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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
AOC And Sanders Talk About Shutdown In A Town Hall. Vance Dismisses Vile Texts by Republicans; GOP Calls Upcoming "No Kings" Rally a "Hate America" Event; Mamdani Goes on Fox to Speak Directly to Trump; More Airports Refuse to Show Noem Video Blaming Democrats. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired October 15, 2025 - 22:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:30:00]
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): That is when we are actually stoking division in our country. When we call those who disagree with us un-American. That is what is un-American. And I could not advocate more for the fact of sticking to the facts about things, respecting and honoring the intentions and motives of our fellow Americans. And also, trying to elevate and find the areas that we do have common ground and agreement.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I) VERMONT: I think Alexandria said it very well. I mean, I would just add as an example, this Saturday, millions of people are going to come out on a no-kings day. Maybe more people coming out than any time in American history. Speaker Johnson said this is a "hate America" rally because people are coming out expressing their concerns about massive cuts to healthcare and the movement toward authoritarianism.
I don't hate Americans. I love Americans. But the point is, instead of attacking each other in that way, in my view, what we got to do is lay the issues out on the table. We've got a healthcare crisis, do we not friends? All right, we're the only country not to guarantee healthcare to all. How do we move to a healthcare system that guarantees healthcare to human rights? Make sense to you?
All right. Seventy, 80 years ago in this country, if you went to a public college or university, you know what your tuition was? Zero. And yet you got all of this increased worker productivity, all of the technology. People can't afford to send their kids to college. They can't afford childcare. People are paying outrageous cost in housing.
How do we build the millions of units of affordable low-income housing that we desperately need? How do we save the planet for our kids and transform our energy system away from fossil fuel? Do you know that millions of senior citizens in this country are trying to get by on $15,000 a year or less? They helped build this country. They fought for our country. They're in nursing homes, which are horrible places right now because they're underfunded, understaffed.
We are the richest country in the history of world. How do we provide a good quality life for our kids? Should we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major nation? Highest rate of senior poverty. Those are the issues. You disagree with me? Fine. You got a better idea than mine? Great. Let's go forward. Let's discuss those issues.
Let's not attack each other personally. That we're un-American, that we hate America, that's nonsense. That just divides us. Let's come together. Let's discuss the real issues. Let us create the kind of extraordinary country that we know we can create.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: On that note, Senator Sanders, Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, thank you both for being here tonight. Thank you to our audience and for your excellent questions. We really appreciate them tonight. Thank you all for joining in. "NewsNight" with Abby Phillips starts now.
(APPLAUSE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone, I'm Abby Phillip in New York with a special edition of "NewsNight". Joining the table tonight, Jennifer Welch and Brad Todd, they are here also with us. Congressman Dan Crenshaw, Ashley Allison and Ana Navarro, let's jump right into the reaction to what we heard tonight at CNN's Town Hall. The overriding message, Congressman, from AOC and Senator Sanders was that Republicans need to come to the negotiating table because healthcare is such an important issue.
REP. DAN CRENSHAW (R) TEXAS: Yeah, was quite the lesson in gaslighting. I mean, I'm impressed. And we've got to take notes. If you ever want to be a professional gaslighter, take notes from these folks. And then she called it "Mike Johnson's shut down". I think she's forgetting she voted to shut the government down. She voted against a clean C.R.
There was no strings attached to that C.R. In fact, lot of things, speaking of health care, which they should like, extending the benefits to disproportionate share hospitals, that's low-income hospitals, extending telehealth, as well. There was a lot of things they should like. They voted for very similar C.Rs multiple times. So, making it sound like it's Mike Johnson's or Republican shutdown is such an enormous lie. It's gaslighting to the absurdity, level of extreme absurdity. So, I mean --
PHILLIP: Are you surprised that there has not been more, I mean, given what you're saying, I mean, the Republicans probably should be in a position to feel really confident in this moment, but there has not been a whole lot of backlash against Democrats. And in fact, polling suggests that Americans actually want Congress to address this health care subsidy issue. Are you surprised by that?
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: Well, if you just ask Americans -- if you ask Americans if we should address a health care issue, I think most Americans would say, yes, address the issue, but there's a way to address issues. You don't just hold all of the government hostage in order to do so. And I can quote plenty of Democrats. mean, Bernie Sanders himself, right, has said that.
You don't hold the government hostage over a policy issue. We have like 20 examples of this. So, how hypocritical can you be?
[22:35:00]
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, but look.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: There is a way --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Trust me, the shoe is on the other foot in this massive --
(CROSSTALK)
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: AOC's very first speech --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- because Republicans used to be on the other side of these issues.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: Her speech to Congress when she was elected, she said, it's not normal to shut down government when we don't get what you want. That's her very first speech. That's exactly what Democrats have done. There's a clean continuing resolution passed by the House against AOC's wishes. That's what they've always said is supposed to happen when we reach this point.
And now they're trying to bring in an entirely different issue which can be negotiated after. And by the way, the healthcare premiums she's talking about are expiring, that Bernie Sanders, she talked about tonight. Democrats made them expire.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
TODD: Democrats voted to make them expire when they controlled everything. This is their mess. They made it. And they're shutting the government down to demand someone else fix it.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: The whole point of a temporary C.R. is to negotiate during it.
(CROSSTALK)
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What if I -- what if I concede -- what if I concede that, okay, maybe Democrats should negotiate. Should Republicans? Because I don't feel like they are.
TODD: Well, you -- they've always -- Democrats have always said we should -- we should not hold the government hostage to those negotiations.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: But don't you -- but you all are in power.
TODD: So let's re -- let's open the government.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: But you don't have enough votes to pass it. So, you have to --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: No. We have enough votes to pass it. We can't stop your filibuster right now because you're shutting --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: So, you don't have enough votes?
TODD: No, because you're using the filibuster to shut down the government.
ALLISON: Well, you don't have enough votes. You don't have 60, so, that's a symbol. Like filibuster, whatever reason why you can't pass it, filibuster or not, you don't have 60 votes.
TODD: So how about we open the government then talk?
ALLISON: So then, so then, but you have to negotiate. And so I hear you.
TODD: Right. Open the --
ALLISON: I hear you.
TODD: Hold the government hostage? So hold --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: But can I just say back to you?
TODD: Yeah.
ALLISON: You're holding the government hostage because Republicans won't. You -- people are both stuck in the sand. And at the end of the day, when -- at the end of the day, let me finish my statement. At the end of the day, when Republicans are in power -- fact, you have to negotiate because you don't have 60 votes -- fact.
And Americans want their health care and they don't want these subsidies to expire. Fact, fact. So, let's be adults and maybe both negotiate. But right now, you all are saying Democrats are being hostage takers when reality, so are the Republicans. You're both acting the same way.
(CROSSTALK)
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I think the person -- the guy -- let me, let me get in on this. I think the guy who spoke last, who made the -- who asked the last question, the guy that was channeling Johnny Cash in the audience, I think he articulated what you just said. And I think what most Americans want, I think, when Americans hear Republicans blaming Democrats, Democrats blaming Republicans, it's like that Charlie Brown teacher, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, because the bottom line is we're in today, what, 15 of a government shutdown with no end in sight.
There are government workers in Washington, D.C. having to make lines to go eat for free at Jose Andres's restaurants because they can't pay the bills and they can't afford groceries. That is shameful in this country. And what we got a call for is a damn compromise and for you all to actually get back to work and sit down with each other and hammer something down. My God, Hamas and Israel could sit down and come up with a compromise, Republicans and Democrats --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, you know what's interesting about what you're saying, I mean, the American people are also probably noticing that when Republicans were in power, they were fine with hostage-taking and when Democrats were arguing for clean C.Rs. Now, it's the exact opposite. So, I'm not sure you can throw Democrats' words in their faces without also throwing Republicans own actions in their faces in this particular moment?
(CROSSTALK)
JENNIFER WELCH, "I'VE HAD IT" PODCAST HOST: We're now talking about so many things right now. Number one, Mike Johnson is protecting the Epstein files. They do not want to swear on that Congresswoman because they do not want this to leak, because there are fissures all over the MAGA movement.
Secondly, Trump and his administration of sycophants have leaked everywhere. They want it to stay shut down. He's shutting down all of these different agencies. He is firing federal workers left and right. This is the dream of Project 2025. There are nefarious intentions under this.
Every Republican and Democrat should be in D.C. right now working. Most of all, Moses Mike Johnson, who is this big Christian, if he's a big Christian, he should be teeing up, fighting for healthcare, fighting for the marginalized, fighting for the poor, but instead he weaponizes his faith to lure voters in and then dicks them over every chance he can get. And that's what we're so sick of.
(CROSSTALK) CRENSHAW: We're talking about fighting for healthcare. Can we say a things about Republicans fighting for healthcare real quick? I have some things that we should talk about.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Got a binder full of something.
CRENSHAW: How about the lower cost, more transparency act? So, we passed out a bipartisan bill, passed in 2023. Over 300 votes for that out of the House. Bernie Sanders was the chairman of the Health Committee in the Senate. Democrats held the Senate. He refused to bring it to the floor. That was a bipartisan bill.
