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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
GOP Turns Up Rhetoric Over Tomorrow's No Kings Protests; Trump Commutes Prison Sentence Of George Santos; Trump Warns Venezuela's Maduro To Not Mess Around With The United States; CEO Warns Of A Black Swan Event Labor Shortage. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 17, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, on the eve of nationwide protests unfit for a king, the rhetoric rises --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: mobs of radicals at the I Hate America Rally.
PHILLIP: -- one Democrat compares the GOP's villainizing of protestors to a segregationist.
Plus, the president frees George Santos from prison, and apparently the main reason, he's a Republican.
Also peacemaker abroad, flamethrower at home, why Donald Trump is becoming something he used to hate, a globalist.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: They will disarm or we will disarm him.
I'm with this man because his philosophy is correct.
PHILLIP: And cockroaches, black swans, more and more CEOs are testing new metaphors to raise the alarm on the economy.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Ashley Allison, Lance Trover and Chuck Rocha.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. We are back in the test kitchen of the Food Network, our sister company, for Fall Fridays, and we'll catch up with the crowd later in the show and our chefs who are there busy preparing food for us.
But, first, depending on who you ask, it is the eve of freedom or the eve of terror. Just hours from now, thousands upon thousands will gather in the streets for the nationwide No Kings protests. Organizers say that they're speaking out against Donald Trump and his abuse of power. Republicans are framing it quite differently.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): They're going to bring together the Marxists, the socialists, the Antifa advocates, the anarchist, and the pro-Hamas wing of the far left Democrat Party. That is the modern Democratic Party. That's where they've gone. And the Hate America rally is the common theme among all those groups.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, these protests come at an interesting time. The government is still shut down three weeks now, both sides aren't even talking, and now top Democrats are going after Karoline Leavitt for some extreme accusations that she leveled against the party's base.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Democrat Party's main constituency are made up of Hamas terrorists, illegal aliens, and violent criminals. That is who the Democrat Party is catering to. They don't stand for anything except for catering to their far left base, which, as I said, includes anti-Semites, includes Hamas terrorists, illegal aliens, and violent criminals who they want to let off freely to roam in American streets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Karoline Leavitt is a complete and total disgrace. She continues to embarrass herself. It gets worse every time she opens her mouth. She's lying about something. And, of course, she's lying about the patriotic Americans who are going to exercise their First Amendment rights to petition the government and express themselves and gather in a peaceful assembly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, Ashley, I don't know why Republicans are so exercised about this protest tomorrow compared to the last time that it was happening, but could it be the sense that there is more momentum this time around than there was the last time? I mean, what's your sense of how much energy there is and how many people we might see tomorrow?
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think there's going to be a million of Americans and people protesting tomorrow to protect our democracy. I think that the reason why Republicans are paying attention now is because the last time the No Kings protest took place, it was on Donald Trump's birthday, and he thought millions of people were going to show up for that and they didn't. And instead they showed up for protests that day. And so now he's like, maybe I'm not as popular as I think.
But for Republicans, what I would argue is that you should want millions of people to go out into the streets. You should want millions of people to be able to peacefully protest. Because that is the perfect counterpoint you can say to me when I say, I think our democracy is under attack with authoritarian regime. What you shouldn't do is call us Marxists or socialists, or you can be whatever you want in America. That's the beauty of a democracy.
And I swear, I really do, I thought a couple weeks ago we said we were going to take the temperature down. Protesting peacefully in the street is taking the temperature down. Calling people, Hamas, sympathizers, socialists, all the other, the terrible things they've said, that is not what that does.
PHILLIP: Yes. Whatever happened to that, Lance, I mean, the idea? Whatever happened to the fact that they -- I mean, literally, just a few weeks ago, the idea was, let's take the temperature down, let's not call each other these things that make this seem like some kind of existential struggle. What happened to that?
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Who are the sponsors of this event tomorrow? Let's say, indivisible the leading defund the police organization in this country.
[22:05:02]
ALLISON: No, they are not.
TROVER: Jewish Voice --
ALLISON: Individual is not the leading defund of police. That is like factually incorrect. They were --
TROVER: They were the lead for years to defund the police.
ALLISON: No, they weren't. That's wrong.
TROVER: Jewish Voice For Peace is a Hamas sympathetic group. They power around with students for justice for Palestine, another Hamas- funded organization.
ALLISON: They're not the lead --
TROVER: These are the organizations. George Soros-funded organization, they're the most radical left groups that are sponsoring --
PHILLIP: So, are you arguing that those organizations are single- handedly going to bring millions of people in the streets? We're talking people are free 2,500 different plans and events for protests. I mean, is that the argument here? And the second part of the argument, my question to you, is, are you arguing that if groups are funding protests, that they shouldn't be allowed to happen?
TROVER: 100 -- anybody can go protest. No, absolutely not. Anybody can go protest what they want. But you played clips of members of Congress talking about this event. I think it is worth noting who is sponsoring this event. Defund the police-type people, Hamas sympathizers. That's what these groups stand for.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And not to mention the Communist Party of it's on the poster here in New York City.
