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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Lays Off 4,000-Plus Federal Workers Amid Shutdown; Tempers Flare on Capitol Hill as Shutdown Enters Second Week; MAGA Livid Over Trump Not Getting Nobel Peace Price; Trump Allows Qatar To Build An Air Base On American Soil; New Questions On Who Calls The Shots At DOJ. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 10, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, the shutdown gets real. The Trump administration starts to fire federal workers as tensions boil over between the supposed dealmakers.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): He's afraid that a Marxist is going to challenge him in his reelection.
PHILLIP: Plus, as the world anxiously awaits the release of hostages, MAGA is mad that Donald Trump didn't get this year's Nobel Prize.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm introducing a resolution for a sense of Congress today that will honor him with the Nobel Peace Prize.
PHILLIP: Also the president used to call them backers of terror.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: The nation of Qatar, unfortunately, has historically been a funder of terrorism.
PHILLIP: Now he's allowing Qatar to build a base inside the United States.
And in the dark, Trump's attorney general had no idea that his handpicked prosecutor executed an indictment against Letitia James. So, who's calling the shots on the retribution tour?
Live at the table, Kara Swisher, Scott Jennings, Congresswoman Marilyn Strickland and Lance Trover.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
We are back in the test kitchen at the Food Network, our sister company for Fall Fridays. We'll catch up with the crowd over there later in the show. But, first, breaking news tonight, the president is laying off more than 4,000 federal workers as punishment, it seems, for the government shutdown. Now, with Congress deadlocked and no end in sight, the White House budget director posted this ominous message on X, quote, the reductions in force have begun.
Now, the largest union for the federal employees representing more than 800,000 workers quickly responded in turn writing, quote, the lawsuit has been filed. The layoffs include seven different departments, and the president confirmed them tonight, putting the blame squarely on Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: How many layoffs have you authorized for this first round and from which agencies?
TRUMP: And it would be Democrat-oriented because we figured, you know, they started this thing, so they should be Democrat-oriented. It'll be a lot. And we'll announce the numbers over the next couple of days, but it'll be a lot of people, all because of the Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: We have a congresswoman with us tonight, so I'll direct this question to you. How long do you think that this shutdown will go on, and how much pain, I think, are Democratic leaders willing to absorb? Because those 4,000 workers probably won't get their jobs back after this because this is what Russ Vought and President Trump have wanted to do all along.
REP. MARILYN STRICKLAND (D-WA): So, you're actually right, Abby. This is what they've wanted to do all along. They started firing people in February. So, this idea that this is something new that they're doing is not necessarily true. They were going to fire people no matter what happened. And this is unfortunate because the Republicans control the House, the Republicans control the Senate, the Republicans control the White House. So, any shutdown that we have is 100 percent on them. They fully own this.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Who's voting for the -- against the continuing resolution in the Senate right now? Who's voting -- which party's voting against it?
STRICKLAND: So, there may be a party voting against it. But if you want to get someone to come in your direction, you offer an olive branch to say, here's what we can do together. There's no desire to do that on the part of the Republicans who have the majority. That's what's happening right now.
JENNINGS: So, basically, she won't say it. The Democratic Party is refusing to vote for a continuing resolution in the Senate that they voted for 13 times when Joe Biden was the president. You asked how long this is going to go on. You go on cnn.com right now and you can read an article where a Democratic adviser said, quote, this will keep going until planes start falling out of the sky. That is the kind of political party we're dealing with.
PHILLIP: LET me just read, what you're referring to, two things. One Punchbowl, Senator Schumer is quoted saying, every day gets better for us. And today, CNN reported, another senior Democratic aide said, as long as public perception is in their favor, the party will not concede short of planes falling out of the sky.
[22:05:03]
Now, I don't know that either of those quotes, frankly, are well- advised, but the second point that this Democratic aid is making is that public opinion is in their favor. Do you think that's true, Kara?
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I don't think anyone likes the government to be shut down, or dunking (ph), like that just what happened here. I mean, I think most people because it's --
JENNINGS: To tell the truth about things about being said in the press.
SWISHER: No, but it's reductive. You're all trying to do --
JENNINGS: You're upset that I read a quote from the Democrat-backed --
SWISHER: I'm not upset. You know how that quote was. Republicans make all kinds of nonsensical comments all time.
JENNINGS: You can make apologies for it.
SWISHER: I'm not making an apology for it. You're doing it again. I mean, I know it works with other people, but it doesn't work with me in that case.
JENNINGS: Yes, that's because I read the news.
SWISHER: No. Oh right, I don't read the news. But here's the one thing that's missing (INAUDIBLE).
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let's let her finish her thought.
SWISHER: Nobody likes this. And the idea of the teams of it is kind of ridiculous. The people of the country want government to function, even with the continuing resolutions. They want it to function, they want past budgets. Everybody does that every day in their own homes. And so I don't think anybody wins in this thing.