The first step to lowering any health care costs, if you guys want to really get deep on health care costs, you have to have price transparency. You have to know how much things cost. That bill was a massive win. It came out of my Committee. We passed it out of the House in a bipartisan fashion. Why didn't anyone ask Bernie Sanders that question? Why would he refuse --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: We could have. I'm not opposing that.
(CROSSTALK)
WELCH: I'm happy to hear about this.
CRENSHAW: Why would he refuse to bring that to the Committee? I'm not done. I'm not done. I'm not done here. Talk about cost, share and reductions. I got another thing
[22:40:00]
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But hold on, hold on one second. Let me just say, because I want to keep the conversation -- I want to -- hold on. I understand that you do. But listen, I want to speak to that because I did -- do think we heard today from AOC, she was also talking about how she was working with Republicans on reforming PBMs, these sort of middlemen in healthcare --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: She's not working on anything. We've got that bill -- we've got that bill out there forever. I support it. We all support it. It is bipartisan.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, she said it was bipartisan and she said it wasn't -- it wasn't brought to court. It was killed, she said, by Elon Musk and by Donald Trump siding with Elon Musk.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: Yeah, because we tried to put that in the C.R.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, there's a whole slew of healthcare things that are going nowhere because both parties will come to the table on it.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: I want to say something. That was PBM reform.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
CRENSHAW: We're all supportive of that too. We're going get that through. Why did Bernie Sanders stop this one though? Because this was conspiracy in hospitals.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: So, why didn't you all go back to Washington and make that part of the negotiation?
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: This was back in insurance. This was part of all of it.
(CROSSTALK)
WELCH: Yeah, why didn't you guys sit down with Bernie, talk it out?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I guess this is an opportunity, though, Congressman --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: We weren't going to flake.
CRENSHAW: Thirty-five dollar insulin cap. That came from Donald Trump.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. Woah. Hold on. Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Congressman, I don't think you can talk about -- I don't think you can talk about reducing --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: You keep interrupting me because you don't want hear what Republicans have done to decrease --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I'm sorry. I'm interrupting you because you want to read a list on a television show that's a conversation show. That is why I'm interrupting. I'm sorry. But I want to ask you a question, okay? The question is, why not take all of these issues and sit down and address them, address the subsidies, address the list of things you've got there.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And also, by the way -- but Congressman, now you're interrupting me. Now, you're interrupting me.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: November is right around the corner. We keep hearing that this doesn't really go into effect until then. November is right around the corner. Isn't now though the time to address this issue and maybe to take some of those things that you're talking about, put it in a package and work on it together? I mean, I'm asking you because you're actually in a position to do something about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: I'm just impressed by you all's ability to twist these things around.
ALLISON: Nobody is twisting.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Nobody is twisting.
(CROSSTALK)
ALISON: We are literally saying ask Bernie Sanders the question.
TODD: Hold on. The healthcare subsidies that Democrats want --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: He was asked that question a billion times.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I asked him a question. I want to give him a chance to answer.
CRENSHAW: Every Republican leader to include the president said, of course we should talk about this. This is a complex policy issue.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
CRENSHAW: And we could dive into a way deeper. I think everybody here is qualified to even dive into, But these credits --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Including you?
(CROSSTALK)
CREANSHAW: No, not including me actually.
ALLISON: Of course not.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: Because they work on it. I'm going to subcommittee.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right guys, let's let him finish.
CRENSHAW: So, you want it -- but we can talk later if you want to get smarter on it now.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: He just said bless her heart to a member of -- so I'm saying bless your heart since you're the expert on it.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, go ahead.
CRENSHAW: That's fine.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: No, you said bless her heart to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who was your colleague and a member of your Committee.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: I'm not offended by it.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I was asking why not work on legislation that addresses these healthcare issues? I mean, part of the issue is that this is a vulnerability for Republicans and then they don't seem to be willing to do --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- about it.
CRENSHAW: We do. In the House, we passed this out. We passed this out at the House. In our Big, Beautiful Bill, the working class tax cut, cost, share and reductions. What is that, too? It reduced the cost shares so your deductibles on silver plans. It actually saves the taxpayer money on top of that and reduces premiums. It's a wildly good policy.
And for some reason, the Democrats like requested it to be out of order and got birded out of the final bill. Thirty five dollar insulin caps and a buy my ticket like credit for that that came from Trump. The hospital insurance.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: That's gaslighting.
(CROSSTALK)
WELCH: Dead serious. Dead serious.
CRENSHAW: This can be fact-checked really easily. It's happened in 2020 under Trump, all right?
ALLISON: Gaslighting.
CRENSHAW: It's not gaslighting. It's easy.
TODD: But Biden did it and did it a different way. But he wants to --
PHILLIP: All right.
TODD: Let's go back to what health care thinks they're talking about, Abby. They were talking about enhanced premium subsidies. They were passed as a temporary measure in the pandemic. American Rescue Plan of 2021, Joe Biden extended them and the Democrats temporarily.
PHILLIP: Yes.
TODD: Then in 2023, 2022, they extended them again, temporarily.
PHILLIP: Okay.
TODD: They're direct payments to insurers. There's this corporate welfare because United Health --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, now you're concerned about corporate welfare?
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: United Healthcare has a $14 billion problem --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You are now concerned about --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: I'm just taking back cues from Democrats.
(CROSSTALK) TODD: I'm just taking back cues from Democrats. They say that health insurance -- those shouldn't have these exorbitant profits except --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Listen, Brad, I would be more -- I think I would be more sympathetic to this argument that they're temporary, let them expire if Republicans had not just run on making permanent a bill to lower taxes that you all as Republicans made expire. You made them temporary. You legislated temporary tax cuts.
And then you argued to the American people that by letting them expire, it would be a tax increase. I don't understand how that is different. I don't understand how that is different from health insurance subsidies that were intended to be temporary, that now once they expire will be a cost increase to Americans.
[22:45:08]
I'm not arguing one way or another about what should happen, but I'm just saying from a baseline perspective, those two sets of things are basically the same.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: You know -- you say you don't know why they happen. You know why they happen.
PHILLIP: I didn't say I know why they happen. I'm asking you why you're making the argument that subsidies deserve to go away, but tax cuts for wealthy people don't deserve to go away.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: I didn't say they deserve to go away. I just said --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: How do you make that argument to the American people?
TODD: -- that Democrats made the -- I said Democrats made the decision to make these subsidies temporary.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Just as Republicans made a decision to make the tax cuts temporary.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: Yes. You know why they made it temporary? Because they were more concerned about the tax breaks they had in their bill for electric vehicles.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: I can help answer this, too.
TODD: That's what they were more concerned about preserving permanently. So they made these temporary. And they thought when the time comes, we'll be able hold the government hostage to extend them. No one will be against it. We'll just say --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I have a real question. How does this end? How does it end at the end of the day? At the end of the day, you seem stuck where you are. I'm -- I don't have a vote so I'm like, you know, I want the government to open. I want people to keep their health insurance. I want people to be able to afford their groceries and their rent and live a life where they feel stability by working one job in this country. How does this end? Because we're 15 days in and everybody is stuck in the mud and people are losing wages. We aren't sure --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: Well, a senior Democratic aide said it will only end when planes fall out of the sky. CNN reported that.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: But literally -- but literally, do you think the American people --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: That's the people voting against it. Ask the people voting to keep the government shut down.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: But Congressmen --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, here's -- Ashley, but Ashley, here's the other side of the coin.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: The point is you need a negotiation.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I still don't -- I mean, I have the same question that you do. And I think that that's why we're stuck. Because Republicans say they're not going to budge. Democrats also say that they're not going to budge. Somebody is going to have to budge. Otherwise, we are not going to --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: The problem is that Republican and Democratic leadership and Congress people, instead of being in a room in Washington and trying to work this out are on TV being demagogues. And you know, none of us, you know, flaring tempers here and gaslighting or not gaslighting --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: You guys just a town hall, the two of them have voted to keep the government shut down multiple times.
(CROSSTALK)
WELCH: The buck stops --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: You know what, I'd like to see a town hall with Schumer and Thune and Johnson and Jeffries. That's the town hall I want --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Are they actually talking about this? Are they sitting down and having bipartisan meetings?
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: Why is that different now?
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me -- let me play what -- you referenced this, Jennifer. This is Russ Vought talking about what's going to happen while the government is shut down. This is part of the picture, too. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSS VOUGHT, OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET DIRECTOR: We're definitely talking thousands of people. We want to be very aggressive where we can be in shuttering the bureaucracy, not just the funding, but the bureaucracy that we now have an opportunity to do that. And that's where we're going to be looking for our opportunities. I think we'll probably end up being north of 10,000.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I actually am curious. I mean, do you think, Congressman, that that is the right message for him to be giving at this moment that you're arguing the government should be reopened, that this is not something that the Republicans are celebrating?
