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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Says, Negative Coverage Of Me Is Illegal; Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) Blasts Trump's Politicization Of FCC, Dangerous as Hell; Cardinal Dolan Calls Charlie Kirk A Modern-Day Saint Paul; "NewsNight" Talks About The Charlie Kirk Assassination; Top Prosecutor Appointed By Trump Quits. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 19, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, the war over free speech turns to companies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At some point, you got to stand for something.
PHILLIP: And forces the right to rethink the canceling of Kimmel.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): But when it is used to silence every conservative in America, we will regret it.
PHILLIP: Plus a tug of war over the legacy of Charlie Kirk.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ: His rhetoric and beliefs were ignorant, uneducated and sought to disenfranchise millions of Americans.
TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: This guy's a modern-day St. Paul. He's a hero.
PHILLIP: How one man's uniter is another's divider.
Also, can't find the crime, do the time. The president wants to fire the prosecutor who doesn't have evidence against a nemesis.
Live at the table, Arthur Aidala, Cari Champion, Abel Maldonado and Terry Moran.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I'm Abby Phillip in New York for a special edition of NewsNight. We are back in the test kitchen of the Food Network, our sister company. We have, as usual, a fabulous chef serving our friends of the show, and we'll catch up with her a little bit later on.
But first, well, the First Amendment had a good run. Donald Trump says excessive criticism and negative coverage of him is now illegal and no longer free speech. Those are actually real quotes. I'll play it for you. The president tonight is escalating his blatant attack on freedom of speech, responding to Jimmy Kimmel's suspension after the government's blatant threats against ABC.
Now, remember, Trump has spent nine months silencing, threatening, punishing companies, networks, newspapers, universities, law firms, museums, and protesters, and now he's expanding his definition of what's not allowed to be said or read.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They will take a great story and they'll make it bad. See, I think that's really illegal, personally. You can't take -- you can't have a free airwaves, you're getting free airwaves from the United States government.
When somebody is given 97 percent of the stories are bad about a person, that's no longer free speech. That's no longer -- that's just cheating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That's so wildly against the Constitution that even Senator Ted Cruz is sounding the alarm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: But what he said there is dangerous as hell.
If the government gets in the business of saying --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you can and can't say.
CRUZ: -- we don't what you, the media, have said, we are going to ban you from the airwaves if you don't say what we like. That will end up bad for conservatives.
There will come a time when a Democrat wins again, wins the White House --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will get rid of every talk shows --
CRUZ: -- the next Democrat FCC --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- that's a conservative. They'll get rid of every podcast. They'll get rid of everybody on YouTube.
CRUS: -- they will silence us. They will use this power and they will use it ruthlessly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: We've spent a lot of time talking about Brendan Carr, but I want to spend a moment on Donald Trump, because, after all, he is the president of these United States. He's supposed to be protecting and defending the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, and yet he seems to either not care what the Constitution says about this or he doesn't like it. I'm not sure which it is, but I don't know. A ninth grader knows better than what he said today.
TERRY MORAN, VETERAN JOURNALIST: Right. But this is Trump at full throttle, right? The first term, he didn't expect to win. He wasn't prepared. Now, he's got a plan. They're executing on it, and he's intoxicated with the power. And like every petty tyrant or despot who's ever lived, they get that power and they feel great. They feel like anything I say is the law. But I think he's overreached here. Ted Cruz and most Americans don't want to give up freedom of speech.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, politically, and I don't like to dwell on is it politically right or is it politically wrong, but just like the American people.
[22:05:01]
I mean, Arthur, do you think that they are really going to stomach that?
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don't think anyone's going to. I don't think Congress is going to stomach it. Look, when you have someone like Ted Cruz, who, no matter how you feel about him politically, I could tell you, as a lawyer and a constitutional scholar, Ted Cruz is -- he knows his stuff. So, when he's pushing back, you know, that says a lot.
But Trump has been, had the crap beat out of him from, you know, Kimmel and all of them, Fallon not that much, but Kimmel and Seth Meyers. So, you know, there's a defensive mechanism. I know some of my clients, when they just get beat down so badly, they react in a way that's not rational. They say things that they shouldn't say, but it's a defensive mechanism, and he's just like, everyone out there is just saying all these horrible things about me and I want them to stop. Is what he said right? It's not right, if Ted Cruz is saying it. And Donald Trump probably knows it's not the right thing to do, but that's what he does. He flexes it, yes. Yes, because he flexes his muscles.
PHILLIP: The issue is that if it weren't for the fact that his FCC actually delivered the veiled threat that he loved so much against ABC, then maybe I could take that seriously, but it's not like he's not trying. He just sued The New York Times in a frivolous $15 billion lawsuit.
AIDALA: It was dismissed, I believe.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It was.
PHILLIP: Yes, but he's going to file it.
AIDALA: Well, if it's dismissed -- I mean, I didn't read the whole decision, so it was dismissed. Usually, you can't re-file it.
PHILLIP: It was dismissed because it was improperly filed was the main reason.
