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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Is America on a Fast Track Toward Autocracy; Fed Gov. Lisa Cook Sues Trump Over Attempted Firing; Judge Sets Friday Hearing in Trump's Attempt to Fire Fed Governo. CDC Staff Members Honor Resigned Top Officials After Monarez Ouster; U.S. Air Force Will Offer Military Funeral Honors To Ashley Babbitt. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired August 28, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, Trump's influence is everywhere. The FBI, the Fed, the DOJ, the National Guard, all being retooled to do the president's bidding.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Not that I don't have the right to do anything I want to do. I'm the president of the United States.
PHILLIP: The right says this is what the country voted for, but the left is sounding the alarm. And Barack Obama is weighing in.
Plus, Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook is suing. She says her firing was unprecedented and illegal. They face off in court tomorrow.
Also a sign of solidarity, CDC employees rally for their ousted director. The White House says she didn't want to make America healthy again.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president has the authority to fire those who are not aligned with his mission.
PHILLIP: And the Air Force doing a 180, a January 6th rioter now getting an official military funeral, as Trump's insurrection rehabilitation tour marches on.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, S.E. Cupp, Pete Seat, Jennifer Welch and Donte Mills.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, autocracy, and is America on the fast track toward it? We are seven months into the second term of President Trump and his grip on government has only gotten tighter. Here's a short list of the norms that the White House has broken, putting the U.S. military on American streets, launching investigations into political opponents, threatening to overhaul independent agencies, leveraging influence over media, universities, and the arts, the museums as well, skirting due process and the rule of law as they seek mass deportations.
But does that all amount to authoritarianism? Well, Comedian Bill Maher thinks so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL MAHER, HOST, REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER: If there was a slow moving coup, let me just describe some of the steps and you tell me if I'm being paranoid. First, create a masked police force, normalize snatching people off the street, normalize seeing the National Guard and the military on the street.
The Democrats do have a chance of winning and they might win the next election. I just don't think they're ever going to take power because this is what's going to happen. Because I think this coup is going to go off a lot smoother than the last one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Former President Obama is also weighing in online, ushering his followers to listen to a New York Times podcast by columnist Ezra Klein. It calls some of the recent trends of militarization, quote, dangerous, adding that the erosion of basic principles like due process and the expanding use of our military on domestic soil puts the liberties of all Americans at risk and should concern Democrats and Republicans alike.
Here is part of that podcast.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EZRA KLEIN, HOST, THE EZRA KLEIN SHOW: But if I imagine reading a book, reading a history of this period in ten years, in this period having gone really badly, having either created a tipping into authoritarianism in a way that you cannot deny, or having created some kind of genuinely violent flashpoint between the government and its citizenry.
This is the way I would've expected this set of chapters in the early months to read, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
KLEIN: These are the chapters where if you were reading them and it gets worse, it wouldn't feel like a surprise. It would feel like a linear progression.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, Jennifer, there are some Democrats who have been at this level, if this is a ten, they've been at a ten for a while now. But there are some people, and I think one of them is the person that Ezra Klein was talking to in that podcast, Radley Balko, and even President Obama, who have been kind of reluctant to go there, but they're going there now. I mean, do you see that shift happening?
JENNIFER WELCH, PODCAST CO-HOST, I'VE HAD IT: Definitely. It's definitely happening. You see complete moral collapse of the United States government. The cabinet meeting with three and a half hours of superficial praise is so cringe worthy. He's attacking the Fed. He's attacking all of our institutions. He's eliminating FEMA.
[22:05:00]
It is horrifying that he is putting troops against American citizens because he claims that he's the law and order president, but we all know that's a lie because he's a felon. He pardons convicted felons. He surrounds himself with obsequious people that kiss his ass all day every day. It's nauseating and painful to see how weak he is to Vladimir Putin and others.
PHILLIP: S.E., I mean, what do you think about all of this? A lot of people say that alarmism doesn't help Democrats, but there are also things happening that Trump is doing that are alarming, even conservatives.
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, alarmism alone doesn't do anything, and I think Democrats have gotten very good at correctly identifying the problem, naming the problem, whether it's fascism or authoritarianism. This is all true.
PHILLIP: Do you think that's an accurate description of what is happening right now?
CUPP: Absolutely, without question. We've had many conversations at this table. Bill Maher ticked down some examples, but so what, and what, and what next? The conversations I don't hear Democrats having is what we're going to do about it. It can't just be Gavin Newsom tweeting like the president does. That's not it. It can't be sit-ins and protests. If Democrats want to combat this and get a chance at another election, and I understand where Bill Maher is going with this, that like elections might not happen in future years if this continues.
They've got to win. They've got to win elections. And no one in the party, and I talk to Democrats all day long, no one is talking about where's our agenda? Where's our new deal, our contract with America? What's our platform to identify and solve the problems that Americans are screaming they have? Only Trump is saying, here's my answer for them. We don't like the answers but he's answering them. Democrats aren't even asking the question. They're just naming the problem over and over again in an echo chamber.