PHILLIP: The other -- I mean, the other part of it though, even while these statements from Democrats are what Scott is pointing to, the president literally today said, we're going to target the pain at workers who they describe as Democrats. Now, I don't know the politics of these workers who are employed in the federal government, but it sure does seem like on the president's part, his version of a victory lap to say, we're going to fire people as punishment for what Democratic leaders in Congress are doing.
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I mean, it's called leverage. We're in a pretty big fight here over the government. But those workers are members of unions who give 100 percent of their donations to Democrats. Let's remember who they support and what they do. But I want to talk about --
PHILLIP: But is that what you're saying, that there's -- hold on. Is that what -- is what you're saying that the punishment for this should be leveled at workers who are Democrats? Is that --
TROVER: I'm just pointing out a fact that the fact is that these unions, that they're a part of these unions, give 100 percent to Democrats. That is a fact.
PHILLIP: So what?
TROVER: That's legal.
SWISHER: And these workers are Republicans too.
PHILLIP: But so what? That's what I'm trying to understand is like for people at home who are watching this, and they're trying to understand, okay, if there's a dispute here about who's doing a victory lap, you have the president basically saying, if you're a Democrat, we're going to punish you even if you're not in Congress, you can't cast a vote. You're now responsible for it.
TROVER: This argument is so ridiculous, it is on the president. To Scott's point --
PHILLIP: I didn't say it was on the president. I just read --
TROVER: That is exactly --
PHILLIP: I mean, Lance, I read the quote from Schumer and the Democratic, but I'm asking about the president's comments too, because those are relevant.
TROVER: The president's comments are relevant, but it is called leverage in this fight over keeping the government open. That's what both sides do. Your side thinks they have leverage right now over this healthcare issue, but I was going to quote one of your own members or colleagues, Jared Golden, who sent an email to all of his constituents today. And in the question it said, there's one Democrat who said, what does this healthcare fight have to do with keeping the government open? Absolutely nothing. You guys could go and vote and put these people back to work right now, but you don't want to do it because, again, yes, Chuck Schumer is scared of AOC, you know, fighting him in New York. I mean, that's the only reason you're holding out on that.
STRICKLAND: This has nothing -- here's the deal. So --
TROVER: Because everything --
STRICKLAND: -- 15 million people losing healthcare is not a trivial matter. And here's the issue. Okay, government stays open. Do you know how often this Republican administration goes back on what they say? So they can say, oh, yes, we're going to cut a deal with you, everything's going to be fine. And then they go back and do rescissions and they cut everything they said they would do. So they cannot be trusted. That's the issue here.
And let's talk about this. That's the big issue in all of this. No one likes a government shutdown, but here we are right now, 15 million people losing healthcare. 70 percent of people in nursing homes actually get that paid through Medicaid. Taking food from hungry children, these things are simply unacceptable to Democrats.
PHILLIP: Let me play one more comment. This is from Speaker Mike Johnson, and he was visibly angry and upset today. I mean, yesterday, he had a pretty rough day. He was hearing from constituents on C-Span, but he is claiming that Democrats are holding out on reopening the government because of a rally that's scheduled on October 18th. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: I am a very patient guy, but I have had it with these people. They're playing games with real people's lives. The theory we have right now, they have a hate America rally that's scheduled for October 18th on the National Mall. It's all the pro-Hamas wing and, you know, the Antifa people, they're all coming out. Some of the House Democrats are selling T-shirts for the event, and it's being told to us that they won't be able to reopen the government until after that rally because they can't face their rabid base. I mean, this is serious business hurting real people. And just -- I'm beyond words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SWISHER: I am beyond words. There's only one rabid base on them all, most recently in January 6th.
[22:10:00]
It's a rally. It's called No Kings. It's not called the Hate America rally. How ridiculous that is. It's just a rally. And, again --
TROVER: Have you been one of these rallies? Have you seen the signs they carry?
(CROSSTALKS)
TROVER: Have you seen the signs they carry? Impeach, prison, fascist, F Trump.
SWISHER: Put her in jail.
TROVER: These aren't people who aren't exactly rooting for America.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Lance, I don't think that's the domain of Democrats. I don't think that that is the exclusive domain of Democrats.
Hold on, Lance. I don't think that any of those things that you just said are the exclusive domain of Democrats.
The current president of the United States campaigned on, lock her up and then lock up the person who beat him in the 2020 election.
So -- but, I mean, Kara's point is actually much more basic. It's a protest. It's an anti-Trump protest, but it is a protest and we are allowed to do that in these United States of America, are we not?
TROVER: I didn't say -- I never argued against that. I'm just saying these aren't people who are exactly cheering on America right now.
JENNINGS: You can cry government layoffs on the one hand and say, well, we at least got to keep it closed long enough to have our rally on the other. I mean, it makes you sound disingenuous to be upset.
PHILLIP: I mean, I'm not sure where -- I mean, look I'm not sure where Mike Johnson's hearing that, but maybe he's hearing that.