TROVER: Thank you.
JENNINGS: I mean, you've got Boomer Cranks. They've been protesting every day, cranky commies, Antifa people. I mean, what they're saying is true. A lot of the people with these sympathies are going to be at these events. I'm sure there'll be some peaceful protesters there. I hope there's no violence, but given what we've seen in cities around America, it is highly likely we're going to see violent elements.
ALLISON: Where? When?
CHUCK ROCHA, SUBSTACK, THE ROCHA REVOLUTION: Wait I would like to say that I want to get to the press secretary's comments about the base of the party. I've voted in every Democratic primary since I was old enough to vote. I'm considered the base of the party. I was a union member. I grew up in a trailer house in East Texas. I went home last week. And I took my wife home to East Texas and I went to a Baptist church where I was saved and baptized. I'm the base of the party. I went to a high school football game where I was an Allstate football player. I'm the base of the party. And then I went by the factory that had been shut down because my job was moved overseas. I'm the base of the Democratic Party, not these other folks.
PHILLIP: Andy Kim, the senator, compared Speaker Johnson's comments about these protests to what was said about the March on Washington of 1963 by George Wallace. He said, segregationist George Wallace said about the march on Washington, I do think the march under the leadership of men who are in the Communist Party, and have been, is not good for the country citizens being used by communists to disrupt and destroy internal peace. That's the comparison that he's making.
JENNINGS: Well, look, I mean, if Democrats want to embrace having the Communist Party here in New York City sponsor this rally, you know, be my guest. Respectfully, and I hear what you're saying, but where is the energy in the Democratic Party? You see energy around protecting illegal populations. You see it every day, energy in around criminals, violent criminals. I mean, Democratic officials all over this country have worked very hard to let violent criminals out on the streets. Where is the lie and what is being said by Karoline Leavitt? This is where the energy is on the left.
ALLISON: The energy --
JENNINGS: Violent illegal aliens, violent criminals, that's the energy. That's what you see.
ALLISON: The energy is behind protecting people's rights. It's behind not having citizens --
JENNINGS: Who's?
ALLISON: -- arrest -- citizens, Americans.
JENNINGS: What about illegal aliens being around by us? ALLISON: Many Democrats have said, we got the immigration issue wrong and we need to fix it, perhaps maybe in Congress, but we know that won't happen because they aren't even working right now. But people are protesting Americans being zip tied, being detained without having their rights protected. I'm not saying that is not who is -- that is not the Democratic Party saying that let all illegal people or criminals run free. That is not what the Democratic Party is saying.
JENNINGS: Those are the policies. Those are your -- those are the --
ALLISON: No, they are not.
JENNINGS: I mean, you have prosecutors and judges all over this country that have let violent criminal after violent criminal out on the streets. And then what do they do? They commit other violent crimes.
PHILLIP: Scott, what does that have to do with people exercising their rights to protest? I just -- I really want to understand. I mean, there are going to be millions of people probably out on the streets all over the country, and many of those people are, you know, your neighbors, perhaps some of your friends, they're regular Americans that have constitutional rights, that have voting rights like everybody else. Why is it that that there is this idea that guilt by association should be applied to them when they just want to go out and protest against a political administration that they disagree with?
JENNINGS: I have no problem with people protesting peacefully. They have every right to do that. I do think it's legitimate --
PHILLIP: Then why demonize them?
JENNINGS: Because I think it's a legitimate political debate about what they're protesting for.
PHILLIP: I mean, look, listen, if every time - I mean, and this does happen on the right -- on the left, to some extent. Some conservatives get mad when Democrats say, oh, you guys are palling around with white supremacists and racists, and so on and so forth. Charlottesville, a great example, they're --
[22:10:01]
ALLISON: Or the group chat.
PHILLIP: Yes, the group chat this week, January 6th, all of that, everybody painted with the same brush and you all were opposed and upset about that. Why are you applying then that same thing in this situation?
JENNINGS: Again, if they want to protest peacefully, that's perfectly fine. It is perfectly legitimate political debate for Republicans to say what exactly are they protesting. They are mad that Donald Trump is enforcing federal immigration law, they are mad that he is lawfully exercising the powers of the presidency, and they are fighting for policies that Republicans fundamentally believe.
PHILLIP: Well, I do think they disagree with all of the things that you just said.
JENNINGS: It's a legit debate.
PHILLIP: They disagree. You characterize those things as lawful and they disagree and they're expressing their disagreement.
But I want to play this from Amy Coney Barrett, the Supreme Court justice. She's spoken with a New York Times columnist about some of these concerns about President Trump's use of his presidential power. Her answer on the Supreme Court's role in all of this, you might find surprising.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where it's very easy to imagine from either the left or the right, some present or future president deciding to test the court, Andrew Jackson-style, saying interesting ruling, Justice Barrett, good luck enforcing it. If a president defied the Supreme Court, what would you do?
