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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Flips, Urges Republicans To Vote To Release Epstein Files; MAGA Feud Grows As Trump Fights With Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA); Trump Defends Carlson After His Podcast With Fuentes; North Carolina Being Targeted by ICE Raids, 130 Arrested And 44 With Criminal Records; Federal Judge Slams The Missteps On The James Comey Case. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 17, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, on the eve of the Epstein vote, Donald Trump sees the writing on the wall and reverses his threats against Republicans.
Plus, the MAGA civil war takes a new turn as the president defends Tucker Carlson for giving a Holocaust denier a platform.
Also, from cars and construction sites and bakeries, ICE takes its chaotic crackdown to Carolina.
And did Trump's lawyer botch the DOJ's case against James Comey? A federal judge issues a blistering opinion, saying their handling of the case has profound investigative missteps and may undermine the integrity of the grand jury.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Cornel West, Batya Ungar-Sargon and Ana Navarro.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, quote, release the Epstein files. No, it's not just House Democrats saying that. Now, it's apparently Donald Trump too. In a stunning reversal, President Trump is telling Republicans to vote to release the files. Why? Well, because, quote, we have nothing to hide, he says. He still calls it a Democrat hoax and says that the Oversight Committee can have whatever they are legally entitled to because he doesn't care. He just wants to focus on the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: So, I'm for any -- I don't -- they can do whatever they want.
REPORTER: You would sign it if it comes to your desk?
TRUMP: We'll give them everything. Sure, I would. Let the Senate look at it. Let anybody look at it, but don't talk about it too much because, honestly, I don't want to take it away from us. It's really a Democrat problem. The Democrats were Epstein's friends, all of them, and it's a hoax. The whole thing is a hoax. And I don't want to take it away from, really, the greatness of what the Republican Party has accomplished over the last period of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So maybe the change of tune is because Trump saw the writing on the wall on this. Republican Thomas Massie has been leading the charge for this vote, and he tells CNN that support is growing and that he is as skeptical about Trump's about-face there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): Well, he got tired of us winning and he decided to join us. Look, they could have done this four months ago. And instead they fought us every bit of the way.
But we're, you know, a little bit suspicious of this sudden turn of events. So, we'll keep an eye on things. We're worried that maybe they'll try to muck it up in the Senate.
I think it's going to be a very big vote. I think we'll get at least a veto-proof majority.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, before we get started, I want to mention that Scott Jennings has a new book out. It's called, A Revolution of Common Sense, How Donald Trump. Stormed Washington and Fought for Western Civilization. It comes out tomorrow. You see it there, everyone pick it up.
On the Thomas Massie of it all, he's suspicious and I don't blame him because Trump didn't want the Epstein files released, and he's sort of halfheartedly saying, well, just release them all while also saying, we'll only investigate the Democrats in all of this.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I am tired of this conversation being about Republicans and Democrats, because, to me, it's just so much about right and wrong and the ways that we as a country, as a society, our institutions have failed these victims. I think it's got to be very hurtful for those victims to hear the president of the United States refer to their plight as a hoax. I urge people watching to go and look for this PSA that some of those victims put out today.
PHILLIP: We do have it, and we can play -- let me just play a little bit of that --
NAVARRO: They're holding pictures of themselves.
PHILLIP: Let's play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was 14 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was 16 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was 16.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 17.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 14 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I met Jeffrey Epstein.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's time to bring the secrets out of the shadows. It's time to shine a light into the darkness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:05:00]
NAVARRO: So, that's very much not a hoax. It's very real. It has ruined the lives and scarred those women for the rest of their lives. You know, I think collectively, we've got to stop fighting about this being Democrat or Republican. This was a bunch of rich men who felt entitled to do whatever the hell they wanted and thought they could get away with it, and they almost did.
But for the Me Too movement in 2017 and but for the Miami Herald expose by Julie K. Brown, the truth is shamefully that Jeffrey Epstein was well on his way to being accepted and rehabbed and be back in respectable society. And so these women deserve transparency. They deserve closure. I do think tomorrow's vote's going to be huge.
I have called upon and texted some Republicans that I know asking them to vote yes. And they have all told me these are all people who usually vote with Trump 100 percent, they've all told me they are voting yes. So, I do think it's going to send a very strong message.
PHILLIP: Ana makes a really important point. You know, why is it that Trump, if he says whatever, I mean, does he have something to hide? I don't know. No one knows. But putting that all aside, why can't he see this for what it is, which is a very real thing, not a hoax, with real victims, and with a lot of people potentially involved in something, none of whom have been held accountable? SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the hoax is Democrats and others who have gone on television and either implied or worse that he had something to do with it. There's not a shred of evidence that he had anything to do with it, but that's what they want people to believe. That's the narrative that they are trying to get out there.
