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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Shutdown Standoff Intensifies, Likely to Extend Next Week; Immigrants, Healthcare, and the Shutdown's Real Debate; Trump Essentially Tells Congress U.S. at War With Cartels. Trump Admins Says U.S. In Armed Conflict With Cartels; Pope Leo Comments On Human Rights Issues. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 02, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, as the shutdown becomes a meme fight, is the GOP's celebration giving the wrong impression to fed up Americans?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: There could be firings, and that's their fault, and it could also be other things.
PHILLIP: Plus, the no wars president tells Congress, the U.S. is in the middle of one with drug cartels. But are his boat strikes crossing a legal line?
Also, some of America's biggest comedians condemn the attacks on free speech ironically in Saudi Arabia.
And a fall from MAGA's grace, the honeymoon between conservatives and the new pope appears to be over after Leo critiques their claims.
Live at the table, Van Lathan, Betsy McCaughey, Ashley Allison, Phil Williams and Terry Moran.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
It is night two of the government shutdown, and there seems to be no end in sight. Both sides are dug in as thousands of federal workers worry about whether they'll have a job after the standoff. But tonight, we're going to have a real debate about the real issues that are at the center of all of this, the one in which Republicans claim the Democrats are demanding government subsidized healthcare for undocumented immigrants.
Now, there is a lot of nuance here, so stay with me -- follow me here. Big picture, their claim isn't true. The Democratic proposal does not explicitly and directly provide free healthcare for anyone here illegally. According to healthcare.gov, undocumented immigrants can't get marketplace healthcare coverage, and they're also ineligible for other federal programs, like Medicaid and Medicare and CHIP. And the Democrat plan does not suddenly make them eligible.
So, here's what Dems are proposing. First, they want to preserve certain Obamacare subsidies so that millions of Americans can afford healthcare. Those credits are set to expire at the end of the year. And if they're not extended, premiums could skyrocket by more than 75 percent on average.
And here is the point of contention. Democrats also want to reverse recent Medicaid cuts and other provisions that were enacted under Trump's big, beautiful bill. Republicans are saying that's going to give illegal immigrants free healthcare. Democrats do want to undo portions of Trump's bill that narrowed the subsidy of eligibility for certain immigrants with legal status, legal status, like refugees, asylum seekers, and people with pending or approved visa applications. That's according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. But those are not -- are non-citizens, but they're not illegal aliens. That's a key point.
Republicans also say the Democrats want to undo their attempt to close what they're calling a loophole. They argue that some states are using federal matching funds to pay for Medicaid costs, which allows them to use state funds to pay for care for the undocumented.
All right, but here is the other key argument that Republicans are making, and it's that Medicaid may help reimburse hospitals for providing care to undocumented immigrants. Listen to the vice president talk about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: If you're an American citizens, you've been to a hospital in the last few years, you probably notice that wait times are especially large and very often somebody who's there in the emergency room waiting is an illegal alien, very often a person who can't even speak English. Why do those people get healthcare benefits at hospitals paid for by American citizens? The answer is a decision made by the Biden administration that the Trump administration, working with Congressional Republicans, undid. We turned off that money spigot to healthcare funding for illegal aliens. The Democrats in their legislative texts want to turn it back on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now for starters, that is a different issue from the subsidies for insurance coverage that, again, does not go to illegal immigrants. But more importantly, hospitals providing care to anyone in their waiting room, regardless of their immigration status, is not because of a decision made by the Biden administration. That's been the law since 1986, when Chuck's notes, Ronald Reagan was president.
[22:05:01]
So, is Vance arguing here that hospital funds should be contingent on whether or not they refuse lifesaving care to illegal immigrants? Is that really the argument? To change that they would need to do more than just tinker with the federal funding scheme. They'd need to actually change that law that is almost 30 years old, the one that's there to protect all Americans insured or uninsured.
And now Republicans are also correct to point out that many Democrats, including the party's heavyweights have in the past called for care for all immigrants. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Raise your hand if your government plan would provide coverage for undocumented immigrants.
PETE BUTTIGIEG, FORMER SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION: We do ourselves no favors by having 11 million undocumented people in our country be unable to access healthcare.
JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: You cannot let people who are sick, no matter where they come from, no matter what their status go uncovered. You can't do that.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): When I say all, I also mean the undocumented in this country.
KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Let me just be very clear about this. I'm opposed to any policy that would deny in our country any human being from access to public safety, public education or public health, period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, that's a debate to have, right? It's a worthwhile debate, should they have access to healthcare or not. But whatever you think of that, whatever you think of what the Democrats on that stage thought or desired, that position is actually not in this current proposal.
So, I mean, the question that I've had all week is, is this just an easy way for Republicans to say, well, healthcare illegals, and it kind of washes away the issue because it's too complicated for people to understand? I mean, Betsy?