PHILLIP: You could make an argument that naming the problem is not an unreasonable thing to do because there are some people who are -- you know, they think the analogy is like a frog boiling slowly in water, that you don't really notice what's happening until it's too late.
CUPP: Well, we all notice it. Who's not noticing it? Everyone notices it.
PHILLIP: A couple of people at the table here probably disagree, so we'll --
CUPP: But I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to Democrats. They all notice it.
PHILLIP: We'll get their views in just a second, but go ahead, Donte.
DONTE MILLS, NATIONAL TRIAL ATTORNEY: The issue with Democrats is, how do you attack it? Because Donald Trump does not operate politically, he does not operate within the structure of our government as it was put together and as it functioned for hundreds of years. He operates outside of that.
CUPP: But is there other options than attacking Donald Trump?
MILLS: So, you're asking politicians not be political to step aside and say, I'm going to ignore the rule of law, I'm going to tell people if a judge rules against me that judge is a bad person and not to listen to them. I don't know if we want Democrats to join in that fight, but there has to be a way to combat it.
CUPP: No one's saying that. But for three election cycles, the Democratic plan seems to have been let Trump hang himself and go after Trump. This isn't about Trump. The voters need to be talked to in ways that aren't Democrats sneering at them saying, you're safe, look at this graph, the economy's great, look at these numbers.
MILLS: But that may be --
(CROSSTALKS)
PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: But that's exactly what Democrats are doing. They're doing it with illegal immigrants, they're doing it with crime and they're doing it with the government. You said it's the way government functions. A super majority of the American people say government is dysfunctional. They don't trust government.
Go back to the Ike LBJ days and trust in government was in the 70s. Today, it's in the 30s, the low watermark, and I think it's delicious that Barack Obama is weighing in, the low watermark during the era was 10 percent when Barack Obama was president. Only 10 percent of Americans trusted government.
That's what propelled Donald Trump into the White House. He's being responsive to the problems that Americans are facing, but you can't trust government and he's enforcing the laws that are on the books.
MILLS: We can talk about those numbers.
SEAT: Putting in troops in Washington is the law.
MILLS: When they call in Republican leaders from Indiana and say, hey, you have to figure out a way to redistrict so that we can get more seats, that's not how government.
SEAT: And it's 100 percent legal in the state of Indiana. You can do that. There's no prohibition. Now, whether they will do it or not --
PHILLIP: I think this is actually -- this is a very key point that you just brought up. I mean, whether it's Indiana or anything else that Trump is doing D.C., lots of things are permissible, but many presidents, many political figures before Trump did not do them. Because in this country there's a -- you have choices here, right? There are laws on the books that allow you to do certain things, and many politicians say, we're not going to go there because, let's say, hypothetically, that's reserved for extreme circumstances.
I think what people are responding to right now is Trump looking at all those things and saying, I'm going to do what, as he said, whatever I want, if there is any inkling of a chance that I have the power to do it.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, he is exercising political power, and as Pete pointed out about the redistricting, it is legal to do. I think the National Guard in Washington, D.C., not only is legal, but I think even the mayor of Washington, D.C., this week has said, hey, it seems to be working.
[22:10:05]
So, I think the alarmism from Trump's biggest detractors is the same kind of rhetoric and alarmism that they were sounding back in September and October during the election. And how did the American people respond to it then? They voted for Donald Trump.
The way you solve all problems in a political system is you go out and try to win an election. And --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: The Democrats did not win the last election for a reason. They may not win the next one for a reason. And so in a political system, you have to trust the voters. The voters elected Donald Trump. He's basically running the play that he laid out. And, yes, I understand the whining and alarmism now, but the way you solve all your problems in politics is to convince people that you are right and they are wrong, and you do it at the ballot box.
PHILLIP: That is very true that Democrats, as everybody's pointed out, have to do -- they have to win elections. That's the only recourse at this point.
But I want to play another bit from the Ezra Klein Show. This is the investigative journalist, Radley Balko talking about a quote from a conservative named Michael Leaden who was talking about Iran. This is the context here, comparing what's happening today to what this conservative was saying was happening in Iran a couple of decades ago. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KLEIN: The other thing, you know, we're seeing is obviously the masks.
When the agents of the government hide their faces, it speaks volumes about the relationship between the government and the people, right? And he was saying this, that this is a side of a totalitarian state. And now it's just routine. I mean, we're seeing this all over the country. I think we're vastly -- we have entered kind of the worst case scenario and it's hard to see how we get out of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You know, Pete, honestly, when you look at other countries and you see things like that in places like Iran and elsewhere, agents of the state masking their faces, hiding their identities. What is your gut feeling about that when you see those images and why perhaps do some people not apply that to the United States when it's happening here?