That's the hoax. He's never said what happened to them as a hoax. In fact, there seems to be some shards of evidence in here that Trump may have been one of the people that turned in Jeffrey Epstein, which is why Epstein, according to some of the documents, apparently hated Donald Trump. And so the hoax is not that it happened. The hoax is what people are trying to imply or worse --
PHILLIP: You're citing the documents. And, look, I don't -- the truth is I'm kind of where Ana is on this. I don't know that we know anything about Trump's involvement or lack thereof, but I do know that he is named in these documents. I do know that he is named in a way that is -- that raises questions and that is something that is real. Does it mean that he actually did something wrong? That we don't know.
But if Trump has nothing to hide and he's totally entitled to say that, to believe that, he should be clamoring for these documents for the full context to be released, but he's not doing that.
JENNINGS: So, you believe after ten years of this, of him being on the public stage, that if there was something to know, we wouldn't know it by now? Look, the issue is --
PHILLIP: I mean, you could make that argument about every single person who's implicated in these documents.
JENNINGS: Okay?
PHILLIP: You cannot -- that is not a legitimate argument.
JENNINGS: And you just raised the key issue.
PHILLIP: Every single person who may or may not be implicated, the argument is if there was something to know, we would've known it. If there was something to know, yes, I mean, it's in the documents. And we don't know about any -- not just Trump, anybody.
JENNINGS: So, you just know the key issue. You used the word, implicated. If someone's name appears in these documents, it doesn't necessarily mean they did anything wrong, but I'm sure that is going to lead people to say, oh, they've been implicated. And so we'll see what comes out. I have no expectations that the president did something wrong.
NAVARRO: Scott, can I tell you, they may not have done something criminal. Just the fact that they are having email exchanges does not mean that they did something criminal.
JENNINGS: Like Larry Summers or Stacey Plaskett, the fact that they're having exchanges with Epstein. NAVARRO: Except that may not be criminal. I do think it is wrong. And the reason I think it's wrong is because by the time that the emails that we are seeing in this trove that was released are from 2019 and 2018 and 2016. That is way after Epstein had served 13 months in that sweetheart deal in Florida, after he had served one year under house arrest, after he had registered as a sex offender.
JENNINGS: Agreed.
PHILLIP: And so these people, a lot of them who are folks that are admired by our society, famous, rich, powerful, in very elite circles in Palm Beach and in New York, were conversing with him and communicating with him and treating him. I mean, people like Deepak Chopra --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: Does that apply to Stacey Plaskett, a member of Congress?
NAVARRO: It applies to that. Did you just hear me say --
JENNINGS: Yes, she should resign? Should she resign?
NAVARRO: There you go again.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I think it's very --
JENNINGS: She was being programmed by him after the moment you said we all knew.
PHILLIP: It's very hypocritical for you to call out the names of only the Democrats, but not apply the very same logic to everyone --
JENNINGS: What Republican was he programming?
PHILLIP: Listen, hold on. You're basically saying if you're named in these documents, I guess, you're saying that they should be condemned. Ana's basically saying, yes, let it all out, but you are the only one who's making a carve out for one person, and that's Donald Trump.
JENNINGS: There's no evidence that he had any contact with Epstein after he excommunicated him.
[22:10:00]
But we do have evidence that he was programming Democrat members of Congress. Why isn't that a big deal?
PHILLIP: I guess the point is we just don't know.
JENNINGS: We do know that. We absolutely know he was programming Plaskett.
PHILLIP: I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about what the part -- what we don't know about the Trump bit of it. That's all I'm saying.
CORNEL WEST (I), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No. I mean, the sad thing is Sister Ana's point about the waiting gravity toss of what is right and what is wrong. So, it easily gets erased and eliminated because integrity, honesty, and decency gets pushed aside and it becomes just a partisan matter of Democrats versus Republicans.
We know that gangsterism is promiscuous. It will lie with Democrats, Republicans, independent, leftist, center, right, Christian, Jews, Catholics, Muslims. It's a human thing. And we have so many layers of corruption now, so many levels of outright lives that the issues of what is right and what is wrong has no footing at all.
Now, you know it. I know it. Look, when you're talking about common sense, that's Thomas Paine, brother. You invoke Thomas Paine.
(CROSSTALKS)
WEST: And he's a foe of tyrants, a foe of autocrats and a foe of --
PHILLIP: Batya, why is Trump flip-flopping on this, on whether or not he would support the vote and the release of the documents?
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, ANCHOR AND HOST, BATYA! ON NEWSNATION: So, first of all, I think some documents that named him, that came out last week actually, he came off looking pretty good. Like he didn't like how Jeffrey Epstein was behaving and he cut off ties with him. I'm sure that played a role --
PHILLIP: I don't think that's what the document said. The document said that Jeffrey Epstein didn't like Trump, which we know, but they also had a falling out much earlier over essentially real estate in Florida. That's what we do know.
UNGAR-SARGON: Well, it's unclear what it was exactly over, but he did learn that Jeffrey Epstein really didn't like him, and that's what sort of the trend was in those documents.