FMR. LT. GOV. BETSY MCCAUGHEY (R-NY): Well, I'd like to point out that, of course, nobody on this table, I'm sure, and probably nobody watching, would want a human being to suffer or die without healthcare, die on the street, for example. But emergency Medicaid in this country has been very abused since Ronald Reagan's law was put into effect, very, very abused. We now spend about $18 billion with a B on emergency Medicaid. I'll give you an example because I did a --
PHILLIP: Well, let me put that in context. Emergency Medicaid --
MCCAUGHEY: 2 percent. It's 2 percent.
PHILLIP: It's 1 -- it's less than 1 percent. Less than 1 percent of Medicaid spending is in emergency Medicaid. And on top of that let me just -- a little bit more context. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, immigrants, especially undocumented immigrants are less likely than citizens to utilize emergency medical care.
And so I would like to -- hey, I would like to know, do you know how much emergency medical care is being utilized by illegal immigrants or just Americans who don't have health insurance because health insurance is so expensive in this country? Do you know?
MCCAUGHEY: Yes. I get -- I did an investigative piece for the New York Post on this, and I talked to Evan Levine, for example, a cardiologist at a Bronx Hospital, and he told me that he had just treated a man who flew in from Trinidad. He knew pacemaker battery was about to run out. So, for the cost of airfare, he flew into JFK, took a cab directly to the hospital, got treated free of charge under emergency Medicaid.
What I'm saying is it's a good principle for somebody who's truly here in an emergency.
PHILLIP: What does that illustrate?
MCCAUGHEY: It illustrates --
PHILLIP: It's, A, one example. B, presumptively, that man, if he flew into JFK has resources, he came in on a visa and has resources, so that's not an illegal immigrant. So, I don't understand how that --
MCCAUGHEY: I'm referring -- I'm explaining the fact that emergency Medicaid is very abused and it is galling to Americans, as you heard before, who were in the emergency room. They're trying to figure out among their families how they're going to pay for the ambulance, how they're going to pay for the emergency care, and then they see somebody get it for free, because they claim they have no insurance.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's -- the medical bills are expensive. That's not because of illegal immigrants. That's the claim that people are making. Healthcare is expensive. Healthcare needs to improve in this country. There's a way to do it, but the fault of it is not illegal immigrants. When people go to hospitals and have to wait hours in the emergency room, you know why? Because when you pass a bill to close rural hospitals, you have to drive and it consolidates the amount of patients. When doctors have to work extremely long hours, you know, my mom just had a heart procedure, the doctor had to do 50 heart catheterizations in one day.
Do you think -- that's not, because, let me tell you, not one person who did a heart catheterization on that day was an illegal immigrant.
MCCAUGHEY: I have no idea. But the question is should people --
ALLISON: I'm not finished. Thank you. The -- Abby's question was, is this a way that Republicans are just using illegal immigrants to deflect the conversation?
[22:10:04] And the answer is, yes.
MCCAUGHEY: No, it is not.
ALLISON: It's yes. Because illegal immigrants are not the reason why our healthcare system is broken.
PHIL WILLIAMS, RADIO HOST, RIGHTSIDE RADIO: Yes. It's not deflection at all. In fact, I brought receipts. So, here's the CMS, the Center for Medicaid and Medicare Services right here with their press release earlier this year saying they were having to increase their oversight on states like California, who were abusing Medicaid on and classifying it as an EUSA, an emergency system, when it wasn't.
You've got the average state spends 5 percent of its Medicaid roughly on emergency services. California, 35 to 40 percent. Why would that be? Because California passed a state law that says we will fund Medicaid for illegals and then, oh, by the way, we'll raise our provider taxes. And then, oh, by the way, we use that as a match to draw down federal funds. And they're using this whole cavitation process --
MCCAUGHEY: An accounting trick to put it on the taxpayers.
WILLIAMS: (INAUDIBLE) California's loophole is abusive.
PHILLIP: Listen, and we addressed this in -- I addressed that in the monologue that I just read. But the bigger issue that is at hand here is that, come the end of this year, regular Americans, not illegal immigrants, and 90, probably 99 percent of those people, not immigrants at all, are just going to see their premiums, their co- pays, their deductibles go up.
WILLIAMS: Which expires later, which expires at the end of the year.
PHILLIP: I know, I just said that. At the end of the year --
MCCAUGHEY: Totally different issue.
PHILLIP: Well, hold on, it's not a totally different issue because that is the issue that is at hand there.
MCCAUGHEY: No, there are two issues, two separate issues. One is what to do with the subsidies for the Affordable Care Act. They were emergency increases and now they want to make them permanent. And the other is what to do about people, like people with temporary protected status, temporary parolees, people who --
PHILLIP: I'm glad that you said --
MCCAUGHEY: -- didn't wait for five years to be eligible for Medicaid.
PHILLIP: Hold on. I'm glad that you said that because you also just illustrated another really important part of this. That issue that you just raised about the loophole with blue states is also not at the heart of this issue. WILLIAMS: It is.
