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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
DOJ Releases Tapes Of Maxwell Praising Trump In Prison; Epstein Accomplice Denies Trafficking Minors Despite Conviction; FBI Raids Home And Office Of Trump Critic John Bolton; Donald Trump's Capitol Takeover About To Get More Guns. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired August 22, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, we hear the voice of Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice from her sit-down with the DOJ. But Ghislaine Maxwell is vague, non-committal and gives Donald Trump exactly what he wants.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL, JEFFREY EPSTEIN ACCOMPLICE: I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way.
PHILLIP: Plus, a raid justified or a raid of retribution?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm not a fan of John Bolton.
PHILLIP: The Fed searched the home of one of Donald Trump's most outspoken critics.
TRUMP: I'm chief law enforcement officer, believe it or not.
PHILLIP: Also, a capital armed. As the Pentagon gives a green light for takeover troops to carry arms, the President warns the shows coming to Chi Town.
TRUMP: African American ladies, beautiful ladies are saying, please, President Trump come to Chicago.
PHILLIP: And Trump may finally get a rate cut from his nemesis but for all the wrong reasons.
JEROME POWELL, CHAIR, FEDERAL RESERVE: Risks to inflation are tilted to the upside.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Van Lathan, Ben Ferguson, Kristin Davison, Pete Dominick and Asha Rangappa.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Hello. I'm Abby Phillip in New York for a special edition of NewsNight. This summer, we are taking the show on some field trips and spending our Fridays right here at the Food Networks Kitchen in New York City. It's our sister company. And we, of course, have a fabulous chef serving friends of the show, and we'll catch up with her a little bit later tonight.
But, first, we have some breaking news. We are hearing the prison tapes of the interview between the Trump Justice Department and Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice. Now, remember, Ghislaine Maxwell wants a pardon and is known to be less than credible. We also know that she mysteriously was moved to a cushier prison after this chat. And in the interview, she claims that Donald Trump did absolutely nothing wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anybody. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman in all respects.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You will also remember the White House faced intense pressure last month to turn over the Epstein files, and the DOJ's number two spoke with Maxwell in a highly unusual move.
Maxwell is currently serving 20 years in prison for the trafficking scheme, and her sit-down made a point to flatter the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. And I just want to say that I find -- I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the president now. And I like him and I've always liked him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: She clearly understood the assignment here, Asha. What are we to do with this lengthy interview where, clearly, she understands that she needs to volunteer information about President Trump? She needs to vindicate him in a certain way, flatter him. Can we take anything out of this?
ASHA RANGAPPA, FORMER FBI AGENT: I don't even understand the point of this interview. I mean, just to rewind, this is like sitting down with O.J. to find the real killer, right? I mean, there's literally no real information that she can provide that would be credible. She was charged twice with perjury and she has said things in this interview that are inconsistent with the actual record of the case.
PHILLIP: Yes. It has always been -- similarly, I've been asking right here, what are they trying to get out of this? What is the point of all of this? And I think then the second part of it is then they've done this interview and now she's been moved to a cushy prison. So, what did they think that they got out of it? BEN FERGUSON, HOST, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: I don't know what they got out of it. What I know the reason for having the conversation is the fact that, besides her, who else has gone to jail that abused a ton of underage girls? And it went on for a very long time. And there's a lot of questions that people should ask about how is it that she's in jail and no one else is there? Does she have any information that maybe could actually bring justice to the victims?
[22:05:00]
I think we should all be asking that question about the victims here.
PETE DOMINICK, HOST, STAND UP WITH PETE DOMINICK PODCAST: Nonsense.
FERGUSON: Well, how is it nonsense to want to put more people in jail and abuse --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Asha can tell you.
FERGUSON: For the victims? You're saying for the victims. It's not (INAUDIBLE) try to look out there and see is there something maybe she lied about that now you have information about it?
DOMINICK: Nonsense.
FERGUSON: Nonsense. So, in other words, one person goes to jail for all the victims watching tonight, we're not going to try to ever fix your problem, sorry.
RANGAPPA: You're saying that they were trying to find new investigating leads?
FERGUSON: I'm saying if you're asking questions, is there a reason to ask questions? There's nothing wrong with asking those questions.
RANGAPPA: You have no follow-up questions in that entire time tape.
FERGUSON: Well, did you get -- I go back to what I said a moment ago. You guys are angry that they decide to sit down with someone who, by the way, is alive, because the other person --
DOMINICK: You should be angry.
FERGUSON: Let me finish. The other person's dead. Epstein's dead. You have one person who's heavily involved in this. And if she did tell you something that led to someone getting charged or a conviction or someone that trafficked a young girl, that's not a bad thing.
DOMINICK: Dude, Ben, you live at the top of bullshit mountain. I am so sorry.
FERGUSON: I'm sorry. I said the victims of crimes that were abused, these children, sexually.
