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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Floats Pulling T.V. Licenses Over Negative Coverage of Him; FCC Chair Says, I Don't Think This is the Last Shoe to Drop; Source Says, ABC Wants Kimmel Back, But He Has to Lower Temperature. Jimmy Kimmel Show Pulled Off Allegedly Due To Charlie Kirk Comments. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 18, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, protests supporting Jimmy Kimmel, but a big attaboy for FCC Chair Brendan Carr.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: He's a patriot. He loves our country.
PHILLIP: Is The View next on the FCC's list? What the seismic change in the media says about the country.
Plus, fear factor, threats of consequences for negative coverage.
TRUMP: Maybe their license should be taken away.
PHILLIP: Fines levied, funds canceled and business lost. The real cost of Trump's presidency is sparing no institutions.
Also, Trump says Kimmel had it coming.
TRUMP: Jimmy Kimmel is not a talented person. They should have fired him a long time ago.
PHILLIP: Comedians say it's no laughing matter.
DAVID LETTERMAN, FORMER LATE NIGHT SHOW HOST: You can't go around firing somebody because you are fearful or trying to suck up to an authoritarian.
PHILLIP: Is the president going to have the last laugh when it comes to deciding what's funny?
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Ashley Allison, Lance Trover, Tezlyn Figaro, and W. Kamau Bell.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, free speech in America and the outrage over Jimmy Kimmel's suspension. Tonight, President Trump is escalating his attacks against the media, threatening television networks if they air negative coverage of him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They give me only bad publicity or press. I mean, they're getting a license. I would think maybe their license should be taken away. It would be up to Brendan Carr.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: By yesterday, ABC yanked Kimmel's show indefinitely after the comedian made a joke about the Republican response to Charlie Kirk's assassination.
Now, Kimmel hasn't publicly responded yet, but a source tells CNN that Disney is hopeful it can bring that show back.
Now, Trump has since taken a victory lap and doubled down on his criticism of Kimmel while dismissing concerns over free speech, which is very interesting coming from the president who promised this on his inauguration day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech to America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, what's next here? Trump says that he's leaving that up to his FCC chair, who also made it clear that the administration's work here is not done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRENDAN CARR, FCC CHAIRMAN: President Trump has fundamentally changed the direction of this country. And one of the ways that he's done that is he's run directly at these legacy mainstream broadcasters and he's smashed the facade that they get to control what we get to say and what we get to think.
Yes, I don't think this is the last shoe to drop. This is a massive shift that's taking place in the media ecosystem, and I think the consequences are going to continue to flow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is W. Kamau Bell, who is stopping in the middle of his tour, who's with me. So, make be sure to check that out.
I want to start on what he just said there at the end, though. Trump is changing the country in the sense that media companies no longer get to decide what voices they air, who they talk to. Is that really what they're trying to say here, that the president gets to decide that now?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I actually talked to Brendan Carr today too for about 20 minutes. He brought up a similar concept, but it was in the framework of these local affiliates who have to live by these public interest rules finally getting a chance to push back against the networks, the programmers. It was his view that, for too long, the programmers, the networks had too much power over these affiliates and had basically been able to boss them around. So, he viewed this whole episode as a situation where these networks are finally saying, look, we have to live by these rules. We have to live under the public interest rules. We don't, you know, particularly like to air this. We're the ones hearing about it from our viewers and from our advertisers, and we're finally pushing back on it.
[22:05:03]
PHILLIP: So, you're saying that he -- well, we have the clip, and I'll play it in a minute, but he's suggesting that this is all just spontaneous, that this is just, you know, coming from the ground up. He had nothing to do with it. Trump had nothing to do with it.
W. KAMAU BELL, COMEDIAN AND FILMMAKER: Was it spontaneous when Colbert was --
PHILLIP: I just think it's hard to believe given the facts of the situation that we know happened.
BELL: Yes, I don't know how we could think it's spontaneous. And if the affiliates are upset with what Jimmy Kimmel's saying, I don't think that leads to Jimmy Kimmel's suspension. I don't think that's how that is supposed to go down. We're still -- I believe we're still in America. I believe we still have this First Amendment thing we're talking about. I believe comedy's covered in the First Amendment. I don't -- the affiliates can be upset. They've been upset that things other comedians have done. It hasn't led to that comedian being suspended.
JENNINGS: Well, I think what he was saying that they're upset about is that all of their viewers are complaining and all of their advertisers are complaining.
BELL: All?
JENNINGS: And their -- well, all the few that Jimmy Kimmel has. And they're getting all these complaints. They're not making any money on it. They're facing enormous financial pressures.
PHILLIP: They're not making any money on what?
JENNINGS: Selling advertising. Nobody wants to buy advertising on their show.
PHILLIP: But these late night shows --
BELL: Nobody? You say all and nobody --
JENNINGS: I'm in this business. I'm going to tell you right now, that's where they give away the freebies at night. Trust me.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Scott. They're making millions of dollars.