PHILLIP: The --
WILLIAMS: It absolutely is.
PHILLIP: The subsidies that are eligible -- the eligibility for subsidies, for people who are here, who are immigrants, who have TPS, who have those other statuses, those are not illegal immigrants.
WILLIAMS: But, Abby, you're --
MCCAUGHEY: Let me point out that they would have been considered illegal immigrants.
WILLIAMS: (INAUDIBLE) aside from the fact that page 57 of the Democrat-proposed funding bill, Section 2271, repeals the language that would deal with the loophole. Why would they even have that in there? What's the purpose of having there? Because they want it back in place.
TERRY MORAN, VETERAN JOURNALIST: But not because of illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants cannot present and say, give me healthcare unless they're dying, unless they --
WILLIAMS: If you turn an emergency room into a free clinic, it happens that way.
PHILLIP: I don't think you can prove, and I don't think Republicans have proven this, that what they're characterizing as a loophole, which is basically saying, we're giving you money and you're using the savings to provide other services, that would be true theoretically of all kinds of different federal costs.
WILLIAMS: Well, I announced it the other day on an interview on this network. I mean, it's absolutely what he said.
VAN LATHAN, PODCAST CO-HOST, HIGHER LEARNING: You know what word we haven't used in having this conversation? Death, die, people dying. I want you guys to imagine a kid playing with a soccer ball kid has a seizure. Parents grab the kid, rush the kid to the hospital. Kid gets to the hospital. Parents are worried sick kid's about to die. Somebody runs out and said, where were you born?
(CROSSTALKS)
LATHAN: Hold on, hold on. That's exactly what you're arguing.
MCCAUGHEY: No, they're not. They're not.
LATHAN: Because in your perfect world, that's what has to happen.
MCCAUGHEY: That is not true.
LATHAN: In your perfect world, that's what has to happen.
MCCAUGHEY: That's an accusation I reject.
LATHAN: What has to happen in your perfect world is we have to do that (ph).
PHILLIP: There's a reason that we played that J.D. Vance sound, right, because he was the one who, when was asked about this issue, brought up what happens in emergency rooms. He said that it's not fair that when you go into an emergency room, there are undocumented immigrants that get healthcare that is paid for by taxpayers. So that's the scenario that Van just brought up.
MORAN: Can I just say he did not say that? He did not say that. He said, people who did not speak our language. You cannot -- it was a comment unworthy of the vice president of the United States. What about these people who are in the emergency room, who look different, who sound different, and they're getting healthcare before me and mine? That's what he said, trying to stir up the worst kind of emotions.
The CBO reported last month this whole problem is less than 1 percent of the cost of Medicaid. Now, you can say we should get after that 1 percent but it's less than 1 percent.
MCCAUGHEY: 1 percent of $900 billion is a lot of money.
MORAN: I'm not going to deny that. Money is tripling, doubling and tripling the premiums that people who get their insurance to the Affordable Care Act.
[22:15:04]
That's what Republicans are afraid of. It is why they're throwing up this --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I would say, I mean, look, there are no easy answers in this, right? If you are trying to save money, people are going to get hurt. But I think at the core of this is the question that I asked at the beginning, which is why can't you just tell the truth about the policy issues at hand? Why do we have to then -- why, Phil, why do Republicans have to just say, noun, verb, illegal immigrants, and then feel like the conversation ends? Why not explain to the American people that, you know what, your premiums are going to go up, and that's the cost of the big, beautiful bill?
WILLIAMS: Well, and I tell you what let's go back to what you just said a minute ago. Let's talk about the reality is just passed the clean C.R., the same one you voted for back in March. Why are we having to extend four weeks with $1.6 trillion in additional spending? Why would you stick that into a C.R.?
ALLISON: Here's the thing.
PHILLIP: I get it. But let's say they do that today, premiums are still going to go up. WILLIAMS: It's not hard.
PHILLIP: And are Republicans going to own that?
ALLISON: This is the thing, Abby.
PHILLIP: The premiums are still going to go up, right?
WILLIAMS: That's the regular order business.
MCCAUGHEY: The additional subsidies --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Just own the policy, right?
MCCAUGHEY: That's right.
PHILLIP: The policy is not -- has really nothing to do with undocumented immigrants. It has to do with just regular American issues.
ALLISON: Because people don't want their --
MCCAUGHEY: There are two issues, and you're trying to conflate them. But there are very two issues. One was that the Affordable Care Act provided additional subsidies during COVID. They were passed as temporary. Now, the Democrats want to make them permanent forever and the Republicans disagree. That's one issue. It's a legitimate conversation. How much of the tabs should be picked up by taxpayers?
The other one is about people coming into the country and getting healthcare right away at a large expense. And I agree, they're not all illegal, but, remember, under Joe Biden, several million people were brought in under temporary protective status and parole. They were equivalent to illegal in the sense that they didn't wait for five years, like other newcomers have to wait equivalent to be eligible for Medicaid.
