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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Threatens To Deploy Troops Despite Court Orders; Hundreds Of Troops Heading To Chicago Amid Trump Takeover; Chicago Creates ICE- Free Zones To Block Agents And Raids; Chicago Creates "ICE-Free Zones"; AOC Encourages Democrats To Take Up A New Tactic; Jack Smith Falls More Out Of Favor With GOP. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 06, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, Donald Trump versus American cities, red states versus blue states.
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D-IL): There is no insurrection here.
PHILLIP: A battle over power boils over between the gavel and the ground.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: It is a burning hell hole.
PHILLIP: Plus, as ICE confrontations multiply across Chi Town, the city is now declaring some areas free from raids.
MAYOR BRANDON JOHNSON (D-CHICAGO, IL): If Congress will not check this administration, then Chicago will.
PHILLIP: Also phone tag, Republicans say Jack Smith obtained their call records as part of his investigation.
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): It should shock every American.
PHILLIP: Is this the deep state or partisan bait.
And one of MAGA's favorite foils is hitting the sides of their egos.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): You can dismantle a movement of insecure men is by making fun of them.
PHILLIP: But who will get the last laugh?
Live at the table, Ana Kasparian, Joe Borelli, Keith Boykin, Madison Gesiotto and Jeffrey Toobin. Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. The president's battle with American cities is also becoming a battle between red states and blue states. Tonight, Chicago and Portland are on the frontlines as the Trump administration intensifies its efforts to send in the National Guard.
Now, the White House is saying that it's all in the name of stopping violent ice protests and protecting law enforcement. And if any judge decides to get in the way of that, here's how the president says he's going to take care of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have an Insurrection Act for a reason. If I had to enact it, I'd do that. If people were being killed and courts were holding us up, or governors or mayors were holding us up, sure, I'd do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: A short time ago, Trump formally ordered hundreds of National Guard troops to Chicago, even though city officials and the state of Illinois sued the administration over its move to do so. The lawsuit mirrors a similar one brought by the state of Oregon over the weekend where a Trump-appointed federal judge block the President's plan to deploy troops to Portland twice.
And as the battles make their way through the courts, we are seeing tensions playing out on the grounds in these cities. Tonight, hundreds of Texas National Guard members are now headed to Chicago at Trump's direction, and last night, protesters clashed with federal agents outside of an ICE in Portland, Oregon.
This is essentially what Donald Trump promised, Jeffrey, and a lot of people, when he was campaigning essentially on this, said, well, he's not talking about sending in the military on Americans, right? He's talking about sending in the military to deport people. But this is a slow motion attempt first in California, then in Portland, now in Chicago, to do just that. My question to you is why do you think it is that the Insurrection Act keeps getting dangled, but they're not actually doing it yet?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, AUTHOR, THE PARDON, THE POLITICS OF PRESIDENTIAL MERCY: Be because that's a step that has been taken very few times in American history and deals historically with true insurrections, with violent acts involving hundreds if not thousands of people. What's gone on in Portland and Chicago are minor protests, as the judge in Oregon, Judge Immergut said, these are minor protests that do not justify bringing in the National Guard. And there is no litigation yet about the Insurrection Act, but some of the same arguments could be made there.
And I think at some level, facts matter. And the fact is these cities are not in any sort of state, anything like a rebellion. As Judge Immergut said, you were talking about protests of 20 people in September in Portland. And that's not something that justifies sending in the National Guard or the invocation of the Insurrection Act. PHILLIP: I mean, he also is sending in the National Guard from other states into -- sorry, into Chicago. I'm sure he'll try to do this in other places too. Governor Newsom of California says, states cannot invade one another.
[22:05:03]
This is so simple, so fundamental to America. I cannot believe I have to type those words. America is on the brink of martial law. Are you comfortable with that?
MADISON GESIOTTO, FORMER RNC NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: Well, I think the ruling coming out yesterday is not surprising in that we expected that the judge would rule this way. However, as we know across the country, there's going to be continued cases on this. I expect that it'll likely reach the Supreme Court eventually, and probably in the very near future, we're going to see, I think, different district and appellate courts rule in opposite direct, obviously, different situations on each.
And I think it's ultimately going to come down to in these different circumstances in the different cities, whether there's federal property that needs protected, that wasn't able to be protected by the local law enforcement. She's saying that wasn't the case in Portland, but even if it wasn't the case yesterday, it could be the case today or tomorrow. So, this is a very fluid situation in which the administration could potentially be successful, but obviously haven't been in the court so far.
And, of course, one -- sorry, one last point. Precedence is not set nationwide based off of the district court ruling. There's been a lot of confusion about that for people that aren't legal experts across the country.