Let me just play, because I said I would play this. This is what he told you when you asked him whether he felt like he had a role in all of this. Let me just play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNINGS: Do you feel personally responsible for his suspension? And I'll throw it on -- throw this on there as well. Should ABC make it permanent? Should they go ahead and fire him? Or is there a way that Kimmel stays on T.V., in your mind?
CARR: Well, first of all, nobody went on a podcast and made federal policy.
President Trump has created a permission structure for corporations and for the market itself to start to rationalize.
So, people probably feel comforted to say it was a grand conspiracy, this happened and that happened, and, frankly, barking up the wrong tree. They're missing the broader dynamics that are taking place in the media ecosystem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Oh? I mean, he made it pretty clear. You can do this the easy way or the hard way. You can have -- you can either do it yourself or I can get involved.
So, I thought it was surprising that he didn't take any responsibility for that and perhaps it's because there's a clear legal standard here that he would violate if he had, in fact, pressured them as he seemed to have done publicly.
JENNINGS: Well, I asked him several different ways if he thought he was responsible for it or, you know, how he thought it went down. He has a clear point of view here, which is that these groups that own these affiliates, and I think the two companies are Nexstar and Sinclair, they own over 60 affiliates, that they, independent of anything he was doing, had made a decision that it was no longer in their best interest to have Jimmy Kimmel on the air.
BELL: Wait, they suspended Jimmy Kimmel?
JENNINGS: Well, they told the network that they would not air it. So, when you think --
BELL: How does that lead to Kimmel's suspension though?
JENNINGS: When you take 60 television stations that won't air something, the network has to make a decision.
PHILLIP: I guess my point is that I don't think that it's credible for him to say, I had nothing to do with it. He had something to do with it.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think I'm faithful in the American people in this moment that they will be able to see the things that are playing out and call a spade a spade. I have this thing in my friend crew, we call ten toes down. Say it with your chest. Do what you say what you mean, and do what you mean.
And if you don't like what Jimmy Kimmel's saying, say you don't like what Jimmy Kimmel's saying, say you don't want them on the air and then own it. Don't do something and then like throw a rock and hide your hands. And I feel like that's what's happening.
And I do think there are a lot of companies in this moment with this administration, elections have consequences, acutely aware of that. I think there are a lot of corporations in this moment that have made decisions to get better aligned with the Trump administration.
Some of those corporations are facing the consequences of this. We will see if ABC will also. It will be the viewers. I know you said all, I know you said all, but it's not all. We know it's not all many, because I know people who watch it. I know people who watch --
(CROSSTALKS)
ALLISON: Well, we'll see.
BELL: Not all. It's somewhere between all, ain't many.
ALLISON: We'll see.
BELL: Once you get the facts.
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Let's just be realistic. How is this not a straight up business decision that they made? I mean, this is a guy who I admit used to be funny at one point in time, but at some point he sold out to the woke Hollywood left and decided to become a political activist on his show. Go back through all of his monologues over the last year, and you can see it is a constant anti- Trump monologue. Then he goes out and does what he does there.
ALLISON: Maybe he just believed it.
TROVER: Perhaps he did, but that doesn't mean people need to watch it. He was the lowest rated of the nighttime shows. My guess is ABC's been looking to make a move on him the way the CBS was with Colbert. He cracked the door open.
PHILLIP: I know that that's not what most of the reporting that's out there says about the relationship between him and ABC. But here's the right-leaning outlet, the Free Press.
[22:10:01] Here's what they wrote today. This is what's known as jawbowning, when state actors use threats to inappropriately compel private action. That's an awfully nice broadcasting license you have there, Bob Iger. Shame if anything happens to it because of your Jimmy Kimmel problem. And when the network drops a high profile talent hours after the FCC chairman makes a barely veiled threat, then it's no longer just a business decision. It is government coercion.
TROVER: Well, first of all, nothing's happened. There was a comment that was made on a podcast.
PHILLIP: What? I thought you just said something did happen. I thought he was taken off the air.
TROVER: I'm saying -- no. You're talking about -- I'm talking about the FCC. There's been no policy action that was taken. There was a comment made on --
PHILLIP: Okay, a barely veiled threat that resulted in the action that they were seeking. It doesn't need to have happened.
ALLISON: I always like to change characters in the story. Let's -- I like to change character in the story to see if I would hold the stain. When I was studying law, I was like, if this person was the villain and this person was the victim, what would I do? If this was Joe Biden and it was Joe Biden's FCC chair, and it was fill in the blank of someone that you said, not my words, you said Jimmy Kimmel --
BELL: The Great Gutfeld Show.
ALLISON: Okay.
BELL: Yes.
ALLISON: What would happen? People would be in outrage.
And so I'm just -- all I'm saying is, it's not a matter of, I never watched Jimmy Kimmel's show, so I'm not -- like it's not --
TROVER: Nobody else did.