I think also, you know, Trump is very good at reading his base. And I have to say, I think there's a real divide here between the voter base then the online content creator of the -- creators of the right. Those people are obsessed with Jeffrey Epstein, and a lot of Republican lawmakers are very much enthralled to this online energy, but the actual voting base, I think they really don't care about that.
They care about immigration and they care about affordability. And I think Trump felt that this is now, we're going to waste a whole week talking about this thing that is -- you're right. It's important to talk about it. Justice for the victims, of course, is extremely important, but a lot of people get caught up in that dragnet.
Alan Dershowitz is a perfect example. He is a person who was named by one of the victims and she had to recant, but he never got his reputation back. And so I think the question is how many Jeffrey Epsteins are in there, how many Larry Summers --
PHILLIP: Hold on. We do have to hit pause there.
NAVARRO: There's three Republican women, Nancy Mace, Lauren Boebert. Marjorie Taylor Greene. I'm not a fan of any of them. However, those women, I think, are not looking at this through a political prism. I think they're looking at this as women because we all know that before Me Too, a lot of people thought it was okay to sexually harass women and to sexually abuse women, particularly if you were rich and empowered and entitled in this country and get away with it. It's not just Jeffrey Epstein. There's a bunch of Jeffrey Epsteins and rich men. That's what he was coddling to.
And I'll tell you another person that I give a lot of credit to, Howard Lutnick, the current secretary of commerce, who was his next door neighbor, Jeffrey Epstein, and went to his house once and said I didn't have to go there again. Go listen to the podcast people that he did on this. He went there once. He saw a massage table surrounded by candles in the living room, and he got so creeped out, he never set foot there again.
PHILLIP: We got to leave it there. And, Batya, your comments are a perfect segue for what we're going to talk about next. President Trump's breakup with Marjorie Taylor Greene has gotten ugly and she says that she's getting death threats as a result of it. He says he doubts it.
Plus, Trump's immigration crackdown hits Charlotte, and the governor says that it is stoking more fear than it is alleviating.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I will fight and I will die for this nation. And now these crazy, racist people are doing this to us, man. They're not chasing criminals. They're chasing bakers like me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, MAGA world appears to be fraying and Trump is struggling to keep it all together. From the Epstein files to the H1B visa saga and the economy, and also Israel, his recent comments on a number of issues has split the party. Trump has tried to toe the line without upsetting a lot of people in the base who remind -- and he's reminding them who's boss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: MAGA was my idea. MAGA was nobody else's idea. I know what MAGA wants better than anybody else. And MAGA wants to see our country thrive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: One person not straddling that line is Ted Cruz, who has gone all out and calling out Tucker Carlson for his recent podcast with self-described Nazi and Holocaust denier Nick Fuentes. That podcast has been one of the key things that's divided Republicans of late with some of them coming forward to defend Carlson under free speech grounds and others accusing him of elevating an anti-Semitic corner of the party.
President Trump weighed in on this this weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We've had some great interviews with Tucker Carlson, but you can't tell him who to interview. I mean, if he wants to interview Nick Fuentes, I don't know much about him, but if he wants to do it, get the word out, let him -- you know, people have to decide. Ultimately, people have to decide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Fuentes saw that clip and took a victory lap. He posted on X, thank you, Mr. President.
Now, there's growing speculation that Ted Cruz is actually teeing up another run for president. He threw some cold water on the speculation today, but many of you Cruz's tiff with Carlson as a jab at Vice President J.D. Vance, a close ally of Carlson's and someone who's seen as the frontrunner of the Republican ticket in 2028.
And, Scott, as you have spent time with Trump and now written a book about his politics, he is not going to be the person to lead the future of the Republican Party in 2028. And the succession debate is happening right now, and there are also these cracks showing up about what actually do MAGA people believe. Are they pro H1Bs, against it? Are they for, quote/unquote, free speech and what Tucker's doing or not? Where does Trump come down on that?
JENNINGS: Well, there's a lot of issues you raised in the segment here. I did see the president today actually, and we discussed the Marjorie Taylor Greene issue a little bit. You know, what happened with her is very simple. She was wanting to run statewide in Georgia. He privately and discreetly sent her a copy of a poll that he had seen, and she was way down. It was not going to work out.
And ever since that moment -- he did her a favor actually by saving her from a humiliation. But ever since that moment, she's opposed him on bombing the Houthis rebels, on bombing Iran, she's opposed him on deportation, she's gone on, you know, T.V. shows and attacked him, and so because he sort of betrayed her in her mind on that political moment, I think he did her a favor. She's become an opponent.
On this other stuff, look --
PHILLIP: She's calling him to release the Epstein files.
JENNINGS: Okay. And they're doing it. PHILLIP: He hates that. But you can't omit that because that's the reason that he's really gone, you know, the full throttle against her.
