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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Says, Smithsonian Too Focused On How Bad Slavery Was; Oklahoma Mandates Ideology Test For New York And California Teachers; Trump Escalates Fight To Take Over Law Enforcement In Washington, D.C. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired August 19, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, the president wants to take a red pen to the Smithsonian because, in his words, museums discuss how bad slavery was.
Plus, a red state demands an ideology test for teachers, giving them 50 questions to prove they aren't woke.
Also, more Republican states send troops to join the president's D.C. takeover despite trouble in their own backyards. Is this about crime or politics?
And is Gavin Newsom's trolling of MAGA emboldening Democrats or embarrassing them?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I were his wife, I would say, you are making a fool of yourself. Stop it.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Bakari Sellers Batya Ungar-Sargon, Sabrina Singh and Leah Wright Rigueur.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Last week on this show, a guest shocked the table by arguing in part that slavery in America can't just be blamed on one race and that museums put too much focus on the role of white people who participated in that terrible institution. And now tonight, that same argument is being pushed by the president of the United States. Donald Trump says that one of the reasons for his crackdown on Smithsonian Museums is, quote, everything discussed is how bad slavery was.
What we try to do on this program is create a platform for discussion and debate, debate that reflects the very real differences that exist in this country. It's what echo chambers in our society fail to do, frankly. But on this topic, it's important to say objectively, slavery was indeed bad. It was evil, the nation's original sin.
And it is impossible to understand the true history of this country without fully grappling with slavery's impact simply because of their birthplace and the color of their skin, the bodies and spirits of black men, women, and children, were exploited for profit and power. They were forced onto ships bound by shackles and collars that ripped off their skin. One older man described it as iron entering our souls. Some chose to jump into the waters infested with sharks rather than feel that iron.
Now, once they arrived on this very soil, they were forced to work by way of the whip despite being starved, sleep-deprived, threatened, tortured, physically and psychologically. They were auctioned off, humiliated, fearful, and separated from their families and their children. Black women and girls were raped and sexually assaulted. Many were brutally murdered and mutilated.
Now, this endured for decades, centuries. And even in the places where slavery was not legal, institutions from our banks to universities were built on enslaved labor in both the north and in the south. And for many of the white Americans who did not personally own slaves, they benefited from a caste system that concentrated wealth and political power in their hands.
So, when we acknowledge the existence of black people who operated George Washington's Mount Vernon, or the black hands that built the White House, we are acknowledging the existence, the perseverance, and the contributions of the souls that white supremacy sought to erase.
Those people built families. They developed a culture. They were the keepers of the faith, cultivators of community, and they are the ones, they are the ones who deserve credit for forcing America to rid itself of the stain of slavery.
Now, all of this information, these stories are from the Smithsonian's African American History Museum. And I share this not as a lecture for you but as a lesson. America, the superpower is largely possible only because of the superpowers of people who went lifetimes without the same rights of generations who were boosted from their backs.
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True history should include everything, yes, the evils and the horrors too. And museums are supposed to be places that protect those stories, the images, the lessons, the very things that inform so much of our current state of our republic, from racism to poverty, no matter how painful, or in the president's words, how horrible the lesson.
Now, just listen to one formerly enslaved man describe what slavery is like in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what I'd rather do? If I thought that I'd ever be a slave again, I take a gun and just end it all right away because you're nothing but a dog. You're not a thing but a dog. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: We are here in the studio with our panel. Leah Wright Rigueur, I was actually surprised to see President Trump basically saying the quiet part out loud, that this review of the Smithsonian is not about even just something vague about reviewing history to make sure that it's fair. He wants to make it so that it talks less about slavery. What does that say to you?
LEAH WRIGHT RIGUEUR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think it's an effort. It's part of a larger effort to both stain-wash and whitewash American history and essentially erase all of the parts and disappear all of the parts that make the Americans -- that make Americans, that make President Trump uncomfortable, that feel distasteful, that are a reflection of the actual real and horrific parts of our history.
And I find it a little ironic. You know, earlier today, as I was listening to some of the, the commentary, my first thought was, wait a second, I wonder if the president has actually ever visited any of the Smithsonian Museums. And then I remembered that in 2017, he actually took a tour of the National Museum of African American History and Culture.
PHILLIP: Let me just play actually what he said during that tour. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I had the privilege of visiting the National Museum of African American History and Culture right here in Washington, D.C. It's a new, beautiful Smithsonian Museum that serves as a shining example of African Americans' incredible contributions to our culture, our society, and our history.
It also tells of the great struggle for freedom and equality that prevailed against the sins of slavery and the injustice of discrimination. The work and love of the people who help create such a masterpiece is a testament to the legacy of so many leaders it honors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, was it that he didn't believe what he read from the teleprompter as he recorded that video or what?