PHILLIP: Each situation, to your point, is being decided situation by situation, but Trump is clearly trying to use a loophole to get around some of the rulings here by basically saying, well, we're not going to call California's National Guard, but we'll send Texas to California. I mean, that's a hypothetical situation, but that's essentially what they figured they could do.
ANA KASPARIAN, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER AND HOST, THE YOUNG TURKS: Right. And that's what Judge Immergut in Oregon weighed in on and said, no, this is unconstitutional. You can't do this. There isn't, you know, some big violent issue at play here. I think, you know, just based on what the polling indicates, the American people really see this as Trump declaring war on Americans.
And it's a shame because we are in this environment of division and political violence. And while I have absolutely no love for any protestor who engages in violent acts, and that person should be dealt with by local authorities who have the jurisdiction to do law enforcement domestically, the idea of using our military or the National Guard in order to carry out these duties is wrong and it's hurting Trump and the Republican Party politically but there are willing -- GESIOTTO: But there has been cases where 911 calls that have been obviously floated around where they're saying, stand down. If you were to see that across the country where they're standing down and local law enforcement is being told, do not respond --
(CROSSTALKS)
GESIOTTO: Attacks on ICE, for example.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: But hold on, that's --
GESIOTTO: If there's an attack on ICE office.
KASPARIAN: Right.
GESIOTTO: And there is credible claims of 911 calls where they're being told, sorry, we can't respond, stand down. Would you support that?
PHILLIP: Let me just add some --
KASPARIAN: I wouldn't support them standing down.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second, guys. Let me just add some context on that.
GESIOTTO: No, I'm asking you a question. I'm not that --
KASPARIAN: Give me a specific example. Which city did that have --
PHILLIP: Let me tell you what --
(CROSSTALKS)
KASPARIAN: Hold on. The head of police in Chicago, Larry Snelling, came out and said, I, under no circumstance, have issued a stand down order.
PHILLIP: We have that sound. I don't know if we can get it prepared while we're talking about this. But to Ana's point, I mean, this idea that that there was a stand down order that Chicago P.D. are not there is something that has been categorically disputed by Chicago P.D. Listen to what he said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR POLICY: They gave a stand down order in Chicago.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: They've been arresting folks on the ground. They refute what you're saying outright.
MILLER: We literally have the 911 audio of the stand down order in Chicago, and we have documented inside of DHS every single unresponded to 911 call over the recent weeks and months.
LARRY SNELLING, CHICAGO POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: There was something that was put out there that there was an internal message that came from the chief of patrol. That is absolutely not true.
Our officers were not told to stand down. Our officers were out there throughout the entire event. I would never tell our officers to stand down because if our officers were in trouble and we needed help from other officers, I would expect those officers to step in and help us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, this was a particularly heated situation in Chicago, and it's important to note that that internal message that I think Stephen Miller is referring to came hours after the incident actually happened. There were Chicago P.D. on site, and as the police chief said in another clip, they were -- we know they were on site because they were victims of chemical irritants that were sprayed by, you know, Border Patrol agents on the scene.
So, the point is that whole idea that they were not there to help ICE is not true, according to Chicago P.D.
JOE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: Where was the Chicago Police Department when hundreds of ICE detainers were issued over the last two decades or so, or five years, six years, however long since they decided to become a sanctuary city, right? How many ICE detainers were ignored by the Chicago Police Department, Chicago prosecutors, right?
[22:10:01]
You're shaking your head, but it happened here in New York. It happens here. All these --
PHILLIP: I'm actually not shaking my head. I'm just -- I was just going to say that Chicago P.D. -- I'm just going to repeat what he said because I can't play the whole press conference.
BORELLI: But, Abby, there doesn't need to be protests.
PHILLIP: Do they -- hold on a second. Do they -- do Chicago P.D. write the laws or do they enforce the laws?
BORELLI: There doesn't need to be protest if the authorities in Chicago would have complied with federal law from the first part.
PHILLIP: To answer your question, Chicago, the state of Illinois, the city of Chicago has local laws that Chicago P.D. is law bound to enforce. They can't decide on a whim to not enforce the laws of their jurisdiction.
So, I hear your dispute, but the dispute is not with Chicago --
BORELLI: I'm not debating. I'm saying that these protests would not have happened had there been historic cooperation with the Chicago Police Department and their authorities in Chicago with ICE detainers that have been authorized, duly authorized by courts, by immigration judges over the last two decades, right, what you said.
TOOBIN: Abby, you may have been shaking your head but --
BORELLI: Let me finish. We let you finish, Jeff. I didn't get a second. There's a bigger picture with America. There's a view that if you don't agree with a law, that you are entitled to break stuff, to assault police officers, to surround them with vehicles to ram your car into them, and that's not even the problem. The problem is that there's a lot of Americans who believe those protesters are justified. That's the issue I think President Trump is trying to address with sending the National Guard that either even when Chicago police responds or not, when Portland Police respond or not, there is still going to be the rule of law in these cities, whether they're governed by Democrats or Republicans.