MORAN: They're equivalents. So, now you get to rewrite the law because you don't like it.
MCCAUGHEY: No, I'm explaining what he did.
ALLISON: This is the reality. This is the reality. In 2024, when Democrats lost the election, we sat at this very table, maybe not this configuration of people, but I was told there was a mandate. The Republicans had a mandate that they were going to be able to govern and do whatever they want. We'll, do what you want. Pass the bill, but you can't, because you know why? It's because it's not popular. And when people actually find out --
WILLIAMS: We can't, because it takes 60. It takes 60.
ALLISON: But then it's not a mandate. Two things, those two things can be true. And if you don't have mandate, and if you don't have a mandate, then you have to negotiate. And if you don't negotiate, then you cannot govern. And if you cannot -- no. If you cannot govern, then you are not a leader.
MCCAUGHEY: They said, close down the government. It's extortion.
ALLISON: You just cannot govern.
PHILLIP: Just a final word on this, okay? Look, a few recent polls looking at who's to blame, it is interesting to me that despite all of this back and forth, most Americans say either Republicans or both sides equally. And so those are the numbers that we're going to continue to watch as this shutdown continues. And, unfortunately, I have to say the shutdown looks like it's going to continue because nobody's talking to each other right now.
MCCAUGHEY: Except for us.
PHILLIP: Except for us. Except for us.
The president essentially tells Congress that the U.S. is at war with cartels, but did he legally justify his strikes?
Plus, some of America's biggest comedians, like Dave Chappelle, are facing heat after performing in Saudi Arabia. We'll debate. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, the no wars president tells Congress that the United States is in the middle of one with drug cartels. A Pentagon noticed to Congress says smugglers for the cartels are unlawful combatants, and therefore the administration has legal justification for striking a boat off the coast of Venezuela. The U.S. military has carried out at least three strikes in the region over the last month, killing 17 people in total.
Now, Trump's notice to Congress only mentions one of those strikes leading to confusion and speculation. Now, at least one of the boats struck by the military last month was reportedly heading away from the U.S. when it was hit. And tonight, Venezuela says it detected five combat planes flying near its border, calling it a provocation.
Phil, you know, people in Venezuela, there have been some stories about this, are wondering if this is sort of like a predicate for regime change. And I don't know what it is, but I'm wondering are you satisfied with this kind of explanation for the strikes for this kind of offensive action in this region?
WILLIAMS: Freaking right, I am. The cartel's been in war with us for years. 187,000 people died in the last two years from drug overdoses brought in by the cartels. I don't think it's time to put up Tomahawk cruise missile into a drug lab in Colombia. I'm fine with that.
The reality is there are 55 times more people that died in the last two years on drug overdoses brought in by the narco traffickers who are less than non-state actor, like Al-Qaeda. And they are literally killing our people 55 times greater than what we saw on 9/11.
MCCAUGHEY: But don't you think the President should go to Congress and ask for a declaration of war against the cartels instead of doing this?
WILLIAMS: I don't because he already has. The War Powers Act gives him the authority.
PHILLIP: Don't you have to define what the cartels are?
MCCAUGHEY: Well, you can do that in your Declaration of War. Declaring war is not limited to declaring war against a nation state. There's nothing in the Constitution that says that.
[22:25:00]
PHILLIP: Yes, I get that, but don't you have to like actually really know who you're targeting?
WILLIAMS: There is nothing against --
MCCAUGHEY: Well, I think the president does, but it would be better if we have a declaration of war.
WILLIAMS: There is nothing against the president taking action against non-state actors who are already doing harm to the United States.
PHILLIP: So, listen, I agree with you. The drugs -- drugs are a huge problem. Here's what the Times says though about Venezuela specifically. Venezuela is not a major producer of cocaine but it serves as a transit hub for it. Venezuela plays virtually no role in the fentanyl trade. Fentanyl is almost entirely produced in Mexico. Its chemicals imported from China, that's according to the federal government. And Mexico is close to the U.S. market. So, Mexican cartels already control many fentanyl smuggling routes, and there's no proof that it is manufacturing or trafficked from Venezuela or anywhere in South America.
So, the thing that is killing Americans, that's driving that epidemic that you're talking about, Venezuela's got a lot of problems but that's not at the top of the list in terms of where the drugs are coming from.
WILLIAMS: No, but it's just a lot.
PHILLIP: I mean, that complicates the argument.
WILLIAMS: The parallels are so -- I mean, I don't know if we're going to see regime change or not. I don't think we are. Trump has said he has doesn't want regime change. But the parallels to what we saw in the Panama invasion in, what was that, 1989 are so similar. You had a dictator who was also the facilitator of a drug trafficking operation who was using the power of his own government to then harm the United States citizens. And Noriega and, I'll be honest with you, Maduro look a lot alike.
