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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Florida Becomes First State to End School Vaccine Mandates; Doctors Fear Red States May Copy Florida and End School Mandates; Judge Says, Trump Illegally Canceled Harvard's Funding. Epstein Victims Come Together and Speak Out; Sources Say Mayor Adams is Offered a New Job Ahead of November Election; American Eagle Stocks Surge 25 Percent. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 03, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, Florida becomes the first to end vaccine mandates in schools, comparing them to America's original sin.
DR. JOSEPH LADAPO, FLORIDA SURGEON GENERAL: Every last one of them is wrong and drips with disdain and slavery.
PHILLIP: Plus, Harvard refuses to bend the knee and wins. So, does it pay off to push back?
Also --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not a hoax. We are real human beings.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: This is a Democrat hoax that never ends.
PHILLIP: -- Epstein's survivors hit Washington to bear witness and unlock answers, but the White House is warning Republicans don't deliver the keys.
And quid pro quo, the administration considers giving Eric Adams a job to clear the field in Gotham to stop a socialist.
ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Andrew Cuomo is Donald Trump's choice to be the next mayor of this city.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Nina Turner, Ben Ferguson, Christine Quinn and Dan Abrams.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, make America sick again? Well, tonight, Florida is planning to ax all vaccine mandates, including the ones for school children. And the state surgeon general used this metaphor to justify it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LADAPO: The Florida Department of Health in partnership with the governor is going to be working to end all vaccine mandates in Florida law, all of them, all of them.
Every last one of them, every last one of them is wrong and drips with disdain and slavery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: In all 50 states, they have had school immunization requirements since the 80s. Now, this change would make Florida the first state to end the longstanding and constitutionally upheld practice of requiring certain vaccines for students.
The Florida chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics said today, the move will put children in the state's public schools at higher risk for getting sick, which will have a ripple effect in the community. The CDC study also shows that routine childhood vaccines, like the ones included in school mandates, will have prevented millions of illnesses, hospitalizations, deaths, all while saving billions in direct access costs.
Joining the conversation for this one is Dr. Chris Pernell. She's the director of the NAACP Center for Health Equity and Public Health and Preventative Medicine physician.
And, Dr. Pernell, you know this well. In 2020, we had 13 cases of measles, 2025, 1,400, a huge increase in whooping cough in this country. And at the same time, the rates of vaccine exemptions have gone up by about a point since 2019. None of this is by accident. None of this is by osmosis. And now this in Florida.
DR. CHRIS T. PERNELL, DIRECTOR, NAACP CENTER FOR HEALTH EQUITY: Reckless, if I could sum it up in one word, let's just go to some facts and I have them here to keep myself honest.
Since the last 30 years, we've saved over 150 million lives because of vaccines globally. If we begin to think about in the United States, we've saved over 1.1 million children due to vaccinations since 1994. We've prevented 508 million illnesses and 32 million hospitalizations. That's not anything to wink at. That's hardcore data.
But what's happening in the United States is as if we are a runaway train. In public health, we talk about the cliff of good health and we have fallen completely off of the cliff completely.
PHILLIP: That's kind of what it feels like in, in a way, Ben, that everybody sitting at this table, all the folks in Florida, all of these people who are vaccine skeptics now have benefited from vaccines, allowing them to live their lives without polio, without measles, and now all of a sudden they want to pull the rug out from underneath children. I'm surprised by it.
I mean, you have kids, a lot of us do at this table. It's, if you lived in Florida what would you think?
BEN FERGUSON, HOST, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: I think two things, one, they're not outlawed.
[22:05:01]
That's good. The parents are going to decide. Two, there's a cause and effect. And the CDC lied to us about COVID, and they lied a lot. They lied about masks in schools. Not true. They lied about distancing. They lied about the efficiency or the effectiveness of the COVID-19 vaccine.
PERNELL: Not true.
FERGUSON: It is true. They said that distancing -- wait. Did they not lie about the effectiveness of a mask when the internal document said --
PERNELL: Yes, if you talk about certain types of masks. If we're looking at high quality masks, if we're looking at high quality masks, right, so P-95 masks, those masks actually prevent infections. Because, look, this is the way science works. Science works that as you get data, the type of communication that you give will improve. You can't say the CDC lied.
PHILLIP: Hold on. I actually think it's --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: If you're saying things that are not accurate, I do think it's fair for her to counter that.
FERGUSON: The CDC said that masking was effective and worked when they new internal documents said it does, and emails came out that it didn't work.
PHILLIP: Okay. Well, what --
FERGUSON: Six-foot distancing, first of all, the CDC say --
PERNELL: misinformation folks, you're seeing it in action.