DOMINICK: No, you can't sit here (INAUDIBLE) should be called the party of protecting pedophiles.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
DOMINICK: That's what you're doing.
FERGUSON: What the hell is wrong with you? I just said I want to put people in jail for doing that.
PHILLIP: Pete and Ben, just one second. Look, the answer to the question, did she have any information to provide is no, nothing came out of this interview in terms of actual investigative steps. And that is the part that is still within the Trump administration's power. They have an entire DOJ and they have an entire investigative file, and yet the main focus has been sitting down with this known liar and getting her to just --
(CROSSTALKS)
DOMINICK: Most criminals are.
PHILLIP: Yes. But to the point of this, she is a known liar. She is known to have lied under oath and she didn't provide any information. So, why don't they just actually investigate with the actual investigative files that they do have?
VAN LATHAN, CO-HOST, HIGHER LEARNING WITH VAN LATHAN AND RACHEL LINDSAY: So, there's a couple of things here. Number one, obviously, she's clearly lying. She doesn't want to spend 20 more years, maybe the rest of her life, in prison. Her credibility is shot. The reason why they're doing it though is because they see it as a nice piece of raw meat to feed to a base that doesn't want to believe that the Trump administration is complicit in covering up the ritual sex abuse of children, right? And so since that is the case, let's go through the motions rather than actually doing something. And if we were listening to the victims about Maxwell, we would hear victims say that this woman abused me, that this woman passed me around.
DOMINICK: Here's a quote from a victim. I have a quote from a victim, if you wouldn't mind. I think they should be heard. This is Haley Robson. Ghislaine Maxwell doesn't deserve any mercy. She doesn't deserve any grace. She deserves nothing. Why would anyone give someone like her, who is a monster and a liar, a time of day to explain anything? If you want the Epstein list, talk to the victims. And the fact that this is -- clearly, Trump is implicated somewhere. He is trying to make sure she doesn't talk. That's the deal. That's all you need to know.
PHILLIP: So, before we go on, I just want to remind folks to your point about the pardon and the victims. President Trump has repeatedly been asked about a pardon, and he keeps saying essentially the same thing, which is not, no. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I'm allowed to give her a pardon, but nobody's approached me with it. Nobody's asked me about it. It's in the news about that aspect of it. But right now, it would be inappropriate to talk about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Why does he keep leaving that door open? Why did they move her to a nicer prison? Why don't they just release the files that they have in their possession that they can release?
KRISTIN DAVISON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: My question would be, what did President Biden or any other Democrat who was in the same position do better to actually go and help the victims?
FERGUSON: They didn't do a damn thing.
DAVISON: Exactly.
FERGUSON: They didn't do a damn thing.
DAVISON: You can't sit here and say that --
PHILLIP: I'm curious about why is that the first place that you go when -- I'm not even -- by the way -- hold on. By the way, I just want to put on the table that it does not make a lot of sense, in my view, that if there was an enormous amount of dirt on President Trump, and that was just sitting at the DOJ over the course of two Democratic presidents, that no one would have decided to dig in there and get it out. Okay, let's just put that on the table. But let's just address what this Trump administration can do. That what they can do is release the files that they have. What they can do is not give Ghislaine Maxwell a nicer prison to be in. And they haven't done either of those things. Why?
[22:10:00]
DOMINICK: The answer to your question, by the way, is because Joe Biden, who wasn't best friends with Jeffrey Epstein, just to be clear --
FERGUSON: Bill Clinton was.
DOMINICK: Fine, do whatever you want to Bill Clinton. You said Joe Biden when he was president, why didn't the president --
(CROSSTALKS)
DOMINICK: Trump was best friends with Jeffrey Epstein.
FERGUSON: That's just a lie.
DOMINICK: Very close friends.
FERGUSON: I mean, I understand you to make this crap up as you go, but like I go back to one point that just truly amazes me every time I'm on, you guys didn't ask any questions. I'm saying I want victims to closure and the people that committed crimes --
(CROSSTALKS) PHILLIP: Hold on a second, Ben, just a second. Let's all just take it down a notch because you could not hear a thing that is being said at this -- you cannot finish.
FERGUSON: Okay.
PHILLIP: You cannot, I'm sorry.
FERGUSON: Go ahead. We have to take it down a notch. No one can hear or understand what is happening. Please, one at a time. Okay, go ahead, Van.
LATHAN: So, the Epstein list became a part of MAGA world lore. And why did it become a part of that? Because it was this gigantic mascot for the fact that there was a deep state that was all acting in this cabal that was controlling everything and hiding each other's secrets. And your guys -- wait a second, your guys said that they were going to get in office and expose the deep state and expose all of these files (ph), right? And then they got in office and they obviously don't want to do it.
So, the question of why is this an imperative, I'd ask you, why'd you make it one?
RANGAPPA: Can you bring this back to the interview though, because I'm just -- I'm not even under -- I'm still stuck on what the point here was. You say it was to find investigative leads. Do you believe that Ghislaine Maxwell is guilty?
