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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Breakthrough, Hamas and Israel Agree to First Phase of Peace; Hamas Agrees to Release Hostages for Israeli Pullback; Growing Fury as Trump's ICE Tactics Intensify on Streets. "NewsNight" Discusses ICE Tactics; Dolly Parton Says She Is Fine. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 08, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, a note and a whisper signals a breakthrough. The President's peace deal is on the edge of glory.
Plus, more surreal scenes of masked agents on American streets, this time shooting pellets at a pastor. But the more intense Donald Trump's tactics go, the less Americans approve.
Also, while MAGA demands critics not call them fascists or autocrats, Donald Trump calls for the jailing and silencing of Democratic leaders.
GOV. J.B. PRITKZER (D-IL): If you come for my people, you come through me. So, come and get me.
PHILLIP: And as the nation waits for elected leaders to reopen the government, talks seem to be going well.
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): We're not going to budge.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Democrats have three words for this, no (BLEEP) way.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): This is absurd.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the longest time the House --
JOHNSON: Do you want me to answer the question?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): You are a complete and total embarrassment.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Cornel West, Phil Williams, Brianna Lyman, and Congressman Dan Goldman.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
And we begin with a major breakthrough tonight. After two long years of war, Israel and Hamas have agreed to phase one of President Trump's peace deal. The president announced it on Truth Social, but we got a preview during the White House event today where he was interrupted by Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who said a deal was very close.
Now, Trump says that Hamas will release all of the hostages soon while Israel will withdraw their troop presence, according to his plan. He also thanked Qatar, Egypt, and Turkey for their help in getting the deal across the finish line.
Now, this video shows the moment that the deal appears to have been reached in Egypt with key negotiators like the special envoy, Steve Witkoff, and Qatar's prime minister shaking hands and embracing. And meanwhile, Trump talked about the breakthrough tonight. Listen.
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DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I spoke to Bibi Netanyahu just a little while ago. He called, he said, I can't believe it. He said, everybody's liking me now, they, meaning him. He said -- and they -- I said, more importantly, they're loving Israel again, and they really are. It's -- I said, Israel cannot fight the world, Bibi. They can't fight the world. And he understands that very well.
So, it's amazing the way it's all come together and it's a beautiful picture. I don't know if it could ever happen again.
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PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat tonight, Hagar Chemali. She is the former director for Syria and Lebanon at the National Security Council under President Obama.
And, Hagar, I'll get to you in just one moment, but, Congressman Goldman, I want your initial response to this because this could be of incredibly significant moment. And as you know, President Trump wants the Noble Peace Prize, but if he's able to do this, should he get it?
REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): Well, look I am. Ecstatic that we have reached this point where there is an agreement. There is not only an agreement of the first phase, but there's a blueprint for how it will move into the second phase and beyond and how Gaza can be rebuilt, can be demilitarized, Hamas can be removed and there can be peace in the Middle East.
And I think that's really where our focus has to be tonight. I'm very grateful for all of the parties involved who the president mentioned, several of them who finally really did engage in order to get this over the finish line. And the big thing now is it has to be executed. It has to finish. It has to go from point 1 through point 20 and beyond because we have to just stop this war. PHILLIP: And, Hagar, I want -- that clip that we played from Trump's interview tonight, my ears perked up when you heard him say in a couple of different ways. I told Bibi, you can't -- Israel cannot fight the world. He also said, the world likes you again, talking to Netanyahu, the world likes Israel again. He's getting at something here, which has been a real precipitous loss of support for Israel in the last two years, and the pressure that he put on Netanyahu to get to this point, it seems.
[22:05:10]
HAGAR CHEMALI, FORMER DIRECTOR FOR SYRIA AND LEBANON, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Yes, without a doubt. I mean, Trump sees -- he's trying to tell Netanyahu, I care about you. I care about Israel. I care about Israel's future and its long-term security. And this is a good thing for that. So, for the sake of your country, for the sake of your people and for the sake of global jewelry, this is a good move and this is -- we need to, we need to move forward. And that's going to be important because the U.S. is going have to maintain pressure on Israel to hold up its end of the bargain, just as Qatar will have to maintain pressure on Hamas to hold up its end of the bargain.
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, it's going to be a, a long road here. I want to play a little bit more from this Fox interview. He talks about the next steps, which is the rebuilding of Gaza. Listen.
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TRUMP: I think you're going to see people getting along and you'll see Gaza being rebuilt. We're forming a council, the Council of Peace, we think it's going to be called, and it's going to be very powerful and it's going to really -- I think, to a large extent, it's going to have a lot to do with the whole Gaza situation. People are going to be taken care of. It's going to be a different world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Phil?
PHIL WILLIAMS, HOST, RIGHTSIDE RADIO AND JUST RIGHT PODCAST: Yes, I think to answer your first question, is Trump going to receive a Nobel Peace Prize? I mean, if, he's not, at least consider for it, then what's the Nobel Peace Prize for? But this is a win. This is a bipartisan win. This is something that the world wins on. And I look at this as being a really significant day in world history.