JUSTICE AMY CONEY BARRETT, U.S. SUPREME COURT: Well, the, as you say, the court lacks the power of the purse. We lack the power of the sword. And so we interpret the constitution, we draw in precedents. We have these questions of structure, and, you know, we make the most with the tools that we have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROCHA: You know, I watched that today when we send it around and I had not seen it previously. And it's funny that we picked this piece because it was the part that stuck out to me the most and it kind of shook me. She was like, we ain't in charge of the money. We ain't in charge of having a sword. She used the word, sword. And then she was like, I don't know what they could be doing because we just do the Constitution. That's what we do, and kind of just pivoted. And I was like, oh my God.
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, part of the reason that that question is so important to ask someone like her is because people on the left who disagree with you and you, they believe that the Supreme Court has given the president carte blanche. There's also a lot of evidence that the Supreme Court, in what they call the shadow docket, has allowed Trump to move forward with things that many people think are ultimately unconstitutional way more than they have stopped him. So, there are some concerns that there are no guardrails.
And, again, this comes back to the question of why are people in the streets? That's why they're in the streets. Not because they're communists, not because they're Hamas fighters or whatever, but because they have legitimate concerns about things like this.
TROVER: Well, what is the concern? I mean, I don't understand what the concern is. We have three branches of government that are operating how they should. Republicans control two of them. We have a Supreme Court. As she noted in her interview today, the 6-3 number on that court, there's very few decisions that actually come down 6-3 from this court. It's very, very few. So, I'm not really sure what the complaint is.
Donald Trump hasn't violated any Supreme Court order. He got tested this week. They said he couldn't send the National Guard into Chicago and some of these other towns. He didn't do it. So, that's why I don't understand what they're protesting over it. To me, they just want to go back to the status quo prior to what the American people said they wanted last November 5th.
ALLISON: The reality is it doesn't even matter what they're protesting. The fact is they live in America and they can, and they shouldn't be demonized because they did.
TROVER: Nobody's demonizing them. That's --
ALLISON: Calling them pro-Hamas is demonization.
JENNINGS: Well, there will be some of those elements in the crowd.
TROVER: Absolutely.
ALLISON: So, pro-Hamas is not demonization?
JENNINGS: I'm saying that --
TROVER: They're flying their colors, Ashley.
ALLISON: No, they're --
JENNINGS: Are we supposed to ignore the fact that in New York City on a routine basis, they're flying their flag?
ALLISON: Here's a pro tip. When they start saying people are pro- Hamas, when they start saying people are defund the police, those are triggers to make you worry about people exercising their First Amendment rights. These are Americans who don't like the current ruling of the president. They are allowed to do that. That is their First Amendment right. We live in democracies for now.
JENNINGS: I'm all for it. If they want to fly those colors, fine.
PHILLIP: More breaking news, the president just freed George Santos from prison because he's a Republican. We'll debate that.
Plus, as the U.S. strikes another boat, but this time takes survivors. Is Donald Trump laying the groundwork for war with Venezuela?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He's offered everything. You're right. You know why? Because --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Breaking tonight, Donald Trump is using his power to free one of his supporters, who happens to be one of the most infamous congressmen in recent history. The president is commuting the seven- year fraud sentence of George Santos, the man behind some of these iconic moments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FMR. REP. GEORGE SANTOS (R-NY): I'm Catholic, but I'm also Jew-ish.
No, I was not a drag queen in Brazil, guys. I was young and I had fun at a festival. Sue me for having a life.
142 people ask for me to resign.
REPORTER: Should you step away from the committees --
SANTOS: Sorry, nobody tell to do anything. I've made a decision on my own and I thought that's representative (INAUDIBLE).
REPORTER: But what prompted that? I mean, there's --
SANTOS: Ow.
REPORTER: Sorry.
SANTOS: Guys, you got to relax. You're assaulting me.
Did I embellish my resume? Yes, I did. And I'm sorry.
The next time he tries to accost me with a child in my hand, I want him out of here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened?
SANTOS: He's an animal. I am holding a child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Trump called Santos a rogue, but suggested that he's freeing him from prison because he's a Republican.
[22:20:04]
And as we often have to ask at this table, if this had been done by somebody else, that was the rationale for it, Scott, don't you think you all would be having a conniption?
JENNINGS: Well, I guess it could be worse. It could be one of Donald Trump's family members. I mean, look, I always thought he was --
PHILLIP: Sure, absolutely. But -- JENNINGS: -- a weirdo and con artist. I'm not sure why the president chose to level mercy onto George Santos, but my advice to him would be, do not squander this opportunity. You know, you've been given a second chance at life. Maybe --
PHILLIP: You're referring to Santos?
JENNINGS: To Santos. Try to like maybe live a little bit better life.
I will say I was looking at the sentences today. He got seven years. The guy who tried to kill Kavanaugh got eight years. I don't quite understand some of the sentencing that's going on in America right now. He did serve some time in prison, so I don't know.