FERGUSON: Yes. I've said that for years.
RANGAPPA: Well, she denied her guilt in the interview.
FERGUSON: Most criminal lie, news flash. Most criminal lie. That's like not shocking.
RANGAPPA: Then why on Earth would you believe anything she said?
FERGUSON: For the same reason that if you're law enforcement, and you were at the FBI, you interview a lot of guilty people to get leads from them.
RANGAPPA: When I was in the FBI, I wouldn't interview somebody unless I knew --
FERGUSON: So, you never -- hold on, you never interviewed a criminal?
RANGAPPA: I would never interview somebody without knowing every fact of the case before I went to interview that person. What Todd Blanche did is go in without knowing anything and no pushback.
PHILLIP: And to your point, no pushback, no follow-up questions. Let me play what she said about this vaunted. alleged list that she says doesn't exist. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL, DOJ: During the time that you were with Mr. Epstein, and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently, you never observed or you never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of individuals who, you know, linked to certain masseuses or anything like that?
MAXWELL: Absolutely no. There is no list.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Asha, I'm curious -- Yes, I'm curious about your --
RANGAPPA: What are we doing here?
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, that -- first of all, the line of questioning, the way he questioned her, and also he works at the DOJ. Does he know if there's a list? Is that information in the investigative files?
RANGAPPA: Oh, they had a long exchange about the list. There's a list, but it's a book, but it's not really a list. I mean, it was like weird. This whole thing would be the kind of interview you do if you literally are just starting an investigation and you're just trying to like get a handle on like what this person knows.
We have thousands of documents, about --
LATHAN : Tens of thousands --
RANGAPPA: Tens of thousands of document. This woman's -- whatever was going to --
FERGUSON: So, what would you have done differently?
RANGAPPA: She has to say, the ship has sailed, okay? She wants to re- litigate --
FERGUSON: Move on, victims, the ship has sailed.
LATHAN: No, just release the information.
FERGUSON: Move on, sorry, you got sex trafficked.
(CROSSTALKS)
RANGAPPA: The victims don't anyone talking to her. Do you care about that?
FERGUSON: Again, I go back to the core point here. You're acting like there's some injustice by talking to a criminal, which law enforcement does every day --
DOMINICK: Why are they talking to her?
FERGUSON: And asking --
DOMINICK: Why are they talking to her? Why? FERGUSON: Making sure just -- because sometimes in life --
RANGAPPA: She's convicted.
FERGUSON: Sometimes in life, criminals will lie, and then they'll tell you something else, it's called, you'd love to get out of there.
PHILLIP: All right. So -- all right, Ben -- I mean, Ben, just one thing. I mean, in a vacuum, what you just said seems imminently reasonable except for the fact that after this interview, she got a perk, okay? If you are a victim, and we have heard from many of these victims, and you see what has happened since she sat down for that interview, how do you not conclude that she was rewarded for something? And how does that serve the victims?
FERGUSON: Look, I go back to people --
DOMINICK: There's no answer.
FERGUSON: in prisons a lot. Can I answer before you say there's no answer?
DOMINICK: Go ahead.
PHILLIP: Okay, please.
FERGUSON: Prisons, they get moved around. people get moved around, whether it's Madoff, who did terrible things, they move around. Let me finish.
PHILLIP: You know, as well as somebody else that --
FERGUSON: You're acting like -- the part that I don't like is the fact that you're acting like Donald Trump somehow did some sort of deal for her?
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: That is not the case.
FERGUSON: That is not --
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: That is not the case.
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: You're implying that Donald Trump picked up the phone, made a phone call with zero evidence --
PHILLIP: Profile sex trafficking cases in the United States, you're saying, oh, it's just happenstance that the Bureau of Prisons went against its own policy --
FERGUSON: So, are you accusing Donald Trump of picking up the phone? PHILLIP: I'm just saying --
FERGUSON: Because that's breaking news tonight.
PHILLIP: I'm just saying the Department of Justice needs to explain why that happened and they need to explain it to the public --
FERGUSON: I have no problem with that. What I don't like is you insinuating that somehow this is a quid pro quo with the president of the United States of America with zero evidence.
LATHAN: I have a question for you.
PHILLIP: We got to go. I know you might not like that line of questioning but everybody in America is asking the same questions.
FERGUSON: They're not asking that question.
PHILLIP: Why was she moved? Why was she moved, Ben?
All right, we got to go.
Next for us, the FBI raids the home of John Bolton, one of Donald Trump's loudest critics and his former national security adviser at that. Is this warranted or is it part of a retribution tour?
We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Today, federal agents knocked on the door of one of Donald Trump's fiercest critics, the FBI searching the home and office of John Bolton, who once served as Trump's national security adviser. Now, we are told that they're investigating whether Bolton shared or possessed classified information. The president acted like he was in the dark about the whole thing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't know about it. I saw it on television this morning. I'm not a fan of John Bolton. He's a real sort of a low life.
