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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

FBI Manhunt for Charlie Kirk's Killer, No One in Custody; Conservative Activist Charlie Kirk Shot and Killed at Event; Authorities Say, Shooter Potentially Fired at Kirk from Roof. Charlie Kirk Is Assassinated At Utah Valley University; Zohran Mamdani Speaks On Kirk's Death. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired September 10, 2025 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[22:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Abby Philip.

Another reckoning for America as the nation grapples with another act of political violence. Conservative activist, and Trump Ally Charlie Kirk shot and killed just hours ago at an event on the campus of Utah Valley University. He was only 31 years, a husband and a father of two young children.

But this very moment, his killer is still unknown and still on the loose. There is an FBI manhunt underway for the assassin as investigators are combing through the crime scene and all the evidence.

Now, this is some new video that we just got in showing someone running on a roof after the shooting. You see it there. Charlie Kirk was speaking in front of thousands of college students when a gunman fired a single shot. Police believe it came from a very long distance, possibly the roof of that nearby building that you just saw.

Now, Kirk was one of the most prominent voices, young voices, in the conservative movement. He was a successful field organizer, a TikTok influencer, a radio host. In 2012, at just the age of 18, he founded Turning Point USA, an organization that advocates for conservative politics on high schools and university campuses.

Now, President Trump has even credited Kirk with mobilizing the youth vote in 2024. And just moments ago, he released this video statement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Charlie was a patriot who devoted his life to the cause of open debate and the country that he loves so much, the United States of America. He fought for liberty, democracy, justice, and the American people. He's a martyr for truth and freedom.

Today, because of this heinous act, Charlie's voice has become bigger and grander than ever before.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: Let's go live to CNN's Ed Lavandera who is near the murder scene on that college campus.

Now, Ed, tell us what it's like there right now. I mean, we just hours ago saw thousands of people running for their lives. So, what do you see from where you are?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the juxtaposition here is quite striking as we see just, you know, kind of the normal end of day traffic. We are cordoned off on the edge of the university, Utah Valley University, campus.

So, what you see behind me, you can see the police lights there blocking off all the entrance. The campus has been shut down, classes canceled for the rest of the week, as investigators inside the campus there continue to comb through the scene. We were told a short while ago that the university had been cleared. But this really remains a chaotic day.

And just to kind of give you a sense of where we're at here, Abby, if you look through the buildings here, you might see that the lights there and some of the flashing lights on top of the buildings, just over that is the square in the area where the shooting took place. And the video that you're talking about, you can see a man running across a rooftop, that is in the distance there too, and that would have a vantage point looking down on the courtyard area where Charlie Kirk had been gathering and speaking with students.

As you mentioned a huge crowd had turned out. The videos of Charlie Kirk and the moments leading up to the shooting showed him tossing hats into the crowd, interacting with all of the people who had come to see him. In fact, it was the Turning Point USA student body chapter here at this university that had invited him to come and speak here.

And the university president said they are shocked and saddened by the shooting and horrified that so many young people had to witness this unimaginable tragedy. And the videos that are out there are quite gruesome. And to think about that, a bunch, a huge crowd of young people witness this horrific moment is, you know, very striking, obviously, something they will never forget.

But as all of this has transpired, this also remains a very volatile and dangerous situation because the suspect is still on the loose. There were a number of people who were apprehended, at least briefly. I'll walk you through that, which is quite confusing. But in moments right after the shooting, there was one person grabbed by authorities on the scene. That turned out to not be someone connected to the shooting. There was described as a, quote, not the accurate person of interest.

[22:05:01]

And then sometime later, another person was taken into authorities. Federal investigators and officials are saying that that person was not the person of interest as well, and that person has been released. So, there's some chaotic moments here in the hours after this shooting. But the bottom line, Abby, is that this gunman and the shooter still remains on the loose.

And I want to point out a little bit of like, kind of the geography of the campus here, Abby, as well. You know, you can see the busy street that is behind me. This is the southern edge of the campus. And then just beyond the traffic light over there is the interstate that runs north and south, north all the way to Salt Lake City and beyond.

And I point that out because I do kind of think as we try to figure out how this gunman could have escaped this situation and gotten away. There are, you know, busy avenues here. There's an interstate, if they did have a vehicle, you know, there are places where they could quickly escape to and get away from the scene. And, you know, so I bring that up, so we have no idea how this person might have been able to escape the situation at this point.

But just to kind of give you a lay of the land as to what may or may not have happened here, as we try to figure out and follow what authorities are presumably doing, which is engaged in a very intense manhunt, trying to find who this person is and the (INAUDIBLE) tonight, Abby, make no mistake about it, that they will figure out who this is and bring them to justice. Abby?