PHILLIP: First of all --
FERGUSON: They said it was going to stop spread infection.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Are you going to have a conversation or are you just going to keep talking? Hold on. Okay. First of all, what she is disputing is your language around this, which is that they lied --
PERNELL: Yes, exactly.
PHILLIP: -- which she's saying, and I think she's right about this, is not true. There are certain types of masks that work better than others, A --
PERNELL: We've been using masks for decades.
PHILLIP: The whole point of science, I mean, and this is -- I think this is --
FERGUSON: Abby, this is why Florida did this is, what you guys don't understand. There's a cause and effect. American people don't trust the CDC for the reasons I said. You may not like that. You may not like the Americans who don't believe that.
PHILLIP: Americans don't trust the CDC people like RFK Jr. and others --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Okay, Ben, just give me one second, okay? This Florida surgeon general has been railing against vaccines for a while, but he's also responsible for a lot of misinformation. He's altered key findings in a COVID-19 vaccine safety study.
PERNELL: Malpractice.
PHILLIP: He pushed things like cures like Ivermectin and others for COVID.
FERGUSON: We have Ivermectin not work?
PERNELL: No.
FERGUSON: And we have data that shows that it did work.
PERNELL: No.
PHILLIP: He is pushing all of those other --
PERNELL: We have data that it does not work effectively.
PHILLIP: Okay, Ben, are you really going to argue with the doctor?
PERNELL: Thank you. Would a doctor who was helping to save lives --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Let me move because -- hold on one second. I just want to move on because I want to let other people join the conversation, okay? The idea that all of this can be blamed on a virus that was novel in 2020, where we did not know a whole lot, and where -- I just want to play this because I think people forget sometimes where the president at the time was Donald J. Trump, and this is what he said about vaccines at the time, his own vaccine, by the way, that he helped develop.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: You tell parents about getting their kids vaccinated?
REPORTER: Measles, on the measles.
TRUMP: They have to get the shot. The vaccinations are so important. This is really going around now they have to get their shots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, on measles Trump in 2019 was get your measles vaccine. Operation Warp Speed, some people say he should be nominated for the Noble Peace Prize, fair argument to make. But now, all of a sudden, this is about being lied to when people did not know a whole lot about COVID at the time.
DAN ABRAMS, FOUNDER, MEDIAITE YOUTUBE: Let's take a big picture view this the COVID vaccine ended up being a miracle drug. There is no doubt about that. You can say that certain people later on in terms of booster shots should or shouldn't have gotten to this, young men, and you can make all those. The bottom line is it was a miracle drug, period. We have to start from that perspective.
Then you talk about other vaccines, right? We're not just talking about COVID. If COVID is an excuse to basically say, well, this is -- we can't listen to anything, they're all lying to us, all these vaccines are bad. No, they're not. They've been proven year after year, decade after decade, putting aside COVID for a minute, that the rest of these vaccines work.
So, the fundamental question becomes, do you view this through the prism of I or do you view this through the prism of we? If you view it through the prism of, I, I understand the point, which is why should I be forced to get something that I may not want to get? I get it.
FERGUSON: That had side effects, like heart issues.
ABRAMS: No. But, look, there are medical exceptions. But there are medical exceptions in Florida where if you have a medical condition right now, you don't have to get those vaccines if you have a medical exception. The point is if you view it as a we, as a community --
FERGUSON: We did that effort.
[22:10:00]
It was a failure.
(CROSSTALKS)
ABRAMS: Measles has been a failure.
FERGUSON: No. I'm going back to COVID-19 and why we're having this conversation. PHILLIP: I know that it's convenient to go back to COVID, but we are talking --
FERGUSON: That's where the story is. The CDC, we have trusted them before COVID-19.
PHILLIP: Right now in this -- hold on, Ben. Right now in this country, Scott, the question is, should children going back to school, you also have kids, I don't know if they're vaccinated or not, I presume they probably are, if they are going back to school, should they have a vaccine for polio? Should they have a vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella? Should they have a vaccine for any number of things for chickenpox that we don't even talk about anymore because it's not really a part of American life because we've eradicated it because of vaccines? Should they?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I think it's indisputable that vaccines have saved millions upon millions of lives and that these vaccines for these diseases you're talking about work. I mean, they've been working for decades in many cases. I think that's fact, number one.
I think Dan raised an interesting point about you could hold two thoughts at the same time. You could believe that they work and believe that, you know, you don't have any questions about it. And you may also believe that the government shouldn't make you do anything that you don't want to do regarding healthcare. Whether you have concerns about the vaccines or not, you know, there are people who do not believe that the government should be able to mandate --
PERNELL: The government makes you wear a seatbelt.
JENNINGS: -- anything like that. Well, there are people that don't think that, they don't make you drive.