SWISHER: He didn't. He made it up. He made it up.
PHILLIP: But I also would say that Mike Johnson seems to also be in a different place from the president because he is saying that this is hurting people. Meanwhile, the executive branch is saying, well, this is our golden opportunity to fire people. So, which one is it?
JENNINGS: Well, Mike Johnson, I think is understandably upset. He is the speaker of the House. They went on the floor and he led his party to pass a continuing resolution to keep the government open. I think he's enormously frustrated that he can't get Democrats to do the same thing in the United States Senate. He's done his job. They've done their work. The government would be open if Mike Johnson and the Republicans in the house had their way.
PHILLIP: I didn't even get to the Hamas of it all, but I do -- I mean, I do wonder, I mean, is that called for?
STRICKLAND: Well, first of all, it's ridiculous. This is not the first No Kings rally, by the way. There was one this summer. So, this is the second No Kings Rally. And Speaker Johnson didn't have to refer to Marxist and pro-Hamas.
But here's what's interesting. Every time this administration and Speaker Johnson start to lose the argument or get panicked, they push the immigration panic button. That's not getting any traction, so now they're pressing the Marxist panic button, the pro-Hamas panic button. So, this is just another way for him to deflect from what's happening. And because people want to peacefully assemble and use their right to express themselves, he's now trying to characterize these as pro-Hamas rallies. That's not what these are. If you've been to these rallies, you will see who's there.
SWISHER: They're just rallies. Also, and if the frogs show up, it should be --
STRICKLAND: Right, exactly. SWISHER: The Portland frogs. It's just a rally and it's okay to do that. And Trump people do it all the time, like all the time, and it's fine. And they have hats and they have merchandise, and they have T- shirts. They sell them.
PHILLIP: And, hey, and they have crazy signs. And they have, I guess in the case of January 6th, they have gallows on January 6th. So, that happened too.
SWISHER: And they stormed the steps to the Capitol and they hurt people.
PHILLIP: Listen, this is a country where you're allowed to protest. You're just not allowed to get violent if you're doing that.
Next for us, the world is on edge waiting for the hostages to be returned in the Israel-Hamas deal. Does Donald Trump deserve the Nobel Prize for that deal? We'll debate.
Plus, MAGA is livid tonight after the President's administration announces that Qatar will build a base on U.S. soil.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: MAGA is in meltdown mode tonight after President Trump did not win his long coveted Nobel Peace Prize. Instead, the award went to Venezuela's opposition leader who led the pro-democracy movement in their election last year.
Now, Trump has made it no secret that he wants to have this Nobel Peace Prize, especially after he brokered the deal for a ceasefire plan in Gaza.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you deserve the Nobel Prize, do you think?
TRUMP: Everyone thinks so, but I would never say it.
I think I'm going to get a Nobel Prize for a lot of things, if they gave it as fairly, which they don't.
If I were named Obama, I would've had the Nobel Prize given in ten seconds.
I should have gotten it four or five times.
Will you get the Nobel Prize? Absolutely not. They'll give it. They'll give it to some guy that didn't do a damn thing.
What about the seven others? They should get a Nobel Prize for each one.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: The White House did not take this news well, saying that the Nobel Committee placed politics over peace and neither did some of Trump's most vocal supporters, they called it a snub. They said the committee is a loser and that the prize is beneath him.
I'm not sure why they're going nuclear at this very moment, only because it's not like this is the last opportunity for Trump to be up for this.
SWISHER: No.
PHILLIP: And also according to the schedule, January 31st was the deadline for nominations. He basically had not even been in office at that point. It was just too early. So, why lose your mind over this? Why burn the entire bridge?
SWISHER: I don't know. This is the strangest thing. And, you know, if he does something that's deserving of it, he will get it. That I don't think that's the case of a snub. And also he supported the woman who got it, who very much deserved it, by the way.
JENNINGS: And she supports him.
SWISHER: And she supports him and also all the things he is doing in Venezuela. So, it's kind of odd to -- and she dedicated it to him too. I mean, it wasn't like, but he wants the medal.
[22:20:01]
JENNINGS: But this is going to work out. I'll predict tonight he will get it next year. There's no one else on planet Earth more deserving of it. The nominations will go in.
PHILLIP: No one else on Planet Earth?
JENNINGS: By January. And look at all the peace deals he's brokered.
What's happening -- by the way, what's happening in the Middle East, what's happening with the hostages, brokering this peace agreement is the most historic moment of his presidency. He's going to go over there and Monday morning, as I understand it, he's going to be there when these hostages are coming out. He's going to meet with the families and then he is going to go to Egypt and sign historic documents on Middle East peace. This is the most historic and interesting moment of his presidency and maybe of any presidency in the recent era.
Of course, he deserves it, and he'll get nominated sometime between now and January for this moment. And when we get it to him next year, everybody ought to root for because it's not just an award for him. It'll be an award for American leadership on the world stage, which is a good thing.