But the truth is the cartels were at war with us long before we finally struck back at them. It's long overdue.
MORAN: We keep defining war down. I'm with Betsy, declare it. Define it. Declare it.
MCCAUGHEY: Right, let's declare.
MORAN: Do it the constitutional way. You can get a lawyer to tell you that the sky is green and the grass is blue, okay. A lawyer can tell you that what's happening there is war under the non-international armed conflict laws, which were developed to handle Al-Qaeda, which originally were developed to handle civil wars, non-international. So, they just keep defining this thing down and you're empowering people you won't want to empower.
MCCAUGHEY: Yes. Because what if the Russians decide to drop something over Jeff Bezos' as yacht, or Mark Zuckerberg's, they've got some pretty big vessels, right, in the Mediterranean.
PHILLIP: Well, look, I mean, I can't speak to that. But, listen, one of the strikes where they said that they got the cartel the people who were smuggling drugs, The New York Times went down to Venezuela, talked to a woman who identified herself as the wife of one of the dead men. She said her husband was a fisherman with four children left for work one day and never came back.
Again, listen, I'm just asking the question. Do we have to know who these people are? Do we have to prove anything at all?
LATHAN: Okay, wow. You guys ever hear like just how cavalier we are about talking about like killing people? Like, it, you know, a tomahawk cruise missile, people die, they're going to die. And so what I'm saying is this, it's like they are --
WILLIAMS: Yes. Wars kill people and break things. That's the way -- that's the nature of wars.
LATHAN: Wars kill people and break things. That's the nature of war.
MCCAUGHEY: Drugs due to 108,000 last year, including --
LATHAN: I just hope you guys know you're about to give away the whole thing. I just hope that -- I hope everyone at home and everyone watching everywhere, you guys are about to give away the whole thing, the entire thing, the entire thing that you spent all time telling people that was a big deal to have due process, to investigate things, to pick your targets, to use American force when American force is necessary, to value human life, to not put people in harm's way. You're about to lose the whole thing.
And when I say you're lose, when I say you're about to lose the whole thing, this is what I mean. If you blindly go along with the church of Trump, whatever he says is appropriate to do, is appropriate to do, then what you do is you sign up for the church of everyone. Well, just be the church of Trump.
MCCAUGHEY: I didn't say that.
LATHAN: It'll be the church of the next guy and the church of the next guy and the church of the next person.
MCCAUGHEY: Why say go to Congress and get permission?
LATHAN: I'm telling you right now blowing away people in other countries, in other --
WILLIAMS: I don't know what that means.
LATHAN: Well, I'll tell you exactly what it means. What I'll tell you --
WILLIAMS: I've been to war twice. I've been to war twice. I'm the son of a veteran who went to war twice. I'm the grandson of a veteran who went to war three times. And I'm the father of a young Army officer right now.
LATHAN: I appreciate you, sir.
WILLIAMS: Iraqi war, Iraq and Afghanistan.
LATHAN: You went to Iraq and Afghanistan. Guess what? You should --
WILLIAMS: But the reality is --
LATHAN: You shouldn't have been there. You shouldn't have been there.
WILLIAMS: That's a whole another conversation.
LATHAN: It's not -- that's -- no, that's the conversation.
WILLIAMS: I'm not going to let you do that.
LATHAN: Oh, wait a second. No.
WILLIAMS: No, I won't let you do that. The reality is those who have been to war don't want it, but we will end it if we have to. That's where we are.
LATHAN: What I'm telling is, you shouldn't have been in Iraq because that's war.
WILLIAMS: That's not what we're talking about.
LATHAN: That is exactly what we're talking about.
WILLIAMS: Stay focused.
LATHAN: Every single generation, we have same conversation because you warmongers won't learn nothing.
WILLIAMS: There are people -- LATHAN: Every single generation, every single generation, we have the exact same conversation because you guys want to hammer when you a nail every 15 or 20 years.
(CROSSTALKS)
WILLIAMS: That absolutely means nothing.
PHILLIP: Just one second. Let me just -- I just want to give Phil just a moment because we do respect your service.
WILLIAMS: And I appreciate that.
PHILLIP: And -- but I think just to distill the conversation, the point Van is trying to make is that when political leaders make decisions to send men and women to war, people like you go to war, and people like you sometimes don't come home from war. And I do think even as you are committed to finishing whatever we start, isn't that a fair conversation to have with our political leaders?
PHIL WILLIAMS, "JUST RIGHT PODCAST" HOST: Absolutely, and I think we're having it. But the idea that Van was espousing a moment ago that we shouldn't have gone to Iraq, that's nothing what we're talking about. What we're talking about right now is there are people killing Americans, and for us to say, you can invade our house and assault our family, and we won't say boo about it, that's wrong. This is not a war we started. This is a war that we're going to finish, though. That's the difference. Peace and strength.