TROVER: He also said he went to solitary confinement at one point too. I'm like, geez, man.
PHILLIP: Yes. Apparently that was his own request, yes.
ROCHA: To stay away from other folks. Here's my advice to him, is make sure you don't tell Donald Trump you're a gay man that dresses like a woman, because Donald Trump may put you back in jail, just FYI. The second thing is I think that he slid under the radar some. I think that when he pops back up, I think he'll get his head chopped off, not literally, but I think that people like this have a pattern, especially in politics. I've worked for a lot of narcissist politicians, no names mentioned, who love themselves. And I think that this is just going to go badly for everybody.
PHILLIP: You know, part of the reason I think that he faced so much legal trouble was just all of the various things that he was accused of doing. I mean, there was fraud, there were campaign finance violations, there were so many different things, and that's not even including the lies.
But here's what Donald Trump said as his rationale for why he decided to do this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about George Santos? He just went away, seven years.
TRUMP: You know -- he was he lied like hell. I mean, I have to tell you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TRUMP: And I didn't know him, but he was 100 percent for Trump. But I didn't -- you know, I didn't -- I might've met him, maybe not. I don't know. But he was a congressman and his vote was solid.
Nobody asked me, but it's interesting. He -- is it seven years?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven years, he just went away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: A solid vote. I mean, if you're Bob Menendez right now, you're probably looking at Joe Biden like where was my pardon or commutation, because I mean, Trump has basically made this just a partisan litmus test. If you have an R next to your name, you'll get pardoned, like the nine other Republican Congress people that he granted clemency to between his first and second term.
ALLISON: So, I spent most -- a significant amount of December, 2023 in the beginning of 2024, talking about George Santos, and I hope tonight is the last night I ever have to talk about him again. That's first. Second, the one thing I want to just say about this is I don't -- whatever. The president pardoned him, or commuted his sentence, but I do think the presidential pardon and commutation serve an important role to fix some of the things that criminal justice reform and legislation hasn't been able to do.
So, what I just want to say is like, we shouldn't conflate issues of the access to the pardon, because I think a lot of people want to say this is why it should be getting rid of this. It serves a really important purpose. Biden commuted a lot of posts. I was a part of the team that was working on commutations under President Obama. And I will say this, in Trump's first term, he actually did commute people that had criminal justice records.
PHILLIP: Yes, the First Step.
ALLISON: Without the First Step but just through commutation.
PHILLIP: But, I mean --
ALLISON: And I just don't want to conflate it.
PHILLIP: I do feel like we are at a point now where it is totally legitimate to ask. I mean, there's nothing we can do about it. It's in the Constitution.
ALLISON: Yes. I'm just hoping that, I hope Trump goes back to the norm.
PHILLIP: But it's legitimate to ask between Biden pardoning, his family members and everything that we've seen pardons used for, it would be better for us as a country, it seems, to have a real process that's fair, that is actually fair to people who are deserving of clemency. But right now we have this kabuki theater with every president regardless of political party.
TROVER: Well, it seems like you're suggesting that we remove that power from the president and give it to somebody else. I'm curious.
PHILLIP: I'm just saying that there are people who have raised why should the president have this power.
TROVER: Well, I mean, look, it is a power that he has. I accept the fact that he has that power.
PHILLIP: I'm not talking -- and this is not specific to Trump, by the way.
TROVER: Yes, no, I get it. I get it, no.
PHILLIP: I'm talking about presidents in general.
TROVER: 100 percent. But, I mean, to me, I take a pretty basic view of that. I mean, somebody has to be the, to me, the final arbiter on some big decisions, there is a process in the Department of Justice usually, but that are -- make recommendations that are made.
PHILLIP: Yes, but it's not being used.
ALLISON: Right.
PHILLIP: Clearly, the process is not being used. The process wasn't used for Joe Biden's -- practically, his entire family.
[22:25:01]
The process was not used for all of the January 6th defendants who just got a writ of clemency from this president. I mean, what process? That process, if it -- I know it exists, but that process has been --
TROVER: It doesn't seem to make sense to me to leave it up to a commission. I mean, he's the president of the United States. He's the chief executive of this country. I mean, to me there has to be a final arbiter on some of these things.
JENNINGS: I agree with Ashley somewhat on this. I just think the idea that a president could right some wrongs, having that power vested in one person. And I do think the process does produce results sometimes, and I also think citizens and other people and members of Congress come forward with ideas, you know, some of the criminal justice things Trump did in the first term. So, ideas do bubble up.
The idea that someone could show mercy on people who deserve it, right wrongs set things straight, I do like the idea that that can happen just like that. Now, does that mean everyone's going to be perfect? No. But the idea that that power sits there I kind of like it to be honest.
PHILLIP: Chuck?