PHILLIP: Congresswoman, do you think he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize if this deal actually is carried out? STRICKLAND: Well, first of all, if we're able to have peace in the Mideast, that is a good thing, releasing the hostage, having Hamas be eliminated or not be in charge anymore, and having peace in the Mideast, that's a really big deal.
But as far as like why did he not get it this year, to your point, right, the deadline was in January. But it's kind of interesting because he's been a little obsessed about the Nobel Peace Prize for a long time, so much so that President Obama lives rent free in his head because he talks about him a lot. But if he wins it, absolutely.
PHILLIP: I mean, but do you think that he would deserve it for this particular --
STRICKLAND: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. We're able to get the hostage home and have peace in the Mideast. That is a good thing. We should all celebrate that.
TROVER: I actually think was nominated -- I think he was nominated in December by Congressman Claudia Tenney. He was nominated prior to. So, I think there is a level of frustration.
PHILLIP: But not for this. You're talking about last December?
TROVER: Not for this, no. This didn't happen. But from the Abraham Accords and other things, I think from the first administration.
SWISHER: Nobody lobbies like this. And if there is an accord, then it is. Then --
TROVER: Well, I think there's also some frustration from MAGA world. If you look, four presidents have got the Nobel Peace Prize, three of whom are Democrats. One was Barack Obama. He was barely in office like six, seven months before he got the Nobel Peace Prize. They gave one to Al Gore in his second career as a climate alarmist. I mean, he got that in 2007. So, you can understand there's some frustration given what just took place and why they're like, hey, what's going on here?
SWISHER: Well --
PHILLIP: Let me just play.
SWISHER: I know. But can I just say one thing?
PHILLIP: Yes.
SWISHER: This is not that kind of like, it's not a kids' soccer team where everybody gets a statue.
STRICKLAND: A participation trophy.
SWISHER: It seems so strange to -- I know you actually think it's odd to fixate on it. He will get it next year if there's -- if he brokers this peace deal. I think Scott's right about that.
TROVER: Again, you're saying fixated on it. I mean, yes, obviously he wants it. I mean, there's no question he wants it. Of course --
PHILLIP: He is definitely fixated on it.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: He's definitely fixated on it. But I want to play for those who didn't hear what he had to say, he had a phone conversation with the woman who did win the Nobel Peace Prize, and as you all noted, she dedicated the Peace Prize to him in terms of his support for the Venezuelan, you know, liberation movement. But here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The person who actually got the Nobel Prize called today, called me, and said that I'm accepting this in honor of you because you really deserved it, a very nice thing to do. I didn't say then give it to me though, right? I think she might have. She was very nice. And, you know, I've been helping her along the way.
And you could also say it was given out for '24 and I was running for office in '24, you know, all of the transactions that we did in terms of closing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Well, look, I mean, it seems like maybe he's coming to terms with the fact that this is, in a way, a bit backward-looking the way that they award this prize. But I also think the awarding of this prize to Machado also raises some other parts of this, which is that, you know, the Peace Prize Committee chairman described it as awarding the room or awarding this prize based on courage and integrity. And this is a person who, you know, she is physically putting her life on the line for this and for freedom of expression, freedom of the press, democracy, et cetera.
And some people have raised questions about whether Trump's conduct at home domestically cuts against an argument for the Peace Prize, specifically the accusations that he's trying to suppress the freedom of press, that he -- I mean, he literally said a couple of days ago that he's getting rid of freedom of speech when it comes to flag burning and how he deals with opposition in this country. I mean, do you think that would be fair to take into consideration for the Peace Prize Committee?
JENNINGS: I think that sounds like petty sniping, to be honest. I think it's a Nobel Peace Prize.
[22:25:00]
This is the peace president. He's brokered peace deals all over the world. This one happening right now, and this has dominated our world conversation for the last two years, what happened to Israel on October the 7th, what happened to the hostages, what's going on in Gaza. If this gets solved and everyone involved has said it would not have been solved, if not but for Donald Trump, I don't know how you don't give it to him. If they don't give it to him over this, then this thing is completely and totally lost all meaning and who would want it?
SWISHER: There's lots of people who have meaning for it. I mean, Navalny could have gotten it. There's lots of people. It's not the only person worldwide.
JENNINGS: I'm saying If they don't give it to him for this, it would drain it of all of this meaning.
SWISHER: And if he settles the Ukraine situation, let's give him two. Let's like he can be the Susan Lucci of --
STRICKLAND: But I think what Abby is asking is does his cumulative behavior and how he conducts himself and how he values democratic norms, does that play into whether or not he would deserve a peace prize for this one specific issue in the Middle East? I think that's what you're asking, Abby. And I don't have the answer to that because I don't know what criteria the Nobel Committee uses. But I think it's legitimate concern.