SEAT: I would prefer that these ice agents weren't covering their face, but I understand why. I understand that there are threats against them and they have to also protect their safety in what is a very volatile world, whether ICE is enforcing immigration laws or not.
PHILLIP: But don't you think -- look, rank and file police officers in this country are carrying out law enforcement activities every single day. FBI agents, regular police officers, they are not covering their faces. And what he's talking about in that clip is the relationship between law enforcement and the community that they serve. And what happens when that gets broken down, when agents close their faces off to the world and say, I'm not accountable to you. I think that is one of the things that has alarmed people.
MILLS: And we've reached forward to neighborhood policing and making it so that now the communities have the relationship with the people that are -- their job is to keep them safe. But you're bringing in military who they're not trained to do that. They're trained to be in Syria and Iraq and Iran, in places where it's combative. That's a different mindset. And we don't want to make that where we have those people coming into our communities, they don't know the lingo, they don't know the verbiage and the people in the neighborhoods and how they act and what is okay, what's not okay, where the safe places are. So, you're creating a situation that can boil over and people can get hurt because you're putting people that don't understand them.
SEAT: That has been said for weeks now. And tell me one example of when that's happened.
PHILLIP: Of what?
MILLS: Of what?
SEAT: Of these clashes between the National Guard and citizenry.
PHILLIP: Oh, they are happening every day.
SEAT: I mean, they happen in L.A. with protesters, in Washington, D.C.
PHILLIP: There are clashes between these forces. I mean, they're all different types, right? It's a lot of different agencies that are involved here. And regular citizens every day, maybe you haven't seen them, but they are happening.
I think the point that he's making is, when people sign up to serve in the military, they're not signing up to police their fellow citizens. They're signing up to defend the homeland.
JENNINGS: National Guard, though, does sign up to, to engage in emergency situations.
PHILLIP: Yes. But that is different from policing. We all know that. But, Scott, I know you were going to say something. Scott was going to say something.
JENNINGS: On the masks, I actually interviewed the director of ICE today, Todd Lyons, on my radio show for about 20 minutes. I asked him point blank about the masks. I said, what is the situation with the masks? Why is it happening? What is your observation? He said, I don't like the masks. I wish we didn't have to do the masks. He said, back in March, we weren't. But then something changed. And what changed was people started doxxing these ICE agents posting their personal information, posting where their families are, posting where their kids' schools are, putting them and their families in jeopardy.
PHILLIP: I understand that, Scott.
JENNINGS: And he doesn't want them to have to do it.
PHILLIP: But that is a risk that every law enforcement officer in this country faces, everyone.
JENNINGS: Do you think they deserve -- do you think they should face that risk?
PHILLIP: I'm not saying -- listen, I'm not saying that that is right. I'm not saying that it's good, it's terrible. No one should be doxxed. No one's families should be brought into their work.
[22:15:00]
But what I am saying is that there are beat officers in this country, in every city in America, who are doing their jobs in extremely dangerous situations, and they show their face. Why? Because they work for the people. That is the reason.
So, the argument here is that's a risk that you take when you take on this responsibility of having law enforcement power in this country because the accountability is between you and the people.
JENNINGS: Yes. Well, A, I don't agree that law enforcement officers in any agency should have to face the risk of their family being assaulted, or themselves.
PHILLIP: I don't agree with that either. But I do think that the accountability piece of it cannot be ignored.
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: Of course, there should be accountability. And I agree with you about the relationship between policing agencies in the community. Unfortunately, in this case, certain people in our community have decided to take matters in their own hands. I heard a clip today of a congressman named John Larson from Minnesota screaming into a microphone. This is Nazi Germany. They're the Gestapo. What do you think that does to radicalized people? That is irresponsible. And it's not the fault of an ICE agent for that kind of rhetoric to be in our system.
WELCH: Everybody's missing the point here. The point is he's doing this on purpose. He's priming the public to get accustomed to having the military in the streets. He's priming you to have distrust in the rule of law. He himself is a convicted felon. He opposes the rule of law. And we know this because he pardoned people that beat up cops on January 6th. Meanwhile, this guy, this should be the lead story, is clearly suffering from massive mental decline. He is out of his mind with all of the show and tell procedures that go on in the Oval Office.
Two days ago, he gave three press conferences in a row. And if you don't think he has dementia, let's just discuss the time that when he was on the campaign trail that he tried to perform oral sex on a microphone. If Joe Biden did this --
JENNINGS: I hope this is what Democrats do next year. If this is the Democratic strategy, congratulations, America. You've already reelected Republican majorities as far as the eye.
WELCH: Yes, because Trump's approval is in the low 30s.
PHILLIP: We've got leave this conversation, guys.
Coming up next for us, Trump fired her and now she is suing. What's the likelihood that Fed Governor Lisa Cook keeps her job?