AIDALA: Okay, I didn't --
PHILLIP: But, I mean, look, Abel, Donald Trump, how many passes does he get? I remember in the first administration, a lot of folks would say, well, he's not a lawyer. Is he supposed to know the law? This is not about the law. This is about just like the plain text of the Constitution. How long is he allowed to kind of act in the face of that without any regard for what it actually says?
FMR. LT. GOV. ABEL MALDONADO (R-CA): Well, there's no doubt that he cares and respects the Constitution, Abby. As Arthur has made a comment of, they've been beating the hell out of him.
Well, let me just share something with you. If you think about Donald J. Trump as president, I actually served with Arnold Schwarzenegger. He was the governor when I was a lieutenant governor. These two individuals are brands. Donald J. Trump is a brand. And every day, they're beating up on his brand. So, of course, and he's made it very clear, you punch me, I'm going to punch right back at you.
CHAMPION: That's what happens when you decide to be a public-facing person. That's what happens when you have a large platform.
MALDONADO: Of course. But President Trump is not your normal politician, that is your normal guy who got into office. This is a businessman who --
PHILLIP: Well, let me ask you more directly. Should he stop?
CHAMPION: Yes.
PHILLIP: Should he stop saying what he's saying?
MALDONADO: Okay. Abby, I think he should, but he's not going to.
PHILLIP: Yes. But, I mean, at some point, somebody's got to say, you know what, and maybe this is what Ted Cruz is doing, it's more important than this political moment for this to stop, right? That, yes, maybe he feels put upon, he's a human being after all, but the country is more important than his feelings in this moment. Who's going to say that?
MALDONADO: 100 percent. And I'm watching, and I'm listening very carefully what Ted Cruz is saying. And he's right, to be very sincere. I mean, look, free speech, the First Amendment, I mean, if we are going to do it now, eventually -- I mean, Barack Obama gave us. Donald J. Trump. Donald J. Trump gave us Joe Biden. Joe Biden gave us Donald J. -- the Democrats will come into power --
CHAMPION: And why are you talking about Barack Obama?
MALDONADO: No, I'm just saying --
CHAMPION: When was the last time he was president?
MALDONADO: What I'm trying to say is that it's going to go back to a Democrat someday and we're going to regret it. PHILLIP: Yes. Let me play it, because that's what Trump -- Ben Shapiro said a very similar thing today, but, you know, in this warning about the FCC, while everybody's trying to claim that, you know, the FCC chairman had nothing to do with the decision on Jimmy Kimmel, Ben Shapiro says, it looks bad, shouldn't really happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN SHAPIRO, HOST, THE BEN SHAPIRO SHOW: I do not want the FCC in the business of telling local affiliates that their licenses will be removed if they broadcast material that the FCC deems to be informationally false. Why? Because one day the shoe will be on the other foot.
This country is split 50-50. Pretending that this country is split 80- 20 does no one any good.
He did not win in a blowout. I will remind you that Kamala Harris, an awful, terrible, horrifying candidate, somehow achieved in the popular vote 48.3 percent, and Donald Trump won 49.8 percent.
We should stop pretending that this is not a closely divided country, and that Democrats will never win again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHAMPION: Correct.
AIDALA: Okay. But here's why --
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me let --
CHAMPION: You all have had your moment. It's my turn.
AIDALA: Friends.
CHAMPION: Friend.
AIDALA: Call me friend.
CHAMPION: Best friend.
AIDALA: Thank you.
CHAMPION: Friend.
AIDALA: Thank you.
CHAMPION: My best friend.
AIDALA: I feel better now.
PHILLIP: All right, besties.
CHAMPION: My best friend, my bestie.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Cari.
CHAMPION: The reality is this and I think we should be very clear, because the free speech, this whole conversation, I tweeted the other day -- or not necessarily tweeted, I threaded the other day, Abby, can we have free speech on planet Earth?
[22:10:02]
And people feel like they cannot speak. I said this on your show. I feel journalists are under attack. We're making sure that our words are careful. We don't want to get in trouble. We think we're going to be fired. We think our livelihood is on the line because if we say something that offends this particular administration, it appears that everyone is afraid.
What Donald Trump is saying to us, quite frankly, is, do not attack me because I don't like it, because it hurts my feelings.
MORAN: And because --
CHAMPION: And, yes, continue.
MORAN: What they're doing is marching through the institutions.
CHAMPION: Marching through every single institution, Terry.
MORAN: Finding every pressure points and exploiting it to get their way.
PHILLIP: Terry, let me get your take on this because, you know these folks, former Disney CEO Michael Eisner spoke out. He said, where has all the leadership gone? If not for university presidents, law firm, managing partners and corporate chief executives standing up against bullies, who then will step up for the First Amendment? The suspending indefinitely of Jimmy Kimmel immediately, after the chairman of the FCC's aggressive, yet hollow threatening of the Disney company, is yet another example of an out of control intimidation.
I mean, it's a super important question because --
CHAMPION: He dealt with this.
PHILLIP: The pocketbook issues, business decisions.
CHAMPION: Yes.