And you talk about him brokering peace around the world. He's pissing off our allies. He is creating bad blood with his bad trade deals. He once said that Ukraine was the aggressor in the war. And so there have been some very egregious comments he's made on the international stage. But if we're just isolating what's happening in the Middle East, maybe it's --
PHILLIP: And, look, I mean --
JENNINGS: (INAUDIBLE), by the way. So, I mean, you know --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I do think also Trump is entitled to a degree to reshape the world order in a different way. I mean, that does actually make him consequential if he's able to do it. And if he's able to do it to the end of peace, you can't knock it if it's working. So, I think that we're at one of these moments where you have to just evaluate the results, not just the rhetoric of what is happening out there.
Coming up next, Trump once called them backers of terror, and now he's allowed Qatar to build a base on U.S. soil, and MAGA is pretty ticked off about it.
Plus, we're learning tonight that Attorney General Pam Bondi was in the dark about the Letitia James' indictment. So, who's calling the shots over at DOJ?
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:31:59]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Donald Trump is allowing Qatar, a nation he once called a funder of terrorism, to build an air base on American soil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Other than President Trump could have achieved the peace that we believe will be a lasting peace in Gaza and Qatar played a substantial role from the beginning, working with our folks to ensure that came about. Today we're announcing, or we're signing a letter of acceptance to build a Qatari Emiri Air Force facility at the Mountain Home Air Base in Idaho.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Earlier this month, Trump extended a security guarantee to Qatar after accepting a $400 million Qatari jet to serve as the new Air Force One. Now, sources say that this agreement with Qatar is somewhat routine. It's something that the Air Force has done for decades with other partner nations and it's been in the works since 2022 before Trump was president. But still, the saga is making MAGA furious.
Laura Loomer, a close ally of the President has tweeted more than a dozen times since the facility was announced. And she's calling the decision outrageous, an abomination, and a betrayal. She says she won't be voting in 2026.
There's so much going on here including that I do think that some of this is a bit of a misunderstanding. And maybe this is on Pete Hegseth because of the way that he announced it and made it sound like they were building a base from scratch. But I think MAGA is here responding to what seems like a flip flop, where Trump himself was and where he is now on Qatar.
TROVER: Well, Hegseth was out tonight on X and clarified that, you know, the U.S. will control the base and this for training purposes only. I think there was some confusion as you noted. This is one of those tough things, right? But I don't think anybody in the administration doesn't understand who Qatar is, and some of the unsavory folks that they hang around with and things that they do.
But they are also an ally to United States, and we have to work with them like we have to work with a lot of countries with whom we don't get along all of the time. And so, I think that's one of these tough things when you're in government that you've got to make these kinds of decisions. "Politico" is out with a piece tonight saying they were key to helping get this peace deal done. So, it's just something we've got to do.
SWISHER: No, these are normal things. It's just that communications was so cloddish. I mean, that's the thing. It felt like they were building a base and he just didn't communicate. I mean, he has communications problems. So, this was just yet another one of the communications problems.
And so, I think probably, if they had done it right, that we're going to do more of these things, that we've trained all kinds of people here in this country as you noted, that would have been fine. But not with Laura Loomer for sure.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, and I think that also, the timing -- the timing. It may be intentional but it was also part of the problem because he made it seem like a thank you for their role in brokering this peace deal. And let me just play with some of these MAGA, you know, right-leaning folks have been saying about this. They're not comfortable with any part of this, including the routine part of it.
[22:35:01]
Just listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERICK ERICKSON, "THE ERICK ERICKSON SHOW" HOST: I do not think the President of the United States of America should sit and fly on a plane purchased with the same money used to murder American citizens. And that's what Qatar does.
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, AUTHOR, "SECOND CLASS": This is not a gift. This is Qatar, a state sponsor of terror that has Hamas in the palm of its hand giving a bribe.
BEN SHAPIRO, "THE BEN SHAPIRO SHOW" HOST: Taking sacks of goodies from people who support Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Jazeera, all the rest. That's not America First.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, I mean, look, geopolitically, yes, they're an ally, but MAGA also believes that they are terrorists.
JENNINGS: Yeah, I mean, they've certainly done terrible things. I mean, we've acknowledged it as a country and sometimes the people you're allied with, you wish would act better and do different things.
As Lance said, though, we have, and not just President Trump, but previous administrations have decided that Qatar is an ally and they have been a real ally through this peace process. And look, we're going to have to depend upon them for security in the Middle East as this peace process unfolds.
PHILLIP: We've also handed them a security guarantee. Are you comfortable with that?
JENNINGS: Well, again --
PHILLIP: Trump, by the way, single-handedly did that, which is dubiously illegal.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Well, Joe Biden gave them a designation as an important non- NATO ally, as well. Look, you have two administrations back to back, one Democrat, one Republican, that have strategically decided it's better to be allied with Qatar because of the larger goals that we have in the Middle East.
