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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
No End in Sight for Government Shutdown, White House Says Firings Imminent; Trump's Efforts to Expand Government Echoes Socialism Policies. Trump Pledges To Defend A Nation He Called A Funder Of Terrorism; Pete Hegseth's War On Leakers Intensifies. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 01, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, America's October surprise is a government shutdown.
SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): This isn't entertainment. And if it is an entertainment, this is a really shitty show.
PHILLIP: The lines in the sand are drawn. Who will blink first?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We believe that layoffs are imminent.
PHILLIP: Plus, once again, Donald Trump blurs the line between socialism and capitalism, and Republicans changed their party's bedrock to baguette.
Also did the president just promise to send America's sons and daughters to fight a war for Qatar? The extraordinary pledge miffing MAGA.
And the price of dissent. 80 years later, Jane Fonda resurrects the committee that fought McCarthyism to fight Trumpism.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is different. This is a very chilling time.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Ana Navarro, Arthur Aidala, Xochitl Hinojosa, Joe Borelli and Kmele Foster.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, shutdown standoff. Tonight, there is no end in sight to the government shutdown, and there is no Donald Trump in sight either. Instead, the White House put out Vice President J.D. Vance in front of the press on day one as fingers point in every direction over who's to blame for this.
Now, for the Democrats, they have very little leverage here. Even a Washington Post editorial is warning that they played into Trump's hands. It argues that past shutdowns fail to achieve anything for the Freedom Caucus, and there's no reason to think that the same thing won't happen to their left wing counterparts now. And it appears that the White House and Republicans are embracing this moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: We believe that layoffs are imminent. They are unfortunately a consequence of this government shutdown.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): I think that is fantastic. And what it's going to do is it's going to cause Democrats in Congress to scream and weep.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's those kinds of consequences that forced Independent Senator Angus King, who caucuses with the Democrats, to vote to avoid a shutdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ANGUS KING (I-ME): The irony, the paradox is by shutting the government, we're actually giving Donald Trump more power. And that was why I voted yes. I did not want to hand Donald Trump and Russell Vought and Stephen Miller additional power to decimate the federal government, to decimate the programs that are so important to so many people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Shutdowns are a messy thing and it's hard to say who's really going to get the blame for all of this, but there's clearly some uneasiness in the ranks of Democrats and those who caucus with them. Let me just read for you, Ana, what Democratic representative Jared Golden said. He said, this government shutdown is the result of hardball politics driven by the demands of far left groups that they are making for Democratic Party leaders to show their opposition to Trump. The shutdown is hurting Americans in our economy, and the irony is it has only handed more power to the president. But normal policy disagreements are no reason to subject our constituents to continued harm of this shutdown. I mean, does he have a point?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think there's something wrong with you regardless of party if you don't feel unease and really disturbed by the idea that shutdowns have almost become modus operandi in our country and that it hurts real people. I remember in the last shutdown there being, frankly, bread lines where Jose Andres was feeding government workers who didn't have money to buy food. And this comes, you know, at right after the trauma that government workers, federal workers have faced as a result of DOGE. So, you know, it's the DOGE cuts, it's now this shutdown. I almost wonder why would anybody want to be a federal worker when supposedly the reason to be one was job security.
PHILLIP: And that's what Trump and Republicans want. They don't want people to serve in the federal government because this is handing them a win.
NAVARRO: But I also think you can't make light of the fact that there is a real issue that Democrats are fighting for here, which is the ACA subsidies and the millions of Americans that are going to be hurt when those subsidies disappear.
[22:05:06]
You know, I'm not -- I don't get an ACA subsidy but I am on the ACA exchange. I got an email from my insurance company last month telling me because of government changes, the costs are going to go way up. Start preparing.
JOE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: The ACA subsidies aren't expiring until December, and that's part and parcel to the debate we're having, right? The Republicans --
NAVARRO: And do you trust Congress? Do you trust this Congress to do anything in time?
BORELLI: It doesn't matter if you trust them. You have to. They have the power to do this. The Republicans have said -- let me finish. We gave her some time. The Republicans have voted on 13 clean C.R.s at times in history in the last few years when Democrats controlled the House, the Senate, and the White House. Republicans did that. We have -- I can read you a laundry list of Democratic-elected official quotes, including Chuck Schumer, including Hakeem Jeffries, talking about how necessary it is not to insert partisan politics to pass clean C.R.s.
Suddenly, they decided that this one is going to be different and they own the consequences. A poll out yesterday in The New York Times, 65 percent of people say that Democrats should not have done this. That's bad polling for the Democratic Party. This is the Chuck Schumer shutdown. He is responsible for this. And no aligning of the stars is going to make the public see it any differently.