He's not a smart guy nut he could be a very unpatriotic. I mean, we're going to find out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: While we don't know if this investigation is politically motivated, it certainly has the hallmarks of the retribution tour that Trump, to be fair, campaigned on and promised. In fact, Trump has publicly called for Bolton to be put behind bars in the past, and he's brought up what happened to him to justify it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I guess his house was raided there, but my house was raided also, called Mar-a-Lago.
So, I know the feeling. It's not a good feeling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: This saga about the book and the classified documents was -- first of all, the book from the beginning was cleared for the sort of classified disclosure standard practice for former White House officials, but the Trump White House did not like what the book said. So, this has been the source of the back and forth with Bolton.
But, I mean, at this point, is this just an effort to create a cloud of investigation and suspicion around him so that he then has to deal with it, whether or not it turns out to be an actual prosecution?
RANGAPPA: Well, the White House actually had stalled on the clearance. They had cleared it, that then they weren't giving the final go ahead, and he went and published it. And so there was like a question of whether he might be, you know, facing an investigation. And in this case, Abby, I would say there was a judicial check here, right, which is that FBI agents would have to go and show a judge that there was probable cause that evidence existed in the specific places that were searched.
I think what is weird to me is that this is like five years later. And to get probable cause, you need to have -- you know, you need to show that the evidence you have is recent. And so the question is, it's like what came up all of a sudden?
And, you know, I think combined with the rhetoric that has been surrounding it, Bolton, from the Trump administration, it, unfortunately, creates the impression. I mean, two things can be true. It may be justified, but it also appears to be politically motivated.
PHILLIP: Just a clear point of clarification on the recentness of the situation is it that they have to have recent evidence that he did something recently or that they learned something new?
RANGAPPA: They have to have evidence that is fresh enough to suggest that the evidence would be there if they searched it now, not like some witness saw something in his basement, you know, five years ago.
PHILLIP: Because Bolton has been out of government now.
FERGUSON: Yes, he's been out for a while.
PHILLIP: Seven years.
DOMINICK: Hold on, though. Your serious analysis in questions to the legal expert are all -- it's too cogent, the analysis, Asha's experience in legal analysis, she's trying to figure out why this was. We don't need it. We know exactly what's going on here. This man has one mode. It is revenge. He has an enemies list. John Bolton has been a critic. I can't believe I'm saying this because I despise John Bolton. I have my entire career, I've interviewed him. I don't like the guy. But this guy crossed Donald Trump, and that is why this is happening.
Everybody knows it. Either that or maybe the Epstein files --
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: Let me just quote John Bolton. Quote, everybody just ought to calm down whether you're pro-Trump or anti-Trump, and let the process work its way through.
[22:25:00]
That was him running to a camera in Mar-a-Lago on the day the raid happened in 2022. So, I would like to say, why don't we just calm down, let's just let the process work its way through.
DOMINICK: Sure.
FERGUSON: And maybe there's a chance that John Bolton did something that they went to a judicial system and looked at and said, this is not okay. And they said, hey, we have enough here and believe it might be there that you can actually go raid his home and office.
Again, let's just calm down, let the system work. We should give any information. I mean, I'm just saying it's pretty rich from John Bolton tonight.
RANGAPPA: I'm glad that you're acknowledging that the search of Mar-a- Lago would've been similarly --
FERGUSON: I used his exact words that he said about calming down, and now everybody's like, oh, it's got to be a witch hunt, really?
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Kristin.
DAVISON: No, I think, look, we don't know what the motivation was. We don't know what's going to come out of this. We have to -- like we said, have to let the process play through. We do have examples of political retribution. We do in the Obama administration and the Biden administration, the 40-plus organizations that the IRS apologized to, because they target Linchpins for Liberty, Nor Cal Tea Party. They searched organizations for Tea Party and Patriots and penalized them.
DOMINICK: Keyword for the IRS, facts.
DAVISON: We don't know what this one is yet.
DOMINICK: That also is --
DAVISON: But we have though that political retaliation --
FERGUSON: Hey, if he did nothing wrong, he's got nothing to worry about.
(CROSSTALKS) RANGAPPA: But here's a big difference between the Obama administration and the Biden. It's that until this administration --
PHILLIP: Hang on second.
RANGAPPA: There has been a norm of independence between the Justice Department and the White House. And they --
FERGUSON: The president knew about it today.
RANGAPPA: And it's clear that that norm is no longer there.
FERGUSON: That's not true. Give me evidence to prove that. Hold on, give me evidence to prove that.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
FERGUSON: They have dinner a lot at the White House, the Biden and the Obama administration.