RIGUEUR: You know, I'm really struggling to understand in a lot of ways, particularly given that the tour that he took with Director Lonnie Bunch was actually a reflection of really the mastery that -- and really the care and the patients that historians, the scholars, the curators put into the Museum of African American History and Culture.
It is not just about the horrors of slavery, although it tells that very important story. It actually follows this really brilliant model where you move through the museum and it tells the story not just of American -- slaved Americans in America but also of the resilience of the triumph. And in doing so, it tells a story that is very much about democracy and about a quest for democracy and the way that Americans both built this country, but also the story and the narrative of like a truly American experience.
And so for the president, I think, to just simply erase that and push that away tells it -- particularly after praising it a few years ago tells us that this is part of a much larger agenda. This is part of a much larger agenda to erase things that, really, I think the country is just not refuses to deal with and is really uncomfortable with.
PHILLIP: I mean, he said as much by ending this post with, this country cannot be woke because woke is broke. He says, we have to have the hottest country in the world and we want people to talk about it, including our museums. Why is he equating talking about slavery with woke?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I think let me just start this conversation by saying that my personal view is slavery was a reprehensible institution. I agree with your words, that it was our original sin. We also fought a war to eradicate it and to get over it as a country. And that was a necessary thing that happened and a lot of people died. And we did eradicate it. And that's a good thing.
I think what he's asking is in our museums, what defines us?
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Are we going to be defined by the worst moment or the worst institution, or the worst mistake we ever made, or are we going to be defined by what we've done moving forward to get over it and to become the greatest nation on the Earth?
My belief is that he wants to look at these museums, not because he wants to do away with the idea that slavery occurred but that he wants to ask a very simple question, are we going to present ourselves as being exceptional or not? And I think he believes there is an effort by some to continue to try to define us from our worst moment, instead to try to focus and define us based on our best moments, which started when we eradicated slavery and began to move forward as the light of the world. And so that's what I think.
SABRINA SINGH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: That's what makes us an exceptional nation is because they tell the history and the story of our country, and therefore, you know, these horrible, horrific, moments in our history, that the original sin, as Abby talked about when it comes to slavery, has -- you know, we, of course, did eradicate it, but look where we've come today.
And I think those museums, like to your point, make America exceptional. And in museums all around the world that document atrocities, whether it be, you know, from Nazi Germany to eradicating slavery here in the United States, you have to learn the lessons of the past. And to deny it is to defend it.
JENNINGS: I don't think he's denying it. And Batya may want to comment on this as well, but I think what he wants to ask is a simple question. As we present our history, are we spending most of our time focused on something terrible? Are we going to spend more time as we enter our 250th anniversary focused on what this country has done to improve the lives of every single person who lives here? We are the light of the world for a reason because we're an improving commodity.
PHILLIP: The question I ask when I hear you say that is, why -- I mean, the idea that slavery happened, it's hard to understand what we've overcome if you don't even talk about what it was, you know? I think that that kind of waters down the whole --
JENNINGS: I don't think everybody's proposing that we ignore that it happened. I don't think that's accurate.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that the problem is that there are people, and Scott used the term a couple of times, and I don't think it was meant with any type of ill intent, but he said, you know, we got over it. And I think that's the problem. I think that there are a lot of people in this country who believe that, for some reason, we got over it.
I mean, the fact is that American child slavery is vastly different than what Jillian Michaels and others talk about when they talk about slavery around the world. I mean, the chattel slavery system that we had was extremely transactional. It was actually codified in law, and it was based upon the color and race, as you so eloquently pointed out in your opening.
And so not only when you think about that portion of where we are. 26 of our first 30 Supreme Court Justices owned slaves. The people who are own our money every single day owned slaves. United States presidents, members of the United States Congress own slaves, Lehman Brothers, we're not far from Wall Street, owned slaves, Brooks Brothers' suits that we wear own slaves. So, not only are we talking about the epicenter and the foundation of where our country was built, we have to acknowledge that.
But even more importantly, and this is where I believe that Scott and I can find agreement on this issue. I mean, Brionna (ph) and, and Meghan Walker, two of my best friends in the world. Their dad was the first African American SGA president at the University of South Carolina, right? He was an exec at IBM, but he was one of the first, right? We're still talking about first that emerged and stood on those shoulders.
I tell the story often about my mom and dad. My mom helped desegregate high schools in Hamilton High School in Memphis, Tennessee. My dad shot in the Orangeburg Massacre. This is a part of my story. This isn't some faint distant history. And so the reason I bring that up is because I think that American exceptionalism talks about the fact that black folk help and slave folk help build this country for what it is. They built Washington, D.C. But all of us are around this table, Abby, myself, all of us, not just Abby and myself, all of us are around this table because of the sacrifices and the blood and the sweat and the tears these people poured.