PHILLIP: I mean, I do think that -- first of all, I think the polling and the public sort of impression of this is going to be a big question mark. Because one of the other different parts about this shutdown is that, previously, you didn't have like a federal government and the governing party celebrating people losing their jobs, celebrating people not getting their paychecks. I mean, let me just play what President Trump said about this just tonight. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, there could be firings and that's their fault. And it could also be other things. I mean, we could cut projects that they wanted, favorite projects and they'd be permanently cut. So, you could say -- a lot of people are saying Trump wanted this, that I wanted this closing, and I didn't want it. But a lot of people are saying it because I'm allowed to cut things that should have never been approved in the first place. And I will probably do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I just think people are watching this and they're like, wait a second, who wants to open the government? Because Trump seems to be really comfortable with the fact that he gets to do, in his view, in his mind, maybe that's not legal, but in his mind, he gets to do what he want, has always wanted to do.
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, that's right. And I think that to the earlier point about whether or not this shutdown gives Trump more power, Trump already believes that he has unlimited power. He believes that he -- and everything is being challenged in the courts. He's tried to fire federal workers. He's gone beyond the bounds of any other presidency in our nation's history.
And I think the interesting thing about this is that not only is he praising a shutdown, but Republicans on the Hill are actually -- when you ask them about the ACA subsidies, they said, well, why do we need to do that? We didn't actually get -- this is not why we got elected. We got elected on the border. We didn't get elected to provide healthcare for people, which I find interesting because it just shows you that they are nowhere on this issue and they're likely not going to come to the table.
And to be honest with you, everyone keeps on saying this is a Chuck Schumer shutdown. Can I just tell you, Democrats don't give a crap about Chuck Schumer's future? Hold on. I'm not done. I let you talk. The senators in the Senate, they do not give a crap about what Chuck Schumer is going to do, whether he's going to remain leader. Hakeem Jeffries doesn't care about Chuck Schumer. I don't know. I don't know about Ana. I mean, a lot of people don't.
NAVARRO: I'm a registered Republican. I certainly don't --
HINOJOSA: You certainly don't care about, you certainly don't care about.
NAVARRO: I'm from Florida.
HINOJOSA: And from Florida.
BORELLI: Chuck Schumer cares. He's been holed up with Democratic groups like, move on.
HINOJOSA: But here's what I'll tell you --
BORELLI: He's afraid of not anything else but AOC. That's what Chuck Schumer's afraid of. That's why he suddenly has his beer muscles --
NAVARRO: Do you realize now realize that that primary for the U.S. Senate seat, if Chuck Schumer runs for reelection, is in four years?
BORELLI: And he's scared until today. NAVARRO: Okay. Do you think anybody cares --
BORELLI: I'm not the only one saying this.
NAVARRO: Do you think anybody is going to remove him in four years?
PHILLIP: It's a fair point because it's kind of hard to -- yes, I mean, it's a hard argument to make. But, look, let me just play -- let me play what J.D. Vance was asked about Trump's trolling of Democrats, okay? So, like a basic question in all of this is, if Trump really was all that interested in getting to a deal with Democrats, would he actually be talking to them or would he be sending out doctored A.I. videos? But here's how J.D. Vance responded to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Is it helpful just post pictures of Leader Jeffries in a sombrero if you're trying to have good faith talks with him?
VANCE: Oh, I think it's funny. The president's joking and we're having a good time. You can negotiate in good faith while also poking a little bit of fun at some of the absurdities of the Democrats' positions and even, you know, poking some fun at the absurdity of the Democrats themselves.
[22:10:00]
Hakeem Jeffries said it was racist, and I know that he said that. And I honestly don't even know what that means. Like is he a Mexican American that is offended by having a sombrero meme?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: You know, I saw a meme today of Epstein and Trump with fake sombreros and mustaches. I wish a reporter would show it to J.D. Vance and ask him if he thinks it's equally ha, ha, funny and not racist and just having a good time.
PHILLIP: I mean, part of the reason that that was described as racist is because in the video, there's it -- what is being said is essentially that Democrats want to bring in all of these, you know, Latino Mexicans or whatever, and that they don't speak English anyway, so they don't know who they're going to vote for. I mean, it's pretty clearly a racial attack.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, Abby, this is not really my bailiwick, right? You know, I'm a lawyer and the only thing that I'm being affected by seriously is when I'm speaking to the U.S. attorney's office and the SEC on Monday and they're going to give me paperwork. And they're like, well, if we're here on Wednesday, we'll get it to you because we may not be here on Wednesday.
But, you know, I spoke to one of my closest friends who lives in Switzerland. He's of Greek origin. I spoke to one of my closest friends who lives in Florence, Italy. And they're like, brother, like what's going on in your country? I mean, you guys can't even figure out how to pay your bills. It's the United States of America. You're laying people off. That's what happens in Italy when they add 45 different governments in 45 years.