JENNINGS: On the other issues though, I saw his comments about Fuentes and, I mean, my reaction to it was maybe he's wanting people to see how crazy and vile this is. This is the most pro-Israel, pro-Jewish administration we've ever had, period. You cannot argue it otherwise. The president knows who our ally is. It's Israel. And the president has supported Israel and the president has been supportive of Jewish Americans and Jewish people around the world. You cannot argue otherwise. So --
PHILLIP: He's had Nick Fuentes at Mar-a-Lago for dinner.
JENNINGS: Yes. And he didn't know about it. You know, somebody brought him to dinner. But he obviously is not --
PHILLIP: He had the dinner with --
JENNINGS: He's not aligned with -- but he didn't know the guy. He's not aligned with the guy.
PHILLIP: And didn't denounce him afterwards.
JENNINGS: This is the most pro-Israel, pro-Jewish administration --
NAVARRO: Kanye brought him to dinner, another pro-Israel.
JENNINGS: Period.
PHILLIP: Yes, and it doesn't rhyme. I don't know that the other guest that was invited, Kanye is much better.
JENNINGS: And Donald Trump has never done anything except support Israel and support the Jewish people, and that's his administration's policy.
PHILLIP: I don't think, just to be clear, Nick Fuentes' problem is not just that he's anti-Israel, he's also a vile bigot as well, and I think that is also problematic. It's not just about that one issue.
WEST: Well, first, Brother Scott, pro-Israel and pro-Jewish are not the same things. There's a whole host of Jewish brothers and sisters who come out of a rich, prophetic Judaic tradition that's critical of Israeli government and critical of Israeli policy. So, don't fuse all those together as if Israel speaks for all Jews. That's just not true. Any community has various voices, prophetic voices, centrist voices, priestly voices. So, to say that pro-Israel is pro-Jewish is already misleading.
JENNINGS: That's fine. That's fine.
WEST: Do you agree with that?
JENNINGS: That's fine, but I'm simply --
WEST: Do you agree? Just say, yes.
JENNINGS: I'm simply arguing that the president has supported our ally. They're our ally. He has supported our ally. Whether you like the government or not --
PHILLIP: But, you knokw, Batya, brought this up a little bit because you were talking about kind of the online voices versus the real voters. And maybe it is true that Trump is in tune with the real voices but it seems like the future of who's going to lead the Republican Party is in part being sorted out by some of these online voices.
UNGAR-SARGON: It's my view, and I have not seen any counter evidence to this, that the less online campaign always wins. And what we're seeing right now is a big media turf war for conservative viewers.
Now, a lot of this has to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination. Because what he was doing, we only realize now he was able to both talk to politicians and to donors and to the online comment section, if you will, and to the online influencers and hold all of them together in a coalition. Now, there is a turf war.
And the problem is is that a lot of that turf is not American, it's not Republicans, it's not conservatives, and it's not voters.
PHILLIP: What is it?
UNGAR-SARGON: It's -- I mean, the whole world has access to the internet, right?
PHILLIP: So, who do you think is, has the best non-online, you know, feel for the party right now?
UNGAR-SARGON: Well, I will tell you, there are very few Republican politicians who I have seen who have not come out against Nick Fuentes. Now, the ones who haven't are notable, right?
PHILLIP: Like J.D. Vance.
UNGAR-SARGON: Like J.D. Vance.
PHILLIP: Yes, that's very, very notable.
UNGAR-SARGON: But, again, which brings me back to how online are you, right?
[22:25:03]
Do you feel that you cannot upset the Groypers, or are you going to say, this is not what it means to be a conservative? And I think that is going to be a big fight in 2028.
PHILLIP: I think those are all super interesting and important points. And it's notable where -- you know, Vance is staking out the other side of that argument. NAVARRO: Well, but I also think that that's part of what's happening, right? You've got a lot of talk about J.D. Vance angling to be the successor. You've got a lot of talk about Marco Rubio angling to be the successor, and I don't think Ted Cruz wants to be left out of it. He's run for it before. Obviously, that ambition is not gone.
I think this weekend was for Trump a -- what we saw the consequences of the elections in the two weeks ago, which were a resounding rejection of Republicans and Trumpism, in my opinion. And I think that's why so many Republicans were willing to buck him on this Epstein vote. I think it's why this weekend he went back on some of the tariffs, particularly on food because he's hearing the message on people not affording groceries. I think it's why this weekend he's also made a turn, I'm having a hard time following it, on Venezuela and whether he's going to bomb them or negotiate with them. You know, I can't figure it out.
And so I think he is coming to terms with the fact that it's the beginning of lame duck season, and there's all of these younguns already angling to see who's going -- whose turn is going to be next. And, you know, Ted Cruz has left Cancun and Porto Vallarta long enough to put himself in the mix.
PHILLIP: Dare I say, this is the beginning of the run for 2028. I don't know.
Next for us, a new city on the edge tonight, as ICE agents swarm Charlotte, North Carolina. We're seeing small businesses closing after school programs canceled. One raid happening as workers decorate a Christmas tree. But how many taken into custody are actually criminals? We'll tell you when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Fear and chaos are erupting on the streets of Charlotte, North Carolina tonight, the latest target of President Trump's immigration crackdown.