PHILLIP: Yes. And I think that becomes very important because this suspect is not apprehended. So, the avenues to get in and out of that campus become super important.

Ed, what else are campus officials saying about this? And the students right now, I mean, do some of them live on this campus? Do they live off campus? And where are they now that this campus has been fully cleared, as you just mentioned?

LAVANDERA: Yes. No, it's one of the largest universities here in the state of Utah, so a huge number of people. Obviously, some live on campus, some live off campus as well. But, you know, the university officials really kind of striking the tone that that they are, you know, shocked and saddened by what unfolded here? And many of them struck. because, you know, Charlie Kirk was sitting in a chair underneath a tent, very close to students who had come out to see him. And, you know, so those were people who witnessed, you know, a large number of people who had a very up close perspective and view of the tragedy and the horrific moment that unfolded here before their eyes. And that is what university officials have been, you know, very concerned about, as they've talked about the, you know, the students in that moment.

And after hearing the gunshot rang out, you know, you saw thousands running for their lives to try to escape that situation. So, a great deal of concern for them here, as you know, they deal with that and also trying to find this suspect and assure people here that they will be safe.

They have said that they believe that this is the act of one person at this moment. And, you know -- but despite that, until this person is in custody, there won't really be a sense of relief here until that person is taken into custody. Abby?

PHILLIP: Yes, certainly not. I think everyone, not just in Utah, but around the country on edge tonight.

Ed Lavandera, thank you very much. We'll come back to you as this manhunt unfolds.

For more on what to expect in the investigation, we're joined by CNN Legal Analyst Joey Jackson, former NYPD Lieutenant and Criminal Justice Expert Darrin Porcher and Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst for CNN John Miller.

John Miller, I just want to start with the scene there, as Ed laid it out. Because one of the things that I think when you see a scene like that, it reminds me of a campaign rally, a sort of a large, a mass event. And those types of events, what I'm used to seeing is a lot of security because when you gather all these people together all at once, it creates an opportunity, a target.

And I wonder what you know about how secure it was. Did they have any sense that maybe they did need to secure those buildings around that open area, or was that -- or was this something that perhaps maybe for law enforcement didn't rise to that level?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I think it would've been counterintuitive only because this is Charlie Kirk's sweet spot. This is what he does. He just -- you know, I get his emails about all his events and, you know, he just posted from Tampa about how great it was and the mood and so on.

So, this is an outdoor event at a theoretically, you know, friendly area in Utah, where he brought his own security.

PHILLIP: You can see them in those videos.

MILLER: That's right around him. And that is what we would call close protection. They are right there with him. If somebody comes over the double set of barriers, they're there to interdict that, if there's a threat from the crowd.

[22:10:06]

This does not anticipate the kind of planning that would go into a long range sniper shot. It's just not the type of security that is considered when you're dealing with somebody who's, you know, really only a medium threat, you know, player in that realm.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, in the sense that he's a civilian. He's not a politician.

MILLER: Not an elected official, not a global leader.

PHILLIP: Yes. But, Darron, I mean, that shot from, I think, they believe maybe as much as 200 yards away, that is a long distance. Tell me about what you think that would've required in order to pull that off. DARRIN PORCHER, FORMER NYPD LIEUTENANT: Well, I was an officer in the Army and I've shot a rifle from 200 yards, and that's a very difficult shot to make. However, if you have someone that's an expert shot, and I give you an example, the Charles Whitman shooting that happened back in the 60s in the clock tower on the University of Texas. You had an ex-Marine that was shooting people at distances upwards of 200 to 300 yards away. He didn't have a tripod. He didn't have a bipod. He was merely using a bolt action rifle. And, unfortunately, he was successful.

But then we look at what happened when President Trump was shot last year, and we had a similar situation, an outside venue, we had a sniper that was on the roof of a building that was at a closer distance, although he, meaning President Trump, had Secret Service protection, the shooter was able to fire off a shot that was able to hit President Trump.

It is very difficult, as John Miller mentioned, to secure an outside venue. So, when we look to the threat assessment of Mr. Kirk in this particular situation, we generally didn't believe that the threat rose commensurate with having that level of outside security.

PHILLIP: Yes. But even on a college campus, I mean, you have to wonder what the university is thinking about, crowds of that size and how they even secure their campus from outsiders.

But, Joey, I want to ask you. I mean, Ed alluded to this, there were two different occasions today when they mentioned that they may have had a suspect in custody. Have you ever seen anything quite like that on a -- in an incident of this magnitude.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, you can and you do, Abby, that is there's intense public pressure to find someone. People are concerned. People are afraid. And as a result of that, you have law enforcement who's out there scouring communities and making sure that people feel safe.