ALLISON: But what I'm saying is there will be a time when Donald Trump won't, and I know what you're about to say, Joe Biden, and I didn't agree with that when Joe Biden was trying to censor different platforms, I think we should have regulations, and, you know, but --
JENNINGS: I have a legit question, but finish.
ALLISON: Go ahead. Ask me the question.
JENNINGS: I just think, I think we're missing the affiliates in this conversation. They are an important part of this.
PHILLIP: I don't think we're missing the affiliate at all.
JENNINGS: Broadcast television works different than cable, so Gutfeld is not a one for one, but, number two, these television station owners, they have these local stations that facing enormous pressures. They have a role in this, whether we like it or not.
ALLISON: So, what happens --
TEZLYN FIGARO, HOST, STRAIGHT SHOT, NO CHASER, BLACK EFFECT PODCAST NETWORK: Where's the pressure coming from though?
JENNINGS: From the affiliates to the network.
FIGARO: Let's be honest, Scott. I'm disappointed.
JENNINGS: You had two -- you had 60 stations in total that were saying they wouldn't put it on the air.
FIGARO: Yes, I'm used to you and Republicans standing in it. Let's stand in it. Let's stand in it and own it. Donald Trump said that I will be your retribution. Are you confused? You're looking like you're confused. I'm going to help you.
BELL: That's a confused face. He's doing it. He's doing it. He's doing it again.
JENNINGS: I don't know where you're going, but I'm listening.
FIGARO: Buckle up. We're getting ready to go there. Donald Trump said, I will be your retribution and I will use every resource possible, including the FCC. This is the get-back. And I'm not mad about it. When we went through the what you all call the woke era and the George Floyd era and people were getting canceled and people were getting taken off the air, now this is about the get-back.
And so what I would say is that Democrat -- and, by the way, I'm an independent, just so we're clear, that if Democrats want to do something about it, then this, then they have an opportunity to lead. They have an opportunity to put people in place. They have an opportunity to appoint their own FCC. They have an opportunity to get people on the bench to win the midterm, but we're not going to sit around here and play like this is just some big conspiracy. It's quite clear. Donald Trump has made it quite clear, you go against me, I'm coming for everybody.
And guess what? I'm okay with it. I'm not going to cry about it with you. I'm not going to sit up and be in my tears. I'm a whole veteran, baby. So, at the end of the day, yes, come on in the foxhole and get comfortable. I am about what it is. And so just own it. Yes, just own it, Scott.
JENNINGS: I don't understand about 75 percent of what just happened. However --
FIGARO: You don't? I can repeat that now.
JENNINGS: However, you did say one thing that I agree with and that is you brought up Democrats, but it's not just Democrats. One thing Brendan Carr told me today, and it is true that the current regulatory regime, as it exists, is set up by the United States Congress, 1934 Communications Act. And he said, we're going to enforce that regime as it stands. And he said, if they want to change it, if they want to make different rules, if they want to change the way these systems operate or the regulatory thing works, we'll abide by that.
But right now, in his view, Congress has set up a system, they're enforcing that system, and until Congress changes it, that'll be what they do.
PHILLIP: Scott, I have to say that is incredibly convenient spin on Brendan Carr's part. Because one of the key parts of this is that it's not to say that the FCC doesn't have a regulatory role here. It's what is the end of the regulatory role. And if the end of the regulatory role is to coerce speech, that's a problem.
How do I know that? A very similar case came in terms of the broad strokes of the issue came before the Supreme Court a year ago involving the NRA. And the Supreme Court unilaterally said that New York regulators could not even use the threat of regulation, the threat of regulation, to coerce the NRA to act in a certain way and impact their speech.
Here's what the opinion read. Government officials cannot attempt to coerce private parties in order to punish or suppress views the government disfavors.
[22:15:00]
Now, if Brendan Carr wants to regulate in an even-handed fashion, in a non-ideological fashion, maybe that might be okay. But what he is trying to do is suppress speech that he doesn't like. And it's actually pretty clear that that would be illegal.
But the problem is that what happens if you're a company, if you're a Nexstar and you want to make a deal and you can't wait for this to go through the courts, what do you do? Well, you do what that affiliate did. You said, I was losing the affiliates in this. I'm not losing them. They have a business decision to make. What do you do if you're Nexstar? Well, you do what Brendan Carr wants you to do. So, the affiliates are under the same pressure.
Now, right-leaning, they may be, but they are under the same regulatory pressure that I think Brendan Carr is aware might very well be illegal. That's why he's kind of backtracking from it.
JENNINGS: Well, I actually asked him today if he thought what he said was tantamount to coercion. He totally rejected that. I did read in The Wall Street Journal tonight that Nexstar said they made their decision without having had any conversations, whatsoever, with the government or the FCC.
PHILLIP: That's the nice thing about the public statement.