Plus, the health experts are telling RFK Jr. to go back to high school bio class after his latest medical claims about kids. Why they're calling his theories voodoo stuff, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, a major legal showdown over presidential power. Fed Governor Lisa Cook is now suing Donald Trump in an attempt to keep her job. Cook's lawyers argue that Trump's attempt to remove her is illegal and unprecedented, and that this is all, quote, an order that to effectuate her and prompt her removal and vacate a seat for President Trump to fill and forward his agenda to undermine the independence of the Federal Reserve.
Now, Trump announced this week that he was firing Cook, accusing her of mortgage fraud. He has not been charged -- she has not been charged with any wrongdoing. And today, the White House said that it is well within the legal bounds to oust her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: You had a these mortgage receipts very clearly shown to the president. And he has the cause that he needs to fire this individual. He laid it out in the letter that he provided to her and to the public as well. And so we'll continue to fight this battle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: This is what we were discussing earlier, which is President Trump became this week the only president to ever attempt to fire a Federal Reserve Board governor. He claims he has the power to do it. It's going to be litigated whether he ultimately does. But, again, they are saying out loud that they want to do this so that he can get that extra seat and get those interest rates down, and then on top of that, have not actually charged her or litigated this at all, the actual accusation. So where does this go from here?
MILLS: So, legally, when you talk about he has the ability to oust her for cause. What does cause mean in a legal sense? You have to point to something that she did while she was on duty there that takes away from her duties, and that's not what happened. This alleged legal fraud that she wasn't charged with happened years before she got this position.
I think it's wild if we step aside for a second and say, this president, who has 34 felony convictions for falsifying business records, is saying that someone who was never charged with falsifying those records should be outed for that.
JENNINGS: As a lawyer, do you believe it was a good case?
MILLS: Well, I thought it was a good case. The jury just decided that it was real, and we can't just ignore a jury because that's not how this country works.
JENNINGS: I'm not asking you also you to ignore it. I'm asking you as a lawyer, whether you thought it was real.
MILLS: (INAUDIBLE) that someone wasn't charged or convicted of a crime, that they should be punished for it and it be deemed cause. And that's where we're at. He doesn't have the right to do this because she's not guilty of anything. And until she is, he has no cause.
JENNINGS: Well, is that what cause, do you have to be guilty of something? I mean, what if --
MILLS: There has to be more than somebody in his cabinet saying, we think she did this. That doesn't qualify, for sure.
JENNINGS: Look, isn't this going to be adjudicated in front of the courts.
CUPP: Tomorrow.
JENNINGS: I mean, she's suing, the government's going to make their argument. She's going to make her argument, and eventually it's going to get sorted out. As you pointed out, it's unprecedented. So, a court is ultimately going to have to weigh in here.
PHILLIP: Let me play what Trump said today about -- I mean, like I said, he's been kind of saying the quiet part out loud on this from the beginning, but he's talking about what's going to happen if she is actually ousted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Once we have a majority, housing is going to swing and it's going to be great. People are paying too high on interest rates.
[22:25:00]
We have to get the rates down a little bit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And, fundamentally, that's what her lawyers are arguing. They're saying that he has a pretext for wanting her fired regardless of what the facts are.
WELCH: He wants to cook the books. He wants to control everything. This isn't a limited government guy. This is not a law and order guy. This is a guy who has redecorated the Oval ala Marie Antoinette-style and is building himself a ballroom because he has zero intention of leaving. And the more Americans realize this, the more prepared we can be.
He wants to control the Fed. And what happens when autocrats do this? Inflation spikes, all of our fiscal conservative --
SEAT: But George H.W. Bush put a horseshoe pit in. Did he not intend to leave? When Barack Obama put a basketball court in, did he not intend to leave?
(CROSSTALKS)
WELCH: They didn't stage insurrection prior.
PHILLIP: Listen, I just want to stay focused on this because think this is super important. Let me just play, because this is new sound from just yesterday of Vice President J.D. Vance saying something I don't think I've ever heard, frankly anybody in the White House say about the Fed before. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I don't think that we allow bureaucrats to sit from on high and make decisions about monetary policy and interest rates without any input from the people that were elected to serve the American people. And I think that's fundamentally what this is about. Who makes the decisions about this country? Is it those the American people elect, or is it unelected bureaucrats? And I feel very strongly that the president of the United States is much better able to make these determinations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Pete, the president of the United States, he's arguing, should be controlling monetary policy and interest rates in the United States of America?
SEAT: Well, they see it fundamentally different than most people see it. Yes, the Fed has been independent and that is the historical norm.
PHILLIP: I mean, are we in a world in which like --
SEAT: Well, let me get there. I can answer you.
PHILLIP: -- you know, the president sitting in the White House just to get to print more money when he wants to, when it makes him look good politically, lower interest rates make it easy for people to borrow money, like is that what we're doing here?