CRENSHAW: Yeah, I mean, two things can be true. One is you want the government reopened but you also want it to be streamlined. There's a lot of a duplicate of roles in government. I've worked in federal government both in military. And in my role now -- yeah, there's probably a lot of spaces where you could streamline it more and save the taxpayers some money. That is not a crazy thought.
PHILLIP: He does sound particularly eager to use this moment as an opportunity. I mean, That's basically how he describes it. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: I'm not sure. They were doing it before the shutdown.
PHILLIP: Yeah, they were. But he's talking about doing it aggressively right now. It sounds like that message is really cross- purposes --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: It's what the president ran on.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: It's what the president ran on. And I want to address again real quick why two -- why two things -- why these two things are different, why is it hypocritical for Democrats to talk about this and --because we're conceptually we're talking apples and oranges. So, the question we were trying to answer earlier.
PHILLIP: You're talking about the expiration of subsidies.
CRENSHAW: Right, the expiration. When you're talking about the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, you're talking about a very broad-based policy, right? This is meant, this is always designed to be a pro- growth economic policy. When you're talking about these particular subsidies, you're talking about an emergency subsidy.
The Democrats felt they needed an emergency subsidy because you were in the midst of COVID. And there was a lot of unemployment. So, that was the idea behind it, and that's why it's temporary. So conceptually, these two things are very, very different.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Last time, there was a lot of unemployment right now.
PHILLIP: I think that the number of people that it affects, perhaps, is different.
[22:50:02]
But I think you could also argue that the vast majority of tax cuts in the first Trump administration predominantly benefited wealthy people, which is a relatively small group.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: Everyone's taxes were cut.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And then, on top of that --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me -- let me also make this point. I mean, we've showed this graphic before. We don't have it today, but we've showed it before. That in that time, in the time between when these subsidies have gone into place, the majority of the growth in people who are on Obamacare-based plans has happened in red states, in southern states.
These are Republican constituents. These are people who live in Texas. They live in Alabama. They live in Georgia. And for that reason, it affects a lot of people, millions of people. That is why we are seeing the polling where it is. So, you may argue on a technicality that is not as broad-based but clearly, people are feeling the pain and they are making their voices heard that they want it to be addressed.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And Republicans seem to know that they will have to address. You know that they will have to address it, right?
CRENSHAW: Look, premiums are expected to rise for a lot of reasons, mostly because the ACA is designed in a way that forces them to rise. When you subsidize the insurance company instead of the patient, you give them a massive incentive and put a bunch of regulations on them. You give them a massive incentive to continue raising premiums.
We don't give money to a grocery store and say, hey, subsidize the food for poor people. That would be a really weird way to do it. We give people a voucher. We give people a voucher for housing. We don't give money to an apartment developer. So, only in healthcare do we do it this very strange way. And who does it enrich the insurance companies? That's what you're going to keep going. It's a bad system, okay?
So, and second, the CBO has scored that only eight percent of any premium increase would be due to these expiration of these subsidies. So people can be put at ease. That's about 60 to 80 bucks per month.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, are you suggesting that -- well, let me ask you, I mean, are you saying that --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: I'm just saying like put it in perspective.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Are you saying that at the end of the day, Republicans won't do anything about this? Hold on, Ashley.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Tell somebody who is $80 short for their rent that is not -- (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me just ask -- hold on a second, Brad. Let me ask you a very important question.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Do you think Republicans are going to just let these expire and not going to do anything about it?
CRENSHAW: I think there's room to negotiate. Other Republican leader has said that. So that's when the government is shut down.
PHILLIP: So that's a no. So you guys are going to --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: Let me just give you our politics real quick. We voted for a very, a great, short temporary C.R. A C.R. by the way that has kept basically the same budget that we've had for years. That includes Biden's budget, Democrats budget. You think we like that?
PHILLIP: Well, listen.
CRENSHAW: We would like to negotiate.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: You also voted for a bill this summer that cuts Medicaid and will --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. I want to stay on this for a second.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I want stay on this second because i think it's super important. It sounds like what you're saying is that at the end of the day, you guys are going to come to the table and fix this. Are you not?
CRENSHAW: They need to open up the government. It's easy. It's easy. So, let's open up the government.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, are you going to address this issue or not? Are you going to address this issue or not or do you think it's likely that Republicans will address this issue?
CRENSHAW: I don't think it's a crazy issue to address and it should be addressed thoughtfully and carefully.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: So, in other words, I mean, this is kind of interesting because in other words, what you're saying is that-- what you're saying is that you guys are --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: I'm just going to take you back time to 2013 when the first shutdown, the long shutdown with John Boehner happened, Democrats said, you can't renegotiate Obamacare. You can't keep the government shut down to renegotiate Obamacare. We must keep the government open and then we'll talk about Obamacare.
Okay, we learned that lesson. Now we're back again. Democrats are in the other position. They want to shut the government down to renegotiate part of Obamacare. No, we're not going to do it. They told us what the rules are. You always keep the government open, then you negotiate afterward. That's the rules. They made them. Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer made them. Chuck Schumer's voted to keep the government open 30 times -- 30 times. He can do it again.
NAVARRO: Can I ask you though, the enrollment period for ACA begins in two weeks. What are Americans thinking? They need to know what their premiums are going to be long term. They need to know what level of coverage of any they can afford. So when you say the American people should be at ease, if I was one of those --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Well, if I was -- everybody. So should the federal workers.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: Because Democrats refuse to open the government.
NAVARRO: No. So, because you all refuse to negotiate.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I just want to say --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: I agree two things can be true at the same time. I also know that just because you say something over and over doesn't mean it's right. You guys are going to have to compromise. And if you don't, then people aren't going to be able to pay their mortgage.
[22:55:00]
People are not going to be at ease when they try to go and enroll. And I don't know what the political backlash is. But at end of the day, it is the American people that will be frustrated. And what I heard, I'm not like, I've never worked for Bernie Sanders. I never worked for AOC. Like I am an independent arbiter on this.
If people in my party do things wrong, I will call them out for the -- in a heartbeat, okay? But what I'm saying is that like Americans will get frustrated at some point and actually potentially turn their backs on Democrats, but also Republicans.
NAVARRO: Americans are frustrated. Listen, Marjorie Taylor Greene --
ALLISON: Exactly.
NAVARRO: -- the other day, that she is tracking in her office, the phone calls that are coming in, 60 percent of the people in her very red district want the health care subsidies. So, she's going to respond to her constituents. So you know what? I mean, I think it's up to the American people. It's not up to us around this table arguing and know, spouting talking points and lists.
If the American people want their congress people to get back to Washington and compromise, call their offices and drive them crazy.
PHILLIP: All right.
CRENSHAW: I think a lot people have been misled into what the subsidies actually mean and what they'll actually --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We do have much more ahead. We have more reaction to this town hall. Plus, J.D. Vance tonight is defending the Republicans involved in those racist text chains involving hundreds of slurs and fantasizing about slavery and rape. Another special guest is going to be with us at the table. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Welcome back. The vice president is doubling down on his defense of the Young Republicans involved in elite chat that used hundreds of slurs and joked about slavery, gas chambers, and rape. On social media, J.D. Vance says that he refused to join the pearl clutching and play whataboutism with Democrats. But after a night to sleep on it, this is how he described the Republican operatives, at least one of whom is an actual elected official.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Grow up. I'm sorry. Focus on the real issues. Don't focus what -- on what kids say in group chats. The reality is that kids do stupid things, especially young boys. They tell edgy, offensive jokes. Like that's what kids do. And I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive stupid joke, is cause to ruin their lives. And at some point, we're all going to have to say enough of this B.S.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, keep in mind, the text has referred to Black people as monkeys and watermelon people. They fantasized about raping enemies and driving them to suicide. They supported slavery and sending political opponents to gas chambers to -- quote -- "watch people burn now."
Now, here is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez at CNN's town hall tonight talking about Republicans and the influence that they have on social media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): They have been successful because they have also been very clear, especially digitally, about what they believe. That women are inferior. That do not -- and they do not deserve equal rights. That they believe that LGBTQ Americans are subhuman. That they believe and are circulating disgusting racial and -- and white supremacist messaging that they are able to get away with digital -- digitally and online.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at the table is Kmele Foster. He's the editor-at- large at Tangle. Kmele, what do you make of what she said there and how it relates to this conversation about the liberty and the freedom with which these, uh, guys thought that they could spew this kind of stuff without any kind of consequences?
KMELE FOSTER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, TANGLE: Yeah, um, well, thank you for having me, Abby, first and foremost. Um, I've -- I have a lot of issues with the conversation around this particular story. Um, I would tend to agree the comments in the thread ought to be condemned universally. But this is like kind of what you would expect, this kind of idiot, larping (ph), edgelord nonsense inside of a private group chat.
You -- I think the words you used a moment ago, that they think they can say this sort of thing risk-free, consequence-free, well, let me say it in private. And I'm sure they were saying different things in public. Do they mean these things authentically? In some cases, they almost certainly do. There has been a resurgence of white nationalist sentiment in this country.