(CROSSTALKS)
ALLISON: Who admits to coercion, Scott? FIGARO: And you don't have to. You don't have to because Donald Trump already said prior to being elected that anybody that does not get in line will face the consequences. So, the conversation didn't need to be had, it was understood.
PHILLIP: More ahead. We're going to pause here. I want to continue the conversation and look at how this all fits into the big picture here. How the Trump administration has used the Oval Office to make threats to and to make changes.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, how long can ruling by fear be effective? It isn't just part of Trump's leadership strategy. It appears to be the feature. Just this week, Trump filed a defamation lawsuit against The New York Times that experts say is meritless. His threats against ABC News and Paramount earlier this year led to multimillion dollar settlements from each. Universities have been major Trump targets, while some like Harvard have fought back. Others, like Columbia, have agreed to pay a $200 million fine to settle allegations that it didn't do enough to protect Jewish students from anti-Semitism on campus.
Now, Trump has also gone after law firms that he deemed as dishonest and against the interest of America. And you heard the FCC chairman say that the president changed the country to remove power from broadcasters, and here's what he says is happening next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARR: Our goal and our obligation here is to make sure that broadcasters are serving the public interest. And if there's local T.V. stations that don't think that running that programming does it, then they have every right under the law in their contracts to preemptive and we'll see how this plays out.
But I do think that, again, we are in the midst of a massive shift in dynamics in the media ecosystem for lots of reasons, again, including the permission structure that President Trump's election has provided. And I would simply say we're not done yet with seeing the consequences of that shift.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: We're not done yet. That's the most important thing really to take away from all of this.
And Tezlyn, you were just talking and describing this as sort of, you know, a kind of power play, a normal power play, but to me it's what's striking is that this is not just any power play. This is about the First Amendment, perhaps the most important constitutional right that we have. And what happens when a power play erodes that to a point where it's no longer valid? I mean, do you think that there's a way to come back from that once it's gone?
FIGARO: Well, there's a way if you have true leadership. You know Abby, I'm more concerned about what is Jimmy going to do in this moment? What are leaders going to do in this moment? Are you willing to risk it all? Are you willing to be canceled? Are you willing? A lot of people say, well, I like people to play chess instead of checkers. I'm about to checkers. Let's be real clear about where you stand. This is a moment for people in America who maybe have done this at a convenience, I call it the consequences of consciousness. What consequence are you willing to face for what you believe in? Let's go ahead and go through the purge, Abby. Let's be okay with it if you're willing to be canceled --
PHILLIP: Do you think other people should -- standing with Jimmy Kimmel, I guess maybe some of these other comedians that we're hearing from, we'll talk more about that later in the show, but I mean, is that what you're suggesting that they should be putting themselves on the line?
FIGARO: I'm suggesting that whoever is about, the leadership is going to expose itself.
Many people say, you know, a lot of people say, well, I got mouths to feed, so I can't -- you know, I can only go so far. I tell people, find the person that's willing to starve then. It is time for people to actually know what leadership looks like.
And this is going to happen on the Democrat and Republican side. Let's see who is willing to fold. Let's see who's willing to stand. Is Jimmy going to fold or is he willing to say, I'm willing to risk it all? If that means that I have to work at Kroger, if that means I have to be a Uber driver, whatever it takes, in order to stand.
So, I am interested in seeing what the leadership looks like because I think it's been far too convenient. That goes for comedians, that goes for ABC, BET, Do, Re, Mi, FCC. Let's expose who is really about leadership --
PHILLIP: Let me play what J.B. Pritzker said about all of this coming from Trump. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. J.B. PRITKZER (D-IL): We see it in authoritarian regimes when things just happen, you know, there's a whole cadre of people who just step back, sit back, they're bystanders, they don't do anything about it. Because they're hoping if they duck and keep their head low, nothing will happen to them. Well, eventually, something happens to them.
It's the playbook. You know, read on tyranny, read so many books about how authoritarian regimes come about.
[22:25:01]
That is what Donald Trump's trying to effectuate here. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Let me add onto that, Lance. This is from a former Russian dissident, a pro-democracy activist, Kasparov, and he wrote, freedom is often lost under mountains of paperwork and crippling fines rather than a cinematic showdown with a dictator. Many of the Russian government's targets were never actually arrested or charged with any specific offense. Many more were never targeted at all. A few high- profile people got shaken down and everyone else got the message.
And before you say it, he's talking about Putin when he talks about a dictator, okay? But what he is saying is that you have to understand that this is not going to look like some dramatic thing of tanks running down the street, that it's actually going to be the one guy that maybe everybody agrees is not so funny, but then everybody else just stops doing the thing that the regime wants them to do.
TROVER: Donald Trump, the authoritarian, I haven't heard that in like the last five minutes or ten years from every Democratic --
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, well, engage with it. I mean, I'm curious like actually engage with the idea. When people say that, not hard, hard left wing Democrats, but somebody who literally came from Russia, what does it say to you?