And I'll also tell you, you know, there's a geopolitical premises that we've got to consider, what it means for the Middle East, what it means for the greater world, but what about the lives of those hostages that have been held for two years in some tunnel underneath the Gaza Strip? And the idea that they're going to be freed very soon is significant, not just for them, but for the morale of the Israeli and the Palestinian people. And truth be told, it's really something that is long overdue.
I think that's also going to be one of the telling moments is when they're released. Is Hamas going to do what they've done before and parade them out and create theater out of it, or are they going to turn them over and allow this to be a peaceful transition? That's going to be significant.
PHILLIP: Yes.
CORNEL WEST, AUTHOR, TRUTH MATTERS: Yes. For me, it's always a beautiful thing when you see a war come to an end, stopping a genocide, stopping annihilation. But I come from a tradition of a people who the Union Army won the Civil War, but Jim Crow won the peace. There's a difference between stopping a war and winning the peace. And as long as occupation is still in place, then you still got a challenge. Just like in American history, it was a beautiful thing when the Union Army won it. I know I got my southern brother. We understand the struggles that went on. But the question becomes then, what are the conditions under which all can flower and flourish, not just -- we got the precious Israelis and the hostages, you got the precious Palestinians and their prisoners, but then you've got the challenge of how are these people going to live together?
PHILLIP: I mean, but do you think President Trump is somebody who can actually credibly rebuild? I mean, he just frankly likes building. And it might be a kind of absurd thought, but, in a way, I mean, this is going to be a rebuilding project, not just perhaps some kind of nation building, society building, but like physically rebuilding the complete and utter devastation of Gaza. Trump actually really wants to be involved in that, and maybe he's the right person.
BRIANNA LYMAN, REPORTER, THE FEDERALIST: Yes. I think to your point, this is his bread and butter is to be a developer. I do think that there are a lot of Americans who will ask however. Is it our role and our taxpayer dollars that should go towards us? So, I think I'm curious to see what the polling will look like if there's a plan forward for the United States to be heavily involved in this rebuilding. And I also think, to everyone's point here, I am so happy that we are finally moving towards a step to have those hostages released. I hope that we can have sustainable long-term peace in the Middle East. Whether Hamas will agree to that long-term, whether we can actually get rid of them is another question, but this is finally like a silver lining after a horrible two years for everyone.
GOLDMAN: Yes. I mean, I've been wearing this, you know, ribbon on my lapel for two years when I was in Israel on October 7th. And just having met with the hostage families so many times, it's very emotional for those who have been -- and it's very emotional just for everybody who has been horrified by what's going on.
The reason why I think this is a different opportunity than what has happened in the past is that you have Qatar, you have the UAE, you have the Saudi Arabia, all of whom have said they are on board and invested. And that's the only way that we are going to get a true peace, is if the whole Middle East and the Arab League is invested in it.
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PHILLIP: Why do you think that this was not doable when President Biden was in office?
GOLDMAN: I think the biggest problem that President Biden had is there was no pressure from Qatar, from Turkey, from Egypt. They were actually facilitating in many ways what was going on. And that is really ultimately how it all came together.
PHILLIP: So, I mean, but the -- but I think by saying that, it's sort of an acknowledgement Trump has changed that dynamic.
WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely.
GOLDMAN: Yes. No, I think that --
PHILLIP: I mean, he's clearly --
GOLDMAN: I don't know how he -- you know? And I think there's a lot that remains to learn about what prompted that change. But I do agree, yes, somehow, some way that changed. What also changed is that there was a humanitarian aid blockade under Trump's administration, which Biden never allowed to happen, and that really set Israel back significantly.
PHILLIP: Yes, that's what this --
WILLIAMS: Well, I think we're looking at the difference between appeasement versus leadership. At this point, right now, what we got is the Trump administration is truly leading on the world stage and is not afraid to say, we insist on this as opposed to appeasing for this, and that's a vast difference. And the Middle East responds well to that.
CHEMALI: Yes. I was going to say, so the difference in approach between Biden and Trump in general is that Trump, like, you know, his biggest statement is strength through peace, right -- or peace through strength, right, a very Reaganesque type of view. The thing is that he approaches all these foreign policies with a threat behind it. And he said that, for example, with this agreement. He said to Hamas, if you don't agree, this is the last time I do this. I'm negotiating an end of the war. That's not about a temporary peace. This is an end of the war. You don't agree this. I'm going to allow Israel to eliminate you once and for all.
WILLIAMS: There's teeth in it.
CHEMALI: And Israel -- to your point, actually, Israel will win the battle. Whether it wins the longer term security that you're talking about is a different question. But that said, when Trump says that, it's a very credible threat.
Biden wasn't comfortable making a threat like that. And the thing that I think is very valuable to understand is that when you have wars like this, it's extremely costly to the United States. There's always -- and this is the case around the world, we want to see peace there. So, when you go in there with that kind of threat and that force and you say it's -- you're going to be eliminated or else, or else you agree, that's a threat that Hamas really felt. PHILLIP: But it's also on both ends because, I mean, Biden also -- the relationship with Netanyahu was also not great.