PHILLIP: But --
MORAN: Well, Michael Eisner is criticizing his successor, Bob Iger, who I used to work for. I didn't know him that well, seemed like a decent guy. But look what he's done. The most important thing that Eisner said there, these are hollow threats. The FCC does not have the power to strip local broadcasters' licenses because the president doesn't like a joke that somebody tells. But Eisner fold -- Iger folded up. And he's really burning down his legacy. Contrast, in the 1970s during Watergate, Catherine Graham, the great publisher of The Washington Post, was going to publish the Pentagon papers, the second tranche of them, and Nixon threatened to pull their broadcast licenses, which was basically the main funding for The Washington Post at the time. That lady stood up and said, go ahead and do it. We need that kind of spine in corporate.
CHAMPION: But Terry's point -- wait, I also worked for Disney, and I want to bring up this point because I was there for a decade. Like I was a hot ten years, and they would not allow us to talk bad about Colin Kaepernick. There were editorial -- there were people who would take stories and write them for us whenever we wanted to. So, this has always been the case. It has always been the case. That's ESPN. It's always been the case.
What I'm -- I'm not surprised by them folding to Donald Trump. What I am surprised about is that when we look around, everyone is falling in line. And we're in a society now where everyone is following in line.
AIDALA: Abby, I don't think this is accurate. I don't think the FCC --
CHAMPION: Why is that not accurate?
AIDALA: No, I don't think the FCC shut down Kimmel. I think the local affiliates got complaints from their viewers in middle --
CHAMPION: No.
AIDALA: No. Hold on. You got -- look at Deadline's reporting. Deadline's reporting said the local affiliates called the mothership and said, our viewers are not happy with what Kimmel said.
(CROSSTALKS)
AIDALA: Not about a human being getting shot in their jugular vein and blood spilling all over the place.
PHILLIP: We had Monte Williams on here a couple days ago, and he was talking about, you know, just the voluminous complaints, when he had a syndicated show that everybody knows the Montel Williams Show, voluminous complaints would come in from viewers to via the affiliates. But it's not just the broadcast license of Disney. I think that's super important to understand. The other part of this is that Nexstar, one of the major affiliate groups here, needs this administration to say yes to a deal that would allow it all of money to purchase another affiliate group and would make their owner potentially a billionaire.
AIDALA: But this is a --
PHILLIP: So this is not --
AIDALA: But this isn't Montel Williams stuff and women fighting on the show. This is about a human being assassinated on T.V.
MORAN: What did Jimmy Kimmel say that was so awful? CHAMPION: What did he say that was so awful?
AIDALA: He said -- he touched on that third rail that we all know. And, look, when I was on the show Monday night --
(CROSSTALKS)
AIDALA: Abby, when I was on with you Monday night, this past Monday night, we were all so guarded and so quiet because we knew the nation was in a weird place because of this assassination on live television. So, we all watched ourselves, we all stayed off the third rail. Jimmy Kimmel decided to play with the third rail.
CHAMPION: What did he say?
AIDALA: And the moment he --
(CROSSTALKS)
MALDONADO: He said the shooter is a MAGA person.
(CROSSTALKS)
AIDALA: He said the MAGA people are pretending it's not a MAGA person.
MALDONADO: Right, which is not true.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Stop, stop. Everybody stop. Everybody stop for just a second, okay? He said, MAGA world is pretending like the shooter is not one of us. Now --
AIDALA: One of them. One of MAGA, right.
PHILLIP: One of them, right?
MALDONADO: What does that mean, Abby?
PHILLIP: It's a good question, but Jimmy Kimmel never got to explain. I think that is actually part of this is that there is a long way between this is inappropriate, this needs to be addressed, there are complaints coming in and taking someone off the air, who, by the way, is on the president's list of people who he wants removed from the air.
[22:15:10]
CHAMPION: When George Floyd -- when George Floyd -- no, no, no. When George Floyd -- no, time out.
AIDALA: I agree with you that you should not --
CHAMPION: No, but you are making exceptions.
PHILLIP: I get it.
CHAMPION: When George Floyd died and he and the office are -- or let's even talk about Breonna. When Breonna was murdered and I remember Michael Strahan interviewing the officer, one of the many officers who were there, and he was like, I don't know about George Floyd, I think he might've been on drugs. I don't know. I can't say that he died because someone put a foot on his neck for eight minutes or nine minutes, however many minutes it was, no one got fired then. And that's playing with the third rail. He's assuming that this man was on drugs, so that's why he died.
This is ridiculous. What Jimmy Kimmel did was within fair bounds. He did not assume --
MALDONADO: And his employer suspended him.
MORAN: Under pressure from the broadcast authority. Saying this is a business decision is like saying blackmail --
PHILLIP: let me just let me leave you with this thought, because, again, like I think the theme of the day is that everything gets dumbed down into a partisan debate. This is not one of those things, right? The free speech debate is transcending partisan lines. The National Re Review, not a liberal publication, says Kimmel's comment was not true, and he should have known it was not true. It also wasn't worthy of vague threats of government sanction, but the laws governing the FCC are broad enough that the agency can police almost any content in broadcast media and the public interest.
MALDONADO: That's not true.
AIDALA: FCC can't just knock you off for lying.