The fact that this is a routine matter for us to train allies, the fact that they're not building a base, the fact that that was maybe not communicated properly but was cleaned up tonight, I understand people's hesitations about Qatar. The President, though, when he's making decisions like this has to take geo political implications into consideration. That's obviously what they've done here.
(CROSSTALK)
SWISHER: It will inflame the MAGA base, especially someone like Laura Loomer who has a history of this kind of thing. And it's sort of on par with Epstein. It's one of the founding pillars of these groups. And this will drive them crazy no matter what.
PHILLIP: The other part of this is the plane. He took the plane. And also, you know, Trump, as we've talked about on the show, and his family, doing a lot of business in the Middle East as he is also negotiating with them, brokering peace with them. They're making a lot of money. There's a Trump International Golf Club and villas in Qatar that is projected to cost $3 billion. This is happening all while he is sitting in the White House.
STRICKLAND: Yeah, I mean, this is Pete Hegseth, who I believe is wholly unqualified to serve as Secretary Defense, is not a good communicator. So, they could have rolled this out in a more clear way. This is a training facility that's being built. They purchased F-15s from us, and other international allies will be using this, as well.
But it looks unseemly. The gift of the plane, then making money in the Mideast. And so, I think to your point, Abby, what kinds of deals are happening behind the scenes and how is the Trump family being enriched? But as far as the complicated relationship we have with allies in the Mideast, it's real. And we just have to do what we can to protect our interests. At the same time, it just looks unseemly. The plane, the business deals, and who knows what else.
TROVER: So, you're okay with it, though, as a member of Congress.
STRICKLAND: As a member of Congress, you know, I spoke with some people on the House Armed Services Committee and you know, as complicated as this is, this is something that we do. It's pretty routine and it's a training facility that we will own and control by the way.
JENNINGS: Yes, right. It's at a base that we've operated in Singapore. Singapore has a facility.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, I do think it's pretty clear because, you're right, Pete Hegseth tried to clarify this, but he described it inaccurately in a -- in a thing that was listened to by the entire world and caused a lot of this firestorm. So, I think that's --
SWISHER: Well, it's taken the focus off the fat general's speech.
PHILLIP: I guess so. Next for us, Pam Bondi was in the dark about the DOJ's indictment of a Trump foe, Letitia James. Now remember, Bondi is the attorney general. So, what else is happening here that she is not aware of? We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:43:46]
PHILLIP: There are new questions tonight about who exactly is calling the shots over at the Justice Department. Sources tell CNN that Attorney General Pam Bondi was caught off guard when President Trump's handpicked prosecutor, Lindsey Halligan, secured the indictment for Trump's political foe, New York Attorney General Letitia James.
Now apparently, Halligan did not coordinate with the agency head before presenting the case to a grand jury. And the DOJ indicted James yesterday, three weeks after Trump publicly demanded that Bondi go after his rivals.
This is interesting. It's hard to know exactly what to make of it, Lance. But do you think that it would be a kind of basic thing to go up the chain of command at DOJ, especially when you, I mean, previously to this, the thought was politically charged indictments, indictments of sitting elected officials usually goes all the way up the chain of DOJ. This one didn't.
TROVER: Are we really that surprised that this happened? I mean, everybody has been talking all the time about how this is not a surprise that we were doing the indictments. I don't think Pam Bondi was surprised that the indictment happened.
SWISHER: I think she's asking should he have been told.
TROVER: Look, I mean that's not for me to say. I mean, if that's the standard procedure, maybe I'm not here to judge whether she should have been told or not.
[22:45:01]
But I mean -- but there's a U.S. attorney who acted on the charges she put in front of a grand jury, the grand jury indicted her. I mean, that's what happened. I find this somewhat of a distraction whether she knew or didn't know. I mean we knew that she was under investigation and that there was likely to be an indictment.
PHILLIP: It does seem a little dysfunctional.
SWISHER: Yeah. It's the same thing we were just talking about with Pete Hegseth, though. It's like cloddish communications which -- it's critical to have very sharp communications, especially on controversial issues like this or that are going to be controversial. And so, she should have known. She should have known. She's the boss.
STRICKLAND: I mean, she should have known. This is a simple chain of command, how you do things procedurally. But we know that this administration does not do things that way. And so, Pam Bondi was probably surprised by this, but you know, this is just another example of the President coming after his political enemies. It's the retribution tour, and this is just another example of it.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, the other piece of context here, of course, is Donald Trump's Truth Social post, which "The Wall Street Journal" reported on Wednesday, "On September 20th, he meant to send a private message to Pam Bondi. Trump believed he had sent Bondi the message directly, addressing it to Pam, and was surprised to learn it was public until, I guess, she called the White House to find out what on earth was going on.
But she was being cornered by her boss, the President of the United States, which seems to indicate that she was in a really shaky position internally.
JENNINGS: I don't know. I mean, look, this all just seems like palace intrigue to me. The reality is the U.S. attorney --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: It's out in the public now.
JENNINGS: -- the U.S. attorney --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I didn't put it there.