KEITH BOYKIN, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE AIDE: Baloney, baloney.
BORELLI: No.
BOYKIN: January 6th, we watched on January 6th when there was an insurrection of the United States Capitol, and Donald Trump was the president of the United States, he did nothing when people were attacking police officers, when there was an actual riot, when there were people who were doing everything they could, hang Mike Pence gallows outside of the Capitol building, and you're going to tell me that Donald Trump is concerned about safety. No, you're not. You said enough, Joe. What you're saying is inconsistent with the reality. The reality is that Donald Trump is selectively choosing reasons when he wants to going to deploy the National Guard. He didn't do anything.
(CROSSTALKS)
BORELLI: What about May 26th, 2020? Do you care about that day?
BOYKIN: I'm not.
BORELLI: More people died on May 26th, 2020 in Minneapolis when there was a riot --
(CROSSTALKS)
KASPARIAN: The truth is you guys are making are both making good points, okay? Joe is actually correct. If there is a detainer and there's an undocumented person who's committed a crime and, you know, federal authorities are saying, we have a detainer, please hold this person after they serve their sentence so we can deport them. Municipalities should listen to that, okay? I agree with you on that.
I also agree with you. Okay. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you have problems with left-wing protesters assaulting police officers, as I do, you should have the same commentary and the same opinion when it's right wing protesters or rioters.
BORELLI: So, why don't we talk about May 26th. 2020, August 23rd, 2020, August 28th, 2020?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Jeffrey Toobin, I do think that there is something to be said about the fact that Stephen Miller, who seems to be driving most of this seems to be incredibly determined to reclaim the word, insurrection. He keeps using it to describe what's happening in places like Chicago and Portland. He says, this is domestic terrorism and seditious insurrection. That was Saturday. Again, on Saturday, legal insurrection, he's talking now about a court ruling, legal insurrection. The president is commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces, not an Oregon judge.
But it's kind of, sort of upside down world here, but I don't think it's by accident. He seems to be wanting to use this language to justify using extreme force, even the military in a domestic fashion.
TOOBIN: I think that's true, that's what he's trying to do, but I think it's just worth focusing on the fact that there are laws about when the president can federalize and send in National Guards, which are usually under state control. There are two conditions. One is if federal interests or individuals are at immediate risk, and the other is if there is a rebellion. That's the word in the statute. The judge in Oregon said neither of those conditions were met, so it was in inappropriate for the president to send in the National Guard. That's what these controversies are about.
I know people want to talk about like, you know, lots of things in recent American history, all of which are legitimate subjects, but we are talking about whether the National Guard can be sent in. There are laws about that. And at least one judge so far has said the president has violated that law.
PHILLIP: All right, more on our breaking news. Next, Chicago is setting up ice free zones, something that the White House calls sick, this as police there say chemical agents were used against their officers.
[22:15:03]
Plus, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez calls MAGA a bunch of insecure men and tells the left to laugh at them to dismantle the movement. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, Chicago fights back and the city and state of Illinois are suing the Trump administration over its attempts to deploy the National Guard there. That's after a federal judge blocked that same move in Portland.
Now, Brandon Johnson, the mayor of Chicago, says that he is taking an extra step to protect his city from what he calls the administration's war on Chicago.
[22:20:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
B. JOHNSON: The order establishes ICE-free zones. That means that city property and unwilling private businesses will no longer serve as staging grounds for these raids.
ICE cannot enter establishments without a valid warrant. Private entities may voluntarily choose to display signage to designate their property as part of a citywide network of community spaces that stand together in affirming the safety, dignity, and belonging of all of our residents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The White House responded to that on Twitter writing, this is sick. He's aiding and abetting criminal, illegal immigrant killers, rapists, traffickers, and gang bangers.
I guess the biggest question right now, or one of the big questions, Keith, is, I mean, this seems hard to enforce. How are they going to create ICE-free zones in the city of Chicago?
BOYKIN: Well, I think the idea behind it is that they want to make sure that city property is not being used for ICE operations. And it is difficult to enforce, I guess, you know, when they see something happening, they'll be reporting to them, but they can move on from there.
But one of the incidents that happened recently was that there was an ICE agent or someone who was an agent for the federal government through a tear gas canister outside of the street near a public school. And that's one of the concerns that they have, things that are happening around, the instance in Chicago where reportedly helicopters were near the building that they raided. And they had people who were zip-tied, children who were zip-tied and let out into the streets naked. This is what's happening in America right now.