I mean, it's -- and, you know, they're not -- look, they're not students of our government. They're not necessarily blaming Trump or Schumer or any, they're just like, your country is going to hell in a hand basket. It's becoming like all countries that we can't balance budgets and get people paid. And it's sad. And it's sad because the people who are not getting paid this week who need that money, they don't care if it's this one's fault, that one's fault. They don't care. If it's Democrat, Republican, they can't pay the rent. Today's October 1st. They can't pay the rent.
KMELE FOSTER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, TANGLE: Most of the federal employees who aren't getting paid now will get their money back eventually. So, I mean, for taxpayers, these people aren't doing their jobs right now.
AIDALA: You tell to it landlord.
HINOJOSA: Well, actually, I don't know if we know that they're going to get their money back. I'm not sure this Congress --
FOSTER: There's a federal -- there's a law that was passed in --
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, if they're fired, they won't.
FOSTER: Well, if they're fired, they won't get their jobs.
PHILLIP: And it sounds like they're going to try to fire.
FOSTER: It's certainly the possibility that will happen to some people.
NAVARRO: And if projects are canceled, there's contractors that are going to lose --
FOSTER: There are certainly going to be consequences.
BORELLI: A lot of the reasons that Democrats have support of the C.R., it sounds like.
FOSTER: Well, perhaps. I think that the thing that I would call attention to is I would agree wholeheartedly the dysfunction is the story that's going to matter here. At the moment, I do think the optics are very bad for Democrat and Republicans knew this was going to be the case for a very long time. For Republicans, they even get to say if there's economic dislocation later on in the broader economy, look, the Democrats shut down the government. They've done all of these hazardous things.
But I suspect the longer this goes on, the worse the dysfunction gets and the worse this looks for the current administration that is in power. They haven't really been doing, making an earnest effort, at least it doesn't seem that way to try and get something done here. And the longer this goes on and they haven't tried to get something --
BORELLI: Well, what earnest evidence running the government could there possibly be than saying, hey --
FOSTER: Everyone knew the shutdown was coming.
BORELLI: -- we're simply going to pass the bill that you voted on four times. The bill was fine in March. We're going to pass the same one.
FOSTER: You asked the question, here's what I'd say. Everyone knew that this was coming. There was not a concerted effort on either side of the aisle to actually fix this because we have become -- the shutdowns have become normalized. And I do think that that is the primary story here. Whether or not we place blame on the left or the right, neither side seem to be too interested in actually --
NAVARRO: But what I do appreciate something you said. You said that they should vote for the clean C.R. because the ACA subsidies, the cuts to the ACA subsidies, which are going to affect millions of Americans, don't take effect until months from now, which is the truth. What is not the truth is what J.D. Vance, what Donald Trump, and what Republicans are saying, that this is all about undocumented immigrants. That is a blatant lie that they are feeding the American public because they want to blame everything on undocumented immigrants.
BORELLI: Ro Khanna came out and said that some of the people who are part of the 2.3 million people who were removed from healthcare are here, and non-citizens.
NAVARRO: Undocumented, in fact. Undocumented immigrants are not eligible for ACA. Fact, undocumented immigrants are not --
BORELLI: Obama era HHS report actually took back $50 billion from California for funding people who are non-citizens from getting --
PHILLIP: Noncitizens are not undocumented immigrants necessarily.
BORELLI: Ineligible noncitizens.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Noncitizens are not necessarily undocumented immigrants, correct. There are some people who are noncitizens who are legally allowed to access some of those programs, but that's -- to Ana's point, that's not what any of this is about. This is really about the many Americans, millions of them who are receiving subsidies who will have their premiums go up, their co-pays go up. Yes, but open enrollment starts in a month.
BORELLI: I know you saw the speaker on two shows on this network saying we are open to negotiations on the funding amendments in December.
[22:15:01]
PHILLIP: Joe, do you have health insurance?
BORELLI: I do, I have government insurance.
PHILLIP: Okay. When do you enroll in your health office? BORELLI: Every November.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, you understand that you and your family are sitting there and you're making choices about which plan you're going to be in, you're making that decision not in December or in January 1st when it goes into place, but in November. So, that's the issue here. That's part of the issue.
Now, maybe you could argue they have four weeks to figure it out, but you could also argue that now is the time to figure it out if you're going to try to give --
BORELLI: The Republican position is --
PHILLIP: -- if you're going to try to give people real choices by November 1st, okay?
BORELLI: Let's fund the government for seven weeks so that we don't have a gun to our head when we are negotiating reasonable healthcare policies.
PHILLIP: I understand that position. I think it's totally fine. I just want to clarify the facts on the enrollment dates and also about the undocumented immigrants, which I think has been completely misrepresented. You could call it a lie if you want to.
NAVARRO: I'll call it a lie.