JENNINGS: - and everybody wants to rumor around about it. The U.S. attorney went to talk to a grand jury, the grand jury looked at evidence, they returned indictments. And now Letitia James will get her day in court, just like anybody else who routinely, by the way, the Justice Department routinely takes up mortgage fraud cases all over this country. And so --
SWISHER: Yes, but it's the Attorney General -- Scott, come on.
JENNINGS: But the point is, it's a case, it's got real evidence. And you know, now a court out there is going to take a look at it. So, the palace intrigue aside, it doesn't really register with me that much at all that important.
(CROSSTALK)
SWISHER: I would love them to invite me to the White House so can show them how to use these various technologies, but I mean this is just cloddish. In something like this that is so controversial and so much scrutiny, you should have it locked out. If you're going to go this route, you should absolutely have it locked out.
PHILLIP: I mean this is not quite the point, but the fact that the President is trying to send a direct message to his attorney general via Truth social is crazy. Like, why is this happening and nobody is saying to the President, hey, Mr. President, there are other ways to reach your attorney general if you want to send a message to her.
STRICKLAND: Well, I mean, come on. You don't think that he's going to be technologically advanced and know how to use social media or communicate. I mean, Pete Hegseth is sending war plans on Signal, for God's sake. So, what does this administration even know about how to use technology properly?
PHILLIP: You know, Pam Bondi, a couple of days ago was asked about Trump's role in influencing the DOJ. Let me play what she said to Senator Klobuchar.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D) MINNESOTA: How about the Truth Social Post on September 20th, 2025, in which the President said, "We can't delay any longer, Pam," using your name, "not bringing criminal charges or killing our reputation," his words, "and credibility." Do you consider that a directive to the Justice Department?
PAM BONDI, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Senator Klobuchar, President Trump is the most transparent president in American history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, it's transparency when Trump directs the DOJ to do certain things. If it were President Biden and he had sent a direct message that was made public directing his attorney general to prosecute someone, you guys would have been calling for impeachment.
TROVER: So, the issue that we just didn't see Biden do it online and they went after him and throw him in jail anyway.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, actually, I think the issue is --
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: He just didn't do it on social media.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I think the issue is that there's no evidence that it happened at all, whereas now we actually have evidence that it happened.
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: Well, it's pretty clear Letitia James made it clear what she was going to do to the President when she ran for office that she was going to go and try to bankrupt him and send him to jail, basically. The Biden -- no, it's not. The Biden Justice Department raided his home, indicted him, tried to send him to jail.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Sure, but that's a change of the subject. I mean, I'm talking about Donald Trump's involvement in the Department of Justice. Listen, Lance. The question was pretty simple. If you -- if this fact pattern were applied to a different president, if President Biden had said, hey, Attorney General Bondi, why aren't you prosecuting my political enemy? You all would have said, impeach the man. Would you not have said that?
TROVER: No, no, I don't think so at all. This administration is --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, you would have been cool with it. Well, I think they've been very clear of the role that they have and what they expect out of their Justice Department.
PHILLIP: Which is that the Justice Department does what the President wants --
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: Well, no, because the American people made it pretty clear last November. No one walked into a voting booth last November and said, oh, geez, I didn't know Donald Trump had been -- they all knew it. They thought there was a two-tiered justice system the same way millions of other people did.
PHILLIP: So, in other words, doubling down on a two-tiered justice system is what Trump ran on. I mean, because I remember -- hold on. I remember asking, I mean, I was --
[22:50:00]
PHILLIP: I asked Senator Tim Scott when he was on this show last year, you know, is Trump just going to go after his political enemies? And he said, absolutely not. Trump has not ever said he was going to go after his political enemies. And now I'm being told that this is what he campaigned on all along and that the American people affirmatively voted for him to prosecute people based on his enemies list?
JENNINGS: Well, why aren't we just asking the basic question, is she guilty? I mean, there's evidence. There's charges. The evidence actually looks like there might be something here. I mean, is that not important to anyone? We're talking about all the political back and forth. What if she's guilty?
PHILLIP: I mean --
JENNINGS: The New York attorney general committing mortgage fraud, making false statements, isn't that a big deal to anyone -- whether she opposes Trump or not.
PHILLIP: Listen, hey, it's a fair point, but it would be more fair if you had actually applied that logic when -- when there were several separate cases, including, by the way, on an issue that your former boss, Mitch McConnell, said the justice system needed to handle, which was January 6th. When Trump was being investigated for that, it was called a witch hunt.
When Mitch McConnell said the solution to holding Trump accountable for January 6th is the criminal justice system. So, at that time, Republicans were saying that's all just a witch hunt. They weren't interested in whether or not he was guilty.
JENNINGS: Well, the justice system did engage in January the 6th. They indicted and convicted hundreds and hundreds of people.
PHILLIP: Yes, and you all called it a witch hunt. Did you not?