ROCHA: The system was set up because there's a lot of folks in our criminal justice system who have done their time, they've paid their price, and there's an application, a lot of them, even when they get out, we were talking about this in the green room, they can apply to have their record clear where they can get that job, where they're not a felony anymore. They could own a gun again because they've done their time. They've been -- and they could show a judge in this application process that I've become a good person. I'm doing all these things in the community. I learned my lesson. I did do bad back then. I paid my price and now I want to do good, and this is one of the instances, I think, where it should be used in that way.
ALLISON: It's also the -- PHILLIP: I'm not arguing though against clemency. All I'm saying is that the clemency process that is vested in a single person is not only being abused before our very eyes, but it's also, I think, for the people who are so deserving. It actually disadvantages people who have a real claim to clemency.
I mean, there have been a lot of clemency decisions that Trump has made. And one of the big common denominators between many of them is that the people were prosecuted by people who prosecuted him. What kind of decision-making process is that? I mean, that doesn't make any sense.
ALLISON: I think you're making a valid point. And I think the point that Scott and I surprisingly agree on is that it has a purpose. It's like the ultimate opportunity for like earthly redemption almost.
JENNINGS: Yes.
ALLISON: But it is being misused, and I'm not just saying by Trump. I think it has been misused on both sides.
JENNINGS: I think every president has made some questionable decisions on this, but you could probably also look at every president and say they made some great decisions that they probably feel good about. But, you know, it's all on the president. They're the final arbiter.
PHILLIP: There's probably way more people deserving of clemency than get clemency.
JENNINGS: There's no limit.
PHILLIP: I guess George Santos got his lucky ticket today.
Next for us, more breaking news, is the president beating the drum for a war with Venezuela. And what does that mean for America first? We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:32:43]
PHILLIP: Is the America first no-war president itching for a fight with another country?
Tonight, two people are in military custody after surviving a U.S. strike on a suspected drug boat with ties to Venezuela. It's the sixth known strike in Trump's war against drug traffickers, and it follows a major Pentagon shakeup that saw the top admiral in charge of the mission abruptly step down.
Sources tell CNN his resignation was over tensions with his boss, Pete Hegseth. Now, this week, Trump publicly declared he authorized a covert CIA operation inside of Venezuela, all of this culminating into this message that he delivered today to Venezuela's strongman leader, a warning to any kids watching.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He's offered everything. You're right.
You know why? Because he doesn't want to fuck around with the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Well, there's that. But look, I mean, I think a lot of people are asking today, what happened to being anti-globalist?
Eric Erickson writes, "A lot of people who bemoan globalists are pretty quiet today about the president shifting into regime change posture over Venezuela."
TROVER: Well, I don't think that it's impossible to, or against the ethos of the MAGA movement. If you've been handed some of these issues, like from Joe Biden that Donald Trump has, that doesn't put you in violation of the Make America First movement. And certainly, if you're dealing with that stuff coming in, you can't, I mean, just, it's not, I guess my point is that you can't, it's not, no, go ahead, sorry.
PHILLIP: I don't know if this is, like, because it's hard to defend it or what, but I do think that there is a question, Scott. I mean, Trump and a lot of his base, Trump ran in 2016, I was there, against being involved in foreign wars. He just went to the Middle East this spring and said regime change has been a policy that failed in that region.
So why is he seemingly engaging in that same kind of policy now, and then not going to Congress and asking for authorization?
JENNINGS: Legitimate question. I think Venezuela is a different kind of country. It's not really a real country.
It's a narco-terrorist state. In his first term, he unleashed economic sanctions on them. You know, we put a bounty on Maduro.
[22:35:05]
I mean, we did all the things, short of going to war with Venezuela, to stop them from importing drugs into the United States. It did not work. They have continued to be a narco-terrorist state, they continue to flood drugs into the United States, and dangerous people.
And so one of the things about the America First movement and the MAGA movement is in middle America, they believe our government has not taken a hard enough line against people who have put deadly drugs into this country. They promised this, and honestly, I think he's going to have a lot of political support for stopping these narco-terrorists.
PHILLIP: Look, I do think that it's politically convenient to lay at the feet of Venezuela the drug problem that we have in this country, but it also is not aligned with the facts. You know, according to the United States' own, you know, assessments, Mexico-based transnational criminal organizations are primarily responsible for the supply of illicit drugs, including fentanyl, to the U.S. market. Venezuela is not really a player in fentanyl, which is the predominant killer of Americans in terms of drugs.
But what is a problem is that Venezuela is a failed state that is run by a dictator. And if the agenda is to regime change and to get rid of a dictator, I'm sure, listen, I'm sure there are many Americans, Democrat and Republican, who support Maduro going bye-bye. But that should be what Trump says, not blaming it on drug trafficking, which is a relatively minor issue compared to drug trafficking that comes from Mexico.
JENNINGS: Well, how much do you want to accept? I think you're downplaying--
PHILLIP: It's not a how much do you want to accept.
JENNINGS: I think you're downplaying it.