CHEMALI: Right.
PHILLIP: There was almost no trust there. And Netanyahu just did not respect the Biden administration.
WEST: Well, Trump was willing to put pressure on Netanyahu, and he did.
But I think in the end, again, I know this, today's Brother Jesse Jackson Sr.'s birthday, 84 years old, he was there in '79. And one of the points he was making coming out of the legacy of Martin King and Fannie Lou Hamer was, we want truth and justice in the Middle East. It can't be just one nation against another nation.
I mean, I'm a Christian. The cross is much deeper than just a flag. A flag is precious, but the cross is much deeper. And the question in the end is going to be whether, in fact, voices will be able to shape destiny. When I look at Section 9 and Section 10 of Brother Trump's 20-point and he's the overseer, that's like, oh, colonial language of the 19th century. He's the overseer. He's going to pick out which technocrats and -- no, we're talking about self-determination of precious Jewish brothers and sisters, Israeli brothers and sisters and Palestinian brothers, sisters, having the exact same significance and value.
And it's very difficult these days because we've got to be vigilant in terms of anti-Jewish racism, but anti-Palestinian racism cuts very deep. And we have to be cognizant a bit on each side.
PHILLIP: I think you are right that this idea of where does Palestinian society come up from is going to be a huge part of this picture as we go forward, and will that even be allowed to happen? I think we just don't know yet. So, we're going to be watching this very closely this weekend. It's going to be incredibly significant for these hostages and their families. Hagar Chemali, thank you very much for joining us.
Next for us, we've got breaking news, we're on the cusp of a major decision involving Trump's takeover of American cities, and it comes as video services showing ICE agents shooting pepper balls at a pastor. Another special guest is going to join us at the table.
Plus, the self-proclaimed free speech president makes a curious declaration tonight.
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TRUMP: We took the freedom of speech away.
When they burn a flag, it agitates and irritates crowds.
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PHILLIP: Breaking news tonight, Texas National Guard members, 200 of them, are officially deployed in the city of Chicago as President Trump barrels toward his military fight with the city. We are now seeing scenes of chaos unfolding there. This time, masked agents shot pepper balls at a pastor who is protesting outside of an ICE detention center. He was calling for peace and prayer, and he got this instead.
The pastor there immediately falls to the ground and people rush to help him.
Now, in this video, you see ice agents shoving the pastor while another one pepper sprays him in the face. Now, that pastor, along with other protesters and a number of journalists are now suing the Trump administration.
[22:20:03]
They're alleging that federal agents used extreme brutality. And in response to that lawsuit, DHS is acknowledging the veracity of the video, but claims it doesn't show the protesters blocking an ICE vehicle. DHS says that law enforcement warned them to move, but they didn't comply and began throwing objects at the roof.
Now, we should note that the video does not appear to support that claim, nor is there any vehicle shown. The gate there is closed.
In our fifth seat tonight, senior -- CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig is here with us. Elie, some of these things are going to start to become problematic, it seems, for the Trump administration. The -- even just that scene -- I mean, first of all, it's not that many people. They're standing on a rooftop. They're shooting pepper balls at people to their faces, which is completely against how those weapons are supposed to be used. And then in some of the other videos, they're also recording it. So, as these lawsuits are going forward, there's going to be a lot of evidence out there.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, I'm glad we showed that video because the way these lawsuits, and we've seen now at least four of them, right, California, Oregon, Illinois, will be heard tomorrow, D.C., they're going to be decided based on the realities on the ground. And, essentially, if I can sort of boil down what the various decisions have been, is that we, the federal courts, are going to give the president deference, in fact, great deference. We're going to give him the benefit of the doubt about if he says there's an emergency necessitating National Guard or other military.
However, he can't just make it up. He can't just send military or other troops into a situation where there is no genuine threat to federal assets, federal resources, and the reason we're getting different results, I mean, California, he was allowed to deploy, so far, he has been blocked. In Oregon, we'll learn tomorrow probably about Illinois, is because you have different facts on the street. So, analysis of the kind of video we just looked at, testimony from people on the streets, that's what's going to be make or break in these lawsuits.
PHILLIP: So, Congressman, I'm going to play -- this is an interview with the border chief, Greg Bovino. He was talking to our colleague, Priscilla Alvarez, about when they decide to stop people. And here's what he said.
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GREGORY BOVINO, CBP CHIEF PATROL AGENT, EL CENTRO SECTOR: Perhaps you look panicked when you see a Border Patrol agent. Perhaps you look scared. Perhaps your demeanor changes. Perhaps you're gripping the steering wheel so tightly that I can see the whites of your knuckles. There's a myriad of factors that we would look at to develop articulable facts for reasonable suspicion.
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PHILLIP: So, if you're scared, apparently, that is, according to him, reason for them to arrest, detained, whatever. I mean, what do you think when you hear that?
GOLDMAN: Well, you have to add in the fact that many of these ICE agents are masked. They're plain clothes, they're unidentified and they're violent. So, yes, people are going to be scared because you have these unidentified masked agents who are screaming and violent and causing excess, using excessive force a lot. So, naturally, you're going to be scared.