BORELLI: Why did the Biden era HHS take that $50 million from California?
NAVARRO: Let me tell you, Ronald Reagan, who signed the law giving undocumented immigrants --
PHILLIP: Hold on, guys. (INAUDIBLE) of his moves are closer to Mamdani now than Ronald Reagan. We've got another special guest who's going to join us at the table.
Plus, would you send your son or your daughter to fight a war to defend Qatar? That is because the president just guaranteed their security.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Capitalism or socialism, it's getting harder to tell when it comes to Donald Trump's America because the president keeps making moves that have the government's hand firmly involved in a number of business dealings. The most recent is Trump just cut a deal with Pfizer to lower prescription drug prices. Pfizer will then sell the discounted medications directly to Americans on Trump's forthcoming website, you guessed it, TrumpRx.
Now, Democrats have for years tried to curb out of control drug costs, but with each legislative push, Republicans have screamed the S word. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Obamacare is a placeholder for Berniecare. Berniecare is socialism, full born.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): So far, prescription drug socialism is not working out too well.
TRUMP: Under what he wants to do, which will basically be socialized medicine.
GRAHAM: At the end of the day, this is the only process left available to stop a march towards socialism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at the table is CNN Global Economic Analyst Rana Foroohar. Rana, this has been, I think, a topic of discussion because there are so many ways in which Trump has been screaming socialism and communism, and yet he wants to manage this entire economy by himself.
RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: Yes.
PHILLIP: Putting his hand in literally everything, offering tariffs and then discounts on the tariffs, and then giving rebate checks to people, and then taking shares in private companies and so on and so forth. How do you see this?
FOROOHAR: So, I would say there's a lot of state capitalism going on here. And by that I mean, you know, it's kind of what China does. It's capitalism. There are markets and people are certainly making profits, but you have the state coming into sectors when it's considered to be of strategic interest. You know, you have the state, in some cases, censuring individual CEOs, you know, disappearing CEOs in the case of China. Here, you know, not that.
But I think that, in some ways, what both Donald Trump and certain candidates, I will say on the -- not candidates, but politicians on the left are doing is really responding to a populist sentiment. And I think that that's the connective tissue here. We are in a very populist moment. The rule books of both parties, I think, are being thrown out and politicians are looking to do whatever resonates with the hot button topics in the population at the time.
NAVARRO: I read last week that Trump was threatening to impose a huge tariff on foreign-patented drugs, which many Americans depend on. And that it was supposed to go into effect October 1st. Did that happen?
FOROOHAR: So, it's interesting. With the Trump RX plan, Pfizer, which would potentially be open to those tariffs, is supposedly getting an exemption in order to participate in this plan. So, tariffs -- and this is a great example of state capitalism, tariffs are being used as a tool, as a cudgel, as a sort of a carrot and a stick for companies as and when.
And you never know when the rules are going to change. You know, it could be one thing today, the next thing tomorrow, but this is about holding individual CEOs, individual companies, individual industries, in some cases, to heal.
NAVARRO: (INAUDIBLE) 100 percent tariff on Ozempic, we're all going to get fat again.
PHILLIP: I mean, and everybody is operating at the whim of Donald Trump. I mean, but, you know, it was not even just a little more than a year ago when Kamala Harris was campaigning on combating price gouging at grocery prices. This is what Donald Trump said in response to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Comrade Kamala announced that she wants to institute socialist price controls. You saw that. Never worked before. Never, ever worked.
Is this is communist. This is Marxist. This is fascist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, look, if you're a Democrat, you're probably saying, you know what, yes, he should be negotiating drug prices. They've been asking for that for many, many years. And every time, Republicans called it socialism. So, now it's not socialism because Trump's doing it?
AIDALA: Well, if you're a Democrat, if you're someone who needs these drugs, right, I think you're happy to hear this. Whether it's socialists, capitalists, these drug prices are out of control. A very close friend of the family called us the other day and said, the government just gives me, or my insurance, gives me the -- he's diabetic, type one diabetic, the absolute perfect amount of insulin that I need. Can you help me get some more insulin? So, if this is going to put this kid in a better position to get insulin for him at a lower price, I don't think anyone cares if it's socialist, capitalist.
[22:25:05]
This is a very unique area. We're not talking about milk. We're not talking about --
PHILLIP: But do you not acknowledge, Arthur, that, literally, the Democratic Party has been campaigning on this? I mean, I it's been decades. I mean, honestly, decades, Medicaid and allowing Medicaid to negotiate drug prices, bringing down the price of insulin. In fact, they actually legislated some of that in 2022. And Mitch McConnell literally called it socialism.
AIDALA: So, should we criticize someone who came around to with a good idea? I don't think so. I think it's great. I wish the government -- I wish more people in government were like, you know what? I campaigned on this, but now that I'm thinking about, that's actually a good idea.