FERGUSON: They don't make you drive.
JENNINGS: And so --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I think it's possible for people to hold. So, anyway, that's kind of the debate that's going on, personal liberty.
PHILLIP: That is the debate, but I think Dan's point is, and I think this is super important when he comes to vaccines, vaccines are not just an eye decision. They are we decision, because they don't work as well, unless and until we all participate in this. So, that is part of what is the discussion here when it comes to mandates, because we are all protected when we are, as a community, vaccinated. We are less protected when we are not vaccinated as a community.
STATE SEN. NINA TURNER (D-OH): The two things that are really troubling in this whole debate is the fact that we do have to collectively make a certain level of sacrifice and getting vaccinations are part of that sacrifice with a glorious outcome for the majority, with a few exceptions. And to see the president, the leaders in Florida play political games of vaccinations, to see people cheer this on, not really understanding the full impact of what this is going to do for political expediency.
And the second point, very irrational, irresponsible for him to compare people having to get vaccinations with chattel slavery. There are no other atrocities. They would never make that comparison when it comes to the Holocaust, but you want to make that comparison when it comes to chattel slavery. It is reprehensible that he would do that or anybody would do that, that cavalier nature. And all that it continues to do is amp up the animus in this country for reasons that --
PERNELL: Can we say about Florida specifically, just for a minute?
PHILLIP: Yes.
PERNELL: So, in Florida, approximately 88 percent of kindergartners have their full and complete vaccination. That is already below the recommended amount if you're going to achieve herd immunity. If you take away the vaccine mandates, you're going to see that number plummet. When that number plummets, not only are households going to be infected and potentially get sick, but the most vulnerable people in those households, and those are children. Without mandates, we are not going to adequately protect our children. And we've already seen --
FERGUSON: If you bully the American public --
PERNELL: No, let me finish. That's not bullying. We've already seen evidence is when we don't protect children, children are left susceptible to irrational decisions of adults. We have children in the United States dead from measles. That should not happen in 2025. It should not.
PHILLIP: Seriously, how do you, with a straight face, can anyone justify, even if you don't like the COVID vaccine, saying that because you don't like the COVID vaccine, you should open up the Pandora's Box of diseases that we have put on the backburner of public life? So, why would that, why would one thing even remotely justify the other?
FERGUSON: When you have the CDC that does not have the trust of the American people, and, clearly, in Florida they do not trust the CDC with their children --
PHILLIP: This has nothing to do with the CDC. This has to Florida public health --
FERGUSON: You can lecture the American people all you want to, but I'm trying to explain to you why parents are saying, I don't trust --
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: I know that you are trying to justify it, but I'm --
FERGUSON: It's not justifying. It is explaining why --
PHILLIP: This is actually not about --
FERGUSON: And, by the way, if you don't like the sport, you can move.
PHILLIP: This is not about the parents at this point.
FERGUSON: Sure it is.
PHILLIP: This is about the policy.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Ben, this is about the policymakers. This is about the governor. It's about the surgeon general.
FERGUSON: So, why are they so popular?
PHILLIP: Why are they willing to sacrifice the health of millions of children because they don't like the COVID-19 vaccine?
FERGUSON: You guys won't even admit that we got it wrong with COVID at this table.
JENNINGS: Are you so sure that the parents still don't get their children vaccinated?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
JENNINGS: I think you're raising an interesting question about the numbers. You said millions of children. Are you so sure that parents won't get their children vaccinated without a --
FERGUSON: They want the choice.
JENNINGS: I mean, the mandate -- I mean, they can still get them vaccinated.
PHILLIP: She already addressed that.
PERNELL: Yes, not enough.
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: But if you want to blame somebody for this, blame the CDC for losing the trust of the American people.
PERNELL: Okay. You're wrong again, okay?
FERGUSON: No, I'm not. We're having this conversation because the American people don't trust the CDC.
PERNELL: Let's talk political actors who started to spew intentionally misinformation and disinformation, which has led to confusion, has led to chaos and has led to an unnecessary loss of life. Do you know why we were able to save the lives that we did? Because public health physicians, CDC --
FERGUSON: Be angry with the scientists that lied to the American people.
PERNELL: That's what's dangerous, be angry with the scientists. Yes, why?
FERGUSON: We're having a conversation.
TURNER: What I'm saying is that if we just kind of think through this, I mean, I think we all pretty much agreed that the vaccines --
FERGUSON: This conversation would never be happening --
TURNER: But I'm saying --
FERGUSON: -- if it wasn't for the lies of COVID-19.
TURNER: Okay. But there's a way to talk people through the differences of what happened during the COVID pandemic and the global impact. Well, we got our --
FERGUSON: I'll be honest with you. Arrogance, is not going to get parents to come to your side.