I think it's interesting, though, to try to trace this back and to think honestly about how we got to here. And I do think that a lot of the renewed interest in race and identity things for both noble purposes and otherwise have actually helped to create the circumstances that we see now.
That is not erasing any of the responsibility that people have for embracing and endorsing these kinds of sentiments. Even in private group chats where they're doing this kind of idiotic locker room talk, they deserve to face consequences.
But I do think that J.D. Vance's comments about this are worth like actually focusing in on for a moment. This has shades of that whole eating the cats, eating the dogs nonsense from during the campaign cycle.
PHILLIP: I think he would --
FOSTER: He's --
PHILLIP: -- know all about that.
FOSTER: He is a capable spokesperson for this administration. And I mean that as both a compliment and a dig in the sense that he seems willing to go out and defend just about anything. It's weird, the places where they decide to draw the lines. I'm not sure why they decide to draw it here.
PHILLIP: I know -- I know why.
FOSTER: I do think the hypocrisy he's underscoring, though, is real as well.
PHILLIP: I mean, I know why because I've seen the places where these comments have been defended. And I think J.D. Vance is looking down the line at 2028, and he's looking at -- who he's calling kids right now are going to be the Republican operatives and the sort of the future of the Republican Party. And I think he's -- he's lining himself up.
But I -- I -- you -- you make an important point. I -- the comments in the group chat are terrible and stupid. But I find it way more interesting that J.D. Vance has chosen to defend it than these guys that nobody knows or cares about. Why did he choose that this -- this is suddenly the sort of thing that he chucks up to, a youthful indiscretion, when some of the people in this chat were like a year or two younger than him? He's 41.
REP. DAN CRENSHAW (R-TX): Hard to say. I have to ask him. I'll tell you, he did not defend it. I mean, the head of Young Republicans.
PHILLIP: Right.
[23:05:00]
CRENSHAW: They exiled these folks right away.
PHILLIP: Right.
CRENSHAW: We took swift action, and I appreciate that accountability. I'm not going to defend it. I didn't even read some of these tweets. But I've heard they're bad and I believe it.
UNKNOWN: Uh-hmm.
CRENSHAW: I bet a lot of these guys are the same people who trolled me online for the most part. So, I guarantee it's a lot of the same folks. Um, on the other hand, why are you seeing some Republicans shrug their shoulders? I mean, I'll tell you why. Here's what they would -- maybe -- here's their sentiment. We just saw Charlie Kirk gets shot in the neck. You know, we watched our president while he was campaigning almost get killed. A bullet was by his head. So, there's real violence, and then there's this disgusting, despicable stuff that is said in private. And like it is disgusting, despicable. You're not going to see me trying to defend it. Um, but I do -- I'll give you that perspective from some people who might feel that way.
PHILLIP: Ashley?
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, PUBLISHER AT THE ROOT: Look, I think what happened to Charlie Kirk was awful. I said it. I think an assassination -- assassination, to tip on anybody, including the then candidate Trump and now president, it's awful.
I also think that there's a different conversation, right? So, I don't take any comfort that this is done in private because if you say the N-word in private, you think it in public. And that means that at some point in my life, I may be sitting across somebody who thinks I'm the N-word. And so that person may be the person who has to give me a job one day or as a police officer that pulls me over one day despite being articulate or a -- he knows --
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: -- to call that.
CRENSHAW: Is that -- is that an inside joke?
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: It's between me and the brother (ph).
PHILLIP: You got to -- you got to watch the show to know what she's talking about.
ALLISON: You got to watch. Watch "Table for Five." Last time, we were on together. But that's what I mean. And that was what -- it's -- it -- it manifests. It means that that could be somebody's teacher one day or it means that could be somebody's congressperson one day.
And what am I supposed to think as a Black American, as a person who could be called the N-word if we -- and I think it's great that the Young Republicans push folks out. And I also think it's important on the left when we say or -- not we because I don't do that, but when people say terrible things that those things be condemned. And that's what I was saying earlier is like we got to call balls and strikes.
FOSTER: Yeah.
ALLISON: But there's something bigger than it's just being private. These people live their lives publicly every day. And if you walk through your life and you don't know somebody thinks you're a watermelon person or that you should be raped to the point of suicide, what are we -- what are we doing?
FOSTER: Well, there are people saying things like this in public and some of these people are conservative adjacent or they would perhaps just describe themselves as conservatives like Nick Fuentes. And Nick Fuentes is a guy who has been on a number of prominent podcasts in recent weeks, who just today announced that he's got some major announcement and will be sitting down with some other conservative figure Conservatives have to know that this is taking place in the ether right now --
CRENSHAW: And I'm like --
FOSTER: -- and speaking out about this.
CRENSHAW: I'm like on the front lines of that battle. I think you probably know.
FOSTER: No, no. Congressman, I know you are not directing this in particular. I'm just saying that we should be speaking out.
PHILLIP: And wouldn't you say -- I mean, would you say -- I mean, I -- I have often argued that, you know, this is not about canceling people but just creating the boundaries of your movement. I mean --
CRENSHAW: Totally --
PHILLIP: -- if you say that Republicans need to establish --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Just as -- just as Democrats do. I'm not excluding Democrats from this, but just as Democrats do.
CRENSHAW: You're a freedom of association. Like if you say a bunch of nasty things and you are part of my organization, I have every right to kick you out.
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, CO- FOUNDER OF ONMESSAGE: But you -- you're right. We should -- this is disgusting and violent. We should establish that there is a boundary line that is not here, that is in front of it. And Ashley is right. It doesn't matter if it's public or private. If you say it privately, you think it publicly. That's exactly right.
FOSTER: It became public.
TODD: And, you know, I live in Virginia. I'm working on the attorney general's race right now. The Democratic nominee for attorney general sent text messages wishing the Republican speaker would get two bullets to the head. He said he hoped that his wife would see their babies die in his arms.
ALLISON: Unacceptable.
TODD: The toddlers that he knew. But yet, Abby Spanberger, the nominee for governor, will not ask him to withdraw from the race. She will not withdraw her endorsement. So that's a line that we should draw.
PHILLIP: Can I just make one interesting note about that? He -- when -- because we may be in two or three years coming back to this conversation because when he made those comments, he was a state legislator. And now, he's running for a higher office. There were elected officials in this -- in this group chat. And I want to know two years, two, three years from now, whether you also want them to step aside from their roles.
TODD: Of course.
PHILLIP: We might be in this very position. Can I play one quick thing? I want to play a little bit more of J.D. Vance. This is what J.D. Vance was saying about -- you know, he thinks that the real story is who leaked this and ruining the lives of these young people.
FOSTER: I'm sorry?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: I'm 41 years old. I have three kids. You know, we -- we -- I -- I grew up in a different world, right? we're not -- most of what I -- the stupid things that I did when I was a teenager and a young adult, they're -- they're not on the internet. Like I'm going to tell my kids, especially my boys, don't put things on the internet. Like be careful with what you post.
[23:10:00]
If you put something in a group chat, assume that some scumbag is going to leak it in an effort to try to cause you harm or cause your family harm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER WELCH, PODCASTER: Okay. J.D. Vance is married to a brown woman. He has mixed-race children. And that is his response to this horrible racism. It's beyond locker room talk. I'm a white woman that has lived in a red state my entire life. And I can tell you, when I'm around white people, they test the racist water. They test it on people like you all all the time. And they'll try to say off color things. I put my hand up. It absolutely happens. You're fortunate that maybe you haven't experienced it.
CRENSHAW: I'm at different generation.
ALLISON: Can I -- can I just say, literally this August, a white person said the N-word in front of me.
WELCH: This is the vice president of the United States.
ALLISON: These were not horrible. These were grown men.
WELCH: Some are over 40 years old.
ALLISON: They -- if they --
WELCH: And some of them are women.
ALLISON: -- committed a crime, they would be prosecuted as adults. They were not children.
PHILLIP: Well, look, I mean --
ALLISON: They're not stupid kids. They can vote.
TODD: They're not kids. They accountable for --
PHILLIP: They're not kids. And a couple -- a couple of people just had their visas revoked by this administration for saying things about Charlie Kirk. This administration also tried to kick people out of the country for protesting on college campuses, pro-Palestinian protests.
I -- I just can't -- I don't see how these guys who are not college -- not -- not all of them were college. Some of them were but not all of them were, are somehow exempt from even basic levels of accountability, which is just to say, this is wrong, this is bad, but all those other people can get kicked out of the country.
WELCH: I think a lot of them are fired. I do -- I do think there has been accountability.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I'm talking about the vice president.
WELCH: Exactly. The buck stops with him.
PHILLIP: His view, it seems --
CRENSHAW: What do you want him to do? Like, leave?
PHILLIP: Well, no. I mean, I just think his --
WELCH: He should stand out against racism and stand up for his brown kids.
PHILLIP: He literally said, I don't think that other people should have their lives ruined over this.