PHILLIP: Everyone stop talking for just a moment, all right, because I'm going to play some sound from J.D. Vance, the vice president. He is speaking to Meet the Press here about this investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Classified documents are certainly part of it, but I think that there's a broad concern about Ambassador Bolton they're going to look into it. And like I said, if there's no crime here, we're not going to prosecute it. If there is a crime here, of course, Ambassador Bolton will get his day in court. That's how it should be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: What does J.D. Vance know about this? What should J.D. Vance know about this, A? And then the thing that really struck out to me was the term, broad concern.
DOMINICK: You can get that --
PHILLIP: Let me let Van weigh in, and then I'm curious about what Asha thinks about the broadness of this.
LATHAN: The whole thing, J.D. Vance in that interview is painting us versus him situation because he knows that that's what this is. We don't have to lie about it. We don't have to obfuscate. President Trump has a list. Kash Patel has talked about this. John Bolton is on his list. He's crossing off names like Steve Buscemi, and this is what's going to happen.
Now, what we have also done, I really am stretching my heart to try to care about John Bolton. Listen, guys, I just don't care. I'll be honest with you. But this is a political norm that we've accepted. And even by doing your side, my side, whatever side, all of this stuff, we've accepted a political norm of power going after its enemies --
(CROSSTALKS)
DAVISON: That's why he was elected. Because that norm had reached its peak under Obama and Biden. That's why Trump was elected.
LATHAN: In that same deal, we're going to deal with this in perpetuity.
PHILLIP: Let me just say there is no evidence that what -- that there was some top down order of political retribution in either the Obama or the Biden administration. You can either -- you can -- I'm going -- I'll concede to you that Donald Trump --
FERGUSON: Like they made up like the Russian hoax, and they used information to go after Donald Trump to try to undermine his entire presidency?
PHILLIP: Okay.
FERGUSON: And they all signed their names to it.
PHILLIP: Are you going to give me a second to talk or no?
FERGUSON: No, but like you can't say it didn't happen.
PHILLIP: Listen, the Russia hoax, first of all, A, was Donald Trump prosecuted?
FERGUSON: They did it to impeach him.
PHILLIP: Was he prosecuted.
FERGUSON: He was impeached over it.
PHILLIP: Was he -- okay. So, he -- okay.
FERGUSON: That's a big deal. It's called overthrowing all the people.
PHILLIP: First of all, oh, he was impeached over his handling of Ukraine. He was not impeached over the Russia investigation.
FERGUSON: Over a perfectly good phone call, which, by the way, became accurate on Hunter Biden.
PHILLIP: The second thing is, let me just read to you a list of people that Donald Trump and his top cabinet secretaries have said are going to be the subject of investigations. The special counsel, Jack Smith, former FBI Director James Comey, former CIA Director John Brennan, Senator Adam Schiff, A.G. Letitia James, President Barack Obama, Governor Phil Murphy and Representative Monica McIver. So, there is a list that comes right from the top.
[22:30:00]
I'm not making this up, okay? FERGUSON: Then put themselves on the list because they weaponized the government to attack their political opponents.
PHILLIP: So, in one case -- Let me just say, in one case, you all are making connections based on conjecture. In another case, Donald Trump is just saying the thing. So, those are two very different situations. Okay, the IRS is --
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: So, Obama didn't know what was going on in his government? He didn't know what his --
PHILLIP: If you can provide me proof that Barack Obama directed the IRS to go after Tea Party groups, I will -- I will concede that to you immediately.
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: If you can provide me proof that Donald Trump called the FBI today --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That proof doesn't exist, okay? That is the only point that I'm making. But, next for us. The administration gives the green light for the military to carry guns during a takeover along with civilians who can now carry shotguns and rifles in D.C. without being penalized. And it all comes as the President is warning that there are other cities that he's going to take over -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:33[
PHILLIP: Welcome back. It's our Summer Friday edition of the show. We are at the Food Network Kitchen in New York with friends of the program and, of course, our fantastic chef with a surprise treat for all of us, that is coming up.
But first, Donald Trump's Capitol takeover is about to get more guns. The Pentagon is giving the green light to National Guard troops to start carrying their weapons while patrolling the streets of Washington, D.C. Now, this is coming as nearly 2000 National Guard members have been called up from other Republican states to come into the nation's capital.
Earlier, they were instructed that they did not need to have their service weapons. It's also not clear that they really need them. So, why? Why take this step?
FERGUSON: I've got that's in law enforcement and if you're in law enforcement, I want you to have a firearm because you don't know what someone's going to do. And if you're willing to put your life on the line whether it's D.C. or any other city and you've been trained with a weapon, I want you to have that weapon. I want you to be safe. don't find it offensive.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Then why did they have them have weapons at the beginning --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: - Again, I want them to.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- when they explicitly said that they would not have their weapons --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I don't know. What I know now is this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- because they were going to be in a supporting role --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm in favor of law enforcement --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- law enforcement?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- always having weapons.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: What about the National Guard?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm in favor of the National Guard. I don't think they're children. I think they're adults. I think they've been trained.