PHILLIP: It's a where is the problem coming from? And it's coming from Mexico.
JENNINGS: I think you're downplaying what they do in Venezuela, A. B --
PHILLIP: I'm not downplaying it. It's just factually less significant than what is happening in Mexico.
JENNINGS: B, I would support military strikes on drug operations in Mexico, to be honest with you, and I think a lot of Americans would as well.
PHILLIP: My bigger point, Scott, is that this doesn't seem to really be about the drugs. I think it's about Maduro. And if it's about Maduro, don't you think Americans ought to know?
JENNINGS: They're one and the same. He is a drug lord. I mean --
PHILLIP: Don't you think Americans ought to know that if that's the agenda, regime change, that that's what they're doing?
ROCHA: The U.S. Senate does, and it's so much so that they had a vote today that was voted down with Democrats and Republicans trying to say you should not send ground forces into Venezuela. Like, they think, the U.S. Senate, not Chuck Roach and not middle America, but the U.S. Senate had that vote.
PHILLIP: Yes.
ROCHA: Because they're trying to stop it from--
PHILLIP: A bipartisan one, including Rand Paul that signed on.
TROVER: They are a major proponent of moving cocaine into this country, and fentanyl. They are a major --
PHILLIP: They're not a major driver of fentanyl, and fentanyl is what is killing Americans.
TROVER: They are a major driver of drugs into this country. That's not debatable, that they're pushing drugs into this country.
PHILLIP: Fentanyl is what is killing Americans in droves. I'm talking about the seriousness of the problem. Fentanyl is killing Americans at extraordinary numbers, and they're not a major player in the fentanyl trafficking.
ALLISON: I think there's a couple issues happening right here. I think we can all agree. We have a drug problem in America, and that we wanted to stop.
I think the question is, military strikes, is that the best way to do it? And if it is, does it need some authorization by Congress? And to bring it back to the first session, I think that could be potentially an issue why some of these people are going out tomorrow, because it feels like the President is doing an overreach. It's not that trying to stop fentanyl, trying to stop cocaine from coming into this country isn't something that probably we all can unify around.
It's about the overreach of this administration, and I think why you are doing something matters, and it feels like there's a little throw- the-rock-hide-your-hand behind your back here.
TROVER: We have spent zillions of dollars trying to stop the drug trade in this country. The war on drugs has been going on for decades in this country, and what has happened? We have it pouring in over time. A family who's lost someone to drug overdose, are they really that upset that a drug narco--
PHILLIP: Okay, let me just play, I just want to play this because I think it's interesting to kind of hear Trump in his own words talking about globalists that he's argued that he hated so much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The entire globalist concept must be rejected completely and totally, and it must be immediate. The future does not belong to globalists.
For decades you watched as one globalist politician after the next sold you out.
The globalists have been wrong about everything.
The big globalists have been ripping off the United States.
We're going to get the warmongers and the globalists out of our government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Does that even have meaning anymore? Did it ever? I don't know. ROCHA: I don't think so. You know, I've ran a lot of campaigns against
Donald Trump, but to my Republican friend's points, he's not talking about it in the way now that he did then, and he's wrapping this thing in drugs and narcos, which anybody would say, no, we don't want drugs.
We don't care if narcos get killed. Even Democrats don't care, as long as there's some kind of process and not innocent people getting killed. But to your point, he sounds just like a globalist.
PHILLIP: What are we going to do with those guys that we captured? What laws apply to them? Where are they going?
[22:40:09]
JENNINGS: I'll be honest with you. I don't know, and I'm not sure that I care all that much. I'll tell you something else about Venezuela.
There's an opposition party there. There are people that could probably take over Venezuela and not be a major narco-terrorist state.
You probably wouldn't let them take to the streets and protest.
They're in our own, I wouldn't if I were them, with Maduro in charge. That's what we're doing here. They're in our own hemisphere.
They're sending drugs.
PHILLIP: It sounds like you're making a globalist argument, Scott. We know that there are oppositions.
JENNINGS: I have no opposition to using the U.S. military to stopping terrorists from putting substances in our country that kill our citizens. If it was Al-Qaeda, I'd say the same thing.
PHILLIP: We know that there's opposition in Venezuela, and she just won the Nobel Peace Prize this year. And look, that's a fight that I think, again, has a lot of bipartisan support.
But to Ashley's point, I mean, are they hiding the ball here about what they really want to do? That's really the question.
And I think that a lot of people ought to be asking that, since they voted against presidents who would engage the United States in more foreign wars.
TROVER: It's not in Donald Trump's nature to hide the ball. If he's going to do something, he tells the American public what he's going to do. He does a million press conferences a week, so I take him at his word for where he is right now.
But it's not against the MAGA movement to step in and say, these issues affect our country. That doesn't make him a globalist. If we need to get a peace deal and get hostages back, that doesn't make him a globalist.
PHILLIP: I just think you could argue that it does, according to their own definition, make you a globalist. Everything affects us. That's been the argument.