PERNELL: It's not about the arrogance. You are yelling about --
PHILLIP: We have to end the conversation here, but you do sound a little bit like a broken record on this one.
PERNELL: Yes.
FERGUSON: It's because it's that simple, it's the same thing over and over again. You lose the trust of people on any issue, they will not listen to you.
PHILLIP: You're diagnosing the problem, but you're not offering a solution. The solution --
FERGUSON: Don't lie to parents.
PHILLIP: The solution to this is not take away the vaccine mandates. The solution is to reassure parents about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, which are really not in question. But rather than doing that, policymakers are not doing that. And I think that is -- nobody is disputing that. They are not doing that and you know the facts around it.
FERGUSON: I can agree with you. And here's what I would say. If doctors are this upset about it, then actually speak --
PERNELL: We are. A lot of people are.
FERGUSON: -- without condemning parents implying that they're going to kill their child or that they're ignorant --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: Did the surgeon general cast aspersions on the safety of the vaccines today?
PERNELL: He has.
JENNINGS: But, I mean, today, because what I read was that the mandate will go away, but the vaccines were fully available.
PHILLIP: Just to be clear, he has repeatedly passed out on the safety of vaccines, not just today, but for a long time.
JENNINGS: But they didn't outlaw any vaccines, right?
PHILLIP: He doesn't have the power to outlaw anything. But he said that the intention is to remove all the mandates.
PERNELL: You already just have to have a seat (ph).
PHILLIP: We've got to leave it there. Dr. Chris Pernell, we appreciate you very much for joining us.
Next, more breaking news, a judge has ruled that Trump canceling Harvard's funds is illegal. So, does that mean that there will be more people who start to fight back?
Plus, the White House is warning that it'll be considered a hostile act if any Republican votes to release the Epstein files, this as survivors are on Capitol Hill demanding answers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, it's Harvard two, Trump zero. A federal judge finding the administration broke the law by freezing billions of dollars in research funding at the school in the name of fighting anti-Semitism. Now, it's the same judge who blocked Trump's ban on international students at the school in June, and she writes, quote, we must fight against anti-Semitism, but we equally need to protect our rights, including our right to free speech. And neither goal should nor needs to be sacrificed on the altar of the other. The White House says it'll immediately appeal this decision.
Christine Quinn joins us at the table now. And, Dan, I'm curious what do you think about this ruling and where it heads now?
ABRAMS: Well, look, I think as a legal matter. The judge is probably right, and we've talked about this before actually on this show, that the link of the funding on medical funding to anti-Semitism made no sense, right? I mean, come on, let's be honest, of course. The funding being withheld wasn't about anti-Semitism.
Their argument in court is, well, anti-Semitism is a legitimate goal to try to fix. And, by the way, they may be right about anti-Semitism at Harvard, right, and Columbia and a lot of these other Ivy League schools. You can believe that, as I do, that there was a real anti- Semitism, a problem going on for a while at these schools and also believe that withholding the funding had nothing to do with that.
And so that's what the judge here is saying, is that there was no nexus between those two. But there's going to be an appeal on this. I mean, look, this is just round one here, right? I don't think sort of drawing broad conclusions about sort of what's going to happen now from this particular ruling, you know, and the Trump administration is, as you know, really believes it's not over until the Supreme Court weighs in.
PHILLIP: On any subject, frankly. But, I mean, for the schools that did settle with the administration before ever even attempting to litigate, Columbia University, $221 million, Brown University, $50 million, University of Pennsylvania made some changes.
[22:25:10]
There are other schools that have not settled with Trump, but have had their money frozen. It does seem to indicate that there is some benefit potentially to just fighting seeing where the chips fall.
CHRISTINE QUINN, EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE CHAIR, NEW YORK STATE DEMOCRATIC COMMITTEE: Absolutely. I mean, I think there's benefit in a couple of different levels. One, it's just the correct thing to do. If you are an institution of higher learning to stand up and say you're not going to be controlled by the federal government, that the First Amendment means something.
Beyond that, there's every, you know, reason to believe that if you settle, the amount you're going to have to pay is going to be very significant and it's going to be much harder, I think, to get your alumni network and other donors to rally once you've settled versus if you're fighting the good fight on behalf of the First Amendment and academic freedom.
And it's interesting, further on in the judge's decision, she references that there could be, we don't know, many Jewish people who have been fired because of the potential cuts in funding that research into conditions that affect the Jewish community more than others may be --
ABRAMS: Because, you know, everyone needs a good Jewish doctor, right?
QUINN: And that research may be hampered and that this may, that withholding the funds could have a more negative impact on the Jewish communities (ph).