And we're seeing it all over the country, seeing it here in New York, where an ICE agent shoved a woman to the ground who was lamenting the fact that her husband had been taking. By the way, both of them were here with an asylum application ongoing, so that is a lawful pathway to get here. He was originally suspended and then was reinstated for some undetermined reason.
This is going on all over the country. It is excessive, and the American people recognize that we can have a robust immigration enforcement system without this kind of violence.
WILLIAMS: That's absolute crap.
GOLDMAN: And without this secret police Mafioso.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely not true. You just criminalized the law enforcement. You just pretended there for a moment that for some reason the law enforcement is the only one who's masked and violent. And the protesters are showing up and blocking ice vehicles and raining bricks down on their roof and wearing masks themselves and being thugs to the media for that case. I mean, why aren't we caring about the media who are being attacked? The reality is the boots on the ground --
GOLDMAN: They also --
WILLIAMS: The troops, the boots on the ground, the troops, the law enforcement, they are the ones who deserve deference in this, not the protesters.
And I think what the American people are really sick of is the idea that Antifa and thugs and people who want to protest the police and paid agitators who come from out of state, they can show up and do whatever they want and that people will go on the air and say, you know, the law enforcement really needs to calm down. No. How about this? Protesters stop showing up with masks on, protesters stop showing up with --
GOLDMAN: You just saw a video where they were doing nothing.
PHILLIP: Did protesters need to not be masked, but ICE agents can be masked?
LYMAN: Well, ICE agents have to be masked because they're being (INAUDIBLE).
PHILLIP: ICE agents do not have to be masked.
(CROSSTALKS)
[22:25:00]
LYMAN: To protect their safety.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. There are ICE agents -- I watch a lot of these videos, okay? There are some that are masked and some that are not. So, clearly, even within the same group of ICE agents that are conducting the same operation, some choose to go masked and some don't. They don't have to be masked.
But my question's a lot simpler. Is it okay for protestors to be masked if ICE agents are masked? Is it?
WILLIAMS: Is it okay for protesters being masked?
PHILLIP: Yes.
WILLIAMS: If they want to wear a mask, it's fine, but why are we complaining about the police? That's my point.
PHILLIP: You just -- I mean, well, you were complaining about them being masked.
WILLIAMS: My point is if there are apps that are being created, Abby, and that's the thing, there are apps that are being created that are -- the sole purpose is to dox ICE agents. And there are people showing up at their houses and their family is being threatened. Why would we not?
PHILLIP: I think all of that is terrible.
GOLDMAN: Do you know this for a fact, because I've been hearing this, I have not seen ICE (INAUDIBLE) and you're ignoring about a thousand percent upswing and all this stuff. I haven't seen examples of that.
WILLIAMS: We just had shootings in Dallas and Alvarado, Texas, at ICE facilities.
(CROSSTALKS)
GOLDMAN: I was very quick to condemn that. That's unacceptable and those people should --
WILLIAMS: That's a clear example of what we're talking about.
PHILLIP: There have been attacks on ICE facilities, it's important to note that. But, I mean, what we were talking about before we got to this point was about their interaction in these stops, right? And the question actually to Bovino was about whether they were profiling people, whether they were just looking at people and saying, oh, you look Mexican, I'm going to stop -- you look Mexican, and you're scared, I'm going to stop you. And I think that's the question that a lot of people are wondering right now is that, is that where we are as a country where you can just stop -- not only stop people, but detain them, you know, take away their liberty for any period of time just because of the way that they look?
WEST: No, we have enough evidence though, brother, that there has been racial profiling, especially for precious Latino brothers and sisters who are legal citizens. That's the kind of tear that's unwarranted, and we've got to be concerned about the arbitrary use of power, especially from it when it's above.
Now, we're not talking about demonizing any police or demonizing ICE. Now, I ran for president and I was trying to abolish ICE because I thought, in fact, that we ought to be able to relate to each other in such a way that we could talk about the rights and liberties of law enforcement rights and liberties of citizens, because that's the only way you're going to have some mechanisms of accountability to keep what's left of the democracy alive.
If we're dismissing arbitrary power from one camp and the other camp is only concerned about their camp, then you're not going to have any public life, whatsoever.
PHILLIP: Can you talk to us, Elie, about some of these cases that are coming up where these judges are going to be deciding some of these issues, the use of force, who they're stopping, the arbitrary nature of it? I mean, there's a case where some families were literally picked up in a park in Chicago, a public park in Chicago.
HONIG: So, to Dr. West's point, there was a Supreme Court opinion three, four weeks ago where the Supreme Court essentially said, it's okay to profile, right? ICE agents in California were stopping people, not disputed explicitly on the basis of whether they appeared to be from another country based on their skin color, if they were speaking another language, where they were, car wash, Home Depot, that kind of thing.
I thought, no way the Supreme Court's going to approve this, and the Supreme Court was the usual 6-3 split, said, that's okay. That's permissible, at least for the time being. I mean --
WEST: Well, that's where the court is wrong.