PHILLIP: I also come back to why the focus so much on slavery when it comes to rewriting history? There's a lot of history that it's in these museums, but he's focused on one thing, and that is that there's too much slavery being mentioned in the United States of America. That's very odd, Batya, honestly.
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, SECOND CLASS, HOW THE ELITES BETRAYED AMERICA'S WORKING MEN AND WOMEN: So, I want to start by saying I actually agree with everything that's been said, and I loved your opening. And so I offer these comments very humbly, because it's an honor to be included in this conversation, which is very solemn, and I think we all understand that and we are all looking for the common ground here.
And so what I'm about to say, I don't mean in any way to negate that tone, but starting around 2011, 2012, sociologists started to notice a shift in white liberal opinion polling to where white progressives became more extreme in their views on race than black and Hispanic Americans.
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And they called this, the sociologists did, called it the great awokening. And when they postulated, where did this come from? Why did white progressives suddenly start obsessing over race in a way that was actually far to the left of where Hispanic and Black Americans were on this issue, they found that the media had shifted radically how it talked about these issues.
So, for example, in 2010, the words white supremacy were mentioned 75 times in The Washington Post and The New York Times.
PHILLIP: But the media's different from museums.
UNGAR-SARGON: In 2020, the words white supremacy were mentioned 700 times in The Washington Post and The New York Times, and 2,400 times in NPR, the word racism 4,000 times in 2020, the words white and racial privilege from 2013 to 2019 grew by 1,500 percent in The New York Times and The Washington Post. And the word slavery itself exponentially skyrocketed as a percentage of words.
I'm offering this only to suggest --
PHILLIP: Yes, I understand. I'm just wondering what do you think is the problem so with talking about slavery, white supremacy, racism, et cetera, what's the problem?
UNGAR-SARGON: So, the point I'm trying to make here is that liberals will say, well, this is a reflection of reality. But, of course, it isn't. This is a reflection of a newfound obsession that was driven by the media. And that doesn't reflect well, I guess I'm not either the moral evil or the historical accuracy.
PHILLIP: I do want to dive into what you mean by that, because you say that it's -- you don't think it's a reflection of reality. Based on what? Based on the idea that those things don't exist based on that white, based on white supremacy doesn't exist, racism doesn't exist, that we shouldn't be talking about it anymore?
UNGAR-SARGON: Based on the idea, obviously, all these things, I think, are evil, but there's not more slavery now to the --
PHILLIP: Yes. But I think part of the problem --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Part of the problem is that back -- you know, not that long ago, in the 50s, 60s, even beyond that, when there was actual Jim Crow happening in this country, people were actually treating black people as second class citizens, we weren't talking about those things at all. Those words virtually never mentioned. So, is that that better? Was it better then or was it worse?
UNGAR-SARGON: That 2013 is the same as the --
SELLERS: But you're missing -- I respectfully not have this debate many times.
UNGAR-SARGON: Do you really think that there's as big a difference between the 1960s --
PHILLIP: That's not my point. My point is that the use of the language in present day, or the lack of the use of the language back when racism was apparent, every single day in the streets of America, doesn't reflect really anything except perhaps a better awareness of the reality that we live in as a country.
SELLERS: That's not the point.
UNGAR-SARGON: Do you think the country was more racist in terms --
SELLERS: That's not the point.
PHILLIP: I didn't say anything about whether the country was more racist now.
SELLERS: We're missing the forests for the truth. Because what you -- respectfully, what you have to realize is that the remnants of slavery that emerged through black codes, which, you know, were enforced by what is modern day police, what you're talking about in Jim Crow, what you're talking about in the Civil Rights Movement, those fights, they weren't even 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. When you talk about George Elmore and everything he gave up so that African Americans could vote in the primary system, when you talk about hearing Eliza Briggs, who actually were the foundation for Brown versus the Board of Education, when you're talking about Sarah Ma Fleming, who sat down on a bus before Rosa Parks, you're talking about the foundation of where we are today.
And you see those remnants of injustice even as we sit here today. You have a quarter of shame in South Carolina. Scott just was in South Carolina along the I-95 corridor where black and brown kids go to school. Their heating and air don't work. You have hospitals that are shut down. You have red lining that affect black people today. You have USDAs, right, the foreign subsidy program, which wasn't allocating funds to black people. So, yes, although you might want to say -- and one of the most amazing things about Barack Obama was that we believed we were in this post- racial society. We are not.
And so my point to you is that every ounce of change that we've ever had in this country has been because black blood flowed through the streets. You don't have the '64, '65 Voting Rights Act without the Edmund Pettus Bridge. You don't have the Voting Rights Act, you don't have Fair Housing Act without, King being assassinated. We don't even take the Confederate flag down without nine people being killed in a church, right? We don't talk about criminal justice reform without a black man being killed in the streets.