SEAT: Okay, well, putting words in my mouth. Didn't say any of that and wasn't pretending to say any of that.
PHILLIP: Those were J.D. Vance's words. Yes.
SEAT: Thank you for clarifying. So, I believe in the independence of the Fed. I also believe in accountability. Lisa Cook claims that these mortgage papers were submitted as part of her confirmation process. That means, we have to assume, that the Biden administration vetted her. So, either they didn't care. That she committed mortgage fraud or they didn't notice that she committed mortgage fraud, and that's a problem.
PHILLIP: You also don't know that she committed mortgage fraud, okay? That is also true.
SEAT: She's not denied it though, has she?
PHILLIP: But in this country, she doesn't have to prove that she didn't do the crime. You have to prove that she did -- if you were a prosecutor, have to prove that she did it, we don't know. It's an allegation.
SEAT: Well, it's likely tomorrow going to come down to whether or not a judge thinks she made a mistake or that she was doing it maliciously.
PHILLIP: Again, I don't want to skirt over the original question that I asked, S.E., because this is super important. I mean, the president is ultimately trying to take over the Fed. He may very well be able to do that. There was a vacancy that occurred unexpectedly over this summer. He's already named somebody to replace that appointee, and now this. He's just said it. He wants to have control over monetary policy in this country. CUPP: The politicization of expertise is the quickest way to ruin a civilization. And whether you're politicizing health and scientists at CDC --
PHILLIP: Which we'll get to that too.
CUPP: Yes. Whether you're politicizing the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the jobs numbers, because you want them to sound better for you, and now politicizing monetary policy, which should be independent of politics for like very obvious reasons, this is the way you ruin an advanced civilization, by corrupting things that should exist outside of politics.
And Trump's desire to make everything a political reflection of him and loyalty to him is leading to the death of expertise in all of these areas that should not be political.
PHILLIP: I know we have to go. I want to play one quick thing. Let me just play Peter Navarro real quick, something that he said that's extraordinary. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR COUNSELOR, TRADE AND MANUFACTURING: I said flat out it, it was a terrible hire. It was a DEI hire. She's not qualified.
She's a partisan animal who weaponized the Federal Reserve.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't want to call Lisa Cook an animal. You didn't mean that?
NAVARRO: A what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An animal.
NAVARRO: I didn't say that. Yes, I didn't mean to say that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you said a partisan animal. I just --
NAVARRO: Oh, a partisan animal, okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to make sure that we understand what you mean.
NAVARRO: I understand. I apologize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Says the man who made up an economist in his book that did not actually exist. But to just -- I mean, it seems to me she's going into court and there's a lot of stuff stacking up that she can point to that suggests that there's a personal animus here and it's less about the facts of the case.
[22:30:03] MILLS: Yes. And I think you made the point earlier in the show, Abby, where you said that just because there's no regulation or something isn't being illegal or criminal, you shouldn't just do it. The President is making these moves -- one, they're supposed to be caused, but he's going outside of that and making these moves for his own personal gain.
And the problem is almost the government didn't anticipate that we would have somebody in the office who wouldn't respect it and have that respect for this nation. The Fed has been operating independently for a really long time and it's been working. Our economy has been stable. It fluctuates.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Debatable.
(CROSSTALK)
MILLS: But if you come in and now make it all about politics, I'm in office, I'm going to push the interest rate up or down for my benefit. As you just said, that's how civilizations fall apart.
PHILLIP: It's not debatable. We have to leave it there. Coming up next, a dramatic shakeup at the CDC. Top officials are escorted out after the director is suddenly fired. And now, a Kennedy pick is going to take over. We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:37]
PHILLIP: CDC staff gathered today to honor top officials who resigned from their positions after the abrupt ouster of the agency's director, Dr. Susan Monarez. Attorneys for the now former director say that she refused to rubber stamp vaccine recommendations that flew in the face of science and listened to R.F.K. Jr.'s hand-picked panel of advisors. But if it wasn't immediately apparent why she was fired. Well, Karoline Leavitt, the press secretary, made that abundantly clear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, what I will say about this individual is that her lawyer's statement made it abundantly clear themselves that she was not aligned with the President's mission to make America healthy again. And the Secretary asked her to resign. She said she would, and then she said she wouldn't. So, the President fired her, which he has every right to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Kennedy Deputy Jim O'Neill is expected to step in as acting director of the CDC. Joining us now at the table in our fifth seat is Dr. Chris Pernell. She is a public health and preventative medicine physician and director of the NAACP Center for Health Equity.
Dr. Pernell, we were talking earlier this in the show about, you know, there were a lot of alarms about what would happen if, you know, Trump did this, what would happen if Trump did that. One of the big things was this appointment of R.F.K. Jr. How do you feel today? I mean, is this your worst case scenario?