CRENSHAW: But we're talking about two different things. We're talking about like real accountability--
ALLISON: I think he could have said -- I think a different way he could have put it, Abby, was I'm not going to tell my kids don't do something in a group chat so you don't get caught. It should be don't do it.
FOSTER: Right.
ALLISON: Because calling somebody the N-word is racist and wrong --
PHILLIP: That's hard (ph).
ALLISON: -- the history about the N-word.
PHILLIP: I mean, listen, as a parent --
ALLISON: That is with the leader, the second person. PHILLIP: As a parent, I don't know many parents who would look at a situation like this and tell their kid, the lesson here is just don't say it --
(CROSSTALK)
Also, the lesson here is don't say things like that.
FOSTER: But it's also not don't say the N-word because it's racist. I think it's actually -- we have to be more specific about these things. It is dehumanizing.
ALLISON: Yes.
FOSTER: People are individuals. They have their dignity on the basis of their individual characteristics. J.D. Vance isn't letting down his children. He is humiliating himself. And he isn't letting down his children on account of their being brown or his wife being brown. I really do think that there is a kind of obvious obscenity to the way that we talk about people, the nounification of everything where these identity silos are where we imagine people live. That's the conversation we were having the other day.
ALLISON: Yeah. I agree.
FOSTER: It was misconstrued as me suggesting Barack Obama isn't a Black man. What I'm saying is Barack Obama is an individual. We all are. That is what our dignity ought to be apportioned on the basis of. J.D. Vance could make a case like that. That's pretty straightforward. It doesn't require condemning anyone.
ALLISON: Right. But you think Barack Obama is an individual.
FOSTER: I know he's an individual.
ALLISON: Those people saying the N-word do not. And so, we have to live --
FOSTER: That may be true.
ALLISON: -- we have to live in reality, right?
FOSTER: And the reality is --
ALLISON: And so, we have to be aspirational.
FOSTER: Right.
ALLISON: But we also have to live like Black people walking down the street.
FOSTER: But no, but that's just that the aspiration is to be beyond race, to exist beyond the --
(CROSSTALK)
WELCH: -- the journey that J.D. Vance --
FOSTER: I do. And I think that is an important choice that one can make as an individual.
WELCH: -- saying, I love Hitler. And he used to say, Donald Trump is America's Hitler. So, let's look the devolution of J.D. Vance in this. I mean, not that long ago, he was whistleblowing about the man who he now serves under.
FOSTER: He's willing to say about just about anything.
WELCH: Yes. And now, he is defending the people in this group text that are talking about gassing people. They're talking about ovens, and they're saying, I love Hitler.
FOSTER: He's not quite defending them so much as up to saying --
WELCH: Saying don't get caught.
FOSTER: But I do think that -- I think -- I think the difference is meaningful.
WELCH: I think the signal -- I think the signal to -- what the racist heard is him --
PHILLIP: Quick last word.
WELCH: -- and giving it a green light. That's what I think.
TODD: We're in a world where the counter punch is the only move anybody knows. That's why Abby Spanberger won't kick J. Jones office ticket.
FOSTER: Sure.
TODD: That's why J.D. Vance felt compelled to not defend, but obfuscate, if you will. That's -- we're never going to get anywhere with a lot of our problems as long as that is the answer. There's a great chance for people to do that right now. You can denounce these guys and Abby can kick Jay off the ticket.
PHILLIP: All right. I mean, it's a very fair point. Coming up next for us, Bernie Sanders talked about it. It's supposed to be a major anti-Trump protest. But Republicans are calling this weekend's "no kings" rally a terrorist event. We'll discuss.
[23:15:00]
Plus, Zohran Mamdani goes on Fox News with a message for Donald Trump and a bizarre back and forth over Hamas. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, Republicans are livid over this weekend's "no kings" protests, which are expected to have big turnouts, and the right is calling it a terrorist event and a hate rally. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TOM EMMER (R-MN): We call it the hate America rally because you'll see the hate for America all over this thing when they show up.
SCOTT BESSENT, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: The farthest left, the hardest core, the most unhinged in the Democratic Party.
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): This will be a Soros-paid-for protest where his professional protesters show up, the agitators show up. We'll have to get the National Guard out. Hopefully, it'll be peaceful. I doubt it.
MIKE JOHNSON, SPEAKER OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: It's all the pro-Hamas wing and the, you know, Antifa people. They're all coming out. Some of the House Democrats are selling t-shirts for the event. And it's -- it's being told to us that they won't be able to reopen the government until after that rally because they can't face the rabid base.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, clearly, this is top of mind for many Republicans, including President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: They have their day coming up. I hear very few people are going to be there, by the way. But they have their day coming up. And they want to have their day in the sun. But they should really make a deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[23:19:57]
PHILLIP: In June, more than 2,000 "no kings" rallies were held across the country, protesting what organizers called authoritarianism and the militarization of our democracy. Now, tens of thousands of people showing up, including more than 50,000 in New York and more than 20,000 in Los Angeles.
John Fugelsang is with us at the table now. He's the host of SiriusXM's "Tell Me Everything" and the author of the new book "Separation of Church and Hate." And John, Trump already is teeing up an issue with crowds. So, everybody gets ready for that.
JOHN FUGELSANG, SIRIUSXM HOST, AUTHOR: Oh, yes.
PHILLIP: Potentially this weekend. But I'm actually surprised by how worried they seem to be about this when I feel like the last time, I'm not sure that they even acknowledged that these protests were going to go -- were going to go down.
FUGELSANG: You're right. They're actually acknowledging it in advance this time. And good evening, everyone. Hello. Hi, folks. Um, they're going after this protest and calling it tyranny when it's a protest against tyranny. It's being called no kings because people don't want Trump to act like a king. And our Republican friends are responding by saying, great, let him fire more people during the shutdown.
Uh, this protest was scheduled in September. They're trying to say that this somehow caused a lockdown that began October 1st. That's like blaming your hangover on the wedding you're going to next month. There will be more protests just like this. They will demonize them as much as they can and the protests are not going to stop.
PHILLIP: The logic -- the other logical part of this that I'm not understanding is what -- do Republicans really believe that after this, Democrats will be more likely to negotiate after maybe millions of people show up in the streets?
TODD: Well, let's rewind the tape. Let's rewind the tape back to the spring, the last time government nearly shut down. We had 10 Democrats, including Chuck Schumer, vote to keep the government open as the responsible thing to do. As soon as that happened, Chuck Schumer had protests at his office. Liberal groups started putting out polls showing that he would lose to AOC if in the Senate primary.
So yes, I think Democrats are scared of their protesters. And, by the way, protesters are the heart and soul of the democratic movement. It's a hippie Woodstock party. That's what they do for fun. So, yes --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I'm actually -- I -- you're -- I think you're right about the protests back then. But again, what makes you think that more protests will cause Democrats to capitulate? They are going to hear from millions of people this weekend that do not want them to capitulate. I don't understand that logic or maybe this is just a silly talking point, but it just doesn't make sense.
TODD: No. It's because they definitely couldn't do it when they knew these people were coming to town. One thing about politicians is they are really terrible about starting parades, but they get in front of ones that are already organized.
ALLISON: Can I say one thing? The last "no kings" parade was actually on the day of the military parade for Donald Trump's birthday. And I think the reason why they're paying -- Donald Trump is really paying attention to is because there were millions of people that came out for the protests and not so much for his military parade. And then, and then, to your point, they -- they did organize this before.
But one thing that somebody said in that clip that really caught my ear is that we're going to have to bring out the National Guard. And I think that is something that -- he said the quiet part out loud. So many people are concerned about the deployment of the National Guard in Washington, D.C., in Chicago, in Memphis, in LA. Mind you, those no king protests were so large also because that was the same week that the L.A. raids started to happen and people were protesting.
So, these things move in tandem. And yes, maybe Chuck Schumer is doing this because he knows he is going to be held accountable to his constituents. And guess what? That's what --
PHILLIP: So, on the National Guard, 58% of Americans say that they oppose Trump deploying the National Guard to American cities. And this seems like it has the potential, obviously, to be very combustible, but also very unpopular if Trump were to try to put down these protests by bringing out the National Guard.
CRENSHAW: Trump has given no indication he's trying to put down any protests. The clip you just played, he really was just making fun of maybe the numbers that might show up. He's barely even noticing it. Also, can we just stop and look at the inherent contradiction of saying that there is a "no kings" protest against authoritarianism?
So, let me get this straight. You live in a country where you can have tens of thousands of people come out, protest the president, insult the president, say whatever they want, sorely protected, yet authoritarianism is imminent. The irony -- the irony here is kind of --
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: -- quite reach the level of irony. This is citizens petitioning for redress of grievances because they don't like a president being a king and having immunity so his crimes are not going to be held accountable. Those in his -- those -- his flunkies do not have immunity.
And you're right, the Democrats are going to be paying attention to this. And you can bet the Democrats who will be raising the most funds because I know fundraising is what matters the most, the Democrats who promise consequences, who promise accountability, who promise hands-on Bibles in front of cameras come January of 2027, they're going to be the Democrats who raise all the funds.