And the travesty of it all is that we are living in a country where Republicans have spent the better part, if not the entire part of my life, claiming that they believed in limited government and state's rights. And here we have a government, the city of Chicago, the state of Illinois, asking that their rights be respected, their state's rights be respected, that city rights be respected, and the Republicans say no because they really don't care about those things after all. They care about using the spectacle of violence to create this show for Donald Trump.
BORRELI: I don't think it's a spectacle when hundreds, literally hundreds, not tens, not twenties, hundreds of children have been murdered by gangs in Chicago over the last five years. That's an appalling statistic. If I was Mayor Johnson, the thing I'd be focusing on the most would be eradicating myself of gangs, whether they're gangs of undocumented, illegal people, or gangs of Chicago-borne natives. That should be priority.
(CROSSTALKS) BORELLI: But the problem is, as I said earlier, I think it's possible all of these problems could have been done peacefully if there was cooperation by sanctuary cities who honored ICE detainers and put them in jail.
BOYKIN: Wait. You just shifted the justification. Let me just say this real quickly. You just shifted the justification. First, you're talking about crime, now you're talking about sanctuary cities. The problem is --
BORELLI: Sanctuary cities protecting people who are committing crimes.
BOYKIN: No. You're talking -- sanctuary cities are about immigration, and what you're doing now is that you're confronting --
BORELLI: You're sanctuary if you're law enforcement.
BOYKIN: You're conflating the issues because what Republicans have done, what Trump has done in this administration is they've used crime, they've used Tren de Aragua, they've used attacks on ICE facilities, they've used sanctuary -- they've used immigration. Every excuse they can come up with as a justification for sending in National Guard troops when each time it's different.
What is the reason why they're doing this and why is it each time it's an emergency?
PHILLIP: One of the other things about this is that, obviously, the White House is going to say this is protecting criminals and rapists and all that stuff. But we also know that many people who are picked up, maybe even most of them in some places are not criminals at all. And, in fact, in some of these instances --
GESIOTTO: But every single person that comes into the country legally is criminalized.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Hold on. Let me just --
GESIOTTO: If you cross the border illegally, you are a criminal in this country.
PHILLIP: Madison, I'm talking about their characterization of all of the people targeted by ICE as being rapists, you know, terrorists, whatever you want to call it, gang members, they're not all those people, okay? So, we know that.
But also some of the people who are caught up in some of these raids are also Americans. A couple of headlines from recently, a $50 million claim against DHS over body slamming a car wash owner, a U.S. citizen wrongly detained twice in Alabama, another American citizen detained, as some Latinos say that they're being racially targeted.
GESIOTTO: Here's the problem I have with what's going on. You see Pritzker, You see Johnson saying this is an unconstitutional invasion of their city, right, coming from Trump. But these are the same people that have absolutely no problem with an actual unconstitutional invasion of the country where we saw the Biden administration let millions and millions of people across the border. They literally basically invited them across the border. Over 10 million illegal immigrants came into this country.
Now, ICE is being forced to deport the people from this country, which President Trump promised he ran on and ultimately partially won on this commitment to the American people on wanting to put the American people first. And so we've seen 2 million people that were here illegally that have left since Trump came into office, whether that be deportations or self-deportations, which they're also incentivizing because they recognize that that's one of the ways that we can get these people out.
[22:25:09]
BOYKIN: You said it's unconstitutional invasion for immigrants. What's unconstitutional about that?
GESIOTTO: For people like Pritzker and people like --
BOYKIN: No, you said that unconstitutional invasion. What is unconstitutional?
GESIOTTO: For people like Johnson and Pritzker to protect illegal immigrants.
BOYKIN: No. You said Biden let them in.
GESIOTTO: Which is against federal law. Yes, if you let me, finish, I'll get there, which is against federal law. We cannot have these cities protecting against federal law, and on top of it, stopping and prohibiting federal law enforcement from doing their job, ICE from doing their jobs and deporting people.
KASPARIAN: Madison, you don't have any problem with the fact that ICE --
GESIOTTO: I'm not sure that screaming is going to help your argument.
KASPARIAN: -- with all of the additional -- well, I need a moment to speak. With you filibustering, it's difficult for me to make a point.
GESIOTTO: There's been a 1,000 percent surge on violent --
KASPARIAN: I need to understand how it's okay for American citizens --
PHILLIP: Hold on.
KASPARIAN: -- American citizens to be profiled, to be detained, even though they're not undocumented immigrants, for American children to be zip tied when ICE --
GESIOTTO: American citizens are not being profiled.
KASPARIAN: That is exactly what's happening right now.
(CROSSTALKS)
KASPARIAN: They are being asked if they are undocumented. Do you walk around with your papers?
GESIOTTO: 38 members of the gang were arrested. I understand that everybody on this show loves to talk about this allegation.