(CROSSTALK)
DOMINICK: You like the military on the streets of America?
FERGUSON: I love it in a dangerous city. My hometown of Memphis, Tennessee --
(CROSSTALK)
DOMINICK: In Union Station?
FERGUSON: -- sending them tomorrow because there's far too many African-American kids that dying in Memphis, Tennessee. I've been shot at in Memphis, Tennessee.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPPA: A lot of what you're saying is that --
FERGUSON: It's not a joke to me. When you've had a gun put to your head and you've had two people shoot at you from five feet away --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: It's not a joke. Crime is real. It's not a joke. People die every day. Not buying it. Wow. Wow.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Pete, Pete, just a second. Pete and Ben, stop. Thank you. Go ahead, Asha.
RANGAPPA: Yeah, the problem is that the military, A, are not trained to do law enforcement. They are trained to fight wars.
FERGUSON: That's not true.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPPA It is a different training. It is a different training. What you do in terms of addressing crime de-escalation is very different than what a soldier is expected to do on a battlefield.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: With all due respect, they're trained on how to secure areas.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPPA: So, this is -- this, and a bigger problem is that we -- a bigger problem is that we have something called the Posse Comitatus Act, which was passed specifically to prevent the military from engaging in routine law enforcement functions. The D.C. National Guard is in a unique situation because it's the only National Guard that is under the direct control of the President at all times.
PHILLIP: So, when Trump says that he's going to move this into other cities, he specifically mentioned Chicago multiple times today. What are the kind of legal guardrails around that, if any?
RANGAPPA: Yes, so he is muddying the waters here because the National Guard in D.C. is the only National Guard that he has direct control over. Now, what he can try to do is federalize the National Guard like he did in L.A. However, when you federalize a National Guard, the National Guard then steps into essentially the same shoes as the military, and they are barred from doing routine law enforcement under the Posse Comitatus Act unless he declares an insurrection, which is, I think they're going to.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: Ben, I heard you bring up the condition of African-American young in Memphis. And I've heard that being used as an excuse or justification from some people on the right as to why we need to send the military out onto the streets of America everywhere. What I would hope is that, number one, we see that trick back so that's not going to work.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I don't think it's a trick but it's the most dangerous thing in America.
LATHAN: What I would say though is when black people and their organizations --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: That's what I'm going to tell you right now. There are organizations all over this country that are dealing with the epidemic of crime in our cities.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Violent interrupting.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: And we come to state governments and federal governments and we say, this is what we need for our boys and girls. And we say that. And you know what we get? We get underfunding. We get --making them hungry. We get taking money out of their school districts. What we get is people telling us that the way to cure crime is not to deal with the root causes that create disparity and inequality.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: The way to cure crime is to send jackboots into cities and scare and whip people up and actually strip away their --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Hold on, hold on. In a seven-day period, there were zero people that were murdered in Washington, D.C. Why would you not want that for the people of Memphis, Tennessee or Chicago? Because there's dead people in those cities.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What I would say about that is that, that has happened before in Washington, D.C.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: All the crime sets that went down?
[22:40:00]
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me -- let me finish. This -- just this year, murder-free weeks in D.C. There was a two-week period in February and March --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Golf class.
PHILLIP: There was a seven-day period in April. Another eight-day period in May. And in August, just before actually Trump stepped in --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: So, the car jackings down.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: All right. All right.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: August period was the period that Trump was referring to.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: They're already down.
PHILLIP: Listen. My point is --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: So, let's --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Keep doing what we're doing to have the highest crime in the country.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Hold on, Ben. My point is only that Trump continues to say that the statistics that show that violence is going down in D.C. are fake.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But the same -- those same statistics that -- I agree, they're not fake. Trump says that they're fake.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: No, no. I'm saying, the numbers -- (CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: Trump's numbers now are real but the numbers before --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Because those same statistics that -- are the ones that Trump -- are using to justify --
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPP: Now, they're real.
PHILLIP: I'm not saying that what we're --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Are you saying since he put the National Guard and it's gotten worse?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But now, the statistics are fine, but a week ago they were fake.
DAVISON: All I'm going to say is, if Democrats want to start winning elections again, this is not the fight to take.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Yeah, it's a --
DAVISON: Lowering crime is something that both everyone should agree with. And frankly, it's why the Democratic Party has --
(CROSSTALK)
DOMINICK: Let's just stop. Stop, Kristin.
(CROSSTALK)
DOMINICK: Kristin.
(CROSSTALK)
DOMINICK: Let's all agree at the table. Let's not do this to each other. Let's not say that -- let's not -- hold on, let me finish. Let's not say liberals, or conservatives, or Democrats, or Republicans are somehow --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: If it's the facts, it's the facts.
