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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

2 Children Killed, 14 Children and 3 Adults Hurt in School Shooting; Police Say, Shooter Died of Self-Inflicted Gunshot Wound; Police Chief Says, Shooter Released a Manifesto on YouTube. "NewsNight" Discusses Minneapolis Shooting Incident. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired August 27, 2025 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

We have breaking news tonight. A community is in mourning after a horrific act of violence. Two children, ages eight and ten, have been killed in a shooting as they were celebrating mass to mark the first week of class at an Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis.

The service had just begun and the students, the teachers, and other parishioners were just getting settled in their pews when bullets pierced the stained glass windows. A fifth grader was among those inside. And listen to this young boy describe something that no one, no one, much less a ten-year-old child, should have to go through.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WESTON HALSNE, TEN-YEAR-OLD SHOOTING SURVIVOR: I was like two seats away from the stained glass windows. So, they were like -- the shots were like right next to me.

I think I got like gunpowder on my neck.

And I just ran under the pew and then I covered my head. My friend, Victor, like saved me though because he laid on top of me, but he got hit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: At least 17 others are hurt tonight, most of them children, some of them as young as six years old. Thankfully, they are all expected to survive.

And as for the shooter, police say that that person is dead from a self-inflicted gunshot. And investigators are now combing through the mounds of evidence, including a manifesto, as they search for a motive in this horrific attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF BRIAN O'HARA, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE: This was a deliberate act of violence against innocent children and other people worshiping. The sheer cruelty and cowardice of firing into a church full of children is absolutely incomprehensible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: A church, a place of prayer and sanctuary where worshipers are meant to feel safe and protected, now has become a crime scene to an unthinkable tragedy, one that's become all too familiar in this country, in the United States of America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW DEBOER, PRINCIPAL, ANNUNCIATION SCHOOL: We lost two angels today, and please continue to pray for those still receiving care. We can't change the past, but we can do something about the future. There's an African proverb that says, when you pray, move your feet. So, I beg you, I ask you to please pray, but don't stop with your words. Let's make a difference and support this community, these children, these families, these teachers, never again can we let this happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: My colleague, CNN Anchor Laura Coates, is live in Minneapolis. Laura, there's so much to get to tonight as this community is grieving, but this also hits very close to home for you. You are a native of Minneapolis. And I want to know just from you, as you're there on the ground now, what are you seeing there? What are you feeling? How is the community coping with this unthinkable that happened today?

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, this is an unspeakable tragedy. It is so disorienting for anyone who is in their hometown or when it hits so close to home, and they think it could never happen where they're from, that the memories that are tied to their communities, their neighborhoods are never going to be tinted, tainted, or tinged with what has happened here.

And yet, behind me, there is a marquee on this school. They just started school this week. Abby, you and I are mothers. I have elementary school children who ought to be excited about starting and making new friends and the joy of childhood after a long summer as well. There's a marquee welcoming them back, but there are also police cars now reminding us all of what has happened today. Just shortly after drop off for many of these parents, they learned what was happening to their children. They were rushing back to this school.

We're hearing about heroism, where people were rushing in trying to help. There's a neighborhood around us. You've got communities like a grocery store. You've got restaurants. You've got homes that are hop, skip, and a jump from where this has actually happened who would even respond before police could even be there, hearing about people who were there to provide coffee after this group mass, who were then crawling out to the sidewalk, trying to actually get help from the community members, kids who are in school, uniforms with blood on them, where they all be thinking about their school supplies.

[22:05:09] It is so tragic.

But there's also the notion of hope when you think about the number of victims impacted and you think about those who are recovering and can survive this.

I want to bring in somebody who has been here from the beginning today. I'm talking about Shimon Prokupecz, who is here with me right now, who, sadly, you have seen your fair share just covering tragedies as well.

And here we are again in the dark of night, in the first week of school here in Minneapolis, and tragedy has struck. Tell me what you know.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Just the third day of school, right? It's Wednesday. School started on Monday. You know, I was talking to the police chief before we came on air here and I was talking about how they're still poring through all of these documents. They've been able to now do four search warrants. They've recovered a lot of writings. But what does it mean?

COATES: Right.