KASPARIAN: No. I can figure making excuses for an administration that's reigning terror on ordinary American citizens.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Madison, it's not really -- I haven't seen ICE disputing the fact that when they raided that apartment building, that they detained everyone.
BORELLI: That's the point.
PHILLIP: They -- hold on. They have not --
GESIOTTO: But DHS specifically has disputed they tie about -- how they're zip tying children.
PHILLIP: Sure. They --
GESIOTTO: And on top of that --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Hold on a second, Madison. They have not disputed, and to -- this is to Ana's --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: They have not disputed that there were Americans.
KASPARIAN: Nothing makes kids safer than detaining them in zip ties.
PHILLIP: They have not disputed that there were --
GESIOTTO: You want to send them back with the gangs?
KASPARIAN: No.
GESIOTTO: Is that a better option?
KASPARIAN: That's a false for choice. That's a false choice.
PHILLIP: Madison, just one second, okay? They have not disputed that there were Americans who were detained, who did absolutely nothing wrong, except they happened to live in a particular place and a lot of them were black Americans.
Boris Sanchez was talking to Stephen Miller about this today and asked him. Actually, the truth is when you listen to this, the question was actually about the profiling of Latinos, but here's how Stephen Miller responded to that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He also says that you are profiling, that you're targeting black and brown people, even those who turn out to be here legally. What's your response?
MILLER: Well, first of all, the black people in Chicago are thrilled that we're getting the illegal aliens out of their communities who are stealing their housing, jobs and resources.
The illegal aliens who are here are taking jobs away from blacks. They're taking jobs away from whites. They're taking jobs away from Latinos.
We cannot have a system of law in this country that privileges illegal aliens over American citizens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TOOBIN: I love the idea that Stephen Miller has a pipeline to the black community in Chicago and knows what black people in Chicago were thinking. I kind of doubt that's the case.
PHILLIP: But he does understand the politics of division.
TOOBIN: Well, absolutely.
PHILLIP: He understands that very well.
TOOBIN: You know, it is true that the mayor of Chicago is not allowed to obstruct the work of ICE. And I think some of what he said comes very close to obstructing that. And that's just simply not the law. He's right that people inside buildings can demand a warrant from ICE if they can, and they're not obliged to let them in. But it is also true that, you know, you can call yourself a sanctuary city or whatever you want, but under the law a locality is not allowed to interfere with the work of ICE, much as they want to.
BOYKIN: And I don't think interfering just to say that you can't use this particular property of ours that the city owns to launch a facility. Now, whether that means they can -- if they're engaging some other activity that happen to be on there, you can decide that because you're the professional expert on this, but I don't think they're talking about interfering. I think it's just talking about making sure that their property isn't being used for that purpose.
It's the same reason -- I mean, I lived in Los Angeles for four years where Trump sent in national troops, and I'm saying in National Guard troops. And, you know, they used the same justification. They had to do this because there supposedly there was some great calamity that didn't exist and they accused people of interfering with the facility, the federal building in downtown Los Angeles, and there's no interference.
What Trump does is he creates a provocation and then people respond to that as opposed to --
KASPARIAN: Keith, I got to disagree with you on that.
BOYKIN: -- de-escalating.
KASPARIAN: I'm also in la and the protests against ICE in L.A. got super violent. They were literally throwing cinder blocks at LAPD.
BOYKIN: After Trump sent them. I was there every single day reporting on the ground.
KASPARIAN: Okay. That's fair. It was after --
BOYKIN: At the federal building.
KASPARIAN: It was after Trump sent the federal --
BOYKIN: But that's my point, Ana. Trump creates a crisis, and this is what happened in Portland. I saw the pictures in Portland a few days ago. There were like 10, 15 people. They were blowing bubbles and stuff. Then Trump's into the National Guard. You've got hundreds of people there. Trump creates a crisis.
[22:30:00]
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: He does. That's true. And the point that I want to make is it's time for ICE to carry out its duties.
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: And the problem that I have is that they are terrorizing American citizens.
(CROSSTALK)
JOE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: But how is the crisis not created when Democrats allowed and willfully ignored the rule of law?
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: You're ICE. You just got this massive influx of federal money. You're not able to do a targeted raid where you know exactly which units these people are in?
PHILLIP: All right. Joe.
BORELLI: Why are Democrats okay with immigrants not being able to follow the law? Why is that okay? Why is that --
(CROSSTALK)
KEVIN BOYKIN, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE AIDE: Nobody said that.
KASPARIAN: Nobody said that.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: Why when the enforcement happens, why is it such a problem? Why is the protest always against ICE?
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: Because the enforcement isn't happening in a targeted way.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: Why is the protest always against ICE? Why is the protest always for sanctuary cities?