And so what do you do? You're generally over-inclusive. What do I mean? If somebody conceivably was involved, if somebody you believed -- you have reasonable cause to believe, there's probable cause to believe, and so therefore you get them, you question them.

Is there a rush to judgment oftentimes because of the public pressure? Perhaps. But I think ultimately, no matter whether or not there were some really false alarms with respect to whether they had the right person, I think, ultimately, they will get the right person. Why? Because law enforcement now is just so advanced with respect to surveillance everywhere, with regard to witnesses, with regard to cell phone towers and everything else. And so once they do get the person under control, there will be a process. And we've already heard what they would do in terms of that process.

PHILLIP: To that point, I mean, John, you know, what does this manhunt look like right now? I mean, we saw that large roadway that Ed Lavandera was standing in front of that led to essentially the highways that can lead you north or south. There's a lot of terrain to cover in a state like Utah. What does it look like now?

MILLER: Well, it's easier to have a man hunt when you know who the man you're hunting is. In this case, they're back to square one. There is another person of interest that they're going to look at, but it is just as likely that that person may end up in the same process as the last person. And Darrin will tell you this. When you start a case like this, you know, you grab someone who fits the description near the scene, that's about bringing them in saying, okay, where were you, where were you coming from. And once that alibi is solid and you realize you have the wrong person, you know, you move on to the next suspect. You can go through two or three or four, and you may go into a period where you really do start over.

Think of the murder of the Idaho students in that house and with no witness, no description, no license plate. They had to use every other technique to develop it clue by clue. In this case, you're going to see, they're going to do an expanded video canvas of all the cameras on the campus. That could take days, which is why the FBI and others will surge personnel to that. They'll be looking at the license plate readers for all of those parking lots. And then they'll be running that against names and records, getting tips from the public, getting video from the public.

PHILLIP: But it's hard because, I mean, you have thousands of people coming in and out of that area, fleeing in the moment that those shots rang out. I mean, I'm just underscoring the difficulty.

MILLER: It's going to be hard.

[22:15:00]

PHILLIP: Right?

MILLER: I mean, we realized it wasn't going to be easy when the first suspect flamed out.

PHILLIP: Right.

MILLER: Now, we're back to hard.

PHILLIP: I mean, what do you make, Darrin, also just of the fact that the FBI was stated -- the FBI director stated that a subject was in custody? There was a kind of declarative nature to both of those posts very early on. That is surprising when it turned out ultimately that neither of those individuals were responsible.

PORCHER: Well, law enforcement wants to be as transparent as possible to the public because they want to calm the nerves of the public to let them know that, hey, look, we have a potential suspect in custody, and this violent individual is no longer on the street. We have the triangulation of three different agencies. We have the federal law enforcement, we have state law enforcement and local law enforcement. Those three entities are going to work in tandem to try to solve this as best as possible. I, on many occasions, have stopped people that I believed to be suspects, but it later turned out that that wasn't the case. That's fine. But we need to keep grinding. And what's the uniqueness of this particular situation is because we had thousands of people that were on the ground that can afford us what they actually, what their observations were in addition to the video, like John Miller mentioned. And that stuff is going to be put together to see what we have.

Now, the video, my understanding, hasn't been good, but the uniqueness of a college campus is you are going to have video cameras all over the place. Joey Jackson --

PHILLIP: You need the video like from people or the video from the camera?

PORCHER: From people as well as at the campus. Joey Jackson and myself, we are former college professors and we can clearly tell you that you have video all over these college campuses. So, I think that's going to enhance to search, and I just think it's a matter of time before we bring this person into custody.

PHILLIP: All right. Everyone stand by for a moment.

In addition to his comments about Kirk, President Trump ordered American flags to be lowered to half staff in his honor. And CNN Senior White House Correspondent Kristen Holmes joins us with more on the White House's reaction.

Kristen, this has really sent shockwaves through the sort of MAGA world here. What is the reaction like in that building behind you?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I mean, it's devastation, Abby. It is disbelief. It is shock. Each of these advisers and allies to President Trump, these White House staffers each seem to have their own personal story about Charlie Kirk. The president himself, I was told from one source, viewed Kirk as a son.

And I do want to bring up this post from Trump's actual son, Don Jr. This is an emotional and lengthy tribute that he made to Kirk, in which he says, Charlie wasn't just a friend, he was like a little brother to me. And to millions of people around the world, he was a true inspiration. And then he goes on to say, the impact he had on young people, reaching them in masses, giving them courage to stand up, to think for themselves and to fight for freedom is immeasurable. There is no question that Charlie's work and his voice helped my father win the presidency. He changed the direction of this nation.