TROVER: What does it say to me? It's the same talking point I've heard for ten years about Donald Trump. You guys act like it's the end of the republic that this guy got fired last night. That was clearly a business decision.
BELL: No, this is not the end of it. We're talking --
TROVER: Yes. Everybody here is talking about this.
BELL: Everybody, all, everybody.
TROVER: No. I'm saying every Democrat out there is acting -- but here's what -- actually let's talk about the position of conservatives and how they view some of the stuff you talked about. Because in the world of conservatism, conservatives have dealt with a media that has been controlled by a select few people. And I think this is why the left is spiraling because they're losing control of the media that they have controlled, telling people what they should think --
PHILLIP: But is it controlled --
TROVER: -- what they want to cover, who they want to talk to when they're covered.
PHILLIP: But is it controlled by the government land?
TROVER: No, I'm saying that there is a --
PHILLIP: That's what's my point. I get your complaint about bias in the media. I'm not discounting that. I think the fundamental question that is way above that, that's more important than that is what is the role of government? At the end of the day, partisans can disagree, but the whole principle of this democracy is based on what's the role of the government and what's the role of the people. What's the role of the government when it comes to the --
TROVER: Exactly. You mentioned the universities. Let's talk -- you take hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars, then you are -- the government has every bit of a let right to stand and say, you're being anti-Semitic, violating Title IX.
PHILLIP: Let's talk the media, because that's what we're talking about.
TROVER: Yes. I'm happy to talk about the media. If you are --
PHILLIP: What is the role -- I really want to understand. What do you think is the role of the government in shaping the media shaping coverage, shaping who gets to tell stories, shaping whether it's partisan or not? What is the role of the government?
TROVER: I think if the media presented a balanced role, which they have not over the last 30 years, and the government may not have to step in, but I do think there is a role to say, hey, you are not being balanced in your coverage. Jimmy Kimmel went on and espoused and lied to the public the other night. That's a fact. That's what he did.
And, by the way, the Wall Street Journal's reported the night, he wasn't even going to apologize for it. He was the one who make it worse. He was going to blame MAGA.
ALLISON: I hear that's why a lot, I hear this a lot, that the media is controlled by the right or the left. I think the media is controlled by money, quite honestly, because it's a business decision, right?
JENNINGS: Oh, it is?
ALLISON: I'm using your words, I'm using your words. That was a late night joke. But if that's the case, if the media was really controlled by how do you get a Donald Trump elected? How do you win the House and the Senate? How do you have Republican governors? Because democracy can still work. So, it's not about--
TROVER: Because the American public is so sick and tired of it, they stood up and said, we're tired of this three (INAUDIBLE) --
ALLISON: Yes. So, what's the problem? So, I mean, I'm like you're making my point,
TROVER: I'm not crying about anything.
ALLISON: But what I'm saying is like the mediums in which they received information, watch debates, we're all on T.V. We're all on these media networks that were controlled by woke folks, and yet you still won. So, are we really controlling it?
TROVER: No. I'm totally not getting what you're saying. I'm saying, for 30 years, I'm not surprised, at least from the conservative movement, there is a select few group of people in ivory towers in Washington, D.C., who tell people, these are the stories we're going to cover, these are the people we going to talk to and we're going to tell them --
ALLISON: I know. And I'm saying to you -- what I'm saying you now is what you're saying in this moment, and what you're saying in this moment is a square box argument that conservatives use. And I will also say what you said a few minutes ago is a square box of what people say Democrats use, that this is the end of the republic. What is it? Like I just -- I'm really trying to get clear on it. You're saying that media is controlled by leftists, but you all literally have all the power. You have the Supreme Court, you have the White House, you have the Senate, you have the Congress. You're redistricting lines. How do we control it?
PHILLIP: Can I argue that conservatives have a majority of the media right now?
[22:30:00]
ALLISON: Sinclair is pretty conservative, in my opinion.
PHILLIP: When you look at the top YouTube, Facebook, podcasts, mostly conservative. I mean, listen. Scott, I'm just giving you your flowers here.
UNKNOWN: But they got it all. The House, the Senate.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, no.
PHILLIP: I'm just saying --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: This is a very conservative-dominated media --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- that we are in right now.
JENNINGS: I have -- I have a -- I would quibble with that. But I will give you a short technical answer to your question about the role of the government. It's different for the Kimmel ABC network affiliate situation than it is for cable. That's number one. And the reason is because there is a law. The Communications Act of 1934, this public interest thing, and the Supreme Court has held that Congress and the FCC have a role in regulating this. And so, until they change that there will be an ongoing role --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I am not -- I am not -- hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Listen.
JENNINGS: It does because they own the network affiliates and the network affiliates have to follow the law. They're the ones with FCC license.