(CROSSTALK)
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, Ashley. Last word to Ashley.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I agree if we're going to go to war, I think Congress should declare, you know, should pass the resolution. But I also want to say is that Trump ran on being the person that was going to end all these wars and I feel like every month we're talking about striking this country, striking that country. And I just, it just feels like folks want to have it both ways. He's the president that is ending war, that is bringing peace together.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: He's also due to get a peace prize.
(CROSSTALK)
VAN LATHAN, "HIGHER LEARNING" PODCAST CO-HOST: He is not getting a peace prize.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: And then -- and then, well, and it's like --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: -- let's go to --
LATHAN: -- peace prize but it's not happening. Call them. Get them on the phone.
WILLIAMS: That's about the way they handle --
LATHAN: You're like, get them on the phone right now. I'll tell them. Don, you're not getting it.
WILLIAMS: President Obama got it in six weeks in office.
LATHAN: Well, probably, no.
PHILLIP: All right. Good talk.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Coming up, comedians making jokes about free speech in a country where dissent can mean a jail sentence or worse. We're going to discuss the big stars getting heat for performing at a Saudi comedy fest. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:36:32]
PHILLIP: Tonight, some of the biggest comedians in the world are cracking jokes about free speech in a country where what you say could literally land you in jail. Dave Chappelle is just one of the headliners at the Riyadh Comedy Festival in Saudi Arabia. And this weekend, he told the crowd there, it's easier to talk here than it is in America. Sure, Chappelle's joke was probably hyperbole but it underscores the hotly contested moment happening right here in America over what freedom of expression actually means. But we know what that means in Saudi Arabia.
The government's crackdown on dissent has only intensified in the last decade, with journalists and activists getting arrested for online postings critical of the government, and in some cases, even executed for speaking out. A number of human rights groups have condemned the Comedy Festival, arguing that the event is way to distract from abuses. Even some comedians are calling out their fellow stand-ups.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC MARON, COMEDIAN: I mean, how do you even promote that? You know, like, from the folks that brought you in 9-11.
(LAUGHTER) MARON: I mean, the same guy that's going to pay them is the same guy that paid that guy to bonesaw Jamal Khashoggi and put him in a (BEEP) suitcase. But don't let that stop the yucks. It's going to be a good time.
(LAUGHTER)
MARON: Full disclosure, I was not asked to perform at the Riyadh Comedy Festival, so it's kind easy for me to take the high road on this one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY MORAN, VETERAN JOURNALST: It's genius.
PHILLIP: It's facts, right? Like, I mean, on all of it, including the very last part of it, which is actually maybe what this is all about. People are being offered huge sums of money to come and do this and they're saying yes.
BETSY MCCAUGHEY (R) FORMER NEW YORK LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: And they're signing contracts that they will not criticize the government or commit blasphemy, or criticize religion --
PHILLIP: Right.
MCCAUGHEY: -- while they're on the stage.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
LATHAN: You know, it's odd and I feel odd criticizing it and I'll be honest with you because a couple of weeks ago there was a gigantic boxing fight. It was Canelo Alvarez versus Terence Crawford. I watched it. It was partly put on by Turki Al-Sheikh who is a Saudi Arabian prince, Riyadh season cards, any boxing fan who's been watching it for the last couple years, live golf, all of this stuff.
There is a goal here. And that goal is to normalize Saudi Arabia and parts of its economy so that they can participate in more parts of the economy, the world economy than just oil. So, anyone that's taking part of that just know that there is a political aim from the Saudi Arabian regime. And I can't like sit here and criticize everyone that went to the day. It's not something that I would have done, but I sat down and watched that fight on Netflix a couple of weeks ago.
PHILLIP: Can I just argue that that's a little different? I mean, I think one of the reasons that this has kind of rubbed some people the wrong way is because to what Betsy was saying, the free speech part of it, you can't apply that to Saudi Arabia, right?
MCCAUGHEY: No.
MORAN: You can't, for sure. I remember the first time went to Saudi Arabia, a friend and I were there and we committed the crime of saying a Christian prayer together, because you aren't allowed to do that. We were in our hotel room, we weren't offending anybody, but that's actually against the law to do such a thing. That said, I don't know, comedy is corrosive. Free speech is corrosive. And I just think we would all be better off if presidents and sheikhs stop telling comedians what they can and cannot say as a joke,
[22:40:01]
MCCAUGHEY: Amen.
MORAN: -- or where they can say it. Let the comedy come out and let it do its thing. Because there's no way the dictators can stop.
ALLISON: I would extend it to let everybody say what they want. Not just the comedians. I think that we're in this moment because of what just happened to Jimmy Kimmel two weeks ago that it's like, that comedians need to get this exception around free speech. No. Free speech is like one of the best principles of America. Everyone should get it -- be able to say it whether you like what someone has to say or not.
I think that the -- Van, your point about, you know, I can't criticize because I've watched the fight. I think we live in a world right now where we all are like walking contradictions of so many things that we do in life and we sometimes are almost a little self-righteous to the point where like I'm going to hold myself to a standard and call myself a better human or American.