PROKUPECZ: There appears to be some level of sort of like it's incoherent to them right now. They don't even understand. And there's just a lot of hate towards every group imaginable and these writings talk about different things and different hatred towards different people, so it's very difficult for them at this point to say, ah, this is why this was done. But certainly the connection to the school and the church here, that's all part of the investigation.

It does appear that this individual did do some kind of preparation, right? There are what police found were these like wooden blocks that were used to prevent the doors of the church from opening so that people couldn't get out once the gunshots started.

COATES: I mean, just imagine that level of just pure, sinister, evil to try to barricade people and children in, in a mass, people in a mass. That preparation, and he had some connection to the school at one point.

PROKUPECZ: Right, yes. There was some connection. Either he went to the school and that the mother may have worked here as well there, or what's part of this church or something, there is a connection. It's not entirely clear yet. But the fact of the matter is, you know, where we stand, where we're standing, he knew this area. This individual knew this area, knew the grounds, knew where things were, knew how the school operated.

There's some indication that there was some level of planning that maybe he was, you know, sort of casing this place out before trying to figure out how things were operating. And so the shooter had some knowledge and the shooter knew what to do. And also the shooter, the police say, had fascination with other mass shootings.

So, taking all of that into consideration, there is a level of planning here that is certainly very concerning for officials.

The other thing, where this individual chose to shoot from, I, like you said, sadly, have covered so many of these and usually the person goes into the school, somehow gets inside, that didn't happen here. This shooter stood outside, went to a very specific window with the idea that children would be there praying, vulnerable, and able to hit his targets from what I believe was a stained glass window perhaps, and knew precisely where to go. And that's what's certainly very concerning for officials.

But right now, it's very hard to figure out exactly why. And I think a lot of the community and the families are going to want to know those answers. I went to a vigil tonight. I was amazed at the number of people that came out. It was at a local school here in the gym. It was filled. It was close to 2,000 people, standing room only, lines out the door almost to the parking lot of people wanting to come in and just be together with their community members.

And I think that's what's so important in all of this is to know that despite this tragedy, despite the fact that someone may be trying to tear this community apart, right now, this community is saying, no, no, no. We're going to get together and we're going to show people that we're going to get through this and there is hope. And, you know, the victims here, everyone is thinking about them. There were victims -- there are people who knew the victims here. And it was just very hard to watch because people were just crying. And it's their moment to be together.

COATES: Right.

PROKUPECZ: And tomorrow, we'll get updates. We're going to get updates from the police. They're going through everything, trying to sort all of it out. But I think for now, everyone is really just thinking about the victims here, obviously. And I think, you know, it's just how calculated all of this was and how planned everything.

COATES: Right.

PROKUPECZ: This was not someone who acted just like spur in the moment. And --

COATES: Yes. And that's going to be part of, Abby, part of the entire investigation as they try to unpack the motive. The motive is not sought to try to placate. It really is trying to understand and try to prevent, and this is just the very beginning, as they are reeling as a community here and as a nation, yet again, children impacted in a school.

[22:10:05]

PHILLIP: Yes, and law enforcement at this moment, working overtime right now to try to figure out exactly what that motive is.

Laura, we'll be back with you shortly. I do have my panel of experts here with me in the studio in New York, Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi, John Miller, Dr. Jeff Gardere, and Felipe Rodriguez. John Miller, I just want to read briefly what the FBI director, Kash Patel, said in an X post today. The FBI is investigating the shooting as an act of domestic terrorism and a hate crime targeting Catholics. My gut says, every single one of these shootings, mass shootings, is an act of terrorism in one way or another, but I wonder about the other part of it, a hate crime. What are you seeing in the evidence that we've seen so far that led them to that kind of investigation, that conclusion at this moment?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Going through the writings particularly going through the videos as he, the shooter, laid out his weapons and held up each individual parts, what you saw there was a pervasive message of hate, hate against blacks, hate against Jews, hate against God, and the target, of course, being a Catholic church.

But there's also a degree of posturing there about what we're going to investigate it as. They're investigating it in support of the Minneapolis Police who have a homicide case. The offender is dead. It is doubtful that anyone other than the offender, unless we learn something very new in the next couple of days, is going to be charged.

I almost find the conclusion that it's a hate crime against Catholics premature in that we are trying to attach rational motives to a completely irrational act.