JENNINGS: Trump is no isolationist. He never has been. He's always been willing to engage if he thought it was in America's best interest.
With a drug state like this, I think it might be.
PHILLIP: All right. Next for us, cockroaches and black swans. CEOs are seeing economic warning signs ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Tonight more and more CEOs are testing new metaphors to raise alarm on the economy. Wall Street's Jamie Dimon is warning of cockroaches in the economy after some bankruptcies raising concerns of a credit crisis. Now, quote, when you see one cockroach, there are probably more.
Another headline tonight, CNBC's small business reports that they are being crushed by Trump's tariffs. And a CNN report finds deportations are hurting local economies. One agriculture CEO says the labor shortage could be a black swan event for Trump.
A lot of things moving in the economy. And since you have some roosters on your shirt, I'm going to go to you first.
ROCHA: This is a smart move.
PHILLIP: Because I do think the immigration piece of this is significant, right, that it's not just people who are illegal who are agricultural workers, but, you know, there are reports of people who have legal status who are reluctant to show up to work.
The inability to get people visas that they need in order to work in certain industries. People who had legal status having their visas revoked. All of that is feeding into some of this stress of the economy.
ROCHA: It's part of the economy that makes the whole country go around every day, not just the agriculture, which is a huge piece of feeding all of us. Now, we're going to have this wonderful food here in a little bit, but it's also like the construction trades. My brother-in- law builds apartments in Florida and he can't hardly keep a crew there anymore.
Not that they were all undocumented, but lots of folks are just scared. They have some documentation, but they're afraid they'll just get picked up. But there's another piece of this, which is the cost of it.
You know, I keep saying I was home this weekend and I took my wife back to East Texas where I am from and folks were talking about the price of a roll of ground beef. Now, for you poor people, ground beef comes in a roll when it's really poor and it costs a lot of money.
And one of the biggest places we get beef from these days is not the U.S. It's Argentina and Brazil. And we just gave Argentina $20 billion. These are the things that don't match up in my cockroach world.
PHILLIP: Yes, and food prices have been one of the things that have gone up the most in terms of inflation not coming down. Eggs up year over year, coffee, sliced bacon, whole milk, chicken, tomatoes. I mean, overall --
ROCHA: Beer and tobacco. Let's talk about something important. Beer and tobacco.
PHILLIP: I mean, you name it. You name it.
But I mean, there's a lot going on in the economy. Some of it has to do with Trump's policy, some of it doesn't. Some of it has to do with just the impending A.I. coming.
But Trump's policies seem to be sticking the economy in the gut at the very moment when maybe stability might be the most important thing.
JENNINGS: Yes, I think you could look at some of his policies and say they've worked in some fronts. I mean, there's a lot of manufacturing jobs that have come back to the United States. Back home in Kentucky, G.E. brought home I think a thousand jobs and laid the credit directly to President Trump's tariff policy.
I think on the agriculture piece, while he works out the situation with China, there has been disruption to some row crop farmers. This immigration piece is interesting because part of the President's base wants to deport everybody. And part of the President's base, which does include farmers, and he loves farmers and they love him, they want some accommodation made.
And I think he's hearing it from both sides. So I do think there's a push and pull on this inside the President's own base.
PHILLIP: He was also asked about this China situation by Maria Bartiromo. Let me play what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA BARTORIMO, "SUNDAY MORNING FUTURES" ANCHOR: Put that 100 percent tariff on top of what's in place already, put a 157 percent tariff on China. Can that stand? What is that going to do to the economy?
[22:50:01]
TRUMP: It's not sustainable, but that's what the number is. It's probably not, you know, it could stand, but they forced me to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: There's just a lot of randomness happening here. I mean, he seems to acknowledge it right there.
ALLISON: I'll be honest, this is not an issue where I want to be, and I told you so at this moment. Because the reality is, people are really hurting. And I would just give some advice to my Republican friends, is that a year ago, Democrats did not listen to people saying, I am struggling to make ends meet, and we kept pushing on and being like, eh, we can see it through.
People in the Midwest, on the East Coast, are struggling economically, and it could fall at the feet of the Republicans.
PHILLIP: A quick word.
TROVER: Yes, I mean, look, I mean, the President acknowledges it, I mean, but this is the battle of our lifetime. We are locked. China is our number one foe, and it is a battle that we have to have.
I mean, they were talking about getting approval for their rare earth minerals, anybody who touched it. I mean, this is a war we have to win, and we have no choice.
PHILLIP: Coming up, don't miss what Chef Liza has been whipping up back there together, and perhaps some nightcaps. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: I am actually inside the Food Network test kitchen for a change at station one, ahead of the CNN original series, "Tony Shalhoub Breaking Bread." I'm here with Tony Shalhoub himself and Chef Camari Mick.
What are we making today?
CHEF CAMARI MICK, EXECUTIVE PASTRY CHEF, THE MUSKET ROOM: So we're going to be making sourdough discard chocolate chip cookies. This is going to add a little bit more funk to your chocolate chip cookie, a little bit more acid to balance out.