Life is complicated and, you know, I always say I can't carry every cross for some, like you know, I do some things that some people might not, you know. And so, I'm only human. I think the interesting thing is if they were to go there and they didn't sign those agreements not to do, to limit their speech, and they were something were to happen like they were to get arrested.
I actually think that Americans would wake up in a certain way about how important free speech is. Because when people are like, it's America. America's almost like nothing is going to break in America, even though some of us are saying it's shattering. When it happens on somebody else's land, it's easier for us to look and be like that.
LATHAN: We don't want to do that.
ALLISON: We don't want to do that.
PHILLIP: But I think that's the hypocrisy of it all is that it's easy for us to condemn other people, but it's also easy for us to look the other way when there are crackdowns happening right now here in this country on speech.
ALLISON: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: Yeah, but didn't -- I mean, it didn't need-- I mean me laughter breaks down barriers. It does. And I think on the one hand, I get what you're saying. You know, you watch Netflix, "The Box" (ph), but at the same time isn't it neat though that Saudi Arabia is bringing in American comedians and having something to laugh at and the barriers that might break down. And I do think there's worse than that. I do think that. And I, you know, I get it they had to sign a waiver, okay, it's also a cultural thing.
But the fact is we're watching a barrier broken down and we don't know what that barrier broken down might lead to the next barrier being broken down and the laughter actually created a bridge that we could walk across. So, I think there's something there.
LATHAN: There's one part of it we haven't talked about and that's the money. And the reason why --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: He's able to do what he's doing and live golf is what was able to get the players off the PGA Tour is because the amount of money that the Saudi Arabians can pay you for what it is that they want you to do is almost limitless. And a lot of people can't say no.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
LATHAN: So, in a world where everything comes back down to the bottom line, you should ask yourself whether they're going to be able to buy next.
MCCAUGHEY: How much do we get to do the show there?
PHILLIP: Next for us, Pope Leo's honeymoon with America's right is basically over after he spoke out about American politics. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:47:39]
PHILLIP: Pope Leo's relationship with conservatives might be headed toward purgatory after the pontiff called out those who claim to be pro-life and yet support issues that advocate for the exact opposite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO THE FOURTEENTH, SOVEREIGN OF VATICAN CITY STATE: Someone who says I'm against abortion but says I'm in favor of the death penalty is not really pro-life. So, someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants who are in United States, I don't know if that's pro-life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: In case you forgot, the Pope is from Chicago. That's the first thing. The second thing is he is really pointedly talking about American policy in a way that has already kind of upset a lot of conservatives. Here's Steve Deace saying, "He's its most important figure obviously, but I understand what you're saying and agree that there are millions of faithful Catholics who won't follow this apostasy and haven't followed the others, but how would they know he's an apostate? By the word of God." So, they are excommunicating him.
MORAN: Well, he made very clear -- he made very clear at the end of that, church teaching is clear on this, that abortion is a grave sin and the death penalty is reserved only for the most extreme circumstances where the society itself is in danger. What he was saying is, everybody is more than the worst thing they believe or do.
That you must look at a person in their totality. And people who strut around saying because you believe X or Y or Z, we're kicking you out of the Christian faith or you're a less than human being, he was speaking from a position of charity.
PHILLIP: I mean, and look, putting my church daughter hat on, the other part of what he's saying is essentially, If you believe the teachings on abortion, if you believe the teachings on those other things, you should also believe the teachings on treating other human beings as human beings. And I think that is the place where he gets in at odds with American conservatives.
ALLISON: Yeah, because I think that faith is invoked so much by conservatives that they, you know, there is this belief in politics that Republicans have the moral high ground and are the people who live a Christian moral life and the crazy leftists are demonic and -- that's some of the language that we hear.
[22:50:00]
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Well, yeah, that doesn't seem very Christian to say. But you know, it's -- I think that's the point is that people have selective applications of their faith. And oftentimes, people's politics supersede, it feels like, the faith they proclaim to have.
WILLIAMS: I'll be honest with you, so as an evangelical, I believe that Jesus is Lord. I can say it and I have no shame in saying it and he's the way, the truth and the life. That being said, as an evangelical who's also a conservative, I'm not even offended by his comments. Because I also believe he has a right to an opinion, I don't think it's going to affect policy. I think we're making more out of this than was really there.
The truth of the matter, he's the pope, he can have an opinion. I don't think the U.S. foreign policy is going to change or U.S. immigration policy is going to change. And I don't think that Catholic conservatives in the United States are in fear of losing anything in terms of their standing with the church by going, I don't agree with that.
PHILLIP: I mean, do you think he has a point about treating immigrants humanely? Because I mean that immigration policy is immigration policy, but treating immigrants humanely. That's the point that he was trying to talk about.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Sure.
(CROSSTALK) MCCAUGHEY: And I think we do in the United States.