DR. JEFF GARDERE, BOARD CERTIFIED CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. Where is the political ideology here, right? This is someone who actually attended that school at some point, so we may assume, I'm not sure, that this person is Catholic also. But what we're looking at here is there any rationality to what this person does? This is what we see with terrorism, right? You want to terrorize a particular society with whatever your ideas are to push that idea. This is a person who we've seen with other shooters will most likely be someone with extreme mental illness.

PHILLIP: Yes. And, actually, you know, one of the perplexing things about these perpetrators is that they do often have these scattered motivations. And as John was saying, you have the ammunition, the magazines, the guns that had writing on it with all kinds of messages of hate. You also have this disturbing notebook, a letter that he wrote, or that this person wrote, that said, in regards to my motivation behind the attack, I can't really put my finger on a specific purpose. It definitely wouldn't be for racism or white supremacy. I don't want to do it to spread a message. I do it to please myself. I do it because I am sick.

There's an awareness there of sickness, of mental illness, of something going on.

ANNA-SIGGA NICOLAZZI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY HOMICIDE PROSECUTOR: Which would also go if we were ever going to get into a courtroom, do you know right from wrong? And certainly this person seemed to. Mental health component, I feel like Jeff said, absolutely, we're going to see. But so often with these -- I mean, this is a lone wolf scenario. Domestic terrorism, especially in the age of the internet, you can be radicalized. It is often someone, whether because of their own struggles or they're sitting in a room, they have pulled them self out of society or had their own issues that now here they are feeding off of whether it's the dark web or here idolizing other mass shooters, which, unfortunately, sometimes in homicide cases we see it is whatever -- whether it's self hatred or whatever's going on in his own life or her own life, that they -- this person wants to be idolized in the same manner by others that they view like themselves, which none of most of us can and should be able to understand, right?

But as I think, like Laura was saying when she was talking with you, Abby, it is so often -- we don't want to give this person any more attention. They've taken so much, but it is only to try to understand to try to prevent.

PHILLIP: Yes.

MILLER: And just to follow up on that. I mean, if you get into his writings the note to the family and friends, I have wanted this for so long. I am not well, I am not right. I'm a sad person, haunted by these thoughts that do not go away. I know this is wrong. There's a note there about right from wrong. He understands that he, what he is doing is wrong. He says, I'm sorry, but he's in too much pain.

PHILLIP: So, Dr. Jeff, I promise I will get you in just a second, but I just want to -- on that note real quick, I know this is wrong, this person carries out the attack, but also there's clearly -- I mean, whether they said it or not, there's mental illness happening here. So, how do you interpret that as a professional?

GARDERE: Well, if this -- of course, when it goes -- you know, when we do more work on this, if this person were to have survived this, right?

[22:15:05]

And so the judge comes in and says, well, I would like to know what is the mental competence of this person. We use the standard right from wrong, did they know right from wrong? But when we're looking clearly just at mental health or mental illness, that person can say, yes, I know right from wrong, but it doesn't exclude the fact that the person has a severe mental illness.

And my question is, what was the breaking point for this individual that they actually acted on these thoughts?

PHILLIP: I mean, I also want to know, Felipe, and I imagine law enforcement is looking into this, who else knew what this person was struggling with psychologically? What other clues were there? And Robin Westman was able to obtain legally a rifle, a shotgun, and a pistol. To me, a mountain of questions then open up from just those pieces of information.

FELIPE RODRIGUEZ, RETIRED NYPD SERGEANT: The first question that I'm seeing, right, we have a 20-year-old individual that goes on the internet and the level of hatred that he was displaying, where did he pick this up from? I mean, how much could he have gone through his life that he had this much hatred for African Americans, for Catholics, and everything else? At the end of the day, how did he possess three firearms, you know, and the level and the complexity that he carried it out, right? You come with a rifle, a shotgun, and a handgun.

There's different ways and different methodology of being able to attack something. And he brought all these different concepts and was able to carry out such a complex plan. So, it shows a high degree of intelligence.

PHILLIP: And there's knowledge, but there's deep knowledge of this place, right, because of the connection to the school. So, in a way, it was a, dare I say, easy target when you don't have to necessarily case it because he --

RODRIGUEZ: A soft target, right.