PHILLIP: That's not what they're sayings. They're just pretending like it never happened. BORELLI: But let's also be clear about what Trump's doing. He's not setting a price control for a drug. He's using the stick.
PHILLIP: Yes, he is.
BORELLI: He's using the stick, the tariff. He's using the stick, the tariff.
PHILLIP: Here's why he's setting a price control.
BORELLI: He's not.
PHILLIP: Because he is saying to Pfizer, you cannot sell drugs more for more money in the United States than you do in Europe. Now, again, Democrats have been saying that for a long time, okay? But Trump is saying that Pfizer cannot sell essentially drugs for more than they sell it for in Europe. How is that not a price control?
BORELLI: Let me finish. Trump is using the stick, the tariff. And on the opposite end, the carrot is that the government is the biggest purchaser, the biggest consumer of pharmaceuticals through all of the various government health plans. She's shaking her head yes, because I'm right. He's using his position as the largest consumer. That's different from, say, Zohran Mamdani who --
PHILLIP: The whole point of what I'm trying to tell you --
BORELLI: Let me finish.
PHILLIP: -- is that Democrats, literally, that was a campaign slogan in 2016 and in 2020 to allow the government as the largest purchaser of drugs to use their leverage in the marketplace to negotiate those prices.
Now, sure, Trump is doing that but Trump and his allies used to call that a year ago today socialism.
BORELLI: You pointed out Kamala. I never got to finish my first point. So, just let me finish. That is different from what Zohran Mamdani is saying about rent freezes, right? Mamdani is saying, I'm going to appoint a board in New York City to regulate the price of rent. That is socialism.
PHILLIP: I didn't compare that to Mamdani. I don't think this is the same thing.
FOROOHAR: The truth of the matter is there's just like there's lots of different kinds of capitalism. There are actually lots of different kinds of socialism too. There's hard Soviet-style socialism where you don't -- you know, you don't have private property. Believe me, Donald Trump's not going to go for that. There's social democratic-style governments that most of Europe has, where there's a social safety net.
Again, actually, it's ironic because we're having a budget shutdown in part because there's no compromise around pulling of benefits, healthcare benefits, for poor people. You know, in Europe, with democratic socialism, that's not something that they have to worry about.
So, I think the names and the definitions here are less important than the fact that guess what's going to cause a lot of inflation next year, healthcare, and this is both parties, I think, are looking to this issue. We've just seen a big survey of major companies saying that they're expecting premiums to go up by 10 percent. Labor organizations are saying it's going to be more. This is populism. This is Donald Trump trying to get out ahead of that and hopefully say, look what I did and then scores --
NAVARRO: The timing of this Pfizer presser coming at the same time that we're in a shutdown because of ACA benefits being cut does not --
PHILLIP: I mean, something tells me that this prescription drug thing. Is not going to counteract people seeing premium increases that are 50 percent, 75 percent more than they were paying before. I mean, this is thousands of dollars that people are going to be shelling out on a monthly basis.
HINOJOSA: Yes. It's not only thousands of dollars they're going to be shelling out on healthcare but overall costs are going up and the economy is not in a great place right now either.
And so when Donald Trump has promised to bring down costs, there hasn't been one thing that he has done in his nine months of being in office that will actually do that. They haven't -- people who haven't felt it yet. And so I find it interesting that he wouldn't jump to the opportunity to work with Democrats to try to bring down healthcare costs because at least he can -- come next November, he can say, listen guys, I did this and take a victory lap.
PHILLIP: I will say, though you know, when you listen to Leader Thune over in the Senate, it sounds like they're aware that they're going to have to deal with this at some point, right, because it's a huge problem, yes.
FOROOHAR: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, one thing I will say I do find kind of encouraging, although, again, it's something that they wouldn't cop to around, say, the semiconductor industry, when you create a demand signal, when you use the purchasing power of government to harness a demand signal, Biden tried to do it quite a lot, other Democrats have tried, that's a good thing. It does bring down prices. And it would be wonderful if Republicans would embrace that idea.
PHILLIP: Well, maybe they will now. We'll see.
Rana Foroohar, thank you very much as always for joining us.
Next for us. It's a country that Republicans say defends Hamas. So, why did Donald Trump just promise that the United States will defend Qatar if they're attacked?
[22:30:04] MAGA is livid about that tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, an extraordinary move by the United States President, Donald Trump, just made a pledge to defend a nation he once called a funder of terrorism. And it's making MAGA angry.
[22:35:00]
The President extended a security guarantee to Qatar, declaring that the United States will regard any attack against the nation as, quote, "a threat to the peace and security of the United States itself". His ally, Laura Loomer, isn't mincing words. "I don't want to die for Qatar," she says on social media. "Do you?"