CHRIS T. PERNELL, DIRECTOR, NAACP CENTER FOR HEALTH EQUITY: Exactly. We, in the NAACP and personally myself as a public health and preventive medicine physician, I fought tooth and nail for Secretary Kennedy to not be named Secretary. We knew the potential abuses of having someone who was a two decades-long vaccine skeptic, someone who was reckless about the use of science in charge of one of the largest government agencies with oversight over the CDC. And everything that we feared, unfortunately, has been enacted.
Look, there's a bloodbath at the CDC. We in public health feel like we are undermined consistently, and now, we don't even have a credible agency or reputable infrastructure by which to safeguard Americans to protect the most vulnerable and the most marginalized. And data itself is not Republican or Democrat. Science is politicized, and we are living in a time where the political determinants of health are proving wrong people are in-charge. It's deadly.
PHILLIP: As I was saying, I mean, you were saying something in the last segment about this very thing. I mean, when everything in the government is infected by politics, where can people turn for, to feel like, you know what, no matter who's in office, I can trust this. No matter who's in office, this is reliable. I mean, are we moving away from that as a country?
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. And that's why I said this is the quickest way to ruin an advanced civilization by politicizing and corrupting expertise. You know, I have a personal invested stake in what happens at HHS. I'm the mother of an autistic son. And the way RFK Jr. has talked about autism is ruining --
UNKNOWN: Exactly.
CUPP: -- ruining people's lives.
UNKNOWN: Exactly.
CUPP: It is endangering people because of the way he talks about autism, the way he's promising a cure that doesn't exist, the way he's blaming vaccines is going to get people killed. And it's also really gross and dirty and quackery. But I'm just mad that those health officials resigned. I get why they did.
UNKNOWN: Oh, yes.
CUPP: But all those vacancies are going to be filled by more quacks and TV doctors who want to perform for Trump.
PHILLIP: It's an important point because, you know, the decision, that they -- they talked about the decision to do it and it's always a challenge when people decide to do that because, yeah, you leave a vacancy that someone else is going to fill. I want to play for what one of those officials said tonight speaking to Kaitlan Collins in the last hour about what he saw was happening at the agency that he just left, the CDC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL CENTER FOR IMMUNIZATION AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES AT CDC: The people that had been installed by Secretary Kennedy are full of ideology and bias that will actually contaminate the science. So, I think that we have evidence that this is coming. And I think that the other part that we're seeing is that decisions are being made and data is being retrofitted to be able to address the decision.
[22:40:00]
I think that that is really a clear sign that the direction that the country's public health is going is not one that is evidence-based or science-based, which is why our resignations really, together, are trying to raise a red flag for everyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: R.F.K. Jr. came in knowing what he wanted the science to say.
UNKNOWN: Exactly.
PHILLIP: And it sounds like from that official, what is happening is that he is making pronouncements and then finding things to back it up. I mean, this is stuff that affects real people's lives. Vaccines, you know --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: We're in national immunization this month --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, immunizations.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: The criticisms from this person, I just -- I just have to say he did use the term pregnant people in his resume.
PERNELL: Oh, come on, come on. That's a ruse.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I'm sorry, if that is like the way you're -- if that is like the way you're presenting information --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: That's a ruse.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I have questions about your credibility.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Is that -- Scott -- it's like, it's so amazing --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: It's not a ruse. He really wrote it down.
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: It's a ruse because people have --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We are talking -- we are talking about --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: This guy's not credible to me. That's all I'm telling you.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Scott, are you serious?
PERNELL: Come on.
JENNINGS: That he is not credible --
PHILLIP: No, no. Are you serious that this is -- that of all the things that we're talking about here -- immunizations, vaccines, autism --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- research about -- on communicable diseases, on cancer, and you are the most concerned about someone's use of the word people.
JENNINGS: Yeah, because --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That's the most important thing to you?
JENNINGS: -- because you were just complaining about the politicization of science --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: That's not politicization. That's not --
(CROSSTALK) JENNINGS: -- and I can't think of -- I can't think of politicization of science more than that.
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: That's not politicization. Come on, Scott.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Or what some of these people said to the American people during COVID.
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: Come on.
JENNINGS: The credibility of some of these folks who are complaining -- look.
PHILLIP: Okay so --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: Well, well, I'm complaining and I'm public health and preventive medicine physician. We, in the NAACP are complaining, right? And we are an iconic civil rights and human rights organization. There is reason to complain, Scott. You have a person who during his confirmation hearings said that black people had a different immune system, that we should follow a different immunization schedule.
You have a person who has spent his life undermining science -- credible science. The people who walked out of the CDC, the people who resigned, these are not flippant folks. These are not people who did this on the slight of a turn.