So, two things are happening here when you ask about what the reaction is inside of the White House. One, there is the political, the fact that Charlie Kirk is credited with helping Donald Trump not only win Arizona but win the entire election. He built an entire network of young conservatives and he drove them out to vote. We reported on this extensively during the campaign.

The other part of this is Charlie himself had his finger on the pulse of the MAGA movement, even more so than some of the people who actually sit on Trump's cabinet. He brought issues to the White House. He brought issues to President Trump when he thought they weren't getting enough attention from the White House or from the administration.

But what we're also hearing is personal stories from the staffers. It was a very small group of people who worked on the campaign. Many of them, it was an insular group, they were loyal to not only President Trump but also to each other, and Charlie Kirk was part of that. So, it's not just mourning the loss of somebody who helped President Trump win, it's also the personal loss of their friend, of somebody who they spent time with, his wife, with his children.

Charlie Kirk was a staple here at the White House. He doesn't live here. He lives in Arizona. But he came often. He came for the swearing in of multiple different officials because he was friends with those officials. He had direct relationships with many, if not all, of the cabinet officials in this White House.

So, they are really experiencing a great loss here. Again, not just of the political movement, but also a personal loss of a friend, a confidant, somebody who, if you read the post that you're seeing from individuals inside the White House, including Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt, believed in them and inspired them.

PHILLIP: Kristen Holmes, thank you very much for that and thank you for joining us.

Back to the panel here. Joey, earlier today, Utah Governor Spencer Cox, he was very explicit in saying that Utah is a death penalty state, and that is on the table. We don't have a suspect yet. But what do you think if this person ends up being apprehended alive, the prospects of that kind of punishment?

[22:20:07]

JACKSON: Yes, I think the prospects are very good. I mean, look, you have Utah, and they take the death penalty very seriously. In fact, it's one of three states that allows for a firing squad, if you could imagine that. And, in fact, they just executed someone last year. And so in the event that you're found guilty, obviously a jury has to make that determination. We're ways away from that. What kind of proof do they have? What kind of evidence do they have? What kind of premeditation do they have? What kind of witnesses do they have, which would attest to an individual who might have committed this? And then you go into an issue of a trial.

Prior to that, you have the D.A., district attorney, who has to file notice with respect to whether they're seeking it. And whether they get it, Abby, really depends upon something called aggravated factors. Number one, does it fit within the rubric of a death penalty? There's very definitive lines as to whether it can be applied.

One thing talks about an elected official. He's not a public official, or, and here's what it is, someone similar in that situation. Could this be applied here? And in the event it does, I think you have people who have very strong feelings here. It certainly is a death penalty jurisdiction, and I think a jury would weigh the facts evidence, see whether those aggravating circumstances outweigh anything that would prevent them, that is the jury, from imposing it. But I would not be at all surprised once they definitively have a suspect involved. Once they get someone and these false alarms are over, that that's what would be pursued.

PHILLIP: Would the federal government seek to try the suspect as well? You've seen this DOJ get involved in a lot of these types of --

JACKSON: So we have, and just so that everyone's clear, what happens is that, certainly, the state has primary jurisdiction. It happened on a university. It happened in the state. It happened in Utah. Certainly, the federal government has the death penalty, but you have this issue of concurrence, very briefly, and that's what this is, Abby, the state has a right to ultimately move forward on state charges and the federal government, in investigating this, should there be a federal crime here, right, that is determined based upon the facts and the evidence, we're not there yet, then the federal government could have additional jurisdiction. We don't know all the facts to make that case right now.

PHILLIP: Yes. And, John Miller, I mean, look, the broader context here is that last year, we had two assassination attempts against President Trump, then a candidate, now we have this over. At the FBI and the DOJ, what is happening there in terms of truly trying to understand what is driving this rise in political violence? We had the situations in Minnesota as well. There's something going on in this country that is dangerous and dark and toxic. What, do you think, they're doing about it?

MILLER: I've been immersed in this, and I say that because I've spent the last two days, all day, at a conference of counterterrorism officials and analysts examining these very questions, which is, we've crossed some kind of line here, when you look at the fact that you had the UnitedHealthcare CEO in a different kind of assassination, not a long range sniper, but a close in stalker with a gun.

You had the individuals coming out of the Jewish museum in Washington, we were on the air together that night, assassinated by an individual who flew down to Washington for a business meeting and put this on a schedule at the end of the day.