And so when we are articulating our views to you about the remnants thereof, I understand your point that we are not shackled or in bondage like we were in slavery, however, we have never deconstructed the remnants, which still affect us today.
PHILLIP: Well, I also wanted just add, Batya --
UNGAR-SARGON: So, that is a political point of view that Donald Trump is trying to address.
PHILLIP: Just as a factual matter, I mean, one of -- you're talking about a time period in which there was the first black president elected in the country.
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There was the Mother Emanuel massacre that happened in his -- during his presidency, which was, last I checked, about racism and white supremacy. So, there have been moments when we have actually correctly in this country grappled with those very things because they've been put on the agenda by our fellow Americans.
So, I don't understand the desire to try to avoid that when it's not as if it's gone. I mean, people are literally still killing people in this country because of the color of their skin, and suddenly we should just move past it?
JENNINGS: I think we've had more than just moments where we have had massive leaps forward in the way we treat each other in this country. I mean, I agree with Batya, where we sit today is vastly different than where we sat in the 1960s or the 1920s or the 1860s.
PHILLIP: I don't think anybody's disputing that.
JENNINGS: And it's not even close. It's not even close.
PHILLIP: But I don't think anybody's disputing that. And I think it's just a question of, do we need to just stop talking about it because we're not in --
JENNINGS: I don't think anybody, he's proposing that. But what I do think he is proposing, and I think this is worth discussing, is that as we go into our 250th anniversary, how are we presenting ourselves to the world? Are we presenting ourselves as a country that is obsessed with our worst moment, or are we presenting ourselves as a country that managed to overcome our worst moment and have been improving ever since?
RIGUEUR: It's not about being obsessed with our worst moment. I mean, again, I think it's an important part. You know, last year, 17 million people visited the museum for African American History and Culture, and I think that's an important number. Because part of what they saw was that this was a story about African American resilience. This is a story about community. It is a story about democracy and triumph. But it is also a story about two parts of the same coin that you can't have, and I think this is to Bakari's point, that you can't have that story of resilience. You can't have that story of expansive democracy without understanding how it happened and how we got there. You can't erase slavery and say, well, it's over and done with, and now we're not going to talk about it.
PHILLIP: A quick moment though on Donald Trump's role in all of this, because I think that kind of gets glossed over. I mean, the idea that the president is saying that he is going to have his attorneys go through the museums the same way that he did the colleges and the universities is, as far as I can tell, not something that we've seen in this country in a very long time, and it's also something that deserves to be pointed out as not normal.
SINGH: I think it's not normal, but also is this a good use of time for the president of the United States to be doing this? I think you saw that clip in 2017 when he was praising the African American History Museum. He was talking about his Torah and the visit. I'm not sure what changed from now until then. I'm not aware of other exhibits or other like language being inserted into anything that's being, you know, shown up in museums.
PHILLIP: I think what changes is that the, is the backlash on the right and anything that has to do with race. He is leaning into that because that is where his political base is. But we also have a responsibility to the facts and to actual history, not just the version that suits us in this political moment.
SELLERS: And I don't think that -- I think that the president is throwing stuff against the wall even when he tweets stuff like this. And I think that you have to be cautious about discounting people for their remarks, particularly when you have the president of the United States.
But, you know, coming from the south where I'm from, you, you don't have to necessarily read about your history and history books, which is fascinating, because you go to the barbershop and people tell you about when King came to town. I mean, people actually -- you know, they slept on jailhouse floors. They smelled the bullets come by, and so you have this greo-type (ph) of culture.
The danger, however, is not with Donald Trump, who's an 80-year-old man, and this is what we haven't tackled. The danger is with people like Dylan Roof, who had as much hate in his heart as less dramatics and other individuals during that time period. We have an entire generation who will discount that history.
And I prefer, and I think this kind of, to your point, progressives and liberals and even people to the right, particularly now, have gone to this point where we don't want to have the free flow and exchange of ideas, where we cancel people who have ideas that are different from yours.
And I think we have to get back to a point of having more education, more books, more museums, more history in those museums, more exchange of ideas so that we become a more educated country, because right now, I feel like this country's dumb as hell.
PHILLIP: We'll leave it at that.
Next for us, a red state is now giving teachers ideology tests to weed out the woke. Here are some of the questions that they're going to be asked.
Plus, more Republican governors are sending their own troops to Washington, D.C., tonight to join Trump's takeover of the city.
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We will debate that.
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HILLIP: Tonight, a legitimate mandate or a MAGA loyalty test? Oklahoma is now rolling out an ideology exam for teachers relocating from New York and California. Now, the test is going to be administered by a conservative media company ahead of the new school year. Applicants who don't pass the test won't earn a teaching certificate. And here is what Oklahoma's top education official said about this new requirement.
