're such a good golfer.
PHILLIP: And congratulations to you on your engagement. Your fiancee's in the room tonight. Okay, Leigh.
MCGOWAN: I think the thing that makes me scream is people that talk into their cell phones on speaker, like this. Because I'm like, bro, I'm not that interested in your rash, and I don't care what eyeliner you're buying. And if you're going to talk about your relationship, I'm going to weigh in. I can't take it.
PHILLIP: Yeah, the FaceTime's in public, too. It's too much.
MCGOWAN: That's too much.
PHILLIP: Painful. Lance.
TROVER: Lived in Chicago 10 years. The cold weather will make you scream at that lake, I assure you.
[23:00:00] Abby, I love coming on the show. I hope you forgive me for this. If you live in the DMV and you get behind a car, there's one thing that will make you scream. It's Maryland drivers.
PHILLIP: Oh my gosh.
TROVER: So sorry.
PHILLIP: I am a great driver.
TROVER: I'm sure you are.
PHILLIP: I am a great driver.
TROVER: But you know the --
CHAMPION: It's usually the great --
PHILLIP: I think that's projection for UTC and Virginia people.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: All right, everyone, thank you very much and thank you for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