PHILLIP: No. I think that what they're saying here is that they can use the pretense of their technical legal ability under the law. Even though it doesn't happen, even though it's hard to do, they can use that pretense to threaten the affiliates, which is exactly what Brendan Carr did. That is exactly what he did.
AIDALA: Well, Jimmy Kimmel got fined once before, CBS did, for $400,000 because he did a skit and he used the emergency broadcast network on the show, and it was going to tell people that it was really an emergency and they fined him $400,000. You can't curse, you can't show obscenity.
They can't just -- the FCC does not have the power just to throw you off because you say something they don't like.
CHAMPION: Abby, when are jokes not jokes? When are we allowed to --
AIDALA: Well, that wasn't a joke though. He wasn't making a joke.
CHAMPION: Time out. My point is that he has been on this, he has -- he's on 20 -- what, 20-plus seasons of this show. And then all of a sudden now his humor, whether it be towards Democrats or Republicans, is inappropriate? When did it become -- it's subjective. It's subjective. And we are saying that what he said subjectively is not fair and so he has to lose his job, you pay me to come up with this content to write, to create and to do. MALDONADO: Right. And his boss suspended him.
CHAMPION: I'm sorry, it's subjective.
AIDALA: The government didn't say --
MALDONADO: The government didn't suspend him, his boss --
PHILLIP: All right, guys. Next for us, the Democrats refuse to honor Charlie Kirk on the floor of the House as a famous cardinal calls him a saint.
Plus, more breaking news tonight, the president wants to fire a U.S. attorney who can't find evidence against Letitia James, one of Trump's foes.
We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, a battle over the legacy of Charlie Kirk. The conservative activist was remembered by the archbishop of New York as a modern-day saint.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOLAN: The more I learned about him, I thought, this guy's a modern- day St. Paul. He was a missionary. He's an evangelist. He's a hero. He's one I think that knew what Jesus meant when he said the truth will set you free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The tune was a bit different over on Capitol Hill, however. Today, as the House overwhelmingly passed a resolution honoring Kirk and praising his life and legacy, nearly 60 Democrats voted against it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): We should be clear about who Charlie Kirk was, a man who believed that the Civil Rights Act that granted Black Americans the right to vote was a mistake, who, after the violent attack on Paul Pelosi, claimed that, quote, some amazing patriot, unquote, should bail out his brutal assailant, and accused Jews of controlling, quote, not just the colleges, it's the nonprofits, it's the movies, it's Hollywood, it's all of it, unquote.
His rhetoric and beliefs were ignorant, uneducated and sought to disenfranchise millions of Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Another 38 Democrats voted present on that resolution and 22 didn't vote at all. One of the big problems for Democrats with the resolution was that it wasn't just one that memorialized him after he was killed in such a horrible fashion but it also said that he was a courageous patriot, he lived -- he boldly lived out his faith with conviction, courage, and compassion, and is a model for young Americans across the political spectrum. That is what was the bridge too far.
CHAMPION: Do you think that in this instance, when we talk about Charlie Kirk, I just -- I feel like so many of us are lacking nuance.
[22:25:00]
Can three things be true? Can two things be true? Can what the cardinal said be true and what AOC said be true also? Like can they not exist?
AIDALA: No, I don't think -- no, I don't.
CHAMPION: And why can't they?
AIDALA: I mean, the answer question is no.
CHAMPION: And why can't they coexist?
AIDALA: Because I don't think St. Paul being an evangelist and that being what you call them, ignorant, uneducated --
CHAMPION: These are people's opinions. It's freedom of speech. Can they not be true to them? What is your truth about Charlie Kirk? What is your truth?
AIDALA: Look, I am not a Charlie Kirk expert, the same way that if --
CHAMPION: No one is. No one is.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Go ahead, Arthur.
AIDALA: If you listen to Cardinal Dolan said, I never heard of Charlie Kirk until the homicide, so the execution, but I've studied him now, all these clips of him, and then he came to that conclusion. So, he wasn't like a Charlie Kirk guy, but I don't think you could call it Charlie Kirk uneducated. Yes, he didn't graduate college, but he's a pretty learned man from all the educational things I heard him say. I also don't think he's an ignorant man. He may have opinions that you don't agree with, but that's because he formed opinions, not because he didn't know what he was saying.
CHAMPION: Opinions can be uneducated also.
AIDALA: I know, but I don't think it applies to him.
PHILLIP: Is it fair for Democrats and for AOC to say, you know, we mourn his death, we think it's a horrible thing that's happened, but we don't want to endorse his views? Is that a fair thing to say?
MALDONADO: I think it's fair. I mean, she's being very honest. But I've seen resolutions in Houses and in Congress come out and you might want to -- this is different. This is a person who was assassinated. And to come up there and say, you know what, he was ignorant and didn't know what he -- I mean, that's fine, she's got the right, that's her First Amendment right to say that. However, I think it's distasteful, to be honest with you, during this time. But to see AOC and to see Cardinal Dolan, I mean, obviously there is a night and day separation of what they both said, but that's where America's at. That's where America's at. We're so divided. But I like the words --
AIDALA: And you can't just -- I want to read some of the things that was in the resolution. In the strongest possible terms, we condemn the assassination, that it's steadfast dedication to the -- he had steadfast dedication to the Constitution, civil discourse, biblical truth, inspired a generation to cherish and defend the blessings of liberty and ask Americans to reject political violence, recommit to respectful debate, uphold American values and respect one another as fellow Americans.