PHILLIP: Yes, they know what it's like to be in that room probably at mass.

RODRIGUEZ: So, he had advanced intelligence.

PHILLIP: Yes.

GARDERE: But going back to your earlier question, what did the family know, right?

PHILLIP: Yes.

GARDERE: These are the worst kept secrets when it comes to trying to hide mental illness. Family know, some friends, know people know something was going on. You don't have -- perpetrate that kind of violence without people knowing that perhaps this person was having a nervous breakdown or their behavior was really odd, or the way they talk to other people, or their ideas about government or others, it is obvious to them. And I think that's where a lot of this investigation is going to go.

PHILLIP: Thank you all.

Coming up for us, we'll speak with a father whose daughter was in the mass and did survive the shooting.

You're watching CNN special coverage of the deadly shooting in Minneapolis. We'll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'HARA: The dozens of officers that responded to this scene, many of them are deeply traumatized by what they saw, as are obviously all of the children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:20:00]

PHILLIP: Back to our breaking news, a mass shooting at a Catholic school and church in Minneapolis. Two children were killed as they were sitting in their pews at just eight and ten years old. At least 17 others are injured. And they were all just starting their first week of classes at Annunciation Catholic School. And in just seconds, that moment turned into a nightmare.

Tonight people are gathered for a vigil as the community is beginning this process of healing. Listen to a parent as they describe what it was like when those shots rang out earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERS HOLINE, PARENT: And I ran in as the police were there getting there kind of alongside. It was just chaos. Then just started helping kids out, you know? I saw a lot of injured kids. It was tough. It was -- and I just, you know, selfishly was just like, where are my girls? Where is Jun (ph) and Olive? That's all I could think about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Let's go back now live to Minneapolis and CNN Anchor Laura Coates is there. Laura?

COATES: Abby, this is such a day of tragedy, which should have been a day of joy for so many kids in their first week of school at the school just behind me. And one of the parents of a student at this school is in real time dealing with the consequences of this horrible gun violence.

I'm joined now by a prominent Twin Cities chef, Vincent Francoual, whose child endured this experience as well. Vincent, thank you for joining us.

I cannot imagine as a parent what today has been like for you. Can you just walk me through what happened this morning? I mean, it wasn't just long after you dropped your daughter to school that all of a sudden you received a call and went into survival mode to go back. Tell me what happened.

VINCENT FRANCOUAL, DAUGHTER WAS IN SCHOOL'S MASS DURING SHOOTING: So, we live three blocks from the school. So, we drop our kids, as we did, our Chloe (ph). We walked to the school every time. Today, it was with my wife too, and we stopped for coffee on the way back. We saw all the kids going into the church. But at that time, I got a phone call, so I had to go quickly to do something. And then I got a text from my wife, Brenda, telling me there's a shooting at school.

So I was in the central part of the town. And, for me, I went kind of like, okay, (INAUDIBLE), I'm going to drive back and tried to figure out the news, and then I dropped, stopped, you know, I parked at the house and walked there, and that's where I saw the cop. I saw an officer and I said, I'm a family, and she showed me where to go and all that.

[22:25:01]

And in between, I got a text from my wife, Brenda, telling me that our Chloe was okay.

And then everything kind of became a blur. You know, you walk through those guys, the machine gun, there's cop everywhere, the helicopter on top, and you're like, okay. And so when we went to the gym wit them and saw Chloe, which is her and my wife (ph).

COATES: Did you -- when you heard the helicopters, when you saw the children outside, could you see what had happened in that moment of chaos? Did you -- when you found your daughter, did she tell you what happened?

FRANCOUAL: So, I had no idea what was going on. So, I came in and I can't keep my cool, but when I walked into the school, I start to realize something is bad, you know? And so our daughter was crying. We were all parents crying and hugging our kids, and then they move us to the auditorium to do the count of the kids. And we start to see the story. You see kids wearing shirt with blood of all the kids, and you're like, okay, this is bad.

At that time, we didn't know there was two of our kids who got killed, you know, and as we went, you know, we just -- we left, went back home since we were nearby and then we start to look at the news a bit. And, you know, as the story developed, the trauma developed and our daughter was very -- I mean, she's traumatized. We got home. She closed everything. She didn't want me to walk the dog because she thought it was unsafe. And so, you know, we're kind of making pieces (ph).