You had the individual who opened fire on the Center for Disease Control just a couple of weeks ago and killed a police officer. The Molotov cocktails in Boulder, the assassination of elected officials at their homes at 3:00 in the morning by an individual dressed as a policeman in Minneapolis, a school shooting again in Minnesota just a couple of weeks back.

We haven't -- we have seen all these things. We have not seen this pace before. And this is a challenge for the behavioral analysis unit people at the FBI for the analysts I've been with the last two days to say, do they drive each other? Do they inspire each other? Does one spur the next one? Is it contagion? Is this going to be the normal pace? Is there something to draw that back? And they're struggling with it.

PHILLIP: Yes. Yes. I mean, we are all struggling with this as a nation. Everyone, thank you very much.

Coming up next we'll talk about that epidemic of political violence in this country and the president tonight blaming the radical left for violence and for this tragedy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:25:00]

PHILLIP: Charlie Kirk's assassination is tragically now more evidence of the rise in political violence in this country. Former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords posted tonight, the democratic societies will always have political disagreements, but we must never allow America to become a country that confronts those disagreements with violence.

Giffords, of course, was shot in the head in 2011 at a campaign event in her home state. Six people were killed and 12 others were injured. In 2017, Republican Congressman Steve Scalise shot at the baseball game, the Congressional Baseball Game in Washington, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Joe Biden, and this network, all targets of bomb and death threats in 2018. Governor Gretchen Whitmer, a Democrat, the subject of a domestic terror plot in 2020. The January 6th riots, there were chants for hanging Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi. 2022, Speaker Pelosi's husband was attacked in a home invasion.

[22:30:02]

And Republican Congressman Lee Zeldin was confronted on stage by a man with a weapon. In 2023, Republican Senator Rick Scott was the target of death threats and swatting, and the 2024 assassination attempt of President Trump in Pennsylvania.

Earlier this year, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's family and his home were targets of an arsonist. And on June 14th, Minnesota Democratic State Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband were assassinated in their home. Minnesota State Senator John Hoffman and his wife were also shot and critically wounded.

This is a poison that is now in the bloodstream. And I just want to give voice to, I think what all of us in the country, not just in the studio, but all of us in the country are feeling tonight, which is that when you can't go out and a university campus and speak without risking being shot.

When you can't stand at a campaign rally without risking being shot, none of us are safe in a country like that, Governor. And I'm just wondering, I mean, are we at a point where we are going to finally address that and not just fold it into the pre-existing partisan disagreements that we have?

TIM PAWLENTY (R) FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: Well, I think you put your finger right on one of the main points here, Abby. And I had a chance today to do some research, including running what are the reasons for political violence or triggering dramatic political violent events through several A.I. chatbots.

And there are numerous factors, but three of the most prominent that kept coming over and over again. One, was dehumanization of opponents. Two, was identity cleavages. And three, was disinformation and conspiracy theories. Does that sound familiar to your viewers, to anybody at this table --

PHILLIP: We're deep in that.

PAWLENTY: -- resonates with all of us.

PHILLIP: Yeah.

PAWLENTY: And I would add just two more. These are mine. We have a major mental health crisis in this country. We have way too many people out and about who are disassociated, who are seriously mentally ill, some of whom, not all of whom, are prone to violence. And for those individuals, we need better solutions. And the last one is, undeniably, we have a political, hysteria, commercial, industrial complex in this country that whips people into a frenzy.

PHILLIP: It's -- those are all, I think, incredibly valid points. I just want to play, though, I mean, we heard from the President tonight, we played a little bit from him earlier today about Charlie Kirk, who I know is such a huge part of his coalition. But he also broadened this out. We don't have a suspect yet, but he broadened this out to what he described as those who contributed to this atrocity. I want you to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's a long past time for all Americans and the media to confront the fact that violence and murder are the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree day after day, year after year, in the most hateful and despicable way possible.

For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world's worst mass murderers and criminals. This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're seeing in our country today and it must stop right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TERRY MORAN, SUBSTACK AUTHOR, "REAL PATRIOTISM": Well, among Donald Trump's many accomplishments is that he changed political culture. He went where other candidates had not before. He ran for president, he didn't talk like Donald Trump. And demonizing is part now of the repertoire of political speech.

And yet, you know, Gabby Giffords is right. We should not settle our disagreements through violence. But we do. And I think this sickness is in the civic soul of the country and our phones. You know, we have become accustomed to demonizing each other because we don't know each other anymore. We have segregated ourselves into these little culturally pure, politically pure neighborhoods and states even.

And when you ask Republicans to describe the typical Democrat, they describe a kind of monster version of the typical Democrat. When we ask a Democrat to describe the typical Republican, they describe someone far more extreme than most people who voted for Donald Trump. We don't know each other.