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: Why isn't --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: -- for law enforcement?
PHILLIP: Very quickly. We really have to go.
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: The answer is that police -- law enforcement says that if they have to cooperate with ICE, that means that local immigrant communities will feel less likely to actually cooperate with the police.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: The police or the people breaking the law.
BOYKIN: The local police are saying that they don't want to be -- they don't want to be co-opted in the ICE campaign because it makes people less likely to cooperate with them.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. I just think it's always important to point out, there is almost universal agreement in this country that criminal people who are undocumented should be kicked out of the country.
BORELLI: Really?
PHILLIP: Virtually --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: I remember the Democratic primary -- the Democratic primary, they asked every candidate --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Joe, are you going to --Joe --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: -- who thinks there should be free healthcare for illegal immigrants?
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: Every one of them. Every one of them.
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: That's a red herring. Let her speak, please. She's talking about criminals.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That's not really in dispute here. But what has also happened over the last nine months is that there are people going into courthouses to follow the legal procedures, having their cases administratively closed and then getting arrested right outside the courthouse doors.
So, there's both things happening. Yeah, they are going after criminals, but they're actually going after a lot of people who are not criminals, as well. And that is what's building the heat in this country in terms of the antagonism between law enforcement and regular Americans, because a lot of this is regular Americans who are frustrated.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: But Abby, if there's a gang on the street corner, that the police know there's shootings --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Joe --
BORELLI: -- and they roll up on the street corner --
PHILLIP: Joe, if there's --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: -- are they not going to stop --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Joe, if there is a gang on the street corner, they should go after the gang on the street corner and nobody disputes that.
KASPARIAN: Hundred percent.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Next for us, AOC is -- says in order to dismantle the MAGA movement, the left should make fun of the insecure men in the group like White House advisor Stephen Miller, who she calls a clown. We'll debate that, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:37:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is encouraging Democrats to take up a new tactic, making fun of MAGA men, and especially, she says, their obsession with masculinity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D) NEW YORK: The last thing they want you to do is laugh at them. The last thing they want you to do is make fun of them, because that diminishes them far more than them trying to stick a boot in your face. The fact of the matter is, is like these people are yes, tremendously dangerous, but a lot of them are tremendously dull.
People talk about toxic masculinity more than it's like, let's put that to the side for just one second. This is about insecure masculinity. And one of the best ways that you can dismantle a movement of insecure men is by making fun of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Ocasio-Cortez's comments came as Donald Trump revealed the date for a UFC fight at the White House. It'll be June 14th, 2026. That's his 80th birthday. And I wonder what you make of that.
KASPARIAN: I love the UFC, so I'm not happy about it. No, but in all seriousness, I think Democrats need to stop talking about masculinity. Period. End of story. Considering how poorly they're performing with men, making fun of masculinity, calling men weak. Like, there are substantive things to actually attack members of the Republican Party on. Hitting them on the masculinity point, I think, is a really bad move. And honestly, it turns me off, personally.
PHILLIP: I also think that, I mean, on the other side of things, maybe it's toxic or whatever, but the MAGA world is leaning into it. Here's Benny Johnson, the right-wing, I guess, podcaster. He posted some A.I.-generated images of himself, I guess, as some kind of action hero attacking immigrants outside of a Walmart.
KASPARIAN: Wow, very cool.
PHILLIP: So, there's that. And a couple of days ago DHS posted a meme, Giga Chad, an ultra-masculine model saying, communist denied, terrorist denied, globalist denied. I mean, Joe, don't know. I don't know what to make of it. Maybe AOC is wrong for attacking masculinity, but definitely, MAGA is sort of leaning into this sort of like alpha male type of person.
BORELLI: But let's be clear. She was actually making fun of his physical appearance for a period of time on that show. And I think if I was making fun of her physical appearance or her sexuality or her gender or her race or anything, it would not be met with the same, you know, kid gloves approach that she's getting right now. But look at like what she even says. She says toxic masculinity,
right. That was a thing for a long time. And there is a conservative response. And I think it was sort of epitomized by Charlie Kirk who spoke about masculinity quite often but not the frat boy masculinity.
[22:40:03]
The masculinity of being a father, the masculinity of providing for your family, being morally responsible, being financially responsible, not being idle. All of these things are conservative values and they're not limited to conservatives. I'm not going to say we're unique in those things.
But they are things that are espoused by members of the right and I think that's a great thing to celebrate. And as you pointed out, Democrats are failing with men because they're not letting men be men, not frat boy men, but men be real genuine wholesome men. That's a conservative thing.