Now remember, Israel apologized this week for a strike targeting Hamas in Doha. And Kmele is back with us at the table now. This is quite a turnabout. The "America First" president now offering Article five- like security guarantees to Qatar, of all places?
KMELE FOSTER, "TANGLE" EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Yeah, I mean, this is a bit of foreign policy kabuki theater here. I mean, the President isn't really committing himself to doing much. The language is very much parsed. The authority to do this kind of thing doesn't really rest with the presidency. So, what they've actually drafted here is, yeah, kind of, sort of, if something happens, we might do something. We will take every possible step, maybe even take some sort of military action.
This can't be taken seriously. And I suspect Qatar knows that. I don't know that most voters know that. But it is theater. Whether or not the President should be engaged in this kind of
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Why would he -- I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- is it that -- I mean, I agree with you. He doesn't have the legal authority to do this. But he's trying to do it anyway, A. And B, why would he even say something like this without the buy-in from the United States Congress, which is the only entity that is authorized to enter into treaties?
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Is that a real question?
FOSTER: This has been the way they have conducted business since January.
PHILLIP: I mean, you're saying that this is sort of community theater, but I'm just saying that he's actually doing it. I don't think you can dismiss it for that reason.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: He's issuing a statement. There's a pronouncement of sorts. There is nothing to cause it to be enforced and there should be no real expectation that they will actually enforce this. And again, I think you're imperiling perhaps the credibility of the United States to some degree.
You're perhaps making yourself look a bit ridiculous because I think it is transparently clear that this doesn't actually have any sort of force. Why does the President do stuff like this? Because theatrics are a tremendously important attribute of everything that they do. They do things to get reactions.
(CROSSTALK)
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: -- of course, and crypto and the plane.
FOSTER: Sure.
HINOJOSA: He feels like he owes them something.
FOSTER: Yeah.
HINOJOSA: And so, my question is that what happens, you know -- Israel -- Hamas, and what happens if like what is the U.S.' role in that is next time that happens are they going to intercept? Like what is the role of the U.S. here on out and why did he do it? And it's, he did this because of personal gain. And I mean it's just the corruption in this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You know --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Before you jump in, Ana, because at the White House today, Karoline Leavitt was asked about the President's son-in-law Jared Kushner who has both been making a lot of money in the Middle East and also negotiating foreign policy in the Middle East. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: How did the White House decide that it is appropriate for Jared Kushner to be working on matters that involve Qatar, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, three countries that combined have given him more than $2.5 billion for his investment firm?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think it's frankly despicable that you're trying to suggest that it's inappropriate for Jared Kushner, who is widely respected around the world, and has great trust in relationships with these critical partners in these countries --
(END OF CLIP) PHILLIP: It's despicable to point out the very clear conflict, financial conflict, that is on full display for the whole world to see.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, Biden is somewhere saying, hold my beer.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
NAVARRO: I mean, you know, the level of hypocrisy on practically every point is simply astounding. But in this in particular, because of the -- what I thought was justifiable questioning of Hunter Biden, this in particular really should stick in Americans' craw because the amount of money, if you compare the Hunter Biden thing to this, it's just like there's no comparison.
But I want to go back to the point that he made where you were saying that we shouldn't take him seriously on the Qatar thing. Where we should take him seriously, and I think it has not gotten enough attention, is the 20 billion with a B, bailout that U.S. -- Trump has apparently offered Milei his, you know, buddy, down in Argentina.
So, I guess now MAGA means "Make Argentina Great Again" because at a time when they're cutting SNAP benefits, when there's no money for ACA subsidies for Americans, when farmers are declaring bankruptcy at record rates, we are going to bail out that dysfunctional Argentinian government to the tune of $20? I wonder how MAGA feels about that.
PHILLIP: And we didn't get to it in the last segment. But I mean, they're going to bail out soybean farmers, while at the same time bailing out Argentina who is now allowing China to buy cheaper soy beans --
NAVARRO: Exactly.
PHILLIP: -- from Argentina than they buy from American farmers. So, all of this is kind of like Trump just doing whatever he wants to moving the pieces on the chessboard.
(CROSSTALK)
[22:40:05]
PHILLIP: But on this Qatar thing, I do think that -- he's going to run into some problems with MAGA because -- let me just play what Ted Cruz said. He -- I should preface this by saying I don't think he has any proof of any of this. But here's the connection that he is making. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP
SEN. TED CRUZ (R) TEXAS: Antifa doesn't rise up organically. It is paid for and here's what we must do. Follow the money. How much of Antifa is paid for by Qatar? How much of it is paid for by Iran? How much of it is paid for by Communist China? And how much of it is paid for by left-wing billionaires like George Soros and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, I don't know. Is Qatar on the same line as Iran and Communist China? Or are they on the same line as NATO?