Why can't you vote for that? It's a resolution. It's not a law. We're not changing the Constitution. We're just saying that's what we should do. I mean, the (INAUDIBLE) really are crazy.
MORAN: Here we're just a few days a after this atrocious act, which should have brought us together, because I think what he did, what he was doing was admirable, right? He was sitting there inviting debate and being an evangelist for his beliefs. Right now, I don't think they were the same beliefs as I understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, but that was what he was doing. And he was killed doing it and was killed because he said it.
PHILLIP: Is it fair then to debate his beliefs?
MORAN: Sure.
MALDONADO: Of course, it is. This is a resolution today, Abby, that really it's memorializing. The resolution, it's what we call in politics a district bill where it doesn't have -- I mean -- AIDALA: No teeth. No teeth.
PHILLIP: Yes, it has no teeth. But, again, I think, again, the Democrats, you read part of it, but as I pointed out, a model for young Americans across the political spectrum. That is one of many things that I think they just simply disagree with. They don't think it's true.
CHAMPION: Correct.
PHILLIP: Let me just play --
MALDONADO: You could say some Americans.
PHILLIP: Well, actually, no. I'm going to read this because I think this is a -- you know, what AOC said, we have all those clips. If you want to hear them, I can play individual ones. But Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote a piece about this earlier this week about how this was kind of going down in our discourse. And he said, Kirk was a master of folding, seemingly discordant bigotries into each other, as when he defined the American way of life as marriage, home ownership, and child-rearing, free of the, quote, lesbian, gay, transgender garbage in their school, adding that he did not want kids to have to hear the Muslim call to prayer five times a day.
The American way of life was Christiandom, Kirk claimed, and Islam, quote, the sword that the left is using to slit the throat of America was antithetical to that.
So, listen, he was a provocateur. That is what he did. He was a podcaster.
CHAMPION: Correct.
PHILLIP: What he said was controversial for a reason, and maybe it's because he wanted to have those debates. But I think some people feel right now like it's -- you can never talk about the debate about the debate.
CHAMPION: Well, why can't we talk about that? Like I -- look, there -- we can all say how he was murdered was disgusting. It was horrible. And when people start to say that, they are really do mean that. And when I say two or three things can be true, I truly believe no one should have to ever look up and see how their parents are murdered.
[22:30:00]
A wife should not have to see that. That should not be available. The fact that it was so frequently available and we can watch over and over is disgusting to me.
But what's also unfair and what we don't talk about, we can't just say that was disgusting. We also have to talk about how he talked about black women. I feel personally offended. He attacked a good friend of mine in Joy Reid, and he talked about Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. He didn't like her. He talked about other people who said he thought they didn't have proper brain processing power. That is offensive. And so some of us can feel a way, but still respect that that was wrong, what happened to him. That is the problem.
PHILLIP: Terry, before you come in, I mean, just because this happened tonight, Van Jones, our friend and colleague, he revealed that he learned that Charlie Kirk had actually D.M. him after last week earlier in the week. I'll just be transparent. On this show, we were discussing Charlie Kirk and he and Van Jones were going back and forth online.
And Charlie Kirk had D.M. him asking to talk, asking him to come on the show, saying that they would be respectful. And Van writes, "When our public dispute started going sideways, what was Kirk's response? He pushed for more conversation, not more silencing or censorship. He pushed for more civility, not more stridency or venom. Whatever you think of Kirk's legacy, that simple fact is commendable and it's something that everyone should uphold and seek to replicate."
The reason I think Van wrote this is because I saw it. There were people using Charlie Kirk's name to blame Van for his death, to attack other people. And he's pointing out that literally in the midst of their back-and-forth, Charlie Kirk was saying come on my show, let's talk.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: What do mean they were using his name to blame Van? What do you mean by that? I don't get that.
PHILLIP: People were saying -- people were saying that Charlie Kirk, you know, because Charlie Kirk was -- had been assassinated, that the disputes that he was in verbally were the fault of the people that he was having conversations with.
(CROSSTALK)
MORAN: Yeah, yeah, look. We're in a culture war.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That doesn't make any sense.
MORAN: We're in a culture war. And he was a warrior in this culture war. And while I admire Cardinal Dolan, Jesus was not about culture war, right? And so, I don't quite see that. I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: Well --
(CROSSTALK)
MORAN: Love your enemies. Love your enemies.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
MORAN: And pray for your person -- those who persecuted you. But in this culture war, he engaged --vehemently engaged with gusto in the culture war and yet there was, to me, a willingness in -- it wasn't markers of Queensbury Rules, but to engage with people.
CHAMPION: I agree. I agree.
MORAN: That's the heart of who we are. And I don't -- I didn't agree with --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And I mean, listen. He could have -- he could have said, Van Jones, you're an evil person. I never want to speak to you again.