[23:25:00]
The Democratic Congress may well look very different by January of 2027 than it does now.
FOSTER: Clearly, the administration thinks there's some advantage to be gained by highlighting these protests, that Democrats will make themselves look bad, that they'll look good and tough to their Republican constituents.
CRENSHAW: I don't need to say anything about --
FOSTER: But I also think it's worth acknowledging that the Trump administration has been ratcheting up tensions around these deportation efforts for a while, ratcheting up tensions around a legitimate concern that they have about protecting these ICE facilities. But that legitimate concern doesn't seem authentic when they knowingly are being so provocative with the statements that they're making around this.
If you actually care about the safety of federal employees who you know have essentially a target on their backs now because they're carrying out your orders, it seems like maybe tamping down the rhetoric would be a good option for the administration.
And I'm not -- I don't know why they haven't done that except for the fact that they seem to really enjoy the theater. They think that chaos is an advantage to them. And I think it is obviously destructive and injurious to the polity. Maybe it's helpful for them politically because it can cover up plenty of other things that might be going on at the same time. But it's grotesque (ph).
PHILLIP: They've been -- they've been producing a whole lot of movie trailers for border patrol and ICE that sort of make this into some kind of action movie, video game type of situation, even while they argue that these officers are at risk.
I also want to make a note that there's some reporting today in "The Wall Street Journal" about the Trump team's plan to overhaul the IRS to go after Democrats and liberal groups, including perhaps groups that they think are funding protests.
The Trump administration is preparing sweeping changes to the IRS that would allow the agency to pursue criminal inquiries of left-leaning groups more easily, according to people familiar. A senior IRS official involved in the effort has drawn up a list of potential targets that include major Democratic donors. The proposed changes could open the door to politically motivated probes that are being driven by Gary Shapley, an adviser to Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent.
Also, I guess the irony of this, Scott Bessent worked for George Soros for decades.
UNKNOWN: Uh-hmm.
PHILLIP: And now, I guess, is maybe opening the door to him being investigated. I know what you're thinking because I know what the talking point is. Well, Obama did it. He investigated conservative groups.
TODD: It's not talking point. That's a fact.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. I'm going to just put in on the table and say --
TODD: We tried to diminish it --
PHILLIP: Hold on.
UNKNOWN: Let's accept that it's true.
PHILLIP: Let's stipulate it.
UNKNOWN: Let's accept it for the moment.
PHILLIP: Let's say Obama did it. Right?
TODD: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Trump is doing it now.
TODD: Uh-hmm.
PHILLIP: Drawing up actual list. You're good with that?
TODD: No, I'm not good with that. In fact, I think the whole IRS is probably rotten at its core. We ought to tear the whole thing down and start over.
FOSTER: Okay.
TODD: I didn't trust the IRS when a Democrat ran it. I'm not sure I trust it now. That's because I don't trust the IRS. But we don't need the government going after people's tax status because of their political orientation or their speech. That's to me is fundamental.
UNKNOWN: Yes. That would be bad.
ALLISON: No taxes for anybody is probably the most popular thing you can say.
CRENSHAW: I would want to see more details on what's actually being proposed because when you're about criminal charges, you're implying that someone has already broken the law.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
CRENSHAW: Okay, so maybe that -- we have a lot of rules about what you're supposed to report, for instance, if you're engaging in political activity. We probably have more of those rules, to be honest. And if you're breaking those rules, you would be subject to criminal violations. So, if that's what we're talking about, then this isn't -- this is kind of a nothing burger.
UNKNOWN: That's what happened under Obama.
TODD: This question is content-based. That's the only question.
UNKNOWN: Under Barack Obama --
PHILLIP: I mean, I guess, here's -- I think sure, of course, if you're breaking the law, you should be held accountable.
UNKNOWN: We need more details before we --
PHILLIP: But, I mean, let's -- if the reporting is what it is and also if you take the public statements of people like J.D. Vance and others, the reporting is that they are drawing up a list, and that list includes major Democratic donors. So, they're actually deciding in advance who they're going to look at based on party affiliation.
And then let me just add one more, let me just finish one more thing. J.D. Vance, very recently, also made it clear that they are going to go after Democratic donors, Democratic-leaning foundations. He already said it publicly. So, I'm not sure what more you need to hear. They've made it clear they are going to go after people. CRENSHAW: I would need to see action that actually violates the law, and I really don't think they have any intention of doing that. There's rhetoric and then there's actually the actions you can take within the law.
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: Sure, you may not like the rhetoric, but it is what it is. It's rhetoric. Action is what matters. And because what we have seen is very organized and very well-funded somebodies, you know, delivering weapons or delivering rocks, bricks, things to violent protests, which indeed --
PHILLIP: Delivering what?
CRENSHAW: We have seen in past protests.
FUGELSANG: I get uber bricks to have all my bricks out.
CRENSHAW: Yeah, actually.
ALLISON: I think -- I think --
(CROSSTALK)
[23:30:00]
ALLISON: I also know -- I also know --
UNKNOWN: -- gallows January 6.
ALLISON: Can I say --
CRENSHAW: You think it's all just very organic?
ALLISON: Well, I think it's really -- I mean, I know people who have had --
CRENSHAW: -- violent activities --
ALLISON: -- dozens of pizzas delivered to their house following "no kings" protest, which is -- this is -- this is what the reporting actually signals to me. This is a chilling effect. I actually don't know if they're going to take any action. But what they want to signal ahead of the year of a midterm where it looks like it could go back to them, at least the House, that they want to signal to Democratic donors, don't give.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
ALLISON: Don't give so they can't organize, so they can't communicate, so they can't win. And so, if you -- most of the time, a threat of litigation, a threat of an investigation can have a chilling effect, and that is, I think, what they're trying --
FUGELSANG: The myth that Barack Obama did this, I just want to address really quickly, because they were going after tax cheats. They were going after political organizations that were cheating on their taxes by saying they weren't political.
(CROSSTALK)
Gentlemen, please let me finish my sentence. There were zero conservative groups that lost their tax-exempt status. But Emerge America, a liberal group out of Texas, did lose their tax-exempt status during Barack Obama's investigation. It was not going after them for ideology, but for cheating the rest of us who do pay our damn taxes. This is harassment.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, in our town hall, Bernie Sanders says Democrats in all states should want a candidate like Zohran Mamdani. See what happened when the socialist frontrunner in New York joined Fox News.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: On the eve of his debate against Andrew Cuomo, the frontrunner in New York's mayoral race is appearing on Fox News. And Zohran Mamdani, the Democratic socialist, had a direct message for the president of the United States, who threatened funds to his city if he is elected.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZOHRAN MAMDANI, NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: I just want to speak directly to the president, which is that I will not be a mayor like Mayor Adams who will call you to figure out how to stay out of jail. I won't be a disgraced governor like Andrew Cuomo who will call you to ask how to win this election. I can do those things on my own. I will, however, be a mayor who is ready to speak at any time to lower the cost of living. That's the way that I'm going to lead this city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's a choice going on Fox News. It's a choice to do the direct to camera thing. What do you think of it, Ashley?
ALLISON: I like it. I like it. What I heard in the last comment is that, and I will work with you, President Trump, if you -- he wants to lower prices. And so, he didn't say, and I won't do that by not taking your call. But he also threw some jabs at his opponent. So, it was like a perfect campaign pitch, but also a personal promotion that I can be a leader that can govern across the aisle. Smart. On Fox News.
TODD: He blew it up, though. He also said today, I have no opinion on what should happen to Hamas. Like he can't help himself. He's a far left lunatic, and he can't go on --
FUGELSANG: He said he thinks international law should be applied. TODD: He spins like --
CRENSHAW: What does that mean?
TODD: Well, that's gobbledygook.
FUGELSANG: That means war crimes for both sides, is what it means. It was very smart to go on Fox News tonight because now he's guaranteed that he will have a substantially larger audience to watch the debate tomorrow with Cuomo. And I think that's what that turn to the camera moment was all about.
PHILLIP: Let me play what Bernie Sanders said about Mamdani tonight at the town hall. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): He's a great candidate. This should be the model. What we want. You know, we got political problems in our country. People have given up on the political process. He's getting people excited, getting them involved. I would like to see that take place in 50 states in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, of course, you disagree on probably every single thing that comes out of Mamdani's mouth. But do you see what Bernie Sanders sees in terms of the political -- um, let's call it political talent of this particular candidate?
CRENSHAW: Political talent and, you know, smart on policy are two very different things.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
CRENSHAW: I disagree with Bernie Sanders on just about everything, too. So, look, I'm not from New York. I'm not voting in this election. I'm barely following it. I was just --I didn't even know Eric Adams had dropped out, honestly, so like five minutes --
(LAUGHTER)
I mean, it was kind of disappointing because I think that's, you know, a good, independent voice there that maybe have a chance. I don't know. I don't know what New Yorkers are in for.