PHILLIP: Yeah. I think he's right about part of it, but I think you have to look at the whole picture, which is that, to your point, that kind of language is happening on all sides of the political spectrum. And you can't really look at political violence, including even if you just took a snapshot of this year and say that it's only coming from one side of the political spectrum. And that is what makes it an American problem that we have to address, not a partisan problem.

JOE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: True, but Gabby -- Havvy, excuse me, I'm thinking of Gabby Giffords.

[22:35:00]

It would be good if one Democrat does what I have come on this network and said a million times. And I've looked at my own party and when they're wrong, I've addressed that and said that and agree with them. But a lot of people who are of the left of the Democratic Party use the term Nazi, use the term fascist. Southern Poverty Law Center called Turning Point USA a right-wing extremist group, you know, something on those lines.

Those things aren't true. And when you hear like the Vice President of the United States call Trump and his supporters, you know, downstream fascist and Nazis, it would be good for someone to come out and just acknowledge what we all know, that that isn't the case. I think the bigger picture, we have to learn to differentiate between anger and hate in politics.

Anger is what gets young people out there in the streets, putting up flyers, knocking on doors, advocating for candidates. It's what gets people to run for office, why people voted for Barack Obama or Donald Trump, or whoever. Anger is a good force in politics. Hate and that dehumanization that was just mentioned, that is the problem.

When you see your political opponent as subhuman, when you see them as a Nazi, when you see them as a fascist, you can mentally justify doing extreme things. That's the line that nobody in this system should cross.

PHILLIP: Yeah, I totally agree. I guess I just wonder, we have to address all of it. I mean, I was on, you know, the internet today seeing people on the right calling people on the left demons, saying that they were evil, communists, et cetera, et cetera. I'm talking about leadership here and you understand what I'm talking about, okay?

What does leadership demand in this moment from the top down to set the tone? You know, I can't imagine that a conversation about what's really going on in this country can only be directed at one side of the equation. PAWLENTY: Not long ago, I wrote an op-ed for the "Minneapolis Star

Tribune" called "More Than Devils Left" and it was based on a phrase from John Dutton in the 'Yellowstone" series when somebody was saying he's making a bad deal with bad people, and he said you're making a deal with the devil and he said there's only devils left.

The point of the op-ed was in our country while all the folks on the fringes get a lot of attention, there are more than devils left. We have to have leaders, to your question, who see the goodness of the country, who see the goodness of people collectively, even if some individuals behave poorly, and rise above all of that, and have us call out our better angels, call -- look to our better angels.

And leaders have to be role models. I'm a big believer in leaders having to set the tone and being able to set the example. And it starts with each of us and all of us.

MORAN: Yeah, one of the things that hurts so much about today is Charlie Kirk was doing that, okay?

PAWLENTY: Yes.

MORAN: He was murdered on a university campus sitting under a tent that proclaimed his invitation to speech. Prove me wrong. And he wanted people, invited people to challenge him, to counter him. And I didn't necessarily agree with Charlie Kirk, and a lot of people found what he said hurtful.

But free speech sometimes stinks, right? Free speech is supposed to get your attention, supposed to try to change your mind. And there is a school of thought that free speech is violence, or free speech is a myth. It's not. It's the only way out. And he was practicing it. Maybe a way that I wouldn't have.

PAWLENTY: And we don't know about the shooter yet but I'll make a bet. The pattern is young man, not always young, but almost always men, deranged. And we think it's rational. It's like well, why would you shoot Charlie Kirk? Because he was for free speech. He was reaching out. He was being in -- could disagree with them.

But he was trying to make an effort to be a uniter, at least, somebody you have an honest, open debate. And he gets shot, you know. That this exercising what's on his mind, he gets shot in the head. It's terrible, but I'll lay a wager that the individual they find is going to, likely, not certainly, the severely mentally ill and deranged. And we have to address that. We have way too many people exposed to that, and violent.

MORAN: And access to go.

PHILLIP: Can I play -- let me play what Ben Shapiro said about his own personal safety, as somebody who is very much like Charlie Kirk is viewed as a sort of conservatives and has a big megaphone, a sort of movement leader type of figure. This is what he said about his safety.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BEN SHAPIRO, "THE BEN SHAPIRO SHOW" HOST: I despair on behalf of my country. I don't know what this means for the country. I do not know what this means for America, truly. When political figures who just are out to discuss and debate in public are gunned down in cold blood, I do not know what we can expect next. I've had, you know, significant security concerns before. Now, yeah, security team is saying you should put on a bulletproof vest. Okay, fine, I'll do it, but I think it's overkill.