These are people who dedicated their livelihoods, who dedicated their hearts and their expertise to safeguarding the health of all Americans. And now, we are compromised, not just from a health and well-being standpoint, but from a national security standpoint. What's going to happen with the next outbreak, a pandemic --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, let me -- let, just real quick play this because Scott seems to think that R.F.K. Jr., who says things like this, is more credible than people --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I didn't say that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- who have degrees --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I literally didn't say that.
PHILLIP: -- in the subject. But watch --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I didn't say that. Why did you say things I didn't say? Why are you saying I said that?
PHILLIP: -- but watch this clip.
JENNINGS: I didn't say that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: When I was a kid and I know what a healthy child is supposed to look like. I'm looking at kids as I walk through the airports today, as I walk down the street, and I see these kids that are just overburdened with mitochondrial challenges, with inflammation. You can tell from their faces, from their body movements, and from their lack of social connection. And I know that that's not how our children are supposed to look.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERNELL: Science. Hashtag science.
PHILLIP: This is why Ajit Shah said that this is wacky flat earth voodoo stuff. Peter Hotez -- please send a few introductory biology textbooks --
PERNELL: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- to the Department of HHS. I mean, look. The reason, Scott, I said what I said, is because rather than you seriously answering a question about the real concerns that were raised by these officials about the bending of science to the will of that guy, you decided that the most important thing to you was their lack of credibility because they used the word people? I mean, I just think -- I understand the rhetoric and the political points. But I'm --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: You realize that you're accepting some politicization of science but not others, right?
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: What's the politicization of science that's been accepted?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What is the -- what is the politicization of science?
JENNINGS: Can men get pregnant or not?
PHILLIP: Scott --
PERNELL: Scott, we're talking about -- we're talking about --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: If you're in the CDC and you believe that, I'm saying --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: -- we're talking about --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: -- you're not a very credible person.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Listen --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: The CDC --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: -- that is responsible for --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Scott, Scott --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: -- the health and well-being of the nation.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation we are having.
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: Nothing --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: It does because --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: It does not.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: -- it's questionable whether your scientists --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation that we are having.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: -- are going to politicize or not and you accept some and not others.
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: That's just a study.
JENNINGS: I disagree.
PERNELL: It's hard on this segment --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: It's a credibility issue.
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: Why do we do that when people have died and are dying? Why would we do that when people's children are being dehumanized --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, look. It's so -- it's hard to have a conversation in this country about real things when everything just becomes about buzzwords --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: Or political --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And I just have to say, like --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I don't understand why you're rejecting this criticism of someone's credibility.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I, yeah, because I think that what matters to people in their homes --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- is whether or not they know what immunizations their child should have, which by the way, immunizations have saved so many lives.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I'm not disagreeing with you about that. I agree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What matters to them around the world is not what words are being used by people --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Oh, I think it does matter because it tells me what kind of person he is.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- but it is whether or not they can trust that the guy who's making decisions about their health actually knows what a mitochondria is.
[22:45:05]
PERNELL: Yes. And when we focus on, you know, imbecilic things such as that, that's why people are then subject to misinformation and disinformation, and they resort to violence, Scott. There was just a --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Violence?
PERNELL: It' not -- violence. This is not a laughing matter.
PHILLIP: There was a shooting at the CDC.
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: There was a shooting at the CDC. A police officer is dead. There are people rejecting the fact that people are being kidnapped on the street.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: There's attacks on ICE agents every day. Who's responsible for that? You seem to reject the idea that violence is being incited before. Now, you're blaming this for violence? You just cherry pick these things like --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: You're the biggest cherry picker on television. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Scott --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Scott, there is nobody who is justifying attacks against ICE officials. There -- and nobody should justify or diminish somebody shooting hundreds of bullets --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I'm not. It's terrible.
PHILLIP: -- into a workplace where people are doing --
(CROSSTALK)
PERNELL: Where people are trying to save lives. Where people are practicing public health.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I don't understand why that would even be a comparison that you would make honestly.
CUPP: It's a great way to not answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You guys --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: What questions?
(CROSSTALK)
CUPP: Hundreds of thousands of doctors --
JENNINGS: What questions?
CUPP: Hundreds of thousands of doctors who probably don't use words that you don't like who agree on the science. The science is settled when it comes to autism and vaccines. They have nothing to do with each other.
PERNELL: Definitely.
CUPP: Less than one percent of scientists suggest that there might be a link.
JENININGS: You seem to be very angry with me. I fundamentally agree with you.
CUPP: No.
PHILLIP: All right.
CUPP: No, but why do we have to get derailed by this political BS when you could just say, yeah, that's garbage and we shouldn't politicize science and CDC.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Because some scientists are allowed to politicize things and some aren't.
PERNELL: No. No. That's not true.
JENNINGS: And it depends on your politics and that's how -- (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That is very much not true.
PERNELL: That's not true. Thank you for saying that.