When you're talking about lowering prices, when you're talking about price controls, we can do a quick economics lesson on what price control do. Right? What does it do? It decreases supply because when you put price controls on things, well, all right, well guess what? You make this mug. Well, now you can only sell it for two bucks. Well, guess what? Well, I can't make a profit with two bucks, so I'm not going to sell it anymore.
So, you have a decrease in supply and you're have a decrease in goods. You're going to have a decrease in everything. It creates massive problems for the economy. If that's his plan, I just --
PHILLIP: I just have to say it because, you know, the president was just talking about price floors in response to retaliatory tariffs. So, we got people talking about price controls on both sides of the aisle right now.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: If we look at prime time television tonight, though, the three leading Democrats who are on -- on one channel, you had Zohran Mamdani. In another channel, you had AOC and Bernie Sanders. These are three avowed socialists, the most extreme party in the -- people in the Democratic Party. That's who's rising to the top --
FUGELSANG: Democratic socialists.
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: They're Democratic socialists. They are not calling for nationalization of industry. They're Democratic socialists.
TODD: Mamdani says he wants to seize the means of production.
FUGELSANG: Mamdani is in his policies, so much closer to the actual teachings of Jesus.
TODD: Did he say that or not? Did he say -- sees the means of production? He did.
FUGELSANG: Of the means of production for what? In Manhattan? Of what? For (INAUDIBLE)?
TODD: -- production.
FUGELSANG: They're Democratic socialists. It's not the same. This is what they did to MLK as well. This guy, Mamdani, is not afraid to stand up to Trump. He is so charming and so popular. Record-high turnout of young people --
TODD: You keep telling yourself that.
FUGELSANG: -- in this -- in this --
TODD: You keep telling yourself that.
FUGELSANG: -- in the mayoral primary. That's the numbers. I'm not making it up. Record-high --
TODD: Elevate him. Elevate him.
FUGELSANG: Excuse me. Record-high turnout. And he's able like Obama and Buttigieg to be wonky but warm. The Democrats have to keep this guy at arm's length. He's too good.
PHILLIP: But I guess to your point, Brad, you are right that these three individuals, you can describe them as far-left or right or whatever.
TODD: We don't say far-left.
PHILLIP: They are also very popular.
[23:40:00]
And they -- they have massive followings.
CRENSHAW: What is going to better for New York City if this guy gets what the policies he wants? Somebody explain that.
FOSTER: No, I was just going to say --
FUGELSANG: Four people having an easier time helps --
FOSTER: I'm not so sure about that. Look, I think we can --
CRENSHAW: When the things don't exist in the first place --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Go ahead.
FOSTER: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
It is -- it is important to evaluate the quality of the policies being argued for. Free buses, state-run bodegas. These are bad ideas. These are not the sort of transformational policies that one can actually expect to really have an impact on the actual cost of living here in New York City.
And quite frankly, I don't know that most of the Democratic socialist agenda and program seems to point in that direction. I do think that there is an uncomfortable reality for conservatives. MAGA is populist and Donald Trump has talked about price controls openly, his tariff agenda. All of this stuff is alien from the conservative movement that I have had any familiarity with over most of my lifetime.
And the fact that most of our politics seems to orbit around something Bernie Sanders has been advocating for the last decade, he is perhaps -- Well, yeah, Bernie Sanders seems to be perhaps the most consequential man --
PHILLIP: Can I add?
FOSTER: Even more than that.
PHILLIP: But not just --
CRENSHAW: There's a difference between international trade and --
PHILLIP: Okay. Well, let me -- let me add one more for you. You can add this to your list on -- you can add this to your healthcare list, congressman. Donald Trump announced a policy in which he's working with the healthcare companies to have a government-run website where you can buy drugs at a lower price. Guess whose idea that was? Bernie Sanders.
FOSTER: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Donald Trump also announced that he was going to take a stake in Intel in exchange for government funds to stabilize the country. Guess whose idea that was? Bernie Sanders. So, it's not just on international stuff, it's also domestic stuff. Trump is taking from the playbook of these radical Democratic socialists and he is running it as MAGA policy.
CRENSHAW: You know, these are one of the drug pricing. Like I -- I'm not in favor of a lot of those issues. I'm not sure which one you're talking about in particular.
PHILLIP: The one that he just announced with Pfizer like two weeks ago.
CRENSHAW: I was very much against. Doing -- doing selective negotiation is a little different than broad-based policy of saying there's going to be price controls on X, Y or Z. And there's also difference between domestic policy where everyone is playing by the same economic rules for the most part, right? The same permitting laws, same labor laws, and then dealing in international trade where there is an unfairness inherent --
PHILLIP: Okay. But I guess what I'm saying is that --
CRENSHAW: -- what are conservatives usually trying to conserve? Our founding fathers think that we should actually get revenue from government?
PHILLIP: Price controls are price controls. And when he says, I'm going to force -- I'm going to force buyers to buy, you know, crops at a certain price to protect farmers, those are price controls. They are distortionary in economic terms, meaning that they create problems where the free market is supposed to allow supply and demand to rule. So, this is happening right now from Donald Trump. It's really -- so, to Kmele's point --
CRENSHAW: We've been doing the farm bill for a while.
PHILLIP: Yeah, but to Kmele's point, the populism is the common denominator here. And populism looks one way if you're Bernie, AOC, and Mamdani. But it also looks another way if you're Donald Trump. And voters are actually saying --
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- I might be okay with some of that.
ALLISON: The original question, Abby, was, is he a good politician and a good candidate? And I think you have to honestly answer yes, because good politicians can mobilize voters to show up, particularly voters who have stayed home in the past, and he was able to do that.
So, whether you agree with his policies or not, that doesn't undermine the fact -- just like Donald Trump is a good candidate. Like he --he can -- he can do it. Right? He has won twice. I don't like his policies, but he's a good candidate.
This is the thing I think people are missing. And we missed last year. People are telling us things are too expensive. People are telling us they don't like what is happening right now in our government. And Donald Trump said, I'm going to do something different. Now, whether he did something different, that's a whole another thing.
But so is Mamdani. He is saying New York -- New York has always been expensive, right? People leave because they can't survive here. And there are some people that don't have that luxury because they are from here and their families are from here. And he is saying, I understand you, I hear you. Now, whether you think his policies are going to work, that is what most people --
FOSTER: Do you think his policies are going to work?
ALLISON: I think some of them will.
(CROSSTALK)
I think -- I think some of them will.
CRENSHAW: -- inflation is 9%.
ALLISON: I think some of them will work. He asked me if I thought I think all of his policies are right. Honestly, I don't live in New York, so I haven't followed all his policies either. But I do think some of his policies will work.
This is the one thing I just want to say to Democrats. If Mamdani is elected mayor, you need to help him be successful. If you are not endorsing him right now, I think that's a problem because we as a Democratic Party, we say endorse the Democratic nominee. And if a Democrat wins, help them.
TODD: Hakeem Jeffries seems to be scared to do that. You know why?
[23:45:00]
Because he knows that if he becomes the head of the National Democratic Party in theory, it hurts their ability to win the House. As a Republican campaign consultant, I'll take all of Zohran, all of AOC, all of Bernie. You can --
ALLISON: Yeah, I think -- I think that's a mistake. Hakeem Jeffries represents Flatbush (ph). Like, he is safe and I think he can run a -- we want to say we're the Big Ten coalition. So there has to be room for Mamdani as well.
TODD: But he is afraid to endorse him.
ALLISON: I think that's the problem.
(CROSSTALK) I think that's the problem.
FUGELSANG: Because if they just came out and endorsed him and said, how do you like that? He's the pick of New Yorkers. People who are scared of Mamdami, they'd still respect him for having the forthrightness and the guts to do it.
You have excellent point, though. I have no doubt, like Clinton and Obama, he will smack into a brick wall of reality of politics and not be able to do so many of the things he's tried to do. We know that's going to happen, and that will be the real test once he gets the job.
PHILLIP: So, this is not a Democrat necessarily. But JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon says, um, I have to deal with the world I've got, you know, not the world I want. If he becomes mayor, so be it. He says, it doesn't mean I agree with him. But maybe if he asks for help, in a way, I refused -- it may be that he asked for help in a way I refuse to do it, but maybe he's actually looking for help --
ALLISON: That's right.
PHILLIP: -- in things we could do. And I suspect --
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- that he's not the only one. Finance industry, real estate, you're going to see all those people come knocking trying to figure out how to work with him because -- I mean, look, he's going to be the mayor more than likely, right? They're going to figure out how to deal with him. And then I think the ball is in Mamdani's court. What does he do? Does he take the call? I asked him that and he wouldn't really say what he would do. And I think that's going to be the most important question.
TODD: So, by that logic, going back to our first conversation, shouldn't Democrats be trying to help Donald Trump be successful?
PHILLIP: I mean --
FOSTER: Sure.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
FOSTER: I've made that case.
PHILLIP: Do you think that Donald Trump wants that?
TODD: I think Donald Trump will cut a deal with anyone. I think --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: -- 20 million people off Medicaid.