HONIG: Well, right. But, I mean, in a criminal context, you could never do that. You know, in immigration, there's broader leeway, but that's where we are. That's the law.
WEST: That's true.
PHILLIP: And if I remember correctly, Justice Kavanaugh in that -- in his writings on that case, basically, said, well, you know, when American citizens are detained, it's briefly just to question them. We know for a fact that that's not how it's gone for many Americans citizens, including some who have sued.
HONIG: Yes. Look, we take any detention, even a brief detention, that's an infringement on someone's freedom of movement and Fourth Amendment rights and others. And also those brief detentions then lead to questioning, which then lead to sometimes more long-term detention. So, very serious, very high stakes.
I mean, you know, Dan, you're a lawyer too. I mean, I was shocked by that opinion.
GOLDMAN: I couldn't believe it. I mean, it literally -- it legitimized racial profiling. And I just -- I think the issue here is not that people who commit crimes and who are here who are immigrants that commit crimes, whether they should be deported or not, I certainly think they should.
The difference in what's going on is that despite the promises of Donald Trump, of Stephen Miller to get the worst of the worst, 70 percent of the immigration detainees in New York City have no criminal record. And many people who are here lawfully, green card citizens are getting swept up with the racial profiling, because if you're from Puerto Rico, you know, you get swept up in the exact same description that Elie had, and you're a citizen.
[22:30:05]
And people -- citizens are getting deported. Nobody's getting their due process rights.
And the point and the problem here is not that we're enforcing the immigration laws. The problem is that we're not abiding by the rest of our constitutional rights and due process, and to make sure that everyone has the right to a hearing, the right to, you know, go through a court process, many of whom are not.
PHILLIP: Hey, I've even seen, I mean, look, there are so many videos out there, right? Not all of them we can show you. I've seen a lot of videos that, you know, ICE agents searching people's vehicles, doing all kinds of things. And I mean, all of this stuff is going to end up being pushed through the courts but not soon enough to prevent people from experiencing violations of their rights as this is rolling through American cities.
(CROSSTALK) PHIL WILLIAMS, "RIGHTSIDE RADIO" AND "JUST RIGHT PODCAST" HOST: Yeah, and I'll be honest with you. I mean, we're having a gathering of lawyers here. I'm an attorney myself.
CORNEL WEST, "TRUTH MATTERS" AUTHOR: I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer.
WILLIAMS: We should all get continuing legal --
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: But the reality is, I looked at that and I did not see racial profiling in the decision from the Supremes. I saw criminal profiling was being allowed. And I think what you have to look at is law enforcement has always been allowed to allow certain grounds for reasonable suspicion and then they act upon it.
But the other issue we have with people getting swept up that don't have criminal issues, where they're still here illegally, what's happening is sanctuary cities are not allowing ICE to go into the jail and take the actual criminal. And so, when they go and serve a warrant at the house and they find five more in the House, they have no choice but to also detain them. So yes, there are more people being swept up that aren't criminals --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: That's actually not true.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: -- their illegal immigration. But that is actually true. And Tom Holman just announced out the other day that he's tired of sanctuary cities not allowing them into a jail because it would make it safer on ICE and safer on the illegal immigrant --
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: No, they're not allowed when they're under arrest. If they are convicted, if they have finished their sentence, then there is cooperation so that they will go from the jail to immigration detention to be deported. That does happen. Yes, they are not saying, yeah, go ahead.
Any arrest is sufficient without having proven guilty or pled guilty that you can deport someone. So, there's a critical difference here that the people who are convicted criminals, who have served their sentence, there is cooperation in all of these so-called sanctuary cities with ICE.
ELIE HONIG, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Real quick. I do not approve of sanctuary cities. I would like to see locals cooperate with Feds. Dan's right, as well. What was happening is the Feds were asking locals, hold this guy three days after his release date so we can come get him. You can't extend a prison sentence like that. I dealt with that directly. That's not okay. WILLIAMS: But then you've got things like Chicago having anti-ICE
facilities.
PHILLIP: Yeah, which I don't know that that's actually a real thing. That was just a statement from the mayor of Chicago. Next for us, the President is calling to jail his opponents and bragging about taking free speech away. We'll discuss that. Plus, a week into the government shutdown, tempers are flaring in the halls of Capitol Hill.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:37:41]
PHILLIP: As MAGA lectures critics about calling them fascists and autocrats, the President is calling to jail and silence his opponents. Donald Trump says that Chicago's mayor and the governor of Illinois should be locked up. And here's how they responded tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRANDON JOHNSON (D) CHICAGO MAYOR: It's certainly not the first time that Donald Trump has called for the arresting of a black man unjustly. I'm not going anywhere.
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D) ILLINOIS: He's insecure. He's a wannabe dictator. And there's one thing I really want to say to Donald Trump. If you come from my people, you come through me. So come and get me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The President also said that Senator Richard Blumenthal should no longer be allowed to speak publicly and he is now also casually declaring that he took away the First Amendment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We took the freedom of speech away because that's been through the courts and the court said you have freedom of speech but what has happened is when they burn a flag it agitates and irritates crowds, they've never seen anything like it on both sides and you end up with riots.