I know Charlie had the same feeling because we'd had that conversation. And that if you feel like, okay, well, you know, is it really that big -- okay, so somebody might take a swing or somebody might yell at you. And then gradually it seems that in this country we have come to the conclusion that if somebody disagrees with you strenuously enough politically, that violence is now a necessity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:40:09]

PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, look, a lot of people know what he's talking about. If you are in the public eye today, if you're a member of the media, if you're a commentator, if you are a politician, you risk every time you walk out your door, some crazy person coming up to you and doing something. And it is -- that is the key to the destruction of a democracy. When people don't think that they can walk out their door and say their viewpoint or, work as a journalist cover politics without somebody trying to kill them.

BORELLI: You know -- you know and we've done this before, and sometimes in the commercial breaks, I like to read some of the messages that I get, you know, routinely, and we laugh at them. But in the back of my head and now it's to the front of my view, some of these people are crazy. Some of these people are really problematic. And the conversation I have with my wife driving over here was, you know, whether it's worth me being a vocal Trump supporter or vocal conservative whether it's actually worth doing it.

And the answer I had was that it is, that the goal of political violence is to suppress free speech. So, I think it is important for people to come out, say things that others find offensive, that others find, you know, upset their core, that's part of the process. But I will tell a story and I'll say who it is. Zohran Mamdani texted me today, and he is someone I've been, right here in this chair, criticizing and criticized by many outlets.

And he texted me something I said about him and another candidate, and we exchanged text. And we had a laugh about it. And we said, great, see you soon. And I wish more people knew that -- that the worst thing I want to happen to Zohran Mamdani is I want him to lose the race, and I do. I want him to lose. I don't want anything bad to happen to him.

I think it would be beneficial if the talking heads of the world expose some of our pleasant chats in the green room, the pleasantries. I know many people on this show are friends personally. I'll be golfing with some people I debate occasionally in a couple of weeks. It -- it's not all life and death all the time.

We can debate fiercely. We can try to make each other lose. That's the goal of this all. But at the end of the day, we are all Americans. We are all hopefully swimming in the same direction for a better country and I think that needs to be said.

PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, I say that a lot about this show, people don't realize that people at - who's at this table who have diametrically opposite views, sometimes their friends, sometimes they're going out to drinks afterwards. But I do want to -- you mentioned Zohran Mamdani, he had some comments on Charlie Kirk's murder today. I want you to listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D) NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Charlie Kirk is dead, yet another victim of gun violence in a nation where what should be a rarity has turned into a plague. It cannot be a question of political agreement or alignment that allows us to mourn. It must be the shared notion of humanity that binds us all.

(APPLAUSE)

MAMDANI: And that humanity, it reminds us that this news is not just that of the murder of a prominent political figure, but also the news of a wife who grieves her husband, of a one-year-old and a three-year- old who will grow up without a father. And the fact that there are families feeling that same anguish right now in Colorado as they wait for their children, also shot at us, to emerge from surgery, is the same anguish that too many across our city and our nation reckon with its silence every day as we contend with an epidemic of suffering.

We can and we must do more to challenge a status quo that has allowed this pain to become routine, that has allowed the question of which mass shooting to respond to the news of one that is shared. And it is incumbent upon all of us to repair the tears in our shared civic fabric and to make our nation one that is worthy of its greatest ideals.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: You know, no doubt, Terry, I'm sure Charlie Kirk thought that Zohran Mamdani, A, should lose, B, was a socialist, maybe a communist, whatever. And I'm sure Zohran Mamdani knows that. But that doesn't change how you react to something that should never happen in a democracy. And I thought that that was the right balance. Maybe you disagree on the gun control part of it. It doesn't really matter. The point was something is broken here.

MORAN: Deeply broken. And what he was talking about was shared humanity. But that happens really in person as you were talking about.

[22:45:01] When we're together physically, we're nicer to each other. The online disinhibition effect on those phones, we aren't. And so, it's easier to get those acid, venomous juices flowing. And in fact, that's the plan. I'd like a moral indictment of these tech companies, this outrage industrial complex --

PHILLIP: Yeah.

MORAN: -- who have figured out how to monetize fear, hatred, jealousy and resentment. And that's what they do.

PHILLIP: It is amplified more than anything else on these platforms --

(CROSSTALK)

UNKNOWN: And they're disgusting.