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RYAN WALTERS, OKLAHOMA STATE SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: It keeps away woke indoctrinators. It absolutely does. That's the whole purpose of it. We do not want Marxist, woke indoctrinators in the classroom.
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We want great teachers.
We do not allow any kind of CRT being pushed on the kids. DEI, transgenderism, we don't do that here in Oklahoma. Our focus will be on reading, math, history, science. It will be done in the highest level possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: When asked by CNN who is going to oversee this and make sure that the assessments are being taken and passed, Walters replied, quote, "It's up to me." And as you might know, because he has been at the center of a lot of insane headlines coming out of Oklahoma, he is a huge Trumper.
And part of what he is pushing against is anybody who doesn't like MAGA and Trumpism. But I don't know, I mean, it just seems like Oklahoma is not the one to be talking. They're not doing great in terms of education standards.
UNGAR-SARGON: Well, we don't have the whole test, but let me read some of the questions we did get. One question deals with gender, asking teachers to select from a series of multiple choice answers, which chromosome pairs determine biological sex. Another question asks why freedom of religion is important to America's identity.
Other questions include asking for the first three words of the Constitution, naming the two chambers of the U.S. Congress and identifying the number of U.S. Senators. I mean, these are all great questions for a teacher to be able to -- shouldn't a teacher have to be able to answer. It could be that there's like, do you -- how much do hate Donald Trump is like in there, okay? That would be great, but I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Shouldn't they also be able to -- I mean, shouldn't they also be able to -- I mean, wouldn't it be more important to know whether they know and understand the subjects that they're expected to be teaching? Isn't that more to the point?
SINGH: I think it's so concerning that our math and reading scores for fourth and eighth graders are the lowest that they've been in like 20 or 30 years. We need to be focused on how we're building back our kids and making them succeed and excel in schools. And that really should be the focus.
This idea that we're putting out these tests for just teachers in California and New York, I mean, teachers just need to be able to teach their subjects to your point. And then, you know, at the end of the day, because we're so behind in some of our elementary schools in particular, we always still have to keep our mind on, you know, the challenges ahead of us.
You know, China is not putting tests on their teachers on certain -- like some of the questions that you read. They're educating the next generation and they're going to be our competitors both economically and in other areas. And we have to keep focus on that.
PHILLIP: I would not -- I don't know if China has ideological tests for their teachers. Maybe they do --
SINGH: A different type of test.
PHILLIP: -- but they're a communist country.
SINGH: Yeah, I think it's a different type of test.
PHILLIP: They're a communist country. And you mentioned freedom of religion. This is the same superintendent from Oklahoma who wants, you know, the Bible and the Bible teachings to be displayed in Oklahoma schools. He did an interview with CNN in November of last year about this. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTERS: I know the left doesn't want our kids to know anything about the role the Bible played in American history. They don't want any of our kids to know about the Constitution. Before we had a federal Department of Education and we had the Bible and prayer in school, guess what? We were leading the free world.
President Trump is one on this issue. He has a crystal clear mandate. It's what Americans want. It's what Oklahomans want. And so, we're going to deliver on those -- on President Trump's promises here in Oklahoma.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SELLERS: Look, let me just say something. Ryan Walters is failing. He is not good at his job and he needs to take a listen to what Donald Trump says to people who are not good at their job -- "you're fired". They're 50th in education. In South Carolina, we used to make t-shirts that said, "Thank God for Mississippi." There's only one state that is worse in education than the state of Oklahoma.
And so, while he's trying to dictate the people that come in his borders to educate the young people in the great state of Oklahoma, they probably need to find another superintendent of education who's not engulfed in scandal, who's not someone who's perpetrating these gimmicks and games, not someone who's kowtowing to Donald Trump.
I think that his goal should not be to have these questions on test. We can articulate or pontificate or all the other big words we can -- SAT words -- we can find about whether or not the test questions are good or not. Ryan Walters -- where's my camera? Ryan Walters, why don't you focus on being number 45 instead of number 50 in the country?
PHILLIP: I mean, can't we just all agree, I mean, even if you don't want what he considers woke to be in schools, can't we agree that what he's describing is also not what our schools should be focused on? They should be focused on reading, math, arithmetic, creating good, decent human beings that go out into the world?
JENNINGS: Well, that was the last part of his statement that you played was that in our classrooms, we're going to focus on reading and math and science, and so on and so forth. I hope -- I hope --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And prayer and Bible and Christian religion, which, by the way, maybe some students are not Christian? Whatever happened to freedom of religion?