So we're going on that basis. We're looking at it from not --from the freedom of speech, which I always felt strongly about, but never passed the courts. This is what they do is they incite. When you burn an American flag, you incite tremendous violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So Brianna, I mean, conservatives want liberals to stop calling Trump, you know, authoritarian, fascist, whatever it is. But he's also doing things like saying he's getting rid of the First Amendment. He is calling for the jailing of his political opponents, including a governor and a mayor. They're not allowed to categorize that or, you know, describe that in a way that Trump doesn't like? BRIANNA LYMAN, "THE FEDERALIST" REPORTER": Well, I don't think that's
an accurate representation of what's happening. I'll start with the flag burning thing. Donald Trump's executive order did not make it illegal for flag burning. I got to be honest, I didn't see that clip. But given that last week, CNN told me children were being zip tied and that didn't turn out to be true. I don't want to comment on if that's true or not. But Americans are --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You don't want to comment if the clip is true?
LYMAN: On what the context of the clip is.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, he was talking about the flag burning issue.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: On the flag-burning issue -- on the flag burning issue --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And I agree with you. In the flag burning, CEO is nonsense.
[22:40:00]
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But in his mind, he thinks that it outlaws flag burning and it's --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: I don't -- don't think he thinks that. I think it's just a tongue-in-cheek comment and I think Americans are extremely disheartened. We are coming up on the 250th anniversary of the greatest country ever created, and to see people burning the American flag is not good for the patriotic spirit.
To his comments about Governor Pritzker and Mayor Johnson, let's be clear. Impeding federal law enforcement officers from doing their job is serious and should be taken seriously. I have a problem that we're sitting around tonight talking about a tweet instead of focusing on the fact that there are agents having their cars rammed into. They are having bricks and rocks thrown at them. That video you played in the first segment about the pastor the priest, they were throwing items at the law enforcement officer --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That's what -- that's what ICE says but there's also no corroboration of that. So, I think we should just be clear.
(CROSSTALK) UNKNOWN: Oh, yeah, there is. They were wearing body cams. Absolutely --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hey, if I -- if there are body cams --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Have you seen it?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- I would like to see it because I think that there -- we don't have video that corroborates that part of it and that -- and there that video is longer --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Sure, okay. Imagine I --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: The car ramming --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Part of what you're saying, hold on. Donald Trump's -- he signed an executive order. Maybe it has no force whatsoever, but in his mind, he wants to outlaw flag burning, which is constitutionally --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: It was outlawed up to when I came in.
PHILLIP: And yeah, I think it's totally fine to disagree with Brandon Johnson and Pritzker and how they are responding to Trump. But he is saying they should go to jail. That doesn't cross the line for you?
LYMAN: Well, I think that impeding federal law enforcement, when we have a country that voted last November for law and order to be restored and they are actively impeding it, creating sanctuary cities, Cook County -- you actually touched on this earlier --
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
LYMAN: -- Cook County with the detainer request, they do not honor ICE detainer request. So, when they're actively impeding law enforcement, it should be taken seriously. Whether or not that means jailing someone, I don't know. But it should be taken seriously.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, you can't be like, well, maybe they -- maybe they should be jailed. I mean, should they be jailed? HONIG: There's an important distinction here between impeding law
enforcement and declining to cooperate with law enforcement, all right? So, I'll give you an example. There was a case in Wisconsin where a state judge was arrested because she essentially took someone who was wanted by immigration. They're waiting to arrest him. She showed him the back door. He got out. She's been charged with obstruction.
I think that's a valid charge. I don't think that's an abuse, But because she affirmatively interfered with ICE trying to do their jobs. But simply saying, we are going to decline to make our local resources available to you. They have the right to do that. It's not a crime.
And what Trump says in that, Truth social is not impeding. He says they are not supporting ICE. They're failing to protect ICE. They should go to jail. Failing to protect ICE, not a crime, not anything anyone should go to jail --
(CROSSTALK)
HONIG: -- to be thrown around --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Except when you a call -- except when you have a call from agents under duress and they call for backup and the locals deny it which happened the other day and that's reprehensible.
PHILLIP: That didn't happen.
WILLIAMS: That absolutely happened.
PHILLIP: No, no. That didn't happen.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
WILLIAMS: No, we actually -- we've seen -- we've seen the actual narrative come out of the 911 dispatch.
PHILLIP: Phil, listen. We actually went over this on the show shortly after that incident happened. When that call came in, first of all, CPD, Chicago P.D. did respond. They responded, they were on the scene. They were -- they got gassed just like everybody else who was on the scene.
That message, that internal message that was reported on after the fact, that came, two and half hours after the incident occurred. And there's no evidence that CPD did not show up on the scene. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that they did. So, I do think that, let's just be honest about what's happening here.