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: Yes. Yeah.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: He didn't say that --
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: I was on the show. I was on that panel with you.
PHILLIP: But there are other people who are saying who are -- who were saying that in the wake of his assassination.
AIDALA: What I would like to know about the congressional thing was that the 60 Democrats who didn't vote, and I think -- I don't think we know the answer. Did they go back and adjusted like and say, okay, can we take out this word? I feel more comfortable voting for the resolution if you take out not all Americans, some Americans. Can we tweak it a little bit and get to a place where we all agree, but all 60 of them say no, it's so hard to say --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That sounds like rational governance --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Yeah, yeah. No, no.
PHILLIP: -- which is not at all how Congress is operating.
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: I'm sorry for being rational. I'm guilty. I'm guilty.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: I know. I know.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I'm not saying -- you're totally right that in a functioning democracy, that is exactly what should happen. But let's be honest. What's happening on Capitol Hill is dysfunctional.
CHAMPION: Yes. Correct. Correct.
PHILLIP: And this is a by-product of that dysfunction. Yeah, in a normal world, you have a back and forth. What can you say yes to? What can you agree? How can we make something --
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
PHILLIP: -- I'll put something on paper that we can all agree on. That's not how this went down. And that's a symptom of --
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: That's sad. That's sad.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: But I don't think that ever went down. I don't -- look. I wasn't alive -- I made -- I'll lean on to the senior elders, of the people who may know I'm being sarcastic. But talk to me about how we all remember Martin Luther King Jr.
PHILLIP: Okay.
CHAMPION: Like everyone didn't agree when he --
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: No, but Clinton and Newt Gingrich got along. They figured things out. They weren't together.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: No, but my point is, time will always tell the story. At we don't have that right now.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, and I think -- Martin Luther King --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- memorializing him was extremely controversial for many decades in this country. We can't forget about that.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Correct.
PHILLIP: All right, coming up next, breaking news. Donald Trump wants to fire the U.S. attorney who can't find evidence to charge Letitia James, one of Trump's perceived enemies. Is this the actual definition of a deep state?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:39:19]
PHILLIP: Tonight, a top prosecutor appointed by Donald Trump is quitting after he faced pressure from the President. Why? Well, because he didn't find evidence to charge Letitia James. The New York attorney general is one of Trump's many foes and someone who Trump has accused of mortgage fraud. And here's what he said moments before the resignation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: -- like she's very guilty of something, but I really don't know. I know that the U.S. attorney from the Eastern District or from that district in Virginia -- that he was approved by two Democrat senators who in my opinion are among the worst. When I saw that he got approved by those two men, I said pull it because it can't be any good.
[22:40:03]
UNKNOWN: So, you want him fired. You want him out?
TRUMP: Yeah, want him out. Yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Well, that was blunt.
UNKNOWN: Very clear.
PHILLIP: Very clear. Crystal clear. Arthur, they can't find the goods.
AIDALA: Well --
PHILLIP: And they are literally firing the guy he appointed a few months ago?
AIDALA: But just correct me if I'm wrong because I couldn't hear perfectly. Did he say -- the President just said because the guy who I put up to be U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District got approved by the two Democrats, he has to be a bad person, right? I mean, is that what they just basically said?
PHILLIP: Yes. Even though I should clarify, the blue --
AIDALA: Yeah, it's a little complicated.
PHILLIP: Okay, the blue slip is sort of like an alleged -- it's a process in the legislative nomination process.
AIDALA: Right.
PHILLIP: But Trump nominated him after those senators gave the blue slip. So, he knew that they had endorsed them when he nominated him.
AIDALA: And just to be clear, in New York, the senators didn't endorse the two U.S. attorneys. They had to be approved by the judiciary there and they were approved by the judiciary because they're both very competent people in the southern district, eastern district or New York. Look, no prosecutor should be fired, whether it's the local town prosecutor or a federal prosecutor, because there's a target on someone's back and you know, you can't -- I mean it's just not the way the system's supposed to work.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He said -- he said he's guilty of something.
AIDALA: I don't know if that's why Trump has fired --
CHAMPION: I don't know what it is. There's something.
(CROSSTALK) AIDALA: Well, I mean, there's some -- they did show some paperwork saying that she filled out some --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Stop it, Arthur. Stop it. Stop it. Is that not ridiculous? Is that statement not ridiculous? Leave your big brain. He wants her out because -- he wants the guy out because he did not -- to get rid of this woman that he doesn't like who came up there.
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: But he did just say that. Did he?
CHAMPION: Yes, he's saying whoever came after me politically, I'm going after them. That's what he's saying and that's he's been saying. And stop talking.
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: Okay, but those words didn't actually come out of his mouth. I'm asking you. I'm just asking you a question.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Oh, Lord. Oh, Lord Jesus. Stop it.
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: Did he say that or are you presuming that he said that?
PHILLIP: Arthur, Arthur.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Arthur, stop it.
PHILLIP: Arthur, that referral from FHFA has been over a DOJ for five months now. They have not found the evidence despite there being a clear mandate from Trump to find evidence to prosecute this woman.