(VIDEO PLAYING)
Federal agents fanned out across the city over the weekend, smashing this window of a truck belonging to a Honduran immigrant. They claim he wasn't complying with demands, but the man says he's a U.S. citizen with real I.D. The officers eventually did let him go.
And this new video shows ICE approaching two landscapers hired to put Christmas lights on a tree. Agents left after the homeowner confronted them.
Now, this surveillance footage, at least 10 people ran from a laundromat after witnesses say ICE chased them through the back door. DHS says that it arrested 130 people in the operation, and residents are trying to understand why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID REBOLLOSO, LAUNDROMAT OWNER: Nobody's coming out of their apartments, you know? People are calling me and asking if, if I can go pick up their laundry for them, you know, because they're afraid to leave their homes.
MANUEL "MANOLO" BETANCUR, OWNER, MANOLO'S BAKERY: I will fight and I will die for this nation, and now these crazy racist people are doing this to us, man. They're not chasing criminals, they're chasing bakers like me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, in Charlotte, like in Chicago, we're seeing a lot of arrests and a relatively small portion of them actually people who are the criminals that they say to be seeking. 44 of those 130 were criminals, according to DHS. That's 30 percent. So, the vast majority not.
CORNEL WEST (I), FORMER 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE AND POLITICAL ACTIVIST: I actually am curious how this is going to play in a place like Charlotte. You know, the sad thing is that North Carolina's John Coltrane country, A Love Supreme. And to see the terrorizing and traumatizing the precious brown and Latino brothers and sisters is just heartbreaking.
And then one out of three turn out to be the persons who they're really going after, which means 70 percent are innocent human beings. This is something where they have a massive indictment and condemnation on moral grounds, on religious grounds, on spiritual grounds, and to reduce it simply, again, to just politics in a truncated narrow way means we won't focus on the innocent ones who are being violated.
PHILLIP: I'm going to play this clip. This is Greg Bovino, he is talking today about their strategy in going after immigrants. And as you can see in some of these videos, I mean, they're in places where there are people of Hispanic descent, and whether or not they actually are illegal immigrants or not, they're being picked up, and here's why according to Bovino.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREG BOVINO, CHIEF BORDER PATROL AGENT, EL CENTRO SECTOR: What we're finding is child rapists in big box stores looking to go into people's homes or hang those Christmas lights like we see in this video here.
How do you know who these people are? Do they have a criminal record maybe in their home country? Who are these people?
Too many times, we're finding that some very disreputable individuals are seeking work in people's homes, in their gardens, and otherwise, we don't want those people in society.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:35:00]
PHILLIP: Two-thirds of the people just over the last couple of days have not had a criminal record at all. I don't understand how you can justify just randomly sweeping people up and then saying, "Well, maybe we might find one person who has an illegal record and then we're going to paint them all with the same brush."
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, ANCHOR AND HOST OF "BATYA" ON NEWSNATION: When Donald Trump was campaigning, he said, "When we get elected, we're going to conduct the largest deportation campaign in American history." He did not say the worst of the worst.
PHILLIP: Yes, he did.
UNGAR-SARGON: And the truth is, Abby --
PHILLIP: He did also say the worst of the worst.
UNGAR-SARGON: -- every illegal immigrant in America is either working, in which case they are driving down the wages in an industry because their employers can pay them less, or they are living off the government, in which case American taxpayers are paying for them to live here illegally. Both of those are unacceptable, which is why in every single poll that's come out in the last year, a majority of Americans support not deporting the worst of the worst, but deporting every single illegal migrant including a "New York Times" poll from a few weeks ago which found 51 percent of Americans --
PHILLIP: Yes, but that's actually exactly the poll I was going to bring up.
UNGAR-SARGON: Every single illegal --
PHILLIP: You're making it sound like it is a huge majority. 51 percent, that is a bare majority, and a vast-- and also, many polls show that a vast majority of Americans actually do want Trump to target the worst of the worst. But what about the people like that man in the video who are not here illegally at all?
He has legal status. There, there have been many examples of that. They are also being picked up indiscriminately, having their car windows shattered by immigration officials.
Why? Because they look like they are illegal?
UNGAR-SARGON: Well according to the immigration officials, he did not listen to their instructions and he was released an hour later, so, I mean--
PHILLIP: So, but why? What is? He was --
UNGAR-SARGON: You're supposed to listen to law enforcement.
PHILLIP: According to him, he's showing them his real I.D., which is generally an indication --
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, so real I.D. doesn't matter?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SR. POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: If you have to have Illegal immigrants get IDs in this country all the time. Batya's right. Batya's right.
PHILLIP: No, Scott. Real I.D.s, you cannot get a real I.D. unless you have documentation of your civil legal status.
JENNINGS: How did they know it was his? Here's the bottom line, Batya's right.
PHILLIP: A real I.D., Scott?
JENNINGS: Of course, Batya's right.