JENNINGS: So, you would -- you would be against that, but you would be okay if a teacher had other ideologies. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I actually didn't say any of that. I just -- I just said, I don't think it matters what teachers believe.
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I think what matters is what they are teaching in the classroom. Because we live in a society where we don't police people's thoughts, or at least we're not supposed to. So, if they think something, if they personally believe something, you're going to prevent them from having a profession?
JENNINGS: I think the question is not what they personally believe, but what they are personally focused on. And there is no doubt that there have--
PHILLIP: What's the difference between those things?
JENNINGS: The difference is, are you going to go into a classroom and spend your time focusing on some of these deeply held beliefs that you have more than you're going to spend your time on teaching the core subjects? That's what I would want to know. If I were the superintendent of education, I would want to know, are they here to teach or are they here to indoctrinate? It's a fair question that a lot of parents get.
(CROSSTALK)
RIGUEUR: It's also true that only two states are being targeted, California and New York, which also happen to be among the top performing schools amongst these age groups.
So, there's a certain level of irony in Oklahoma saying, don't you dare come in here and we're going to give you a test on this, particularly when they are doing so poorly, as Bakari said, 50th repeatedly and consistently across multiple groups, right? As opposed to California and New York.
Not only that. Oklahoma has a teaching shortage, like a dramatic teaching shortage that continues to go up. They have at least 3000 teachers that are certified to teach in Oklahoma that refuse to teach because of the environment.
SELLERS: That is --
RIGUEUR: They are importing teachers from Mexico because they can't meet the requirements and fill all of the slots. So, the idea that they would do this and turn away better performing teachers from California and New York, it just makes absolutely no sense.
(CROSSTALK)
RIGUEUR: And yes --
(CROSSTALK) SELLERS: This is -- this is playing politics with young people when instead we should be preparing them for 21st century global economy. That should be the goal.
PHILLIP: It is -- it is theater, but he also actually has real students --
RIGUEUR: Right.
PHILLIP: -- and their education is in his hands. So, it's very real for those students. Professor Leah Wright-Rigueur, thank you very much for joining us for those conversations.
And coming up next for us, more Republican governors are deploying National Guard troops to Washington, D.C. But what about the crime in their own backyards? We'll discuss what's behind those marching orders next.
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[22:41:54]
PHILLIP: Tonight, President Trump is escalating his fight to take over law enforcement in the nation's capital with help from six Republican- led states. The governors of West Virginia, South Carolina, Ohio, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Tennessee are all collectively sending hundreds of troops to Washington, D.C. to assist with patrols.
Even though four cities in two of those states were ranked among the most violent in the United States, according to an analysis of FBI data. Now, by comparison, Washington, D.C. ranked 17th.
As we were just discussing theater, here we go again. I mean, no denying D.C.'s got a crime problem, but should these governors be sending troops from their states where they have crime problems to D.C.?
JENNINGS: Well, I mean, if you're -- if you're suggesting we call out the National Guard in these cities, I think that's a different conversation than our nation's capital, the District of Columbia, which is a federal zone, and I don't think it's theater. I think it's working. They've arrested hundreds of people. They've gotten a number of violent criminals off the street.
Just last night, they arrested an illegal alien and a member of MS-13. They've gotten a lot of illegal guns off the street. Half -- half of all the non-immigration arrests have come in D.C.'s two most violent wards. There was some concern that they wouldn't be looking into the places where the crime is. That's not true. They actually have been.
And so, I have to say with the amount of progress they've made in just these few days, if it improves a little bit in our nation's capital, that's good for every state because every state has people that visit there all the time.
(CROSSTALK) SELLERS: And I think that -- I think that --
PHILLIP: But why -- why send troops from other states --
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SELLERS: No, I mean also -- also recognize --
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PHILLIP: -- of a city of 700,000 people?
SELLERS: You know, I saw images of a lot of National Guardsmen, federal agents protecting and circling a young lady who was drunk in DuPont Circle. I mean, I've been there before. I've just never been surrounded by federal agents when I've been drunk in DuPont Circle. They've out there and like I said last night, protecting the Lululemon's everywhere.
I mean, a lot of them are doing absolutely nothing and not only that, but they're not police officers. They're not skilled for this. They don't have the skill set to go out there and maintain social order or discipline or protect you from crime. That's not what the National Guard is for.
And even more importantly, if you actually want to get to the heart of this, go to Arkansas. Go to Sarah Huckabee Sander State. Go to Louisiana. Go to where the crime rates in this country are extremely high. Go to Mississippi. Go to Henry McMaster State in South Carolina. The highest crime rates of states in this country happen to be led by Republican governors who don't want to talk about it.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Who are mayors? Who are the mayors?