PHILLIP: So, let me read what the judge said. Make no mistake, Harvard rejects anti-Semitism and discrimination in all of its form -- or, excuse me, this is what the Harvard statement says. Harvard rejects anti-Semitism and discrimination in all its forms, actively making structural reforms to eradicate anti-Semitism on campus. But rather than engage with Harvard regarding those ongoing efforts, the government announced a sweeping freeze of funding for medical, scientific, technological, and other research that had nothing at all to do with anti-Semitism.
And it does raise the question of did the administration really try in good faith to work with Harvard to rectify the problem, to resolve the anti-Semitism problem, or was the goal to try to get other money, first of all, money being the main goal, because Trump has said he wants a certain dollar amount?
JENNINGS: Well, I mean, they obviously worked with other colleges to get concessions on making changes on campus that had obviously -- on other campuses that had obviously made serious mistakes. My view is there'll be an appeal. I don't know where the legal case is going to shake out.
I think this has been really embarrassing for Harvard. I mean, now you have a federal judge saying anti-Semitism is intolerable. It is clear, even based solely on Harvard's own admission, that Harvard has been plagued by anti-Semitism, could have done a better job dealing with the issue. I mean, it is now widely known throughout our entire society that our nation's flagship university, perhaps formerly, was plagued by anti-Semitism, and this administration was willing to call it out and fight it out. It's a fight worth having.
PHILLIP: As you just read, Harvard acknowledged that in a very lengthy report that it created itself.
JENNINGS: But they would never have done it if it hadn't been for --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: They would never admit had been for Trump.
PHILLIP: That's not true. To what you just read -- exactly. Chronologically, factually, that's not true. What you just read indicated that, yes, it is embarrassing to Harvard, but Harvard themselves acknowledged it, created an entire report to try to figure out what to do about it. And the question again for the Trump administration is, are they really serious on the anti-Semitism piece? And if they were would they not be serious about wanting to fix the problem rather than get a dollar amount out of Harvard?
FERGUSON: It's amazing to me that like we're cheerleading for Harvard, standing up to the Trump administration, but we're not saying that they should have done that to anti-Semitism when it was rampant on their campuses to the point where Jewish students had to sue the university. So, it's like let's just, we're going to stand up to Donald Trump, we're going to, we're going to fight. By the way, I'm going to make a prediction. Donald Trump's going to win this one. It's going to be a win for him. It will be appealed. He will win.
But, again, you go back to Harvard's sin. The sin was they created a university and an atmosphere where Jewish students did not feel safe to the point where they had to sue. Now, we have a judge saying that this is a place that was not safe for Jewish students, and people are like, well, at least Harvard stand up to Trump. That's insanity.
QUINN: No one is saying that anti-Semitism is okay. And Harvard itself has --
FERGUSON: But we're overlooking it because we're standing up to Trump.
QUINN: Absolutely not. Absolutely, the judge herself has said --
FERGUSON: You said to me a second ago, I'm glad they're standing up to Trump.
QUINN: I am glad they are.
FERGSON: Why not, I'm glad that they're -- that Harvard has been reprimanded because they --
QUINN: I'm also glad that Harvard -- I'm also glad that there is a plan for, propagated by Harvard --
(CROSSTALKS)
QUINN: I was asked a question and I answered it.
PHILLIP: Often at this table, a failure to hold multiple ideas in our minds at the same time is the reason that we end up in these back and forths.
[22:30:08]
But it is possible to say Harvard was wrong. And also, as the judge has said, you cannot try to rectify that by stopping on other rights.
(CROSSTALK)
DAN ABRAMS, FOUNDER, MEDIAITE YOUTUBE: But the problem is, what happens when those -- what we have once in -- one quick point. So, so they made deals, right? What happens when there's another anti-Semitic incident now in one of those campuses?
BEN FERGUSON, "THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW" HOST: Then actually deal with it. Brush it under the rug like Harvard did.
ABRAMS: No, no, but, you know what else is going to happen is going to be another threat.
CHRISTINE QUINN (D) FORMER SPEAKER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: Right.
ABRAMS: It-- you're going down a dangerous road with these deals.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- control, where you don't allow for anti-Semitism to flourish --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: I agree, but you're making --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- then you don't have to worry about that.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: You're making the point that, oh, these -- each school was smart to make the deal.
FERGUSON: Yeah.
ABRAMS: And as a practical matter, in a short term they were. But long term? I don't know. Because they can't control leadership.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, I got to let Lena have a word here. Go ahead, Lena.
(CROSSTALK)
NINA TURNER (D) FORMER OHIO STATE SENATOR: No, I mean, I just, I mean, Abby, your point is well-taken. More than one thing can be true at the same time, and we just got to accept that.
QUINN: Right.