So, it just, you know -- and she just talked -- she talked to a counselor and she told the counselor that today she thought she was going to die.

COATES: Look, I cannot imagine this little girl at school thinking that, feeling that, seeing what they've seen, and you as obviously trying to comfort her. I understand that the trauma of this, I mean, obviously she's still processing what has happened. But what could you say to her to try to make her feel safe? Are there any words or even coming to you to try to help your daughter?

FRANCOAUL: Yes. So, my approach to it was, you know, someone really sick did that. There's no explanation. We -- you know, society, we try to explain everything, but there's just no explanation. It's the anger, you know, someone who's really sick. And, you know, we can, you know, think of overall, but it's just a sick person who did something terrible who was able to get a gun. And that's basically what I told her. She made us promise that we won't hide anything from her, so we won't hide. We just try to tell her the truth and to keep it also in a sense that it's a terrible thing that happened, that we won't know really, because, obviously, the killer got is dead. You know, how do you explain all that?

There's no explanation now. We have new territory with our daughter. And when I say, we, I mean every family with a kid. I'm here in a house of a friend where all the -- a large number of family gathered. You know, one of the kid who got killed, we were on vacation with them in April. So, it's a tight community and all that. So, we have no idea what's going to happen. We right now do it by the hour tonight. Hopefully, she's going to sleep. I don't know. We -- the mental weight on what happened today is, the trauma, we just -- we are in new territory.

So, you know, we take in one day at a time but Annunciation School is a great community. I was walking around the neighborhood with my dog and I got neighbors stopping, hugging us, like some people, like I barely know. And so what we have, it's a great family. It's a great community. It's a great city. Minneapolis is a fantastic city whatever's going to be said later on. And we are all here together. And we're just going to have to go through it because there's no other way, you know?

COATES: Minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour and day-by-day, I know. Thank you so much.

FRANCOUAL: Thank you.

COATES: Abby, it's so devastating to think about what a 12 -- I mean a 12-year-old, and there are other elementary school children and adults who are grieving through and having to take this minute by minute as law enforcement tries to conduct their investigation, figure out what has happened here, who knew what, if anything, and just looking to try to prevent another tragedy while still recognizing the gravity of what has happened here.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah. It is, another generation traumatized by these things that are happening.

COATES: Yeah.

PHILLIP: All too often. Laura, thank you for that emotional interview. I'm still here in New York with my panel. Just as we were sitting here, an alert came through from the police chief, John Miller, saying that, this, individual who perpetrated this, as you heard that father say, he told his daughter was a sick person who was able to get a gun.

We are now learning that those weapons -- the permits for those weapons were obtained recently according to the police chief, and that's not surprising. I mean, according to what we have seen in all these mass shootings that we have covered, it is usually some version of that.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENTAND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: You know, about 70 percent of these guns used in active shooter situations are legally owned and purchased. The majority are purchased legally, and then the rest of that 70 percent is made up of guns that were owned by the individual before the shooting. In this case, because of the proximity of the purchases, and the obtaining of the permit, it was part of the package. But take a look at the shooting that we had back in July, 345 Park

Avenue, Midtown Manhattan, drove from Las Vegas to attack the NFL, ended up shooting people in the lobby and upstairs. That individual had a carry permit from Las Vegas, you know, County Police, had a private investigator's license.

When you're purchasing these weapons, you fill out that ATF form, 4473, I think it is. And it's are you convicted of a serious crime, you know, domestic abuse, order protection? But once you get through that and say no mental illness and there's no record of you being adjudicated by a court as mentally ill, they're going to issue that weapon for a permit.

PHILLIP: Yeah. And, you know, that last part is so important because when we -- we're asking these questions to figure out how to get ahead of something like this happening again, how to intervene before someone becomes a mass shooter, what do you think is a point of intervention, perhaps, with some of these people who actually -- so many of them have very similar profiles in terms of what they're struggling with, what they want to do, when they carry out these attacks?

ANNA-SIGGA NICOLAZZI, FORMER NYC HOMICIDE PROSECUTOR: And it is interesting because when we look at these mass shootings we've had I believe it's 286 in The United States this year alone, there is a commonality. But when we talk about the intervention and if we all had that -- that magic answer, we certainly would have gone out there. But it does seem unfortunately to be much earlier than when they've already gotten to this point.