UNGAR-SARGON: Yeah, it's all introduced --
SINGH: Well, can I -- can I just say on Bakari's point, though, on -- in terms of resources, you're talking about putting our National Guards, men and women in uniform in the military on the street, this is not a good use of their resources. At the end of the day, these are the people on the front lines that are going to protect us from our nation's wars.
And I'm sorry, unless I missed something. I do have a problem with D.C. crime, but our National Guardsmen and women do not need to be the ones fighting crime. They're not trained for that. They're trained to fight our wars.
And what we need to really be focused on when it comes to the National Guard or any members of the military is really the threats that we face abroad. And that's where our resources and our training and our readiness needs to be maintained.
[22:45:02] And so, what you're doing by, I mean, governors can make decisions about their National Guard. If they decide that they wanted to send them to D.C., that is their decision. But at the end of the day, you're pulling them out of training exercises. You're pulling them out of their regular routines that are getting them ready for whatever their next mission is.
And that next mission we always have to keep an eye on is China, and they're not going to be doing that because they're patrolling the streets of D.C. and not doing anything.
SELLERS: Or a hurricane.
SINGH: Or a hurricane. Hurricane Erin is coming.
JENNINGS: You both said they're not doing anything. The simple fact that they are there, they're presence --
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SINGH: I didn't say all of them. I said a majority of them.
JENNINGS: And having more eyes and ears on the streets of Washington D.C., a place where there is crime happening all over the city, I don't know how you could argue that that is not a use -- a good use of their time. It's our nation's capital. It's our national capital.
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SINGH: But let the sustained deterrence -- but you have to -- for crime to go down --
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JENNINGS: It is a disgrace for it to be violent.
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SINGH: Wait. But there's just one thing on that. Some of the crime that's being committed in D.C. is by young individuals.
JENNINGS: Yeah, and they don't prosecute people under 25. How dumb is that?
SINGH: But here's the thing. It gets to the point of the root problem here. We have an education problem. We have a schools problem. We have a community problem.
JENNINGS: We have a carjacking problem. We have a motor problem. We have --
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SINGH: Yeah, that's not going to be addressed by having the National Guard there for many, many years.
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PHILLIP: You mentioned that the cities -- a lot of the cities, and I think you're right, have Democratic mayors but they're in --
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PHILLIP: A lot of them --
SELLERS: That's not right.
JENNINGS: Yes, it is.
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SELLERS: That is not right.
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UNGAR-SARGON: Yes, it is.
PHILLIP: Yes, it is.
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UNGAR-SARGON: The highest --
PHILLIP: Hold on, hold on. Wait, wait. Hold on.
UNGAR-SARGON: -- crime scenes are in red states led by --
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PHILLIP: Hold on a second. I'm not saying every city, but many of the cities in the top states are led by the Democrats.
SELLERS: But that's actually --
PHILLIP: But that's because a lot of urban areas are run by Democrats. That's not a controversial thing. My point is, as not every city, some of them. My point is, even if that were the most important factors that party registration of who runs the city, those governors have the ability to step in if they wanted to and they are not. Why are they not doing that?
UNGAR-SARGON: I think it's so amazing that the line on the left has gone from how dare, you know, Trump invoke the National Guard to D.C. to saying why aren't the National Guard being sent to other cities. Bakari, you keep saying they're protecting the Lululemons like it's a joke.
I mean, is that really the message the Democrats want to be giving out? Like, where are -- the side that thinks you should be able to, you know, burn down the Lululemon, steal from the Lululemon? Let me just give some data.
SELLERS: Lululemon hasn't gotten this much free advertising in a while.
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PHILLIP: But why are they not protecting the cities? Why are they -- hold on.
UNGAR-SARGON: Everybody is sitting here saying they're doing nothing, that they've done nothing.
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UNGAR-SARGON: Robberies down 46 percent since Trump --
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PHILLIP: Okay, hold on a second.
UNGAR-SARGON: Carjacking, down 83 percent.
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UNGAR-SARGON: Car theft, down 21 percent.
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SELLERS: You're talking about a real stat.
JENNINGS: It's from a D.C. policeman.
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UNGAR-SARGON: -- down 22 percent from D.C. police. Obviously, it's related to the fact that these people on the streets --
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PHILLIP: You're talking about -- you're talking about A, a week's worth of statistics. That's the first thing.
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PHILLIP: The second thing is that you skirted past the question that I asked, which is why -- why are these governors not policing crime in their own states? Why?
UNGAR-SARGON: Abby, you're against Trump bringing the National Guard into D.C.
PHILLIP: I am conceding to you -- I am conceding to you your point, which is that this needs to be addressed, that crime is a problem. Maybe if your point is that the National Guard should be involved, let's take that as a given. Why are they not involved in their own states?
(CROSSTALK)
UNGAR-SARGON: No, I have no idea why they didn't send them to their own states.