TURNER: And the judge made a ruling. So, legally, the Trump administration will get a chance to appeal, and I agree with Dan as it goes up the chain. We will see what happens but to a hammer, everything is a nail. And so, I do not necessarily believe that the President, through his actions on this issue, really tried to work this out without penalty first. He went in to penalize first instead of saying let's take care of this and get this right.
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: I'm glad that Harvard admitted it, working to rectify -- discrimination, racism, bigotry of any form should not be tolerated on any campus.
UNKNOWN: Amen.
TURNER: Complaining the medical research and the money, two different things. And the judge has spoken and the Trump administration will be --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We have to leave it there. Survivors of Jeffrey Epstein take to Capitol Hill with lawmakers by their side to say that what he did to them was not a hoax. But the President disagrees with that. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:36:44] PHILLIP: Tonight, lawmakers from both sides of the aisle stood outside the Capitol alongside women who said that they were abused by Jeffrey Epstein. It was all in support of an effort to bypass House leadership and force a vote on releasing the Epstein files. The victims had a simple message for President Trump, one that he promptly ignored.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARINA LACERDA, EPSTEIN ABUSE SURVIVOR: We are tired of looking at the news and seeing Jeffrey Epstein's name and saying that this is a hoax. We are tired of it.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: This is a Democrat hoax that never ends.
LACERDA: Listen to us. This is not a hoax. Like, it's not going to go away.
TRUMP: From what I understand, thousands of pages of documents have been given, but it's really a Democrat hoax.
HALEY ROBSON, EPSTEIN ABUSE SURVIVOR: I would like Donald J. Trump and every person in America and around the world to humanize us, to see us for who we are and to hear us for what we have to say. There is no hoax. The abuse was real.
TRUMP: We're having the most successful eight months of any President ever. And that's what I want to talk about. That's what we should be talking about, not the Epstein hoax.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The White House in a statement today says, "Helping Thomas Massie and liberal Democrats with their attention-seeking, while the DOJ is fully supporting a more comprehensive file release effort from the Oversight Committee would be viewed as a very hostile act to this administration."
Nina, I am still really struggling to understand why the -- why this opposition -- why is it so strong from the White House? The opposition to what these women want, the opposition to what some members of their own party want.
TURNER: Yeah, I'm having a hard time too, Abby. It's one thing to say, you know, he wants to blame Representative Massie or Representative O'Connor. That's one thing, even though I believe that they're doing the right thing. But when you have the survivors who have unified and said, see us, we're here, this is what we need and what we want, and yet the President continues to dismiss it, that's really, that's hard.
And the President is showing a disregard for the collective experiences of these women and even younger, you know, girls. And it's astonishing that the so-called party of family values would then not value these women and these survivors who are saying, we are, here us, that this is not a partisan issue. See, they playing games in our face. You're playing politics with people's lives when in fact, these women should get their say, and also release what you have and let the chips fall where they may.
ABRAMS: There's a legal argument to make here that they shouldn't be releasing files, right, of just investigative files in any case, right?
TURNER: Release what they can, Dan.
ABRAMS: Then, well, look, they would say that they are releasing what they can.
TURNER: No.
ABRAMS: If the argument is release what you can, they have a good argument. If the argument is release everything, that's where the hypocrisy --
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: Well, release what you can and then don't just try to make this just a democratic hoax.
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: -- minimizing what happened to these women.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Well, I agree, but it is true that Democrats deserve some blame for the fact that for the last four years, they could have -- they could have released these and --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: -- suddenly, this is the biggest issue.
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: Wait, wait. No, no. I'm with you on that.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Okay, yeah.
TURNER: Let me tell you something. I'm a whole different breed when President Biden failed --
ABRAMS: Okay.
TURNER: -- and any other Democrat in that mix failed, they should have released them then. But just because they didn't release them then --
(CROSSTALK) TURNER: Well, just because they didn't do anything or speak up about it, does not make it -- but it -- but again, it does not negate --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: But it does make --
TURNER: -- the opportunity to do something about it now.
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: A hundred percent --
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: Then fix it. If you want to be above, power, fix it.
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: Wait, wait, Ben. Let me -- I said -- I said, I always do. I called it like I see it.
FERGUSON: Okay.
TURNER: Democrats failed, right?
FERGUSON: Miserably. They didn't care until politics came in.
TURNER: They failed.
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: But, Ben, okay. So, let President Trump who's the greatest person that ever walked at the face of the earth -- ask him and he'll tell you that -- President Trump has an opportunity. I want the President -- I want the President to see this as an opportunity to so some good for these women.