BOYKIN: I actually agree with much of what Joe said. I'm going to sound self-promoting here but when I was in college I got an award for Outstanding Freshman Man in my class and it said four things -- honestly with oneself, fairness toward others, sensitivity to duty, and courage in its performance. These things make manhood. And that's what I've always thought masculinity was about. It was not about, you know, who could be the strongest or the biggest or who could bully somebody.
And I wish we could get back to that kind of definition of masculinity, which was about helping people, using our strength for good, not to use our strength to terrorize other people or to hurt other people. And if we can agree on that, then we can make some progress.
PHILLIP: All right. We'll leave it there for that conversation. Next for us, Republicans are accusing Jack Smith of spying on them after the FBI gets the phone records of Republican senators. We'll discuss.
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[22:46:01]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Jack Smith falls even more out of favor with the GOP. Senate Republicans announced that Smith had obtained phone records of nine lawmakers as part of his January 6th investigation. All nine were obtained through a grand jury, and the DOJ never received the actual contents of those calls, just the dates, the recipients, and the lengths of the calls.
Now, Kash Patel claims it was done for political purposes, adding that the FBI will, quote, "never again be weaponized against the American people". Senator Ron Johnson was one of those Republican lawmakers and he expressed his frustration tonight. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: They're casting this net, this fishing expedition against members of the Senate and the House. I've been investigating this with Senator Grassley. This doesn't surprise me, but it should shock every American.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Jeffrey, I wonder what you make of this. I mean, was it an overreach on Jack Smith's part?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, not only wasn't it an overreach, it's not even news. Jack Smith cites these conversations in his report. So, this is not like he was trying to keep this a secret. And remember what Jack Smith was investigating. He was investigating Donald Trump's attempts to overturn the election through the use of fake electors in Congress. He was lobbying members of Congress to do just that. That was evidence in the case.
So, it is of course appropriate for him to investigate the time and nature, or at least the time and the duration of calls with members of Congress. It's a complete non-story except that Jack Smith was doing his job.
PHILLIP: I just wonder also why use the term spying when there was no spying that occurred. I mean, this was done by a grand jury, essentially subpoena. They did it years after the fact of these calls. It wasn't done in real time at all. So, I mean, maybe you could argue it's for political purposes if you think that the entire January 6th investigation was political, but it certainly doesn't seem to have been spying.
BORELLI: I was reliably told that members of Congress were victims in all this. Their lives were in danger. They were at risk of being decapitated and being thrown at the gallows. All of a sudden that when it's Republican they're not victims, they're suspects according to Jack Smith.
I think there's been a broader politicization of the FBI. We had an FBI agent plead guilty to falsifying records so that he can get a wiretap on the Trump campaign back in 2016, that happened. You have this B.S. raid on Mar-a-Lago where the FBI brought cover sheets of top secret and sprayed them around the floor and took pictures. Where did they end up?
TOOBIN: The FBI brought those sheets?
BORELLI: They did bring the sheets. The FBI brought the top secret cover sheets and replaced other documents with those, put them on the floor, then took photographs, and then leaked the photographs. That's what actually happened. This agency has a leaking problem. That's why James Comey is under indictment right now.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: That wasn't leaked.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: The photographs were attached to court documents.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: The purpose was that you saw them, you and the media.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Joe, those were court documents, okay? They weren't leaked. A. And B, what did you want them to do? Take pictures of top secret documents and post the top secret documents?
BORELLI: No, I would expect that we wouldn't do a raid on a former president's house to get documents that weren't even there.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, look. Listen, I think that you can argue -- again, you can argue whether or not that case should have gone forward. But the underlying issue here, which is whether or not Donald Trump improperly took those documents, I'm not even sure Donald Trump is --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: And was treated differently than Joe Biden with proper documents.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Joe Biden -- okay. Joe Biden was also investigated and for different reasons, charges were not brought. But he was investigated by --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, to your point, Joe Biden hated that. But to your point, I mean, he was humiliated in the middle of a presidential campaign by his own DOJ.
KASPARIAN: Right.
PHILLIP: So, then --
[22:50:01]
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, look. I mean, you can call that politicization but that would be politicization against Biden by his own Justice Department?
MADISON GESIOTTO, FORMER RNC NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: I think the concern that members of Congress and people as a whole have is we don't want to see the Justice Department, we don't want to see the FBI politicize at all no matter which direction it's going.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Excuse me? What?
GESIOTTO: I don't want to see it happen to Democrats or Republicans. And for how long back in, you know, years ago did they say Trump campaign was spied on. Everybody said you're crazy that didn't happen. I mean, I remember I was there. We talked about it. People said we were nuts. We were liars. It didn't happen. Obviously, it happened.
And so, we saw that that was very, very political when that happened. And so, you hear something like this and it's very hard to say I think even if maybe it wasn't political. I feel like it is. Other people are going to argue that it isn't. But even if it wasn't, it's hard to have faith that it wasn't when you see time and time again that things are politicized. That shouldn't be.