CHAMPION: There's something.
PHILLIP: They have not found it. This is a -- this is a Trump guy. He is not some kind of like holdover from the Obama -- from the Biden administration.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Because they put it in the hands of a Trump guy.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay. I know -- but I don't know this for a fact but maybe this is true. It's perhaps because FHFA is in the eastern district of Virginia. AIDALA: Okay.
PHILLIP: All right. The attorney general, Pam Bondi, Todd Blanche, privately defended Mr. Siebert against officials, including Bill Pulte. This is the guy levying all these -- all these accusations -- who had urged that he be fired and replaced with a prosecutor who would push the cases forward according to a senior law enforcement official. He's got defenders, including many in the Trump administration, Senator Chuck Grassley, but they've got a guy who builds homes, pushing for a prosecution when career lawyers, practice prosecutors are saying there's -- we cannot build a case here. What's going on?
MALDONADO: Well, we have a situation where, you know, Letitia James came after President Trump and slapped then with a $450 million on how he appraised his properties or how he valued his properties. I mean, I think to the tune that Mar-a-Lago was appraised at 18 million bucks.
So, all of a sudden, President Trump and he spoke to the Department of Justice see that Leticia James on an application for a home loan obviously made some discrepancies on where it was her primary home in order to get a better interest rate. And hey, let me tell you what happens is, turn the tables on her. That's exactly what happened here. That's what happened whether we like it or not.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But hold on -- but hold on. It has to actually be true. The difference between -- the difference between what you just outlined there, what Letitia James did, whether -- I'm not endorsing what she did, right? But she actually went through a legal process. Donald Trump can't even get in the door of a legal process with his own prosecutor.
MORAN: Five months of investigation with the power of subpoena, with all the resources of the Department of Justice, and they can't make a case against her. What we're seeing is the partisan takeover of institution after institution, now a partisan law enforcement. Senior officials of the FBI testified -- former senior officials ---that they were given questionnaires when Trump came in. Who did you vote for? He wants a partisan FBI. He wants a partisan prosecutor. That's dangerous.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Partisan is not enough anymore, apparently.
MORAN: Yeah. Loyalty.
PHILLIP: Because of this guy --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: You need to be a loyalist.
(CROSSTALK) AIDALA: This is all wrong. I'm putting it out on the table. But look where it started. It started with them going after Trump under the Biden administration --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Were they wrong for --
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: They targeted Donald Trump.
CHAMPION: Were they wrong for going after Trump?
AIDALA: Well, let's see. The case that we just talked about was just reversed by the appellate court.
UNKNOWN: Right.
AIDALA: And the criminal case is --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Were they wrong? Were they wrong?
AIDALA: Yes. When an appellate court reverses it --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Are you -- are you saying that Donald Trump never committed a crime? I'm asking because you're the attorney at hand. I'm asking.
AIDALA: Well, I can tell you, the one case we're referring to, Letitia James, was just reversed by the appellate court. And in matter of fact, one of the judges said the whole thing should be thrown out.
[22:45:00]
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Thrown out completely.
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: One of the judges said, we'll just -- we'll just get rid of the crime. I'm telling you, the appellate courts --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: The question is has he committed a crime?
PHILLIP: Can I ask you -- can I ask you a question? Oh, I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Arthur, let me ask you a question because if this was such a -- if this was such a brazen conspiracy on the part of Democrats --
CHAMPION: Brazen.
PHILLIP: -- and it was so easy for them to do it, that they were able to get all these cases to pile on Donald Trump, why on earth is it so hard for Donald Trump to get a little mortgage fraud case on Letitia James? And don't you think that would be so easy by comparison?
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: Maybe she didn't do anything wrong. Maybe she didn't do anything wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I just -- I'm not saying, logically, the conspiracy doesn't make a lot of sense. Because otherwise, Letitia James would be behind bars right now because this mortgage fraud thing should be an easy, open and shut case.
AIDALA: I'm not saying Letitia James did anything wrong.
PHILLIP: Listen.
CHAMPION: What are you saying? You're saying Donald and Letitia did nothing wrong? Is that what you're saying?
AIDALA: I'm telling you what the appellate court said, that Donald Trump's case, that $450 million is out the window.
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: The Georgia case was thrown out.
PHILLIP: That's the legal process in action. We'll see what Trump does to replace this U.S. attorney and if they can find someone to do what he wants them to do.
MALDONADO: And by the way, they work at the pleasure of the President, by the way, the U.S. attorney.
PHILLIP: Sure. They certainly do. But they also work in defense of the Constitution.
MALDONADO: That's correct.
PHILLIP: Next for us, what should Jimmy Kimmel do in the standoff with ABC? We're going to go around the table and find out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:58]
PHILLIP: What should Jimmy Kimmel's next steps be? The source told CNN that the suspended host met with Disney and ABC executives at his lawyer's office, but didn't come to an agreement about the future of Kimmel or his show. So, let's go around quickly at the table and get everybody's take about what you think he should do next. Terry?