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SELLERS: But Batya and Abby are both wrong. Can I just say -- can I just say one thing?
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UNGAR-SARGON: But I do want to make one more point very quickly.
SELLERS: Yes, please.
UNGAR-SARGON: The media has been atrocious on this. Scott pointed out, 48 percent of the arrests were in the two most crime-ridden cities.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- percent of the non-immigration arrests. Immigration arrests accounted for almost half of the arrests.
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UNGAR-SARGON: Yes, yes. Forty-eight percent of the --
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PHILLIP: So, you're really talking about a quarter --
UNGAR-SARGON: One hundred arrests. One hundred arrests out of 200 arrests.
PHILLIP: You are talking about a quarter -- okay. But let's not play with statistics.
UNGAR-SARGON: Okay. Okay.
PHILLIP: You're talking about a quarter of arrests in a city where the -- where most of the crime is happening in a certain part of a city. So --
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SELLERS: Can I jump in? No, no, one second.
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UNGAR-SARGON: Wait, I need to make my point.
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PHILLIP: It's not a great statistic.
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SELLERS: Get it out. Get it out. Come on. UNGAR-SARGON: Okay, thank you. "The Washington Post" put a map, okay? This map was supposed to show from a data point of view where the arrests were happening, alleging to prove that they were not happening in the crime-ridden cities based on visuals and accounts from posts, reporters and social media posts. It was retweeted by "New York Times" reporters, and it was totally false. It was just --
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SELLERS: But I'm not worried about that. So, one of the things that you -- one of the things that both of you all said --
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: -- one of the things, but respectfully, before we get to a break. One of the things that both of you all said was you all discounted the efforts of -- of urban and, these mayors that are in these cities.
And so, what I wanted to do was backtrack to that because what we're talking about is people like Frank Scott, mentioned his name before, the mayor of Little Rock. We mentioned people like Randall Wolf and the mayor of Birmingham, Andre Dickens, the mayor of Atlanta.
And you know what's happened in those cities? Those crime rates have gone down exponentially. And even more importantly, one of the talking points of both you, Batya and my good friend, Scott Jennings has been Baltimore.
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JENNINGS: Never mention --
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SELLERS: You are my good friend. All you all mentioned is Baltimore, Baltimore.
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JENNINGS: Never mentioned that one time.
UNGAR-SARGON: I never mentioned Baltimore.
SELLERS: Not tonight but in life you mentioned Baltimore, Baltimore.
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UNGAR-SARGON: I've never said the word Baltimore in --
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SELLERS: You know what? Baltimore's crime rate -- Baltimore's crime rate is the lowest has been since the 1970s
(CROSSTALK) UNGAR-SARGON: I know that.
SELLERS: But the question is, do you know how it got there? And that's the most important question.
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UNGAR-SARGON: You need policing.
[22:50:00]
SELLERS: No. In fact, the word isn't policing at all. It's investing in things like summer work programs, lunch programs. It's investing in things like making sure that people have after school programs.
UNGAR-SARGON: I support all of that. I support all of that.
SELLERS: So yes, it doesn't say national guardsmen.
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UNGAR-SARGON: If you don't lock up criminals, they come and they do --
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PHILLIP: We do have to leave this here, but just as a point of fact, the cities that you mentioned, Bakari, are not in the top cities where there is the most crime in the country, which is why.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: But they've been increasing.
PHILLIP: Which is why -- yeah, but I understand the point that you're making but I also think that let's just be factual here. It's not a knock on Democrats that they run cities. They do run cities, but cities are also hard to run. It's easier to criticize cities than it is to actually run them. And if Republicans wanted to try running cities, they should run in those cities and try to get elected and maybe try to fix those problems as opposed to just saying, well, well, that's their problem.
JENNINGS: It's hard to run -- I agree with you. It's hard to run cities, but it's also easy to see the error of your ways. In Washington D.C., they limit prosecutions of people under the age of 25. Who do you think is committing those crimes?
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PHILLIP: And guess -- and you know? The mayor has been trying -- fighting against that for a while now.
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SELLERS: Ed Martin fired half his office so there's nobody to prosecute. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, all right, we got to go. But everyone, thank you very much for being here. Just in, another town hall erupting tonight and this time, it's a Democratic lawmaker. We'll tell you what happened. That's next.
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[22:55:58]
PHILLIP: A town hall in St. Louis, Missouri erupting tonight as Missouri's Democratic Congressman Wesley Bell got this reception.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. WESLEY BELL (D-MO): Are you ready? Are you going to listen? Are you going to talk? You asked the question and now we're trying to answer it. What it seems like is, perhaps you don't really want the answers because then you got to grapple with some really complicated issues.
(BOOING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Many of the complaints focused on the Israel Hamas war. We'll be back in a moment.
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