WILLIAMS: Well, let's also not --
PHILLIP: I don't think there's any -- I don't -- look. If DHS has actual documented proof that they have called for help and no help has come, they should provide that proof, but I have not seen it. And on top of that, there are other examples of CPD showing up in response to 911 calls and finding absolutely nothing happening.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Let's not pretend -- Abby, let's not pretend -- let's not pretend for a second that Chicago's mayor, Brandon Johnson, who's never led a thing in his life until he became mayor, who, by the way, if stupid was a crime, he'd be facing a life sentence. But the reality is let's not pretend as we sit here today that he is in some way cooperative with ICE and really wants to get along --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I didn't say he was.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: He's doing everything he can to impede ICE efforts. And his city is eight up with crime right now.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, he is objectively not cooperative with ICE. But the question is, is it a crime to not cooperate with ICE?
UNKNOWN: No.
PHILLIP: And I think in this country, it's very clearly not.
GOLDMAN: Look, it -- ICE is-- you may not know it from the militarization of ICE right now, but this is civil immigration enforcement. This is not criminal immigration enforcement, and it's not criminal law enforcement. And so, you're asking states and cities to use their own limited resources to help civil enforcement actions. And that's why a lot of these states and cities. Can I just point one thing out, Abby, that has struck me now 45 minutes into this?
[22:45:00]
You have had to fact check Phil, Brianna, significantly tonight. Because there's so many allegations that are talking points that we hear about on other networks that are just not supported by the facts.
LYMAN: You're not going to sit here and fact check us when you spread the rush of clodding and hoax. Come on.
GOLDMAN: I didn't actually fact check you. Abby did.
LYMAN: Come on. You just -- please.
GOLDMAN: She knows it better than I did. But I think that's part of the issue that we are having is that we're picking out-- some people are picking out anecdotal stories that are not supported with any evidence or proof -- (CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: You have members of Congress of your own party protesting at ICE --
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: I'm happy to let you speak.
WILLIAMS: The reality is you just poked at me, but I'm telling you right now you've got members of your own party showing up at protests, members of Congress being arrested for protesting at ICE facilities, and you want to poke at us as to whether or not we're being fact- checked?
PHILLIP: But hold on.
WILLIAMS: How about this? The Democrats have got the wrong --
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: What's your -- what's your --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: You're absolutely on the wrong side -- you're on the wrong side of history on all of this, and you know it. You're on the absolute wrong side of history. Your party ruined the border control policies of this -- of this nation. You let 11 to 12 to 13 million people stream across the border.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: I guarantee you --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: And now we're dealing with it.
GOLDMAN: I can guarantee you --
WILLIAMS: And you don't want deal with the fact that we have to deal with that.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: -- that you are on the wrong side of history because this President is authoritarian and he is a fascist.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Oh, please.
WILLIAMS: Oh, my God.
GOLDMAN: Saying that, it does not -- hold on, hold on. (CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: That is assassination prep language. That is, no, I'm sorry.
GOLDMAN: Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: There is violence against Republicans --
PHILLIP: Brianna, Brianna.
GOLDMAN: That is not inciting violence.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Oh, wait, wait. Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: Characterize the actions --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. Hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: The anti-Democratic actions that this president is consistently taking, including canceling the first amendment.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I've had to say this a couple of times -- I've had to say this a couple of times on the show --
(CROSSTALK)
WEST: That is so sad.
PHILLIP: -- because I don't think Republicans, many Republicans, remember, and I do have the tape, I can play it for you if you want, that this President, President Trump, has repeatedly used the word fascist to describe his political opponents. Do you -- is it still your position that that is -- how did you describe it?
LYMAN: Assassination prep campaign and it's unacceptable.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Assassination prep -- you still think that's the case?
LYMAN: Assassination -- absolutely. And I'll give you --
PHILLIP: So, even though Donald Trump assassinated described --
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: Assassination prep campaign?
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Let me explain.
PHILLIP: He has described his political opponents using the exact language. You still think that that is incitement to assassination?
LYMAN: I mean, I would love to hear the clips but I do think --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. Well, let's play it.
LYMAN: I do think it's incitement and I will --
PHILLIP: Let's go -- let's go have them play it.
LYMAN: I mean, I'm still going to have the same answer. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's a choice between communism and freedom. This is communist, this is Marxist, this is fascist. There's a radical left Marxist, communist, fascist. She's a Marxist, she's a fascist. These far-left fascists led by Harris and her group -- comrade Kamala Harris. If comrade Kamala Harris gets four more years, you will be living a full-blown banana republic ruled by an anarchy and a tyranny. They're scum. They're scum. And they want to take down our country. They are absolute garbage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LYMAN: I do --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I may have to play this until the end of time, but let's not have a short memory.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Look, I respect the both sides' attempt right here right now, but I think in the current political climate -- in the current political climate, when the political violence has been directed to one side, which is to my side, the right side --
GOLDMAN: No, it's not.
LYMAN: -- oh, it's not? Did Charlie Kirk just get assassinated a month ago on the today?
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Charlie Kirk? Alvarado, Texas? (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
GOLDMAN: Are you aware of Minnesota? Are you aware of -- Donald Trump --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: --by a guy who had a flag that said, "No Kings", or flyers that said, "No Kings"?