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: I just think the Republicans love to play the role of victim, you know. There were Republicans - there were Republicans who were co- conspirators when Trump's plot to steal the election, who were arguing in court to defend what Donald Trump was doing in the Stop The Steal movement.
So, it wasn't unusual for the prosecutor to go investigate those phone calls that were made during that time. And secondly, if you want to talk about weaponizing the Justice Department, do you realize what's going on right now at the FBI?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. I will let you finish.
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: Do you realize that Kash Patel and the FBI director and others were standing behind the President of United States just a week or two ago when he was directing his agent -- his officers of the law to go after Letitia James and go after James Comey, the former FBI Director? The President of the United States --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. Ana, go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
GESIOTTO: Not to spy on their --
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: No. The President of the United States standing in the Oval Office telling this - telling people, telling government officials to prosecute people.
(CROSSTALK) KASPARIAN: So, the FBI also raided the home under Trump, by the way. Trump's FBI under Kash Patel's leadership raided the home of someone that I've got no love for, and that's John Bolton in search of classified documents that he had allegedly in his possession. So, are you guys going to argue that the FBI under Kash Patel's leadership weaponized the FBI to go against Trump's, you know, political opponent?
GESIOTTO: There's a huge difference between going to seek classified documents in someone's residence --
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: Like in Trump's residence.
(CROSSTALK)
GESIOTTO: --and spying on a political campaign.
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: But it's not spying. It was green-lit by a grand jury subpoena.
GESIOTTO: And there's just a huge difference between the two of those things.
PHILLIP: Well, okay.
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: Spying --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Listen, again, there's a lot of revisionist history happening here. The Trump classified documents case did not need to happen. It could have ended immediately if Trump had just returned the documents, and he didn't. So that's why we are where, at least where we were -- where we were.
Next for us though, the panel is going to give us their nightcaps tonight, Scientific Mystery Edition. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: We're back. And today, the Nobel Prize for Medicine was awarded to scientists whose work led to cancer and auto-immune treatments. So, for this nightcap, I ask our panel, what scientific mystery would you want answered? Not cancer. Madison.
GESIOTTO: All right, the question I'd want to know is why do we get deja vu, that feeling, that eerie feeling that you've been here before but you really haven't. I want to know why really happens.
KASPARIAN: That's a good one. PHILLIP: Yeah, same.
KASPARIAN: Mine isn't as smart. I want to know why does the hair stop growing on the head but somehow gets thicker on the back? I mean, people need to know. Sorry, it's not about you guys. I swear.
TOOBIN: I thought it was a broad --
PHILLIP: That was definitely a dig.
TOOBIN: I thought it was a broader scientific assignment. So, mine is why does every software update make the underlying product worse?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I have a strong theory. I have a theory about this.
(CROSSTALK)
GESIOTTO: They want you to buy the new product.
PHILLIP: Yeah, they want you to get a new phone.
TOOBIN: Oh, so you don't have to --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: They want to break your old thing so that you get the new thing.
TOOBIN: Okay, well, I guess you deserve a Nobel Prize in economics as a result of that.
PHILLIP: Exactly. Yeah, I would get it.
BOYKIN: And mine is, why does airplane turbulence always start the moment I get into the lavatory? I don't know if it's just me, but as soon as I get in the bathroom, the turbulence begins. It's crazy.
PHILLIP: Or why the don't get out, or buckle your seatbelt comes on right at the moment that you need to get up and go to the lavatory is another important question. Joe?
BORELLI: I want to find a cure for a "wet bathing suit chafes". How many days that six flags have been ruined for so many Americans? And I was going to have a walk for the cure, but it was just too painful. With tears and a bracelet and just like chafe.
PHILLIP: Okay, I also want to know where do hiccups come from and how do we cure them? Is there an answer to this that I'm dismissing?
KASPARIAN: There might be an A.I. question in the break -- in the break.
PHILLIP: What are hiccups and how do I really stop them other than doing a handstand or whatever. KASPARIAN: Do you get them often?
PHILLIP: I get them at the most inconvenient times and then what are you going to do? There's literally nothing you can do except a bunch of old wives' tales. All right, everybody, thank you very much. But before we go, I wanted to let you know that I am going on a book tour. My new book, "A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power" is coming out in just three weeks, people.
I will be going across the country to speak about it with many of my colleagues and friends of yours, people that you know and you've seen on this show. You can scan the Q.R. code. It's not a mystery. Scan the Q.R. code. It'll show you who's going to be my conversation partners.
[23:00:01]
You can also pre-order the book and get some information about how to get tickets for the tour there. I cannot wait to meet so many of you who watch the show and hopefully will read this book. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