PHILLIP: It's so interesting, Brad, because, you know, we were talking the other day about Trump's ability to bring all of these people to the table on the international stage. He'll sit down with Hamas, right? Why won't he broker a deal? A deal that could be historic with Democrats on healthcare, on immigration.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. I just want -- I'm not trying to fight with you, guys. Okay? I'm just asking a simple question about Trump's tactics. And putting the government shut down aside, he likes to be a historic figure.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
PHILLIP: He could do a peace deal with the other side of the aisle. But for some reason, at home, he won't do it.
TODD: Well --
PHILLIP: Why?
TODD: Because, first off, you've got -- you're going to have hundreds of thousands of people come to Washington and Democrats cheer them on to protest against him this week.
PHILLIP: So what?
TODD: The Democrats in Congress -- the Democrats in Congress are doing nothing to try to help him accomplish things. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have been for tariffs their whole career, and yet they come on this network and trashes tariffs every chance they get. There is no goodwill among Democrats in Washington.
Donald Trump, he's flexible on a lot of things, as he has proven. He would be willing to negotiate with Democrats, but they want to satisfy their angry base more than they want to help --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- evidence that Trump has tried to negotiate with Democrats. Like really. He brought -- he brought Hakeem Jeffries and Schumer into the Oval Office, put a Trump 2028 hat on the table, and basically trolled them for the next three days. If he really wants to make a deal, he would make a deal.
CRENSHAW: He refused to buy (INAUDIBLE). It's so absurd. It's a complex policy issue that is completely separate from the budget. It just is. And it's something that we need to negotiate and talk about, but it has to happen in regular order in our committees. And it's a very complex issue.
PHILLIP: I get it. I'm talking about putting -- put the government shutdown away for just a second.
CRENSHAW: I agree. Put it away.
PHILLIP: Just in regular --
CRENSHAW: Vote to keep the government open. PHILLIP: No, no, no. Just one second. In regular order. Just -- just look. We have big issues as a country, right? And I think the two biggest issues that can be addressed by Congress are immigration and health care.
CRENSHAW: Yeah.
PHILLIP: And let's say the government is open tomorrow. Trump could convene in his big, beautiful ballroom a very important summit where they really hammer this stuff out, where they come up with something historic and important. I actually think he could do it if he wanted to.
CRENSHAW: Let me tell you, I'm on the Energy and Commerce Health Subcommittee. The vast majority of bills that we work on and pass are bipartisan. We do work on health care a lot. Doesn't get a lot of flashy news or anything because it's not these big fights about this particular necessity.
ALLISON: That's what AOC said tonight, too.
CRENSHAW: Absolutely. The Health Subcommittee in particular works together a lot. The vast majority of bills we pass out of Congress are suspension bills. Okay? They're called suspension bills because we suspend the rules. Why do we suspend the rules of debate? Because everyone agrees. And that's the vast majority of things we actually pass.
[23:49:58]
So, we do this, but this shutdown nonsense is -- I don't think it was well thought out. I can see in the polling that Democrats are losing support for it because people are seeing that it's unreasonable. We are. People are seeing that it's unreasonable.
FUGELSANG: Marjorie Greene (ph) is telling the truth. She's so scared.
CRENSHAW: Came up with this demand all of sudden. That's unrelated to the C.R. We passed a clean C.R. AOC was on that town hall acting like Mike Johnson had voted to keep the government shut down. If an alien was watching that, that's what they would think, because that's how misleading that town hall was. Why won't Republicans just open it up? We tried to vote multiple times.
TODD: Nine times. Nine times the Senate voted.
CRENSHAW: Nine times.
FUGELSANG: Mike Johnson is not trying to open it and the Republicans are not in D.C. But it's lovely to have you here in New York.
CRENSHAW: We already vote. We already did our vote.
FUGELSANG: That's (INAUDIBLE). Donald Trump doesn't want to -- Donald Trump doesn't want to open the government yet. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let's leave this conversation here. We've got much more ahead. Next, Republicans want the administration to force airports to show this Kristi Noem TSA video, and Democrats are calling it illegal.
[23:55:00]
PHILLIP: There are growing legal concerns over the video message of Kristi Noem blaming Democrats for the government shutdown. It's supposed to be played at TSA checkpoints and airports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTI NOEM, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Democrats in Congress refuse to fund the federal government. And because of this, many of our operations are impacted and most of our TSA employees are working without pay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Senate Democrats say that not only does it break the law, but it's an insult to TSA employees. Several major airports across the country have already refused to play it. And Republican Congresswoman Lauren Boebert says that's unacceptable and warns that she'll be demanding action, because I guess this is at the top of the to-do list for Congress.
I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if this is actually a violation of the Hatch Act, which prohibits, you know, political activity from federal employees who are non-political. But it is odd and we have not really seen that before. And I'm not sure that airports need to be a place where politics is injected.
TODD: I'd say all the TSA workers hope that the Democrats drop their filibuster so they can get their paycheck at the end of the month. So, they might actually like to hear that message being broadcast to the -- to the passengers as they wait.
We can end this shutdown really quickly. And you won't have any of these videos to worry about in airports or anything like that. We just have to stop the filibuster in the Senate.
ALLISON: Oh.
FUGELSANG: The Hatch Act says that government employees may not use government materials to issue partisan political statements. And Kristi Noem treats that law like she treats a dog in a gravel pit. She has now turned airport security into a Fox News segment. It is black and white.
CRENSHAW: This is statement of facts. Just a fact. And it's a fact that lot of people don't quite understand. And I do think TSA agents would like to get their paycheck. And she is their direct boss. I think she feels desperate like she needs to fight for them.
FOSTER: I think the risk --
CRENSHAW: And I think people -- I don't have any problem with playing this at airports. Now, I also agree with local rights. And airports won't play it. Fine. I don't like it. I think they should because she's stating facts.
FOSTER: But aren't Republicans running a pretty serious risk here? Even if they are successful in making this all the Democrats' fault, even if I accept all those premises, at some point, you don't just start to look like, oh, the Democrats have done a thing. You're feckless. Why can't you just get the government open? Find a way to get me paid. At some point, this looks negatively partisan because it is. And I think that is the mistake, miscalculation on Kristi Noem's part.
CRENSHAW: The numbers are the numbers, right? We passed -- we passed our bill out of the House. Okay? We passed a bill to keep the government open and a clean C.R. which, by the way, CR, a funding bill that has been the same C.R. since the Biden days. It's not like --
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: The reason we passed a temporary one is so that we can negotiate calmly. You can't negotiate calmly with the government shutdown.
ALLISON: Yes, you can.
CRENSHAW: No. It has never happened before.
ALLISON: You can.
CRENSHAW: It has never happened before.
ALLISON: Well, you could make it. You could do it if you wanted to.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on. Wait. Are you saying -- I'm sorry, let me just make sure. You're saying that we've never negotiated during a government shutdown before?
UNKNOWN: Extraneous issues.
CRENSHAW: It doesn't work well.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I just want to remind -- hold on. I agree with --
UNKNOWN: We're bailing out Argentina during a government shutdown.
PHILLIP: I just want to remind people, I want to remind people that when Trump was president, he was president and he tried to -- he actually shut the government down multiple times in order to get negotiations over his border wall. And those negotiations did, in fact, happen. But ultimately failed and the government was reopened.
But I'm just saying, like, yeah, A, there have been negotiations during government shutdown demanded by Republicans, and B, yeah, Trump was on the other side of this issue the last time around. He was actually the president and also shut the government down, which is actually crazy to think about, but that actually happened.
FUGELSANG: When you throw millions of people off of Medicaid, when they get sick, they will show up at the emergency room, and local taxpayers will fit the bill. That is the socialism they're fighting for and that is what is terrifying Marjorie Taylor Greene right now because this budget will hurt red state voters.
PHILLIP: Meanwhile, kids running around at airports are going to hear this message. I imagine that when the shoe is on the other foot -- I mean, with all of this stuff, Ashley, I mean, are Democrats just going to drop the hammer on Republicans by just doing all the things?
ALLISON: I hope they don't do that. The airport thing. I mean, the airport is painful as it is. I don't need to hear any more messages from anybody. I just need to get on the plane and get to where I'm going to be without delay, get some coffee or drink.
FUGELSANG: I'm trying to be descriptive of my dignity on the line. I don't want to hear propaganda.
ALLISON: You know, I already got to like put this here. They're yelling at you. Take your laptop out. I don't need it. Okay? But to your question, yeah, I think, you know, Democrats will -- if and when they get in power, they will use some of the tactics that they feel like have been deployed on them in this moment.
[00:00:01]
I think they should use it. You just said -- you just said we should get -- we should get rid of the filibuster, and that was something that I --
TODD: End this one. I want you to end this particular --
ALLISON: Okay. Well --
TODD: Yeah.
ALLISON: I don't know. I mean, I just -- this is a joke.
PHILLIP: I think we're already -- I think with this shutdown, we're already seeing Democrats employing Republican tactics, and that's why we are where we are.
Everyone, thank you very much for being here. And thank you for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