PHILLIP: We have more to continue but I'm not disputing. The FCC exists. It's been problematic for a long time. They have a regulatory role. But the question is when that regulatory role is about curtailing speech, that's when we have some bigger fish to fry as a country. And I think that's fundamentally what the conversation is about.
And listen, it's conservatives who have been fighting for that, okay, for a long time. That's why you're seeing pushback from lot of conservatives who say, FCC chairman Brendan Carr should have stayed out of this and let it be a business decision, but he didn't do that. And now, the consequences are, we're going to -- we're going to talk about it because it's out in the open what the objective is.
And okay, more ahead. Because the other part of this is about comedy and where does it stand in this moment? I mean, what is the future of comedy? We of course have a comedian who is on tour right now. We're going to ask him. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:36:31]
PHILLIP: Jimmy Kimmel's ejection is raising questions about the state of comedy in Trump's America. Recently canceled, Stephen Colbert came to Kimmel's defense just tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": Now, this may seem bad, but Carr was quick to reassure everyone, posting, "While this may be an unprecedented decision, it is important for broadcasters to push back on Disney programming that they determine falls short of community values." Well, you know what my community values are, buster? Freedom of speech.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And late night legend David Letterman defended Kimmel and Colbert today. He also had a blunt message for the Trump administration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LETTERMAN, "THE LATE NIGHT SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN" FORMER HOST: My good friend Jimmy Kimmel, you know, I just -- I feel bad about this because we all see where this is going, correct? It's managed media. And it's no good. It's silly. It's ridiculous. And you can't go around firing somebody because you're fearful or trying to suck up to an authoritarian criminal administration in the Oval Office. That's just not how this works.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, look, for a comedian, it actually feels like really up until this point, a lot of the cancellation has been on the left. Like, people on the left canceling comedians -- Dave Chappelle for various reasons. Now, it's happening on the --
(CROSSTALK)
W. KAMAU BELL, COMEDIAN AND FILMMAKER: He has so much money. He has so much money.
PHILLIP: I'm just saying -- I just -- famous -- a famous example. They all have a lot of money. They all have a lot of money.
JENNINGS: They get in trouble though.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: They all have a lot of money, but now we're experiencing comedy being squeezed between these forces. I mean, what is left?
BELL: What is left? I mean what is left for comedians to do our jobs whether we fear the consequences or not. And you know, the whole modern era of stand-up comedy was built on the fact that -- that was invented in America by the way. America invented stand-up comedy. It's because we were a country that had free speech. And because we have free speech, the arts are allowed to do what they want to do, the artists are allowed to say what they want to say, and we've all enjoyed it for years and years.
But the minute you tell Jimmy Kimmel and you show all the comedians that he said this thing, we don't like that thing, he's now suspended, you're actually, it's daring comedians to self-censor themselves before they say something. And that's not where you get the good comedy everybody. That's not where you get the good opinions when people -- and that's what I think this is about. This is about forcing comedians to think twice before they say something that might offend the president or somebody who's representing the president.
And comedians, there's an open letter going right now of comedians signing it saying, we stand with Kimmel, but really we stand with the First Amendment, which I thought was what we were supposed to do in America was stand with the First Amendment.
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Do you agree with what he said though? Do you agree that what he said wasn't inaccurate and a lie? I mean, everybody knew, everybody, no, no. I'm -- serious question.
BELL: I'm trying, I was about to use my mouth to answer it.
TROVER: No. The governor of Utah -- you could have gone, the day before had said this guy was indoctrinated by the left. He went out and said --
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: But he did that based on vibes. He did not have any evidence of that.
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: We go down on this road, again, Sir? So, you're going to --
(CROSSTALK)
TEZLYN FIGARO, "STRAIGHT SHOT, NO CHASER" ON BLACK EFFECT PODCAST NETWORK" HOST: Yeah. We'll wait on the evidence.
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: You're not answering my question. I'm serious.
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: Do you think what he said, you agree that was inaccurate. It is a lie.
BELL: I think first of all, I think judging comedians about what they say is true or not is actually not understanding the job of the comedian. The job of the comedian is to tell a joke and make a point. And if you judge comedians about accuracy of their statements, comedy ceases to exist. He's not a reporter, he's not Abby, he's not a journalist, he's stand-up comedian who's telling a joke to make a point for his audience that got a big response.
[22:40:06]
ALLISON: Do we think we should hold comedians to the standard of truth? Do you think we should hold politicians to the standards?
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I know. I don't think -- I don't --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, that's actually -- that's a real interesting -- Ashley, that's a super interesting question. If the standard is you go on broadcast television, you start telling some lies, then the FCC can punish the company that allowed you to tell those lies. I mean, you're really ready for that?
BELL: I got a Trump file of lies. Can I --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Listen. Seriously, that's a really important question. Like, are we -- are you going to go down that road where if a politician named Donald Trump goes on, you know, ABC News and starts telling lies? And then ABC News can get regulated and punished for airing those lies. And what are we doing?