PHILLIP: She means funk in a good way, not a bad way.
MICK: Like James Funk.
PHILLIP: Right, exactly.
MICK: So we're going to start with some melted butter. Tony, the honors, please.
TONY SHALHOUB, HOST, "TONY SHALHOUB BREAKING BREAD": Yes, sure.
MICK: Brown sugar and white sugar. We do both sugars because it adds to the crispiness and the balance of the cookie, and you'll see that we're actually using two different flours as well.
PHILLIP: So we have regular flour. Is this the regular flour? And then what's this one?
MICK: We have bread flour.
PHILLIP: Tony, you did so much of this, or some of this show with your family, but you also come from a very large family.
SHALHOUB: Yes, I'm one of ten, I'm the second youngest of ten children. A lot of really good foodies in that group, certainly a lot of good eaters in that group.
PHILLIP: So Camari, you're doing all the wet ingredients.
MICK: All the wet ingredients.
PHILLIP: But the egg is last.
MICK: The egg is supposed to be last because you can actually start to over beat your cookie after the egg part. So we want to make sure everything starts to get mixed in before we add our egg.
PHILLIP: So what did you bake in your family?
SHALHOUB: Yes, always flatbread. There was a Lebanese thing called fataya, which is meat or spinach filled, three-corner kind of pastry thing. That was always great.
PHILLIP: I just saw you put two different types of chocolates in there. What are those?
MICK: So this is a 70 percent chocolate and a caramelized white chocolate. Because we're on that road of balance. We have two different sugars, two different flours, and now we have two different flavors of chocolate.
One is a little bit more sweet, one is a little bit more depth. So we want that whole balance in this chocolate chip cookie.
PHILLIP: I noticed that you stopped the mixer. Is it because you can actually over mix chocolate chip cookies?
MICK: You can make a tough cookie, believe it or not.
PHILLIP: So I think Tony, you've got to stop now.
SHALHOUB: I'm done. You usually seem to chill it before making this.
MICK: So before baking.
PHILLIP: Do you scoop it? You scoop it and then you chill it?
SHALHOUB: Scoop it, chill it, and then bake it.
MICK: Correct.
SHALHOUB: Okay.
MICK: We're going to chill these for about 25 minutes and then we're going to bake them at 330 degrees Fahrenheit for about 15 to 18 minutes.
PHILLIP: Alright.
MICK: Oh, my gosh. Look at these nice puddles of chocolate.
PHILLIP: They are perfect.
MICK: I am so excited, but I have some that are cool for us.
PHILLIP: A little gooey in the middle too. These are extraordinary.
MICK: Thank you.
PHILLIP: I mean, this is like a next level cookie.
SHALHOUB: Yes, it is.
MICK: Yes. And you can do this with any recipe that you have. Just add a little bit of discard to it and it'll be successful.
SHALHOUB: Thank you, Abby.
PHILLIP: This was delicious.
MICK: Cheers.
SHALHOUB: I appreciate it.
PHILLIP: Cheers.
They were delicious.
You can see Tony explore French classics on a new episode of CNN Original Series "Breaking Bread" Sunday at 9 p.m. right here on CNN.
But before we go, Chef Liza Zaneski is here. She's a supervising culinary producer at the Food Network. And she's going to tell us about these plates that we've been devouring while you've been watching T.V.
Chef, what are we eating?
CHEF LIZA ZANESKI, SUPERVISING CULINARY PRODUCER, FOOD NETWORK: So we're going Eastern European tonight.
This is Borscht, which is probably well known as a beet soup. There's a lot of different variations of this. In my recipe, I make it with short ribs and I roast the beets.
This recipe is very special to me. I was born in St. Petersburg, Russia, and I moved here when I was 14, was raised by my great-grandma and my mom. My great-grandma used to make borscht for me a lot.
So tonight I just wanted you guys to enjoy a taste of my childhood.
PHILLIP: It's so warm and cozy.
ZANESKI: It's meaty and hearty.
PHILLIP: Yes, I love it. And I also think, I mean, if you are a meat eater, don't skip the beef short rib, okay?
ZANESKI: No, don't.
PHILLIP: Don't do it. All right.
[23:00:03]
It's so good. But if you're a vegetarian, it's also great for that too.
MICK: Yes.
PHILLIP: And if you don't like beets, you got to check this out because this will change your mind.
ALLISON: It's not beet forward.
PHILLIP: It's not beet forward. That's true.
JENNINGS: But it is red.
PHILLIP: It is.
JENNINGS: It's like the Louisville Cardinals who beat Miami while we were starting out here tonight.
PHILLIP: All right. You can scan the Q.R. code to get this classic Russian Borscht recipe.
Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." Catch our roundtable "Table for Five" tomorrow morning, 10 a.m. Eastern, right here on CNN. "Laura Coates Live" is right now.