(CROSSTALK)
JOE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: Well, they're certainly down on the same line as Iran and Communist China. We've had a military base, the largest in the Middle East since 2006 there. We've had six defense cooperation agreements since 2012. Obama was the first person to sign defense cooperation --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Right. But MAGA seems confused.
BORELLI: My point is --
PHILLIP: They're confused.
BORELLI: -- if this part of the bigger conflict resolution between Israel and the Palestinian state in Gaza, then this is a good thing because we have had generations, 30 years since Bill Clinton was stood up by Yasser Arafat of ineffective policy in resolving this conflict. Now, we're at the precipice of perhaps a final resolution to where the people of Gaza can go on in peace, the people of Israel can go on in peace, if this is somehow connected to that deal which we're not sure if it is, probably it is.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: No.
BORELLI: -- I am in favor of it. I am in favor of it.
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: Well, so, there was a deal -- if there's a deal, Trump cannot hold back on a deal.
(CROSSTALK)
HNOJOSA: And as soon as there is a deal, Trump will go out there and he is the first person to announce it, even if the ink is not dry.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That is, in fact, what he did.
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: And -- exactly --
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: -- that there was a deal when one of the parties was not -- involved.
HINOJOSA: Yes, and I don't -- he has claimed that he has closed a deal at various times and I am not sure, like, at this point, no one believes him.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah.
BORELLI: Are you rooting for the deal or not?
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Arthur.
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: Yes, I am rooting for a deal, but I don't believe that Trump will deliver it.
(CROSSTALK)
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is very delicate stuff, right? This whole Middle East thing that no one's been able to solve. I think the only thing, Abby, that would justify what President Trump did is if he was playing a chess game, that this was one of the pieces of the chess board that he had to move to then allow other things to flow, because it doesn't make a lot of sense that he's kind of pounding his chest over this particular thing.
Going back to Jared Kushner for a second, I actually think it's refreshing that we know he's making all of this money.
(LAUGHTER)
AIDALA: How is Chuck Schumer, who has been in government his whole life, having hundreds of tens of millions of dollars? It is absolutely --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. Arthur, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this.
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: People in government make money all the time behind the scenes. All the time.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Is this the chessboard? Is this the chessboard? Here's how much Trump stands to gain from deals in the Middle East just in the last year -- $500 million in Oman, $555 million in Jeddah, Riyadh another 500 million, a Trump Tower in Dubai, 500 million, a Trump International Golf Club, $3 billion is the potential cost.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Yes, but the grift we know.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: The grift is --
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: You know what? But we didn't know --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: You know why the grift is in public? Because there is no oversight in Congress. Nobody. None of those Republicans that called Hunter Biden to testify are calling Jared Kushner.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: In any of those projects you put on the board, can anyone at this table give credible evidence that there is a corrupt deal that brought that deal about?
PHILLIP: It's not -- I didn't -- hold on, hold on. Let me just -- let me answer your question, Joe.
BORELLI: It's a business.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Because I --
NAVARRO: Okay, should Congress call for investigations and oversight on those?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That the bar is not necessarily corruption. The bar is, are they doing business? Look, the President and his family benefiting off of the ability to make policy that benefits their financial well- being. They want to outlaw Congress people trading stay stocks. And then we don't care whether or not there's a $500 million real estate deal being negotiated at the same time that these very people are making --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Joe. I mean, are you worried about that?
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: You're injecting innuendo.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Do you worry about the stock trading? BORELLI: I do. And I agree with --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: No.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: So then why don't we have congressional --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: Biden was not disclosing people when he was the president.
PHILLIP: At the very least -- at the very least, would you say that we ought to -- that there ought to be some guardrails. You know, because in the first Trump term, Trump said, oh, I'm going to put all my stuff in a trust and I'm not involved in it. There was none of that this time. He's got Don Jr. and Eric Trump at the White House calling him about crypto every way.
[22:45:00]
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: It's brazen. It is brazen. And what is -- the height of absurdity here is to suggest that the Hunter Biden thing is somehow worse in some sort of way. Hunter Biden would blush the audacity of these people who --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: Tell me what crime he has committed. Name the crime.
FOSTER: Let me finish. I seem to remember some saying this several times. Hunter Biden would blush because of the audacity of what's being perpetrated here. It is not just the scale of the corruption here. Again, open, transparent corruption. And it is the appearance of wrongdoing. They are certainly doing deals -- they are certainly doing deals that benefit them personally. That is the point. You are elected to govern.
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: Are you saying that these deals --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: You're saying that the scale is so big but you can't name one.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: So you're just taking a taste. Is that what you're saying?
HINOJOSA: So, are you saying that he is not currently financially benefiting off the --
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: Is that what you're saying?
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: What about the Clinton Foundation? What about Bill Clinton?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right.
HINOJOSA: Hold on.