ALLISON: Or not even a politician. A commentator.
JENNINGS: No one's being -- by the way, these are bona fide news programs. They get exceptions. That's why Stephen Colbert's allowed to have on, I guess, you know, 200 Democrats and zero Republicans. And so, the actual late night shows --
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: Two hundred Democrats? Where do you these numbers from? Could I --
JENNINGS: The news.
BELL: The news? The news?
UNKNOWN: The said the news are the lies, so --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: So, so, when you get these exceptions, you're actually allowed to --
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: So, he just lied. He just lied. You just lied.
PHILLIP: Well, hold on.
JENNINGS: I'm not lying.
BELL: You said 200 and zero -- is it the truth?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I don't know. It could --
JENNINGS: I mean, I could look it up for you.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Okay.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I don't know if it's 200 or not but --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: -- what I actually think happened is --
JENNINGS: I'll look it up for you.
ALLISON: -- an attempt to have, and I fundamentally believe. And I think it's working in some instances. It's not just actually the silenced comedians, because actually comedians is the last stop, right? Comedy was supposed to be the last thing that, you know, there's a little truth in every joke, right? But there's also some funniness to it. It is, it's to stifle journalists. It's to stifle people like me who come on and give opinions that people don't agree. And to honestly stifle potentially people like you in a moment when Republicans don't have power.
And so, I actually do not think this is a partisan conversation. I actually think people should pay attention because the First Amendment applies to everyone. And as someone who grew up in a town where the KKK marched every year, I didn't like the KKK.
The KKK surely didn't like me, but they got to do it because that is America. And in a country where we limit free speech and we say the KKK shouldn't be able to march in the streets, then that is the First Amendment that we do not live in America anymore. And that is a danger.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Since I was called a liar --
BELL: I didn't call you a liar, I said you lied.
JENNINGS: You called me a liar. So, according to this article, July 26, 2025, since 2022, I stand somewhat corrected. Colbert posted --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Colbert posted 176 left-leaning guest and only one Republican on the soon to be canceled late show.
FIGARO: Well, I'm in law school. I like sources. Now, who is the source that you wrote? Because you know they be lying, too.
JENNINGS: The source of this is --
FIGARO: Remember you said the left runs all the media.
JENNINGS: A source -- this is a story in "The New York Post".
(CROSSTALK)
FIGARO: So, we can go with that. We reject. Motion denied.
PHILLIP: Let me play -- let me play --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me play for you -- hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK) JENNINGS: So, just to be clear, you call people a liar, I give you a new source and you continue to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
FIGARO: But you also said the news source could be lying.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. I'm going to take the fact-check on that issue and we're going to leave it be just for now. But I want to replay --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: No, wait, children. As a former teacher -- wait. Can I just say as a former teacher, 176 is not the same as 200.
FIGARO: That's right, Scott.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: That math don't work.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We're going to let that go because this is irrelevant to the conversation. I want to play what a Trump supporter -- a Trump supporter and a former co-host of Comedy Central's "The Man Show", which Scott Jennings was maligning yesterday --
JENNINGS: It was terrible.
PHILLIP: Adam Carolla -- hey, I didn't watch it, but I've heard it was terrible.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: This is what Adam Carolla had to say about Jimmy Kimmel who was on the other side of the aisle from him, okay? They're on opposite ends of the political spectrum but here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADAM CAROLLA, COMEDIAN: My feeling is this. I don't -- I don't think he should have been fired. It's a weird thing. The right and the left are sort of misinterpreting things. He was inaccurate about something. It wasn't like he was necessarily attacking Charlie Kirk. He was trying to dump it on Trump and inaccurate about it. And I don't like the government getting involved. And I've heard every side of the story. And in general, I just want people to speak and then the ratings will do the talking and you can support them or not support them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Let the ratings tank is a decent argument.
[22:40:00]
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: That's my argument from the beginning.
PHILLIP: I know, but I get it. I think that's a totally legitimate argument -- if that's in fact what you were saying. But you can't ignore that that's not what happened here.
UNKNOWN: That is exactly what --
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: And you can't ignore that Trump also didn't go out and say we need to also cancel Seth Meyer and also Jimmy Fallon.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That's not at all what happened here.
ALLISON: Yeah.
BELL: This is about an enemies list. This is not about him worried about the ratings of these networks.
ALLISON: In law school you have a fact pattern and the omission of the fact that the FCC chair said you can do it hard or you can do it, that is an essential fact in this fact pattern. You can't -- you can't disregard it. I'm not saying it would be a determinative factor what the jury would decide, but you would not omit if you were prosecuting the case.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Another thing, I mean, you know, there was some person who was sending messages to me on X about this. Back when Tony Hinchcliffe was in Madison Square Garden calling Puerto Rico a floating pile of trash, people were offended by that.