ABRAMS: But let's not just blame Democrats. I blame Democrats, I mean, let's also blame the far right on this. They're the ones who've been clamoring for years to get the Epstein files released. Then suddenly, many of them don't care about it which is why someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene deserves credit for intellectual consistency on this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, let me -- and let me play Marjorie Taylor Greene on this because I think she makes the point that you're making.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R) GEORGIA: Today, he called it a hoax while these women were speaking out. It's not a hoax because Jeffrey Epstein is a convicted pedophile. That takes away the whole hoax thing. It's not a hoax. It's not a lie. One of the Trump admin officials came out and called this a hostile
act against the Trump administration. Well, that coward attacked me and attacked anybody else and called it a hostile act. The hostile act was Jeffrey Epstein raping 14-year-old girls. That was the hostile act and it's not a hoax.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TURNER: There it is.
QUINN: You know what, in this conversation, the women and girls are getting lost.
TURNER: That's true.
QUINN: Yes, the Democrats did the wrong thing, and now President Trump is doing the wrong thing. Calling this a hoax, whether he's referring to whatever he's exactly --
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: Wait, wait. But using that language -- using that language, and even the conversation tonight, who's to blame? We need to be focusing on these survivors and their stories, and we are not doing that enough.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: But here's what I said. That's not the legal question we are asking. I mean --
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
QUINN: But the question is --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: The question is --
FERGUSON: Can you put everything out there and protect the victims?
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: But the President --
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: -- this to politics. The survivors are --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Democrats were the only ones that went out there every day in front of these cameras to play politics. Any given day.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: They did it --
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: No, Marjorie Taylor Greene is not a Democrat --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. Exactly.
QUINN: - any day of the week.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Marjorie Taylor Greene is not a Democrat.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- not a Democrat. Hold on -- hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: She's never found a camera she didn't love.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm not going to defend her.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. This is not about Marjorie Taylor Greene, okay? This is not about Marjorie Taylor Greene. Prior to this moment, even when Donald Trump was on the campaign trail, he was up there.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: He was advocating for the victims.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He was up there. He was saying, we're going to release the Jeffrey Epstein files.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Kash Patel said it should have been day one.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: We're going to release the Epstein files. So they, listen, they said -- they said they wanted to release it. They said they wanted to release it. And the thing is there's huge gap between what Trump is saying and what he could say. That would be -- right? So, what he's saying is, this is all a hoax, they're out to get me, whatever, whatever, whatever.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He could say, could say, we are going to try to get to the bottom of this. He could say that we are going to do that in a way that doesn't violate anybody's rights. But that gets it.
FERGUSON: That's what they're doing.
PHILLIP: He did not say that.
FERGUSON: Abby, Abby, okay. Let me explain. For everyone that's watching, so they understand actually how simple this is. Donald Trump is saying the hoax is Democrats acting like they give a damn about these women. That's exactly what he's been saying over and over again. Second point is this. You have to protect the victims. I said this on this show with you weeks ago. You can't just release everything.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: That was -- come on --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You just said a moment ago. I literally could quote you tonight on the show. Dan Abrams said, dot dot --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: You misunderstood me. Let me --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: No, no. Let me make it really clear. I'll make it really clear. I said that in any investigation there should be real concern about releasing all of the underlying --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Couldn't agree with you more.
ABRAMS: I happen to believe that. I believe that in this investigation. I believe it. We had in any investigation. But the enormous hypocrisy of the far right in particular on this, in particular, Pam Bondi saying, it's sitting on my desk, and all we're doing right now is we are working overnight. All these FBI agents are in there redacting the names of victims. That's all we're doing before we release it. We now know that's not true. That's a lie. That was not what was happening.
[22:45:00]
Because if that's what was happening, this would have been released already. That doesn't mean yes, and therefore we must release it all. But let's at least call a spade a spade. Just call them out.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay. I got to give Scott a quick last word here. Scott.
JENNINGS: Yeah, I -- well, first of all they have released 30- something thousand documents.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Ninety-seven percent of which should have been released.
QUINN: Yeah, and they're new. They're not new.
JENNINGS: But they're obviously -- what the White House obviously wants is to set up a process here where they're working it through the House Oversight Committee. It sounds reasonable to me. I watched a lot of the coverage of this today. I was somewhat surprised -- and by the way, I'm sympathetic to the victims. I think they should be heard. I'm glad they testified. I think they should get to talk as much as they want.
I was somewhat surprised today to not hear who -- I didn't hear any names today. I thought when they have their press conference, they were going to start naming names.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: They said they're compiling a list.
QUINN: They are going to.
JENNINGS: Just now? I mean, I'm waiting for the same list. I was a little surprised.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I would say -- I would say, Scott, I mean, one, just -- we got to go but one thing to note is that many of them had never met each other until today.
QUINN: Yeah.