But it's so hard. I mean, every one of us in our own lives knows someone that has some mental health component and most people fortunately are able to live lives that are absolutely productive and non-violent and there's all different degrees. But once it gets past that point, is it the teacher? Is it a parent? And we talked about this, off camera just earlier that so often, it isn't so much turning a blind eye to the illness but almost wants to shield that person, can't imagine that person is going to take steps like what we saw today.

But, you know, when we talk about unwinding, what is happening with law enforcement prosecutors now? Like, there's no one to prosecute in court but we absolutely need to know everything about this person to get to -- well, what did we know before they went and got the gun? And what John said is really important is if they were adjudicated by a court. So, because people say outrageous. Of course, this person has a mental health component going on, but --

PHILLIP: But that is so much harder.

(CROSSTALK)

NICOLAZZI: It's harder for the people.

PHILLIP: But yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: It's harder for the people.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: But yeah.

JEFF GARDERE, BOARD CERTIFIED CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: But you can mask it. That's the thing. You can mask that mental illness, right? Or it's a situation of where you're getting adequate treatment and doing well, and then you deteriorate after you get the guns. But I think one of the things that we're seeing nationwide, a lot of school systems, and I know Illinois may be one of the first states that is requiring mental health assessments. Now, people see --

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: In order to get a gun? To get a gun?

GARDERE: No. No. Mental -- mental health assessments in schools --

PHILLIP: In schools. I see.

GARDERE: -- in order to determine if there is some sort of an issue with a student with a child. A lot of people see that as an intrusion into their homes. But what we need to understand is if it is carried out properly, it is flagging perhaps someone who needs help.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Yeah, it could be preventative.

GARDERE: Exactly.

PHILLIP: For all kinds of different reasons. Not just physically.

(CROSSTALK)

GARDERE: Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

MILLER: I do have a brief public service announcement here.

PHILLIP: Yeah.

MILLER: Everybody wants to know detection, why not earlier, people saw.

[22:35:01]

But a lot of people ask, well, what is it that I'm looking for?

PHILLIP: Right.

MILLER: And fbi.gov/prevention -- these are the FBI profilers. They've studied every one of these shootings. They have put together lists. This is what you're looking for. Behaviors, different actions that people take. They have booklets. They have brochures. They have PowerPoints. There's a tool set in here for teachers and guidance counselors, for students, for friends, for family members of exactly what you're looking for in many forms. And --

PHILLIP: That's incredibly helpful.

MILLER: There's a --

PHILLIP: I don't think a lot of people even know that exists.

MILLER: No, no. And there's a quote here. "When you know something is wrong, but you don't want to say it, talk to somebody about it, report it, even if they're your friends, brother, family. Don't let that hold you back from doing the right thing," statement by a close friend of an active shooter.

PHILLIP: Yeah.

FELIPE RODRIQUEZ, RETIRED NYPD SERGEANT: John came up with a very good point that I do -- we need to expand upon a bit. We talk about being adjudicated mentally ill. At this point, that's something that's very difficult and, you know, and we see it in New York City because I did it numerous times for law enforcement. We're trying to get that person who's really violent. We're trying to get them to deescalate. And we say, listen. If you self-admit, you'll be able to check yourself out of the hospital.

While if you go to other states, which I was a deputy in Florida, and we say, do we do something? We do a Baker Act. You're automatically held for at least three days. So, that difference in the evaluation that's being done in New York and Florida is very different, and that's why it becomes so difficult to actually adjudicate someone mentally ill.

PHILLIP: We have to, as a country, take a look at all of this. And we never have, not since Sandy Hook when everybody thought that would be the last time we would ever let something like this happen. And then we don't even take the basic steps and say, what really needs to happen across the country to get ahead of all of this? The mental health, the guns, all aspects of this, problem.

There's so much here to unpack. John Miller, Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi, thank you both very much for joining us. More ahead for us on this deadly shooting in Minneapolis as two children are now dead after a shooter opened fire at a Catholic school mass. What we are hearing from lawmakers in the area, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:41:43]

PHILLIP: Welcome back. We've been following the latest developments from this morning's tragedy at a Catholic school in Minneapolis. Two children were killed and pronounced dead at the scene. Three adults and 14 other children were injured by gunfire. The children all were between the ages of six and 15, and six are believed to still be in critical condition.