JENNINGS: I did not. I did not do anything of the sort.
PHILLIP: Okay, all right.
JENNINGS: I think anybody who engages in violence ought to be held accountable.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, I'm glad -- I'm glad that we agree that it was not a witch hunt.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Yeah, but I think what you're saying --
PHILLIP: We got to go. But coming up next, don't miss what Chef Liza has been busy whipping up for us after this conversation. And perhaps, we'll have some nightcaps, too. Don't go anywhere. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
PHILLIP: For once, I am on this side of the Food Network Test Kitchen in station one ahead of the CNN original series, "Tony Shalhoub Breaking Bread" with Tony Shalhoub himself and also Chef Camari Mick. And we are about to prepare our sourdough loaf. Camari, tell us what we have done. Professional.
CAMARI MICK, EXECUTIVE PASTRY CHEF: Thank you. So, this is our sourdough that we made with our starter. And we're going to make like almost like a triangle.
PHILLIP: Right.
MICK: We're going to start slow and pull over. We're just going to drag it ever so slightly. Can you help me out, Tony? So we can build that surface tension. So when we score it, we're going to break that surface tension. So when we have that oven spring, it's going to shoot out and create beautiful craters in the dough.
PHILLIP: What is it called? An ear?
MICK: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Great. So Tony, when you were traveling, what did you notice about the similarities when we talk about bread and all these different cultures. TONY SHALHOUB, "TONY SHALHOUB, BREAKING BREAD" HOST: The most common
thing is that the people that do it, they're always in pursuit of that perfect loaf, that perfect thing, that new variation. It's like a lifelong devotion for them. That was the most impressive and the most common aspect of it all that I noticed.
MICK: So, we're going to let this proof until it's about double in size.
PHILLIP: So this little lady, now she's ready to bake. So what are we doing?
MICK: She is ready to bake. So we're seam side up right now. So this is going to be our bottom.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
MICK: We're going to flip this over and pull out our dough. You always want to create one big score to have that beautiful ear that we were talking about.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
MICK: And then everything else is going to be decorative.
PHILLIP: Tony, you also bake a loaf of bread in Iceland.
SHALHOUB: Yeah, that was the most unusual thing. We put sort of like a cake-like dough into a milk. carton if you can imagine that, climbed a volcano, put it in the ground and it was baked overnight by the residual heat that remains in this active volcano.
PHILLIP: Wow.
SHALHOUB: It was really amazing.
PHILLIP: I was going to say, what does it even taste like?
SHALHOUB: Baked in a volcano.
PHILLIP: How long does the sourdough take in an oven in a non-volcano situation?
MICK: It's going to bake for about 35 minutes to 45 minutes.
PHILLIP: And then do you take off the lid at a certain point or do you leave it on the whole time?
MICK: Yes, we should take it off about halfway through. Let it brown and get some great color. And then we're going to have some beautiful slices of bread. Look at this gorgeous loaf.
PHILLIP: So, that's the ear you were talking about.
MICK: Yes. SHALHOUB: Yeah, gorgeous.
MICK: Tony, can you do the honors?
SHALHOUB: Sure.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
SHALHOUB: The sound of cutting and then the sound of the chewing.
PHILLIP: It smells good.
SHALHOUB: Now a little butter perhaps?
MICK: I like to eat the inside first.
PHILLIP: Me too, yeah. It's pretty perfect.
MICK: Thank you. It's not too sour. Its crust is just lovely. And then the butter. I think butter just makes it all better.
PHILLIP: Well, thank you guys. We did it.
MICK: Thank you. Who's taking this loaf home?
PHILLIP: Me. I'm taking it.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PHILLIP: You know I love some sourdough bread. Okay, catch more of Tony and Chef Camari Mick on the brand new CNN original series "Tony Shalhoub, Breaking Bread" premiering this Sunday at 9 P.M. on CNN. But before we go, you know we have Chef Liza Zeneski here and she's a supervising culinary producer at the Food Network. She's going to tell us all about what we've been digging into while you've been watching that on TV.
[23:00:02]
Chef, what have we got here?
LIZA ZENESKI, SUPERVISING CULINARY PRODUCER, FOOD NETWORK: So tonight, we're going Old Things Pumpkin and Old Things Fall. So, these are our cheese tortellini with a pumpkin Alfredo sauce. A little bit sweet, creamy, velvety. Some fried sage on top. Like a hug in the bowl, I hope.
PHILLIP: It's delicious. It is so good. If you're skeptical of pumpkins, which some people are, I don't think it's --
SWISHER: Who is skeptical of pumpkins?
PHILLIP: Some people are skeptical of pumpkins, okay?
SWISHER: No one is.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: It's like -- not like heavily pumpkin-y. I highly recommend it. All right, thank you guys so much for watching "NewsNight". And I catch our roundtable show, "Table For Five", tomorrow morning at 10 A.M. Eastern, right here on CNN. Laura Coates is right now.