PHILLIP: Hold on. Hold on, Brianna.
LYMAN: Who was appointed by Tim Walz?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Brianna, listen. There's a more fundamental issue here. It's not about both sides. It's actually about whether you're asserting that using certain words --
LYMAN: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- is essentially violence. And I'm trying to argue to you that if you're going to apply that standard to Congressman Goldman, you got to apply it to Donald Trump.
LYMAN: But I just said --
PHILLIP: And if you don't apply it to Donald Trump and you don't think that that's violence, then I don't understand how this works.
LYMAN: Abby, I don't know if maybe you weren't listening to what I just said. I just said it's unacceptable for no matter who it is to call someone else a fascist.
PHILLIP: Okay.
LYMAN: And let me explain the assassination prep language. When people hear the word fascist, Nazi, Hitler, you rightfully think of people in the 1940s who had to be defeated by any means necessary because of what they were doing to this world.
So, when you call someone like Charlie Kirk, when you call someone like Speaker Gilbert, like Jay Jones, who I don't know if your viewers know this because it hasn't been discussed on this show in four days, when the Attorney General candidate in Virginia is calling for two bullets to the head for Speaker Gilbert and calling his little children fascists, you are implicitly justifying resistance by any means necessary with that language. No matter who says it, Republican or Democrat, it is unacceptable language to use --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You just jumped from using the language fascist to two bullets in the head. Those are not the same thing. That's a big part of the point.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And listen. Hold on. Listen, violence, obviously, is reprehensible. But I don't -- it's -- I don't understand how you can suddenly say it's only a problem when one side says--
LYMAN: I didn't say that.
PHILLIP: Well, listen, because you were like, well, it's our side that's --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: We're actually getting targeted.
PHILLIP: I'm actually trying to argue that neither side should be accused of violence just because of the words that they use.
[22:50:03]
I thought that's what conservatives believe, that words were not violence, that words were just words.
LYMAN: I think again you're maybe not listening to what I said. I just said that both sides should not be using that language. And when it comes to actual violence, it is the conservatives who are being targeted with violence.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay. Actual violence is actual violence. Words are words.
WEST: That's of the challenge here.
PHILLIP: Okay, we got to continue this after a quick break. Hold on one second. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: All right, welcome back. I'm going to go right to Cornel West who had some thoughts right before lunch break.
WEST: Well, I wanted to put in a word in defense of civil disobedience that one is going to jail on many occasions. I think one of the measures of whether fascism and rhetoric and practice is actually being enacted is an acknowledgement that you can engage in civil disobedience without demonizing the other, without calling into question the possibilities of rights and liberties for others.
Every modern society has a fascist tradition. America has a fascist tradition. It's not just a rhetorical gesture. It has analytical content to it. And the great Philip Roth has written about it with great insight, Charles Lindberg and others.
So, when we talk about fascism, we ought to say, well, if you're talking about arbitrary use of power, mass repression, rule of big military, rule of big business, and scapegoating the most vulnerable, it could be Jews in Germany. It could be dollars in India. It could be black people or brown people in America. Fascism is a tradition.
PHILLIP: It's a fair point. I mean, it's not just a word, it's a word that is being applied to real things that are happening in the world. Is it valid to describe it in that way if people are seeing it with their own eyes?
WILLIAMS: I'm not sure what you're asking me.
PHILLIP: He's saying that it's not just a word, it's what Trump is doing essentially that is being described that way.
[22:55:00]
And the actions are there for everybody to see.
(CROSSTALK)
WEST: What you talking about, jailing your opposition? That has a fascist --
LYMAN: You mean like what Biden did?
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Biden's got his problems. But we're not talking about the other side right now, zeroing in on --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I think we're talking about all sides though, Professor.
WEST: Yeah, okay.
WILLIAMS: But the reality is, I mean, I'm not sure where we are right now. I think the rhetoric is strong. There's nobody saying that it's not. But I completely agree with what was said a moment ago about the fact that the violent rhetoric that we're seeing. Like Brandon Johnson, for instance, again, I hate to keep going back to him, but I mean, actually declaring civil war and making all the statements that he --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Wait, who was -- who was declaring civil war?
WILLIAMS: Well, he -- Brandon Johnson did. You didn't hear those clips? We can play that clip, too, if you want to. But the reality is he said, we are in a civil war right now with the Trump administration and using that kind of rhetoric is really not helpful to the situation. But I agree the only people that are dying or being attacked lately appear to be the ones on the right and I believe that it needs to get toned down like real soon.
PHILLIP: All right, we got to leave it there. Everyone, thank you very much for being here. Next for us, an important update tonight on Dolly Parton's health. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:44}
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOLLY PARTON, SINGER, SONGWRITER AND ACTRESS: Everybody thinks that I am sicker than I am. Do I look sick to you? I'm working hard here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Dolly Parton says that she is doing just fine after her sister asked fans for prayers, sparking concern about her health. We are happy to hear that. And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