PHILLIP: So, why not just, hold on --
JENNINGS: If the cops come to your car --
PHILLIP: So, why not just look at the real I.D. and determine whether or not it actually belongs to him as opposed to --
JENNINGS: Abby.
PHILLIP: -- shattering his window and arresting him? It's a simple question, Scott.
JENNINGS: If I were driving down the road and got pulled over --
PHILLIP: Yes.
JENNINGS: -- and the police came up to my window and gave me instructions and I didn't follow it, what would happen to me?
PHILLIP: Yes, but hold on-
JENNINGS: Smashing in my windows, that's what would happen to me.
PHILLIP: I'm just... First of all, first of all --
JENNINGS: Follow the laws and instructions.
PHILLIP: I think that we also just need to acknowledge that there are different versions of what happened here, in terms of what DHS is saying versus what the individual's saying. So I think that there's that. But secondly, if you were stopped and a cop stopped you and was like, "Are you a U.S. citizen?"
And you showed them the ID that you had on you, which is your real ID, your driver's license, and they were like --
JENNINGS: If I fail to roll down my window --
PHILLIP: "That doesn't matter. We're going to, we're going to arrest you, and we're going to figure it out later." What would you say?
JENNINGS: If I failed to roll down my window, if I didn't listen to the instructions of law enforcement, I'd have whatever was coming at me, because that's stupid. Just say, "Yes, I'll roll down my window. Let me show you my ID." Failure to follow simple instructions gets people in trouble all the time.
Now Charlotte, by the way, human trafficking hub, major MS-13 problem, huge murder rate issue, and the governor right now won't turn 1400 illegals over to the feds --
PHILLIP: -- crime, just to note --
WEST: Crime's down 20 percent.
PHILLIP: Crime is down 24 percent.
JENNINGS: -- Uptown Charlotte, major murder strike.
PHILLIP: Homicides are down 24 percent, aggravated assaults down 19 percent, robberies down 22 percent.
JENNINGS: Uptown Charlotte has a huge murder rate.
PHILLIP: I don't think that this is a crime-related issue.
NAVARRO: Let me just say this. It's, it's an immigration issue. There's, there's a lot of people
First of all, Donald Trump did very much campaign on getting rid of the worst of the worst.
UNGAR-SARGON: He also said it's going to be --
NAVARRO: He got it -- he said --
Exactly. In order, in order to get those numbers, it means he doesn't just go after the worst of the worst OR Tren de Aragua.
UNGAR-SARGON: We agree.
NAVARRO: It means he takes away the TPS of people who were here legal or people who have applied for political asylum or people who came under parole.
Donald Trump and the Republicans made great inroads in 2024 for the Latino communities. It helped him win the presidency, because he did very well with Latino communities in places like Pennsylvania, in places like Arizona. He has lost so much of that ground.
Today, Harry Enten did an entire story about this. There's, like, a 34, 35 point shift. Why? Because Latinos are looking at these stories, and they realize that this is racial profiling. You realize that if you look like me, have an accent like I do, maybe work at a tree farm, maybe work at a, stand in front of a Home Depot, if I'm standing in the wrong place, Latinos are afraid. [03:39:52]
I know Trumpers, people who voted for Trump or who supported Trump, whose family members are now in Sudan or in Eswatini, 'cause that's where some of the Cubans are being sent, people who supported Donald Trump 'cause they wanted him to get rid of the gang members, and instead, he's getting rid of people who are decent, hardworking folks, some of them who were here under some legal status or temporary protection, and it's having a political cost.
PHILLIP: All right, we have to leave it there. Coming up next, a federal judge is blasting the DOJ's handling of its case against James Comey. Will it be enough, though, to have that case thrown out altogether?
A special guest is going to join us at the table. That's next.
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[03:45:00]
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PHILLIP: Tonight, a federal judge is once again scolding Trump's handpicked prosecutor in the James Comey trial, and he's warning that the indictment could be thrown out altogether. Today, Judge William Fitzpatrick accused the government of a disturbing pattern of investigative missteps related to their handling of the evidence in that case, and that Trump's former personal attorney, Lindsey Halligan, made fundamental missteps of the law when she presented to the grand jury.
Now, just two weeks ago, the same judge accused Halligan of taking an indict first and investigate second approach. The judge is giving the government until Wednesday to object his order giving Comey's lawyers access to jury records. And another judge has now stayed that while he hears the facts of the case.
But Stacy, what do you make of, first of all, how you would even get to this point, where the judge is looking at what you've presented to a grand jury and is basically asking the question, "Do you even understand how any of this is supposed to work?"
STACY SCHNEIDER, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR, U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT: So, grand jury minutes don't even come out to anybody before a trial starts, so this early in the proceedings, there were so many errors in there by Lindsey Halligan to that grand jury in that room that this could easily be dismissed just on having a tainted grand jury indictment.