And like the other school shootings, too many, that this country has become very familiar with, it was followed by a chorus of thoughts and prayers. But Minneapolis' mayor is fed up with that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JACOB FREY (D) MINNEAPOLIS: Don't just say this is about thoughts and prayers right now. These kids were literally praying. It was the first week of school. They were in a church. These are kids that should be learning with their friends. They should be playing on the playground. They should be able to go to school or church in peace without the fear or risk of violence, and their parents should have the same kind of assurance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Bakari Sellers and Scott Jennings are here with us now. Bakari, earlier in the show, we played the sound bite from the principal who said, you know, this African proverb, when you pray, move your feet.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah.

PHILLIP: There are many people who want feet to move in the direction of actually addressing what's going on here, rather than just saying it's just something that happens here.

SELLERS: Yeah, but I mean I think we're kind of past that. I mean, most people realize that when you were able to kill 20 some odd young white children in Sandy Hook and nothing changed, that nothing was really going to fundamentally change in this country. This is another sad tragedy.

But the problem is that there's an outrage from the right about Jacob Frey. And I'm not a huge Jacob Frey -- fry, mayor of Minneapolis. I'm not a huge fan, but he was right. I mean, the book of James teaches us that faith without works is dead.

And so whether or not he was echoing that sentiment or echoing that scripture, I think that there are a lot of people who were tired of thoughts and prayers because at the end of the day, thoughts and prayers ring hollow. At the end of the day, thoughts and prayers have led us to having, more of these deaths, more of these shootings, more of these individuals who were killed inside of churches, inside of schools, or in pews. And so --

PHILLIP: And people who are adjudicated, you know, I shouldn't say adjudicated. But people who have known mental illness are still able to very easily, it looks like according to the police chief in Minneapolis, recently, could just go in and get three guns, and then use those guns to murder children in a school.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I actually I had a negative reaction to the mayor's statements today. I think it's wrong, frankly, to vilify or attack people of faith. You said thoughts and prayers ring hollow. I think thoughts and prayers are the most solid on days of tragedy for people who live their faith every day.

And I think on a day like today, particularly in a church community, there are probably people praying harder for comfort today than they have ever prayed in their life. And so I think, and I've heard others on the left today that go down this line of attack against people of faith, sort of denigrating the idea that they might want to pray today.

[22:45:00]

And so, I think his statements were misguided. The thing that struck me today, Abby, truthfully, when I was watching this unfold, was that the two little ones that died were eight and 10.

I have seven and nine. Those are my two youngest. They turn eight and 10 in a few days and I, you know, we could probably sit here and argue out all the issues of faith and transgenderism, and all the other things that have been raised today. But it strikes me that none of us ever want to know the terror and the absolute empty hole that will never be filled that those parents of the eight and 10 year old are going to feel.

And I just thought maybe tonight, the most useful thing any of us could do would take ten seconds and just sit quietly, and be still and be quiet, and think about those families because they are never going to be the same, no matter what we say.

PHILLIP: They aren't. And I think that this is, you know, so many times I've sat in this chair all time -- all hours of the day and night, and it doesn't matter what time of day, what day of the week, there's another mass shooting in this country. There are people like Senator Chris Murphy who represents Connecticut where Sandy Hook happened. I remember when that happened. And again, many people thought that was -- we were -- how could we allow this to happen again? It did many times since then.

But Chris Murphy tonight was speaking with my colleague Anderson Cooper, and he actually points out something I don't think people have noticed. He says, mass shootings have been going down, and here's what he's saying is why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D) CONNECTICUT: The rate of mass shootings and school shootings in this country is coming down, not going up. And it started coming down in 2022 when we passed the first significant anti- gun violence bill in thirty years.

We now have proof of concept in this country that if you are more careful about putting guns in the hands of dangerous people, you can save thousands of lives. The mythology that the gun lobby has disseminated across this country for decades that more guns makes us more safe. That's just empirically false. (END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: What do you think about that, Philippe?