PHILLIP: Here we are. I appreciate the discussion here and Dr. Chris Pernell, I appreciate you being here. Everyone else stand by. Next for us, reversing course, the Air Force now says that a January 6th rioter, Ashley Babbitt, will receive a military funeral honors. What's behind the move and why it's sparking backlash?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:51:35]
PHILLIP: The U.S. Air Force will offer military funeral honors to Ashley Babbitt, the Air Force veteran and MAGA rioter who was shot and killed by police after she breached the Capitol on January 6th. The honors had been previously denied under President Biden. And in May, the Trump administration agreed to pay the family nearly $5 million in a wrongful death settlement.
Attorney Donte Mills is back with us. I don't know Donte, I mean what do you think? Maybe this is a natural progression but it certainly seems like a choice on the part of the administration.
MILLS: Well, I think you just go speak on the law. It's called abatement ab initio, is Latin for from the beginning. So, she was in the middle of her appeal when she received the pardon. That means her case essentially started over and she's no longer guilty. So, she's no longer guilty. She has the pardon, then she served in the Air Force. She was deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq. She's entitled to the benefits she would be entitled to.
I can't sit here as a lawyer and say that her conviction was wiped away, but she should still be penalized as if it wasn't.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: And just to clarify, I mean, she was killed in an act, right?
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: I do agree with you 100 percent.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Like --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Climbing into a broken window at the Capitol to overthrow the government.
(CROSSTALK)
MILLS: But I can't insert my opinion over the law.
JENNINGS: Can I ask a military question? Can the -- because her case is essentially wiped away. can the Air Force just decide not to do it as a policy matter or is she entitled to it no matter what now?
MILLS: Well, you have to show -- they have to show why she wouldn't be entitled to it. Naturally, she is entitled to it. Now, there is no conviction there.
JENNINGS: So, there would be no reason to deny it.
MILLS: There will be no reason to deny it.
JENNINGS: Got it.
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, I think it's pretty clear why she should be denied it.
CUPP: Well, yeah, this is the trick. Trump --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, in many people's view as we've been talking about if you --
CUPP: Yeah.
PHILLIP: -- break the law and you do things that law -- in this case it was a law enforcement officer --
CUPP: Yeah.
PHILLIP: -- who's trying to protect members of Congress --
CUPP: Yeah.
PHILLIP: -- used his firearm in this situation against her because she was doing something that was perceived to be, and that actually was a danger to those members inside.
CUPP: It was. Trump convinced a lot of -- a lot of people to abandon a lot of things. He convinced conservatives to abandon conservatism, law and order Republicans to abandon law and order, and patriots to abandon patriotism. When you're ramming an American flag at a police officer in an attempt to overthrow the government, that's not patriotism. And I don't frankly care that she served. So did David Berkowitz. So did Jeffrey Dahmer.
(CROSSTALK)
CUPP: So did Benedict Arnold. Like --
(CROSSTALK)
MILLS: -- convicted of things. We got to stick with the law. We can't deviate from the law.
(CROSSTALK)
CUPP: I understand that part of it. But I think it's gross.
(CROSSTALK)
MILLS: I think if you can live with the five million they gave the family, that was discretionary and they shouldn't have done that.
(CROSSTALK)
CUPP: Yeah, I think it's gross. Disgusting.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: January 6th officer staff sergeant Aquilino Gonell says, "Betrayed by MAGA again -- you have desecrated and made a mockery of service and sacrifice that we did on that day by downplaying what happened, the pardons, the restitutions, the settlement, and now this shit (ph)." I mean, this is an officer who was injured seriously in this attack.
PETE SEAT, FORMER WH SPOKESPERSON, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: And I understand and sympathize with the very strong feelings about this. I understand if it is procedurally what should be done and I can respect that.
But this is not something that I personally wish to condone. Her actions on January 6th are inexcusable, and I commend her for her service. But I don't think she should be honored in this way by the administration. And I think it's an unforced error. But if they're forced to do it --
CUPP: Yeah.
SEAT: -- I think that's --
(CROSSTALK) MILLS: One challenge was the pardon. She shouldn't have been pardoned.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean --
MILLS: But once she is, she gets the benefit.
PHILLIP: The core problem is the pardon, right?
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
PHILLIP: It's the same reason that a judge had to authorize a refund of restitution from a January 6th rioter.
[22:55:04]
In other case, the law -- he doesn't have a choice here, but the problem is the pardon.
JENNIFER WELCH, "I'VE HAD IT" PODCAST CO-HOST: I think that the biggest failure of Joe Biden's administration is going to be his Justice Department not dealing with the insurrection. And the fact that Trump was able to run again is going to be the end of our democracy. I just, I think, I see the curtains closing and this whole thing is sad. How all of his supporters were radicalized to do that, her getting killed is sad, the insurrection is sad. It's really, really tragic.
PHILLIP: We have to leave it there. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts next.