She said things to those jurors, and this was released by this magistrate judge who reviewed the grand jury minutes and is alerting the defense and wants to release to the defense these minutes in their challenge of these charges. She said crazy things like impinging on James Comey's Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, hinting to the grand jury that he can explain away your questions, grand jury. When he gets to trial, he can talk about his innocence there. You
never say anything in reference to a defendant's guilt or innocence in the grand jury. You merely go into the room, present evidence to the grand jurors.
There is no judge in there, there are no defense attorneys in there. You have a solemn, sacred job to present evidence in a proper way.
She also made another comment to the grand jury, which blew my mind, which was, "Well, what we're presenting to you now is only the beginning. There's going to be more, better evidence at trial." This isn't just a rookie mistake. This is a constitutional mistake. The grand jury can only consider what they're given in that room, it's horrible.
PHILLIP: Only the best people. Am I right?
NAVARRO: And she also presented evidence from previous investigations that are not allowed in that.
SCHNEIDER: Which could be a Fourth Amendment violation.
PHILLIP: This is just a pattern-- Yes, but a pattern of the Trump administration putting up people--
JENNINGS: But they won the case, ultimately. The youths, the youths got off, if you'll believe.
NAVARRO: This is worse than my cousin Jenny.
PHILLIP: The Trump administration consistently putting out people who are not qualified to put it simply, to do these jobs, Anna.
NAVARRO: Yes. Is there a question there?
SCHNEIDER: You know what we can--
NAVARRO: He puts out people who are not qualified but are loyal to him to do these jobs. Right. He fired the person who was not willing to do this, but, but that was qualified, and put in a real estate attorney who said yes to everything he wants and who has no experience prosecuting a criminal case.
SCHNEIDER: And you know what's so funny? Lindsay Halligan, to me, looks just like Hope Hicks, his former aide from the Trump administration with the big flowing long hair and the same kind of makeup and the same look. She looks like one of "The Apprentice" girls.
It's bizarre. She's never prosecuted-
JENNINGS: Does that make her a--
PHILLIP: -- what makes him a bad lawyer is making mistakes in front of a grand jury.
JENNINGS: I don't understand why that's a relevant comment, what she looks like.
SCHNEIDER: Because it's relevant because it's kind of funny that he puts in a prosecutor who has never prosecuted a case in a day in her life. So yes, I'm alluding to her looks because-
JENNINGS: Also, what, what you were saying about what went on in the room, that's the judge's, I guess that's -- I mean, he's supposed to be a judge, but he's acting like a defense attorney for Comey here.
What if Halligan says what you just said didn't happen? What if she has a different view? By the way, she is going to object by Wednesday.
SCHNEIDER: They are going to. She is going to object. She might deny it.
JENNINGS: You're making, you're making definitive statements, but she has a different point of view about what was said.
SCHNEIDER: They're not my statements, Scott. They're the statements of the magistrate released and said what-
JENNINGS: Okay, well she has a different view.
SCHNEIDER: Wait. It's the magistrate said this is what he read. Mm- hmm. He's alerting the defense and the prosecution that there are problems here and that the defense as a remedy because the prejudice to Comey could be so high because of what went on in there, according to that judge, not according to me, according to him, that Comey should be allowed, Comey's team should be allowed to look at those grand jury minutes to mount their challenge to getting the case dismissed.
JENNINGS: Well, she's going to -- going to object.
SCHNEIDER: A valid point considering what might have happened.
JENNINGS: And you said by Wednesday. Yes. She's going to object and she has a different point of view about what you reported.
SCHNIEDER: I don't think she's going to win. She might object, but I think she's going to lose.
JENNINGS: I don't know what. Look, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm just saying there's a different point of view.
NAVARRO: But these are, these are transcripts. These are transcripts and minutes that are, you know, that they're just evidence of what she said on Wednesday.
[22:50:07]
PHILLIP: Look, the record will show did she say it or did she not? Did she do it or did she not? I mean, I don't know that this is like a, my opinion about what transpired. Right. It either is in the minutes or it's not. WEST: Yes, but you know what the sad thing is, is that, you know, we
got 70 percent of our fellow citizens living paycheck to paycheck. So as we talk about these issues, the corruption, the corruption, the corruption, the whole infrastructure of the republic is collapsing in real time. And it's an issue in part of the quality of one's character, character's destiny.
Harry Clydeas and Emerson will write about that. And all the talk, all the distractions don't take us to the fundamental issues which are the fact that civic virtue is being lost, high quality public life is being lost, lies are replacing even efforts to tell the truth. None of us have a monopoly on truth, but at least we can aspire to it.
NAVARRO: Cornell, I'm not sure James Comey thinks this is a distraction.
WEST: Well, in his particular case, that's true. But I'm talking about the whole, James Comey's not the only one. I'm talking about Fred Hampton.
NAVARRO: And she knows not a distraction to me.
PHILLIP: And look, I'm not discounting anything that you're saying, Dr. West. But it doesn't end, it doesn't end with James Comey, there also a bunch of people that the Trump -- that Trump has essentially ordered to be investigated.