RODRIGUEZ: At the end of the day, you know, possessing a firearm is a big responsibility. And at the day now that we have mental health issues constantly being at the center of all these shootings, we have to do something to address that, you know? Like I said before, in law enforcement, we would actually coast people to, you know what, turn yourself in basically, go in as a self-admitted person.

This way, you won't be detained in the mental health facility for a great amount of time. And at the end of the day, it comes to bite us back because the person's not really getting the help that they should. And we do have a mental health crisis.

PHILLIP: Yeah.

GARDERE: Well, we do have a mental health crisis, but I do want to say, first of all, as a psychologist, I think it's important that we don't stigmatize people who do have mental health challenges, mental health problems. They're the ones who are victimized more often.

That being said, going back to the situation of prayers, I think prayers are important, Scott, but I think people want more than prayers at this point. They're really angry. What are we doing in government? What are we doing in federal government that seems to be pulling back from gun, violence prevention, from community safety and so on?

So, yes, prayer is important. I pray all the time. I'm praying for those families. But what are we going to do after the prayers? How are we going to come together as a society, as politicians, bipartisan action to be able to protect children? How long will we allow them to be collateral damage due to our ideological difference?

PHILLIP: Yeah. That's a good question, Scott. What happens after? I mean, what should happen now to stop this --

JENNINGS: Oh, well --

PHILLIP: -- from your perspective as a -- as a Republican?

JENNINGS: Sure. Well, I think -- I think the first question you have to ask is why did it happen? I don't think it happened because of guns. I think it happened because somebody who was clearly suffering from severe mental illness had --

PHILLIP: -- had access to weapons that would allow them to carry out a terrible shooting.

JENNINGS: -- and well, and -- the mental illness was encouraged. And --

GARDERE: But Scott, what about people who don't have mental illness? JENNINGS: I don't think you could tip toe around this issue. And when you look at the messages that were written, in some of the materials and on the weapons that we've seen, I mean, and this person obviously was in a dark, dark place.

GARDERE: Obviously.

JENNINGS: Now, I want to know --

GARDERE: Obviously.

JENNINGS: I'm not sure the government is in that person's life enough to know. But his parents are --

GARDERE: But what about -- Scott, what about people who don't have mental illness? We have a huge gun violence issue here in The United States. We lead in gun violence.

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: But the issue today is quite obviously mental illness and --

(CROSSTALK)

GARDERE: If you take away the mental illness, they'd still use the guns.

SELLERS: The problem is that the -- this issue can't be isolated in the vacuum of today. And I think to your point --

GARDERE: I agree.

SELLERS: Mental illness is a cop out for today, which is also why I believe that, you know, I love how the GOP believes that that's God's only party, right?

[22:50:01]

But you have people of faith on both sides.

JENNINGS: I don't believe that. We're all God's children.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: There are people of faith on both sides who are giving their prayers, but who also believe that action is required because you asked the question. You asked the question, what happens after the prayers? Well, in this country, what happens after the prayers is that there's another shooting.

And the problem is it's the damn guns. Like, there is a mental health problem in this country. I have a CWP. In fact, I took my CWP class with Governor Nikki Haley. We sat beside each other. We went shooting together. That is not foreign in South Carolina. I believe in that amendment and that right. However, the accessibility of weapons is something we have to deal with. Mental health resources is something we have to deal with. And the fact that people get killed in churches, whether or not it's June 2015 in in Charleston, South Carolina, or whether or not it's kids in Minnesota who get killed and they -- I mean, as a person of faith, it should shake your faith to the core that people are getting gunned down in churches.

PHILLIP: Everyone --

(CROSSTALK)

GARDERE: And other houses are worship.

PHILLIP: We have to leave the conversation there.

SELLERS: And other houses of worship.

PHILLIP: Thank you for joining us. We'll be right back in a moment.

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[22:55:48]

PHILLIP: Tonight, heroism from people who should not have to be heroes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW DEBOER, PRINCIPAL, ANNUNCIATION CATHOLIC SCHOOL: Within seconds of this situation beginning, our teachers were heroes. Children were ducked down. Adults were protecting children. Older children were protecting younger children. And as we heard earlier, it could have been significantly worse without their heroic action.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: They are all heroes in the worst of times. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". CNN's coverage of this deadly shooting in Minneapolis continues with "Laura Coates Live" which starts right after this.

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