PHILLIP: And so, the idea that all of these victims are now in the same space, that really has not ever happened.
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: And it's not so easy.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And so, so, yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We'll see what comes of what they know collectively. And they've also said that they want to release the names confidentially. And I think that they're doing that for a reason, perhaps, to do it responsibly. Not to just put the names out there, but to say, this is what our recollection is. Let's give it to the authorities who might be able to do something about it. The question is, will anybody do anything about it? All right --
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: And to give those names without knowing you're going to get protection of law enforcement around you is very frightening.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: You might get sued.
PHILLIP: All right. And you might get sued.
QUINN: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Next for us, New York City's mayor, Eric Adams, playing defense tonight after rumors that the White House wants to offer him a brand new job. But there is a big catch to that one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:51:32]
PHILLIP: New reporting tonight that the Trump administration could be wading into the New York City mayoral race. Sources tell CNN that aides have floated the idea of offering Mayor Eric Adams a new job ahead of the November election. The goal? To clear the field to potentially boost Andrew Cuomo and get rid of Democratic nominee Zohran Mamdani. A spokesman for Adams's campaign said, "Mayor Adams has not met with Donald Trump. Don't believe the noise," and that, " -- he is not dropping out of the race."
I just want to note -- has not met with Donald Trump is not the same thing as has not been offered a job by the Trump administration. Would this even work, Christine?
QUINN: First of all, this is the best thing to happen to Mamdani's campaign because Donald Trump is despised by New Yorkers and connecting Andrew Cuomo to Donald Trump to help his campaign is only going to send people voting for Mamdani. Beyond that, if other candidates courtesy while the Republican stays in the race, the numbers are not there for Cuomo.
PHILLIP: Okay, so maybe this is 4D chess. Maybe the 4D chess is to get -- is to make New Yorkers think that he's behind Cuomo and then --
(LAUGHTER) PHILLIP: He gets the Republicans --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Good night, everyone.
PHILLIP: -- always wanted. I mean, if Mamdani is the dream candidate of Republicans, why would the White House be trying get rid of him?
FERGUSON: Look, I think the President actually cares about the city he lived in where his friends are. I think he actually is terrified of what Mamdani was going to do. I go back to his list -- abolished the New York Police Department, abolished prison, abolished medical bills, abolished private health insurance, ban all guns, legalized sex work, safe injection sites, in cash bail, decriminalized drug possession.
PHILLIP: So, wouldn't he rather run on that in 2026?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: No, but I -- this is where --
PHILLIP: I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I don't think you understand Donald Trump the way that I would say you and I do. Like, if you spent time with him, there are a lot of things that he actually really genuinely cares about, what he went through to run for president again and the hell he went through. Like, I think he loves the people of New York. I think he's terrified what this is going to do to New York. And I think he's trying to figure out a way to make sure it doesn't happen the same way that he wants to make Washington D.C. safe.
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: Maybe the President's predicting the future on this and he knows that Mayor Adams will need a job. And he's getting a repair ahead of time. This is -- Scott and I were talking during the commercial break. This is nothing new in the political realm where people are offered jobs. I think what is unique here is that the President is jumping into a Democratic primary.
PHILLIP: This could backfire though, Scott, in a big way.
JENNINGS: I've already resigned myself to the idea that New York's going to be under the control of the socialists come --
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: The voters --
JENNINGS: -- November. And so, we're going to --
(CROSSTALK) JENNINGS: -- capital of the world.
TURNER: Oh my gosh.
JENNINGS: -- under the control of an avowed socialist who wants to do all these terrible things --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, Dan.
ABRAMS: Look, I still find it hard to believe this is all going to happen. But Adams getting a job, maybe. Also getting slew out of the race, I think becomes a super long shot. And as a result, I don't see this working. But I'm with you. I mean, it, I mean, Mamdani is the best thing that could happen to Republicans and Donald Trump. He is like --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: He's even better. Even better.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: He'll ruin, like, I love New York city.
[22:55:00]
The scary thing is he's going to ruin an amazing city and it will end up being --
TURNER: Oh my God. So, the voters don't know what they're doing. The world's going to come to an end.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: They could choose -- I don't know here. They could choose.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: And I love they could choose. When you look at what he said, he's going to --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Do you think we should not have criminals in prison?
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: Oh my God.
QUINN: He doesn't support getting --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: He said -- QUINN: -- getting rid of the police department.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You did say that.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Anymore.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. Everyone, thank you very much. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:15]
PHILLIP: Tonight, it looks like there's no such thing as bad press. American Eagle's stocks surged 25 percent today after its earnings report revealed its collaboration with Sydney Sweeney sold out within a week. Now, that said, the company says it expects tariffs to hurt the bottom line next quarter. Thank you so much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