PHILLIP: -- hatred and negativity. Not debate, okay? Not conversation, not -- you know, even heated conversation can be civil, but there is a vitriol effect that people are rewarded for turning everything up that is the worst of all of us. And that's part of it. I mean, you were talking about the role that we all play in terms of the rhetoric, how we talk about each other. But we're also living in a world where we are rewarded with endorphins online every day for talking about each other in the worst possible way.

PAWLENTY: In fact, Abby, Yuval Harari has written about this exact point. I shared with Terry this --

PHILLIP: Yeah.

PAWLENTY: -- in the green room. You know, he has written about the intersection of algorithms and people's biochemistry as it relates to what triggers your emotions. And once the bio-rhythms, or excuse me, the algorithms figure out that biochemistry, and they are, they can get you to think in ways that you otherwise wouldn't think and get your emotions totally amped up.

And the other thing, to Terry's earlier point is, you know, our society is living apart, everybody's living politically like people by themselves, not everybody but most people. And also, there's fewer and fewer instances where people have different socio-economic backgrounds, different races, different what life walks, are mingling socially. And it's different here in New York, we know for obvious reasons.

But the books have been written about how the United States -- not by race, necessarily, but by socioeconomic status and by experience is living in little bubbles. And we don't see people in the other bubble as humans. We see them as some sort of distant fiction, and then we let other people fill in the blanks.

PHILLIP: Yeah.

MORAN: Absolutely. PHILLIP: Next for us, as we continue to follow the manhunt for Kirk's

assassin, all of the former presidents together tonight condemning the murder. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:52:05]

PHILLIP: Tonight, all the former presidents are speaking out on Charlie Kirk's murder and condemning political violence. Joe Biden says it "must end now". Barack Obama says it has 'no place in democracy". And George W. Bush says the open "exchange of opposing ideas on campuses is sacrosanct"." And Bill Clinton called on "serious introspection" in America's debates. And of course, all of them delivered their thoughts and prayers to his family.

Joe, I want to get your take on the reaction in MAGA world because I think it has been shock, sadness, but also a little bit of this. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX JONES, RIGHT-WING PERSONALITY: We're in a war. The left has been saying put a bull's eye on Trump, a bull's eye on his supporters.

STEVE BANNON, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF TRUMP'S 2016 CAMPAIGN: Charlie Kirk's a casualty of war. We're war in this country. We are.

JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: They are at war with us. Whether we want to accept it or not, they are at war with us. What are we going do about it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: What does that mean?

BORELLI: Well, I mean, you know, Alex Jones, I certainly can't attest or answer to, but the other two are much more mainstream in the conservative movement -- in the Republican movement. I think it means that Republicans don't want to be, you know, not be able to push back against this notion that when you, you know, you call them Nazis, you call them fascists, you call them this, that, and the other thing, I think there should be a push back against that. And I don't think that those two men want us to sit back and just say, you know, thoughts and prayers and that's it.

PHILLIP: Well, when you say war, I think people want to understand, what are they really advocating for here? And when -- and when all three of them use the word they, who are -- who is "they"?

BORELLI: They're talking on the left, but certainly, they aren't calling for, you know, some sort of armed response to this. That's not what they're doing. But they are talking about a pushback, and I think the pushback needs to happen now, because I'm sick of being called a Nazi and a fascist, and I'll keep going back to those words because they bother me. And that's that. So, if the pushback starts with me, then so be it.

MORAN: But do you think that there could be more openness on the left, on precincts of the left to actually engage in? There were no more petitions to ban speakers from campus, right? Listen to them. Defeat them in argument. You know, there is a problem, I think, of intolerance, certainly, and on both sides, on both sides, on extremes on both sides, but not even. There's a whole theory of how free speech isn't really free speech.

And I think that way lies absolute madness, not being able to listen to each other because you're canceled or you -- they don't like what you're saying, I think, is destructive of the very instrument that we need to use to get past this point.

[22:55:01]

PHILLIP: Tim, I keep hearing the word or the term "I'm being radicalized on the right" tonight. What does that bring up for you?

PAWLENTY: Well, I presume it means even more militancy, hopefully just in rhetoric and not in terms of violence in those -- coming from those voices or those parts of the movement. Those similar voices have appeared on the left over the arc of recent history, including voices from organizations like Antifa.

I will say, Abby, I watched a different cable news channel tonight for a little while, and they were playing clips of Democrats using the word war in reference to Republicans. So, it isn't just the Republicans using the war word, it's some Democrats, as well. So, if people are talking about being radicalized, maybe they mean that philosophically. I hope they don't mean that violently.

PHILLIP: All right, everyone, thank you very much for that important conversation. And thank you for watching "NewsNight". CNN's coverage of the manhunt for Charlie Kirk's assassin continues with "Laura Coates Live" right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)