MORAN: Well, I know that he and Bob Iger are close, and so maybe they can work it out. But if not, then he goes on tour with Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart, do a comedy tour. It would make a lot of money and then form their own -- their own network, right? We don't need that big corporate networks. You can just plug in your phone and off you go.
PHILLIP: Yeah, that -- I mean it's the future. That's where we're all heading. Abel?
MALDONADO: I think that Jimmy Kimmel is going to sit down with the President of ABC and they're going to come up with an agreement. And I think it's going to come back on the air to be very sincere with you. That's what's going to happen. And if not, I think he has a right to sue his employer and say you fired me for what? And get to the bottom of it. And let the court decide of what happened here.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
CHAMPION: I think Jimmy Kimmel is really concerned about his staff. I think that he will be financially okay but arguably more concerned about his staff and he's figuring out a way to make sure that those people are taken care of. But I also agree with you that he should go into (inaudible) Colbert. Freedom of speech is not free as we have learned. Not even just in these recent times, I think forever in America. Freedom of speech is not free.
And I -- and I would love to see him be free. And what that freedom looks like is, me take my bag, whatever you guys decide to give me, I'll walk away, I'll create my own podcast, and perhaps I'll go on tour with Stephen Colbert. But what I will do is speak truth to power, and that will galvanize. The more that they continue to get people off the air that want to speak publicly and loudly, I think that's going to help speak to this what I call wartime journalism.
PHILLIP: Arthur?
AIDALA: Well, the only part I'll disagree with you about the tour of them going out is, and I don't really watch these guys often, but the clips I watch, it's not a comedy tour. They're not really comedians. Pardon me for being old fashioned. Johnny Carson used to come on and try to make you laugh. David Letterman only tried to make you laugh. He didn't get involved with politics. I don't remember David Letterman --- it's like if Gerald Ford fell down the steps.
PHILLIP: He did.
AIDALA: But not, it's not, it was never his whole monologue. There would be one joke about one thing, and then he would talk about other things that are going on. Trust me, those guys, Jay Leno, yes, there was a -- two jokes. But these guys, it's 100 percent of the time, Trump, Trump. And it's like, it's boring. It's enough already.
PHILLIP: All right. Real quick, show of hands if you think that he can both apologize and simultaneously stand his ground in this moment. CHAMPION: There's no way to do that.
PHILLIP: No way?
CHAMPION: No way to do that.
AIDALA: I think he can. I think he's smart enough. I think he's cunning enough.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: He did apologize.
AIDALA: Maybe he's got a good relationship with the President.
CHAMPION: He did apologize, but I think they want him to do more.
PHILLIP: I think he can. I think there's a way to say, I should have been more precise and also say, you can't tell me what to say. We'll see what he does.
UNKNOWN: He will.
PHILLIP: Up next for us, what's on tonight's menu? Chef Liza and our Food Network friends have been hard at work behind us --
CHAMPION: This is all we came here for, Abby.
PHILLIP: -- cooking some food for us. It is some warm, comfort food that we all need. But first, a quick programming note for you. Join Roy, Amber and Michael on a special night for "Have I Got News for You". It is Sunday this week, Sunday at 9 P.M. right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:55]
PHILLIP: All right, we are here with Chef Liza Zeneski, the supervising culinary producer here at The Food Network. So Chef, tell us about this amazing dish I've already been digging in.
LIZA ZENESKI, SUPERVISING CULINARY PRODUCER, THE FOOD NETWORK: Great. So, these are our jumbo cheesy meatballs --
PHILLIP: So good.
ZENESKI: -- that we're serving with some low and slow simmered tomato sauce and creamy polenta. I love this recipe because it's like a mini meatloaf, I guess, on your plate, which is so fun. Plus, like, who doesn't like a cheesy, ooey, gooey center?
PHILLIP: I have some important questions. But mainly, I fail at meatballs because -- especially the size, how do you get it to be cooked all the way through?
ZENESKI: Sure. So, the way I made these was I, first of all, I measured exactly the amount of the ground beef mixture for each meatball to make sure that they were fully even.
PHILLIP: The same.
ZENESKI: Yeah, exactly even.
PHILLIP: That's key part. I'm too lazy to --
(CROSSTALK)
ZENESKI: That's it. And then I popped them in the oven at 400 for about 30 minutes until they were nicely golden brown and then they simmered in the sauce for couple of hours.
[23:00:02]
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Then they simmer for a while for hours -- hours, actually.
(CROSSTALK)
ZENESKI: Yeah, exactly. So, you have all that flavor.
PHILLIP: This is amazing. And then the polenta is so light.
ZENESKI: Oh good.
PHILLIP: And creamy. It's beautiful.
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: My grandma, she would fry them in the olive oil. Then put them in the oven.
(CROSSTALK)
ZENESKI: They're delicious.
AIDALA: A little olive oil going on in there.
ZENESKI: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. Well, scan that Q.R. code on your screen for these cheesy Italian meatballs. Trust me, they are so good. The recipe will be there.
Everyone, thank you so much for watching. Thanks for watching "NewsNight". Don't miss our weekend conversation show tomorrow morning. That's "Table for Five", 10 A.M. Eastern, right here on CNN. "Laura Coates Live" is right now.