WILLIAMS: And I think we do. I think, I mean, regardless of what somebody says, and I realize you all are all having reactions at the table when I say it, but the reality is I don't think there is an inhumane process underway right now. Someone broke the law to get here and we're sending them back.
PHILLIP: Van, last word --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: I'm not a good God-person. I'm not. I have a strong --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: There's a cure for that.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: -- unwavering belief that God is real. And that belief causes me a lot of shame. Sometimes I can see God looking at me and I wonder what God sees. But there's one thing that I try to do in all the other ways that I fail. The greatest gift that God gave to humanity is humanity. And the number one thing that you are supposed to do is see God in each and every person that you look out at.
And that's the trans kid hiding from their parents in their closet. That's the black person under the boot of the police or systemic oppression. That is the migrant being stuffed in the back of the U- Haul. There's God in it. You are treating the least of his people, at least as defined as this society, right there the least. And you're commanded not to do it.
You don't get to decide whether or not you love people and treat people humanly. You are commanded to do it by God, and you break his will and commandment if you don't do it.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: And furthermore, if you find reasons to explain why you're doing that, then you're willfully doing it.
WILLIAMS: Your assumption though is -- your assumption though is that love does not also have standards. Because what you're saying is that there can be no standards that everything has to be something you just designed, but the reality is I can love someone. I can love my kids when they were growing up and still tell them they did that wrong. And I can tell them with gentleness.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: Could you love your kids and also stuff them in the back of a U-Haul?
WILLIAMS: What are you talking about? LATHAN: I'm talking about the way the migrants are being treated.
WILLIAMS: And I don't agree that that's really happening.
MORAN: You don't see that?
LATHAN: Oh, okay.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Human traffickers are the ones who -- the human traffickers are the who --
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: Okay. So, we're living in fantasy.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I think the thing about the faith, though, is I think that it is the humanness of us that think we are the ones that get to set the standard of judgment. And part of our Christian faith is that we meet our Lord and Savior at Judgment Day.
WILLIAMS: Right.
ALLISON: And that you have to go before and hopefully that you have lived a life that is love is patient and that love is kind, and that you have treated the least of these.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- for a lot more time guys but we do have to go. Thank you panel, very much, for that conversation. But when we get -- come back, you'll give us your nightcaps and they're going to tell us what they'd wait in line for inspired by a big album drop tonight.
But first, a quick programming note. Don't miss the series premiere of the new CNN original series, "New Orleans, Soul of a City". It airs Sunday at 10 P.M. right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:39]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the NewsNightcap, "I've been waiting" edition. Taylor Swift's new album, "Life of a Showgirl" drops at midnight. And Spotify is holding an immersive exhibit for the release with lines stretching down the block. So, you each have a few seconds to tell us what you would wait in line like that for. Phil, you're up.
WILLIAMS: 1981, the original Van Halen. I enjoyed it thoroughly. That's the last time I waited in line though.
LATHAN: Rihanna album, Taylor Swift good. Are we cool for everyone? We need the vibes bad Rihanna, please save us.
(CROSSTALK)
LATHAN: I know, she's so happy. I don't even want to say it. She's so happy. She's so amazing but man, we need the vibe.
PHILLIP: She's done with you.
LATHAN: Yeah.
MORAN: I will wait in line this month for World Series tickets for the Cubs in the World Series.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MORAN: It's going to happen.
PHILLIP: You're actually -- you have to wait in line for that?
MORAN: All right, I would.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: He's going to be waiting.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, got you, got you.
ALLISON: Nothing. Nothing.
MORAN: Wow.
ALLISON: Absolutely nothing. I don't know. I don't -- I cannot think of something that I would wait out.
PHILLIP: A million dollars.
LATHAN: Air Pier?
ALLISON: No.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Beyonce tickets. No?
ALISON: Resale. No. Like, no. There is an easier way to do it. I'm not -- I'm not a lying girl. No, sorry.
PHILLIP: Oh, and by the way, congratulations.
[23:00:00]
You are now the owner of The Root.
MORAN: Congratulations. ALLISON: Thank you. Thank you.
PHILLIP: Very proud of you.
ALLSION: Appreciate it.
PHILLIP: Don't forget the little people, were still here.
ALLISON: Oh no, no, we won't.
PHILLIP: All right, Betsy?
MCCAUGHEY: A kiss from my five-week-old grandson, Michael. A beauty with --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: You win.
MCCAUGHEY: -- red hair and blue eyes. I can't wait to give him a kiss, but I'd wait all day for that.
PHILLIP: Congratulations to you, too. Those things are precious.
MCCAUGHEY: Yes.
PHILLIP: Fresh babies.
UNKNOWN: How about you?
PHILLIP: I don't know.
ALLISON: Nothing.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: If you were to make me wait in line for a million bucks, I would do it. All right, everybody, thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: We're buying your book.
PHILLIP: Thanks for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