PHILLIP: Just one second, okay? Very last word and then we have to go.
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: You're comfortable -- you're comfortable with him financially benefiting and his entire family financially benefiting in millions, almost billions of dollars from the presidency?
BORELLI: Yes, the family has a business.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Okay.
(LAUGHTER)
HINOJOSA: You guys have no shame, man.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Coming up next for us --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is planning widespread lie detector tests to crack down on Pentagon leakers. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:51:13]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Pete Hegseth's war on leakers intensifies. "The Washington Post" reports that the Pentagon is planning widespread and random polygraph tests to root out leakers at the Department. All military service members, civilian employees, and contract workers will also have to sign a non-disclosure agreement to make sure that they aren't releasing non-public information. Well --
AIDALA: That makes sense. I mean, that makes sense. I was born in Fort Hamilton Army Base. My father was a captain. You're very safe in Fort Hamilton Army Base, or any Army Base, but you know why? You don't have the Fourth Amendment to protect you. When you live on an army base, you're a member of the military, they can come into your apartment at any time and search your residence.
That's part of being in the military. So, you're giving up certain freedoms, but you're getting certain things of protection. These are people who are surrounded with top secret information. And, you know, this is the -- I have a lot of problems with certain things that Pete does and says.
NAVARRO: You mean like leaked?
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: -- is this protected -- I think it helps protect us to make sure people aren't telling people things they shouldn't be doubting.
HINOJOSA: So, I think there are two things. They just said non-public information. They did not say top secret information. Leaking top secret information is a federal crime and people should be prosecuted just like Pete Hegseth leaked secret information over Signal, but that was not investigated.
With this said, I think that this just shows a general distrust that the administration has throughout the federal government. And now we're seeing in -- this at the Pentagon. I believe that people will leave because of this. This just -- you are going to be under a microscope at all times. If you go talk to someone and say, you know what Pete Hegseth said today, when drinking at a bar, they could go get a polygraph test. And if for some reason they told that to a reporter, I mean, this is like --
PHILLIP: And maybe that is what this is all about. It's all about Pete Hegseth. I mean, there is a sort of air of paranoia to the whole thing, and that's been kind of -- a lot of reporting has been talking about Pete Hegseth and the way that he runs the Department. But look, every Pentagon Defense Secretary doesn't want leaks, right? Nobody wants leaks, but they've never taken this step before. So why -- why now for this --
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: I mean, the intelligence community has always had, you know, you use the polygraph to try to confirm that people aren't leaking stuff like that. The prosecutor --
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: But on top secret information.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: Again, sure, but the prosecutorial ability -- you could prosecute people for doing that sort of thing. All of that is fine and above board. I actually think this goes back to what we were talking about in the last segment. It's the unseemly conduct of the administration in a variety of contexts and their willingness to go after people for kind of nakedly partisan reasons or political reasons.
The fact that they have a history of doing that is precisely the sort of thing that is likely to create an air of suspicion about a policy that, quite frankly, could be totally fine. Most of the remarks even in that speech that Pete gave that a lot of people have talked about, generally fine. But again, it's just air of suspicion that they have created for themselves.
PHILLIP: Is this about shutting down dissent in the Pentagon?
BORELLI: I think this is one of those instances where this is something that's non-controversial, but because it's something that the Trump administration is doing. Everyone's going to go crazy about it.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I don't think it's not controversial to polygraph everybody inside the Pentagon. This is -- we're hundreds of thousands of people.
BORELLI: If you join the U.S. military, you give up certain rights to be part of the U.S. military, I'm okay with you occasionally being given a polygraph to make sure your priorities are ignored. That's okay.
NAVARRO: Okay, tell you what, I have an idea. Let's start the polygraph with Pete Hegseth himself. What always gets to me is the hypocrisy and the lack of self-awareness. So yesterday he gives this big speech, made for TV speech, where he's making these generals and admirals -- he's fat-shaming them, he's telling them that it is embarrassing to see fat generals and fat troops.
[22:55:01]
BORELLI: That hurt, by the way. It hurt me.
(LAUGHTER)
NAVARRO: While Donald Trump is the commander in chief. He is saying that bearded men are beardos while J.D. Vance is the vice president. And now, he wants to people polygraph tests to go against leaking when he leaked classified information on Signalgate.
PHILLIP: All right, we got to leave it there.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Okay. Can we say hypocrisy?
HINOJOSA: Hypocrisy.
PHILLIP: Everybody, thank you very much. Coming up, the Trump administration says firings are imminent as the government shutdown ticks on. A top Democrat joins CNN, just ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:10]
PHILLIP: Before we go, a quick programming note. Take a trip with Tony Shalhoub to discover how bread connects us. The new CNN original series, "Tony Shalhoub Breaking Bread", premieres Sunday at 9 o'clock right here on CNN. And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