DOMINICK: Let me just finish -- are somehow for crime. Ben, let's agree. No one's for crime. (CROSSTALK)
DOMINICK: No political party's for crime.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Your actions of your party -- I'm sorry, I'm not going to say that I agree with you on that because the Democratic Party's actions are that you guys do not go hard on criminals. You do not.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: The most dangerous cities in America are run by Democrats. The only Republican city --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: murdering. Give me one. It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: Everyone, everyone. Listen to the manicuring of the statement. Show me a Republican city.
FERGUSON: Yeah.
LATHAN: OKAY. Now, what I could do is show you red states, states that are like, like --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: Hold on. Can I -- can I finish? Can I finish?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Ben, can you let him finish, please? Thank you.
LATHAN: I'm for Louisiana. I'm from a state that's under resource, with a lot of poverty, and one of the by-products of that is crime. Mississippi, Alabama, all different types of states in the south where you have cyclical, systemic issues that inspire crime. The reason why crime is higher in those states isn't because of the culture of those people or because they are bad. It is because there are issues that lead to crime. If we want to fix those issues, then we should have full-throated conversations about how we do that.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: We would not -- and if we want to --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, Asha, last word.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPPA: That solution should not include sending military into the streets.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPPA: There are two different --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Then to Democrats --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let's ask one thing of you, I guess, Ben. What happens when those National Guard troops use those weapons against American citizens?
FERGUSON: You're assuming that they're -- in a way that you phrase that is like they're just going to randomly shoot Americans.
PHILLIP: No, I'm just asking --
FERGUSON: They may actually have to shoot a criminal, a murderer. Someone that points a gun on them. That happens every day in America.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I'm just asking -- listen. I'm asking -- I'm asking what if they were initially sent unarmed and now for whatever reason, despite the fact that the reporting is that many of them are doing --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Abby --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- very laudable things. Helping women down the stairs, to different stations. They've been -they're patrolling the streets. They are standing outside of monuments. They're doing all those things. Now, they're going to be armed. What happens when those weapons are used against American citizens? Do we cross a line at that point or no?
FERGUSON: Again, you're acting like -- and this is the difference between Republicans and Democrats. You're acting like the good guys are going to go kill innocent Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: They do it all the time.
(CROSSTALK) FERGUSON: They would use a gun against a violent criminal or someone that brings a weapon.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: They do it all the time.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPPA: Because they should not be doing law enforcement.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Then you guys want people to die in these dangerous cities because you refuse to do what needs to be done to get control.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPPA: Military should not be engaging in law enforcement. That's just the law. That is the law.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Again, you guys have lost the Americans on this. The American people want safe cities. They want safe cities.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPPA: The founding fathers --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right guys --
RANGGAPA: -- did not want the military used against the American people.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Criminals?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Ben, hang on one second.
(CROSSTALK)
DOMINICK: It's okay --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What Asha is saying is the point, right? So, there are people who have different roles in our society that are -- some of them constitutionally so. So, you have law enforcement, you have states that are in charge of what happens in their states, and then you have the federal government that's in charge of the military, which is not designed constitutionally to be turned inward --
(CROSSTALK)
RANGAPPA: Correct.
PHILLIP: -- to fellow American citizens. Now, my question is, are you, as conservatives, but I'll direct it at you, okay with Trump changing that paradigm and allowing the military to be used domestically against fellow citizens, arming them, putting them in a situation where they might have to use their weapons against those fellow citizens? Are you okay with that?
DAVISON: I'm going to throw away your premise because to say that just to give the military and National Guards, man or woman, a weapon means that they're going to snap and use it on a citizen.
[22:45:03]
I mean, you have to trust.
FERGUSON: That's pretty nasty.
DAVISON: That's pretty -- that is pretty cynical and it's --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Nobody is saying that they are going to snap.
FERGUSON: But you're implying.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But whether they are --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You're implying. You're implying they're going to randomly shoot an American.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Guys, guys, just one second.
DAVISON: No, no.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Just one second.
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: That's very disrespectful.
PHILLIP: Excuse me. Listen. Hold on. Does the Constitution distinguish, when we talk about American citizens, between people who are criminals and people who are not? When it prescribes a role to the military to not be used domestically, does it say, oh, but maybe they can be used against criminals and that's okay? Does it say that?
DAVISON: When a crime is committed, I mean, you give up rights.
PHILLIP: Yeah, but Kristin, does it say that in the Constitution?
UNKNOWN: No.
PHILLIP: Does it?
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: You are saying that we believe that national --
LATHAN: I don't know. That's not --that's not what actually --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Abby, Abby --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: No, no. Everybody stop.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Do you want them --
PHILLIP: Everyone stop.
FERGUSON: Do you want them to have a gun? Yes or no.
PHILLIP: Stop.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What I want is what everybody else should want, which is for those individuals to be put in their legally prescribed roles so that they are not being asked to do things that are outside of their roles. That's why there has been at least one Republican governor who has said, this is not the role of the National Guard.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Of course not.