You've got Brennan, you've got others, and The Post has an interesting story about one of those individuals in Miami who is pursuing these broad investigations into Trump officials. And his appointment he has some issues in his resume in terms of not, also not being potentially qualified for that job. But his appointment is causing real attorneys who've been there for a long time to flee, and he's there for the sole purpose of prosecuting people on Trump's enemies list.
UNGAR-SARGON: I have to say, every time they name somebody who's, you know, been indicted or being prosecuted, I think to myself, "Oh wow, that sounds like revenge." And then I see what they're being accused of and I'm like, "That sounds really bad actually."
And I kind of change my mind about it, although I have to say I'm with Dr. West on this. I feel like for most Americans, this is just so not top of mind. People are living paycheck to paycheck. They are really struggling with how they're going to make ends meet and pay their rent, and I'm with you, Dr. West.
PHILLIP: It's -- It's not, and I think you're right. Where people's minds at. It is, it's not top of mind for most regular people, but it is top of mind for the president of the United States.
Stacy Schneider, thank you very much for being here.
Next, the guest is going to-- The panel is going to give us their nightcaps, the legal phrases edition. will tell you all about it next.
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PHILLIP: We are back.
Have you had enough of your kids saying six-seven, enough to make the phrase illegal?
JENNINGS: Yes.
PHILLIP: Well there's one elementary school in Indiana that's decided to do just that, and they passed an initiative making six-seven illegal in order to, quote, "keep parents safe."
JENNINGS: Good. Thank you.
PHILLIP: So for tonight's nightcap, what phrase or word would you make illegal? Batya, you're up first.
UNGAR-SARGON: I am so sick of the word weaponized. You cannot weaponize a word or a thought. Literally the entire purpose of the United States of America is that words cannot become weapons.
You choose words. We fight it out. That's the whole point of free speech, I'm so sick of this word.
NAVARRO: Jimmy Kimmel agrees.
PHILLIP: Fair enough.
NAVARRO: I don't like all of these abbreviations that kids put in texts. Like I constantly find myself having to go look up what the hell they're trying to say. FWIW. You know, TTYL, talk to you later, IMO, IMHO, SMH.
I mean, it's just... It's TMI.
PHILLIP: Okay, fair enough. All right. Dr. West.
WEST: Well, I come from a great tradition of the Black freedom struggle whose anthem is lift every voice, not echoes. So I'm open a variety of voices across the board. I'm very libertarian when it comes to people's use of the voice.
UNGAR-SARGON: Even if it's an abbreviation form?
Even if it's in abbreviated form?
WEST: It depends on how much rhythm in the pronunciation.
PHILLIP: There's nothing that annoys you that is.
WEST: Not at all. Not at all.
PHILLIP: Okay, all right. Well, equal opportunity. Scott? JENNINGS: I'm going to send--
PHILLIP: Scott has one probably for you. He probably has like a laundry list.
JENNINGS: I'm going to send my kids to your house for about 36 hours, and then you will send me back the list of words that will be banned.
WEST: Oh, you bring them on, bring them on, brother.
JENNINGS: This, this brain rot among these kids-
WEST: Bring them on.
JENNINGS: -- the six-seven, the sigma, the what a -- Sigma?
Ban it all. Ooh. I'm just telling you. Every parent out there knows all this stuff. It's terrible, so good for the school. So here's mine.
NAVARRO: What the hell is sigma?
JENNINGS: I don't know. That's what they're saying. I don't know what it is.
They say it all the time. They're just like they're inventing a new language.
PHILLIP: As one does.
JENNINGS: Okay. Mine is this, would you like to add a tip? I am so sick of being asked if I would like to add a tip by customer service kiosk where there's no human beings standing there.
These little machines are asking us to tip things all the time that we previously didn't have to tip in our culture. I'm happy to tip a good waiter, a good waitress at a restaurant. I don't need to.
Where does the tip go if I'm tipping a machine without a person standing there? Who gets the tip? What computer programmer gets it?
PHILLIP: Do you want to just have a wage that adds the tip on it--
JENNINGS: I just want that to go away--
PHILLIP: -- as some people have suggested?
[23:00:01]
JENNINGS: Who, who gets the wage if there's no customer service person?
PHILLIP: I know. I'm just saying--
JENNINGS: Who gets the wages?
PHILLIP: I mean, yes, you're right. Like, you know-- JENNINGS: Terrible.
PHILLIP: -- you go to the airport and you check out at a kiosk and they're like, "Would you like to add a 20 percent tip?"
JENNINGS: And 80 bucks for water.
PHILLIP: It's like, "No." Terrible. "No, sir." "No, Mr. Robot."
All right, everyone. Thank you very much. Thank you for watching "NewsNight."
And don't miss my discussion, a powerful one featuring influential women exploring the themes of the CNN new film, "Prime Minister." "Prime Minister: The Conversation" is now streaming exclusively on the CNN app.
"Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