BELL: Was that the truth?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We were offended by that. A lot of people were offended by that. They said so. And you know what the vice president said at the time? "Maybe it's a stupid racist joke. Maybe it's not. I'm not going to comment on the specifics of the joke. I think that we have to stop getting offended by every little thing in the United States of America." Is that still true?
JENNINGS: Well, whether people are offended by what Kimmel did or not, to me is secondary, A, to the business case and B, to the legal statutory regime. And I'll just ask you guys, if you all agree that this law exists and there is a public interest rule, is it in the public interest for a-- something that has a bona fide new show designation to have on, 176 Democrats and one Republican over a three year period?
I think there are legitimate statutory reasons why people -- these network affiliates were beginning to push back because the shows had gotten imbalanced, the viewers were not happy, and neither were the advertisers.
FIGARO: Well, I can answer that, I do Fox News. So, I do about 60, 70 times a year Fox News. Let's talk about the imbalance on Fox News. I'm probably one of the few --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Again, a cable channel, not the same as a broadcast channel.
(CROSSTALK)
FIGARO: Well, I don't know but I just want to answer about balance. And I do want to point this out, if I just have a minute about inaccuracies.
PHILLIP: Very quickly.
FIGARO: I will absolutely say that if he was inaccurate about it, let's be clear, he should be accurate. The same way the right should be accurate, like you guys were totally inaccurate about George Floyd, who by the way has the same birthday as Charlie Kirk, in case you didn't know, they were born on the same day, October 14th. You're looking confused again, Scott. Let me --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We have to leave it there.
FIGARO: The point is I'm okay with fact-checking --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Coming up next, former Vice President Kamala Harris says in her new book that she could have picked Pete Buttigieg as her running mate if only he were a straight white man. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:52:25]
PHILLIP: New revelations tonight from Kamala Harris in her upcoming memoir. The former V.P. says that she considered then Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg as her running mate, but she had some reservations. She writes that Buttigieg, quote, "would have been an ideal partner if I were a straight white man. But we were already asking a lot of America to accept a black woman and a black woman married to a Jewish man. And part of me wanted to say, screw it, let's just do it. But knowing what was at stake, it was too big of a risk."
PHILLIP: Pete Buttigieg tonight responding, saying, my experience in politics has been that the way that you earn trust with voters is mostly based on what they think you're going to do for their lives, not on categories. He says he was surprised to hear the vice president wrote about this in her book.
FIGARO: Where's the camera at? If you don't knock it off -- if you don't knock it off, America was not going to vote. I said this and it's not about V.P. Harris being most qualified. It's not that she did not have the record. There was no way that V.P. Harris was going to win a race in 100 days. There was no way that this country that has not elected a black woman as governor was going to put her in position. It was a set-up right out the gate and there was no way that Pete, Mayor Pete, was also going to be on that ticket.
So, this is self-serving for him to say and I'm here to tell him to knock it off. They set up V.P. Harris, they would have rather voted for Joe Biden on a gurney, on a stretcher with an IV, half dead before they would have voted for V.P. Harris. That's just the fact and not because of her resume.
PHILLIP: Okay. Lance?
TROVER: When's your comedy tour?
(LAUGHTER)
TROVER: I can't follow that. I can't follow that.
PHILLIP: Quickly now. Tell me what conservatives would have done if Pete Buttigieg had been on the ticket. What would they have done?
BELL: Who? Who? Can I answer that one?
TROVER: I don't know why we talking about her. She is just doing -- she needs to do some introspection and really think about it rather than writing books and casting all the blame. She was a terrible candidate. Bottom line, think we agree with that.
FIGARO: No, we don't agree with it. I was agreeing that she was set up. I never said she was a terrible candidate.
JENNINGS: I'm somewhat surprised to hear the standard bearer of the Democratic Party openly admitting to actual discrimination against gay people.
FIGARO: No, we're not admitting that. They're only admitting that you was a white man. Yeah. But no.
JENNINGS: That she thought that picking a gay running mate was somehow going to make it worse when she had already endorsed public funding for transgender surgeries. (CROSSTALK)
FIGARO: But she knew you'd never vote for it, Scott.
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: -- transgender surgeries. Are those the same?
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Because she already had positions --
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: Is gay man and transgender surgery the same?
ALLISON: That would have been the campaign area.
BELL: You just connected gay man and transgender surgery.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That is an honest assessment of what -- where it would have gone.
[22:55:02]
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
PHILLIP: It would have gone straight from gay man to --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: She had already crossed the Rubicon on issues that would have angered a socially conservative constituency.
PHILLIP: All right.
JENNINGS: Pete Buttigieg was not going to make it.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: The reality is -- the reality is --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We do have to go.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: The reality is --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: It's a business decision, my friends. We've got to go. Everyone, thank you very much. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:05]
PHILLIP: Before we go, a quick programming note. Sara Sidner meets the black and white sides of an old fashioned southern family united by a dark secret. See what happened on "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper", Sunday night at 10 o'clock on CNN.
And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