PHILLIP: I will not send my National Guard to Washington, D.C.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: And he has a right to do that. And he has a right not to send them.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, by, there -- it's a bad faith argument to falsely stop --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: No, no. Excuse me.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Please let me finish, Ben. Ben, stop. It is a bad faith argument to suggest that I'm saying, oh, they're going to snap and shoot somebody.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All I'm saying --
FERGUSON: The Americans --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All I'm saying is that they have -- they have roles, right? And we have laws in this country.
FERGUSON: Yes.
PHILLIP: You care about the laws or not?
FERGUSON: I care about the laws and there's a reason why this --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay. So do you --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Right. We are talking about --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: Abby, Abby --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I got to go.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Just a second.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: Okay. Listen. Listen.
PHILLIP: Ben, just a second. We are having one conversation at this table. Do not have side conversations, please.
UNKNOWN: Right.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Van. LATHAN: Abby's too classy to say it. She is. I'm going to say it for you guys and I'm going to tell you right now. I'll say it on television. Something bad is going to happen. And if you guys want to turn this into a conversation of all the people that are black and brown, that we have made hashtags out of in the past 10, 15, 20 years --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: Let me finish. The people that were murdered that I'm talking about, were murdered by overzealous law enforcement. And I'm telling you, as much as you guys might feel like --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: -- it makes a lot of people to feel safer, I know plenty of people in D.C. right now that actually don't feel safer. They feel more in danger about what they saying --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: The data didn't say it before.
PHILLIP: No, no, hold on. The data actually does say that. Eighty percent of D.C. residents do not approve of what Trump is doing in their city.
FERGUSON: They don't approve of the crime going down?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Eighty percent of --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Listen. Ben, Ben, have you seen the poll I'm talking about?
FERGUSON: I've seen --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: There's been one poll --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Ben, listen. I don't know why you're arguing with me about this. I don't know why you're arguing with me about this. I'm talking to you about a real poll, not an imagined one, okay? Eighty percent of residents in the city do not approve of Trump's move to take over law enforcement in the city. And most of them say they do not feel safer as a result of his actions.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: The data says you're safer.
PHILLIP: You can quibble with that, but you should take it up with D.C. residents because that is --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- those are --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We got to leave it there, my friends.
DAVISON: They're glad that it's safer.
PHILLIP: We have to leave it there, my friends. And I should say, for the record, that you two, Ben and Pete. We're now going to say this that you know each other, you're friends.
DAVISON: They're friends.
PHILLIP: You're friends despite all of this commotion.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, everybody.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We have got a special treat up ahead. We'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:53:46]
PHILLIP: We're back and we're here with Ginevra Iverson, the executive chef at the Food Network kitchen. So, Chef, tell us what we've got here in front of us. It looks amazing.
GINEVRA IVERSON, EXECUTIVE CHEF AT THE FOOD NETWORK: This is our classic, our Food Network's best Eggplant Parm. It's the end of the season. There's eggplant everywhere. So, we've got a bunch from the market, all the different colors. And breaded it traditionally. It's with fresh mozzarella and a homemade tomato sauce.
PHILLIP: So, I need the secret. What's the secret for the eggplant part of this? Because this is the part I always --
(CROSSTALK)
IVERSON: Yeah, so salting it, a little bit, like, laying it, and then rinsing it, patting it dry really well. We use fresh breadcrumbs with it so that it soaks up the good olive oil really nicely. You freeze the bread and then grind it in the food processor.
PHILLIP: Freeze --
UNKNOWN: Freeze it.
LATHAN: What season is eggplant season?
FERGUSON: Now.
IVERSON: Now.
(LAUGHTER)
IVERSON: Yeah.
DOMINICK: Do you have enough wine?
PHILLIP: I do, do.
DOMINICK: It looks like you've got a lot of wine.
UNKNOWN: They like you more here than us.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: This is the hour that we have to decompress a little bit, everybody.
DAVISON: Cheers.
DOMINICK: Want to do a fake --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Fake friends, real friends, we will find out. So, for people who are newbies to this dish, what's the biggest pitfall of an Eggplant Parmesan?
[22:55:05]
IVERSON: I think, probably -- it's so simple that you really need the best ingredients. So, we use the best tomatoes we can possibly get our hands on.
PHILLIP: Are there any good tomatoes left in America? Like where are they? Where can we --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: The flavorful ones.
IVERSON: Yeah.
FERGUSON: What's your favorite tomato?
IVERSON: I mean, I'd love the classic beef steak tomato but for this, like, aroma, a good Roma tomato plum tomato because it's meatier, it doesn't have as much water. You can roast it, pull the skin off, and then use that for your sauce.
PHILLIP: All right.
IVERSON: If you're growing a plethora of tomatoes, which a lot of people do.
PHILLIP: We love it, it's delicious. Chef Ginevra, thank you very much. And everyone else, thank you very much. Thanks. You sure can. Thank you for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
