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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
New Contradictions as Timeline of Boat Strikes Gets Clearer; GOP Senators Question Legality of Pentagon Second Strike; Trump Keeps Passing Out Pardons for Fraudsters, Corruption. Treasury Secretary Pronounced the Worst Affordability in Blue States; Elise Stefanik Calls Speaker Johnson an Ineffective Speaker. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired December 03, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, closer scrutiny of the who, what, when, why, and how are starting to expose the administration's story as a watchdog says Pete Hegseth put troops in danger.
Plus --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to thank President Trump.
PHILLIP: -- is the simplest way to get a pardon from Donald Trump to have been convicted by Joe Biden's DOJ.
Also --
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: Affordability is worse than a blue state.
PHILLIP: -- after the President calls high costs a fake narrative, his money man now blames the electoral map.
And a party stalwart goes nuclear on the Republican speaker, why Elise Stefanik calls Mike Johnson ineffective and in danger.
Live at the table, Ana Navarro, Arthur Aidala, Jamie Harrison, and Harrison Fields.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Let's get right to what America's talking about. The story keeps shifting. Tonight, there's growing scrutiny about the U.S. military's follow-up strike on a suspected drug boat in the Caribbean. It is exposing holes in the Trump administration's explanations of what happened. Now, try to follow along here. The attack happened on September 2nd, and reports say that there were no -- that there were survivors and someone ordered what they call a double-tap strike on those survivors. The White House maintains its boat bombing operation is to crack down on illegal drugs coming to the United States, which leads to this contradiction. Where exactly were these drugs headed?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: These particular drugs were probably headed to Trinidad or some other country in the Caribbean.
This one was operating in international waters, headed towards the United States to flood our country with poison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Contradiction number two, listen as Pete Hegseth describes watching the strikes and who was targeted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I watched it live. We knew exactly who was in that boat. We knew exactly what they were doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: But lawmakers later said the Trump officials revealed they did not know the identities of those involved. And just yesterday, Hegseth backtracked on his own story claiming he did not stick around long enough to watch how it all unfolded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: I did not personally see survivors, but I stand -- because the thing was on fire. It was exploded in fire and smoke. You can't see anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And when it does come to survivors, Hegseth added this.
But there is new reporting from The Washington Post that suggests it may not have taken hours for the smoke to clear and for those two survivors to come into focus, despite Hegseth saying that it was hours later and he couldn't stick around long enough to see the end of that strike.
This story is a little perplexing because this is September, by the way, September 2nd. It's been months now, and they can't seem to get their story straight. They can't seem to figure out what they're going to say. And I actually think that very first clip that we played of Marco Rubio, where he said initially that it was not going to the United States, it was going to Trinidad or some other country, and then he corrected himself to kind of get in line with what the administration was saying, that's the most -- one of the most telling to me that they know that they need to have a particular narrative about this. Otherwise, there would be some questions that perhaps Congress would raise.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the questions is that it's illegal if you know that there are survivors who are not a threat to anyone, to then just go and kill them. So, that's against the military law. So, they have to make sure that that's not the narrative though. They have to make sure that the ship isn't bombed, that they -- and they know that, and then they see people who are alive there, but like incapacitated. Not that they're there with a machine gun and try to kill somebody else, then you're not supposed to just kill the survivors. So, they have to make sure that no one intentionally killed survivors.
Now, what they're saying now is that the admiral -- they are admitting, I believe that there was a second strike and that was not Pete Hegseth's call. It was the admiral's call to say, uh-oh, the boat's not wiped out.
[22:05:00]
There are people in there and they can continue on forward. And so that's -- they're saying, look, it wasn't us.
And, look, you know what happens, Abby, especially when the camera comes on, right? Hegseth's on his old show, Fox and Friends, and he's like, I saw the whole thing. It's a human instinct to say I was there and I supervised it. And did he, didn't he? I don't know. It's probably easy to tell whether he knew where he was.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Arthur, he should have watched the whole thing. He's the secretary of defense. This was the first strike against such a boat. Look, I think the reason they're having such a hard time keeping their narrative straight is because this is a completely fabricated narrative. When Marco Rubio said that this boat was heading towards Trinidad and Tobago, he was actually saying the truth. Most of the drugs that traveled through Venezuela go through the Caribbean and end up in Europe. Most of the drugs that come to the United States come through the Pacific Coast, up of Central America and Mexico. The fentanyl that is killing tens of thousands of Americans is coming through is coming through Mexico.
But in order for them to justify what they are doing in Venezuela, they have to have a reason. They have to have a narrative.
AIDALA: The question I have is what are they doing in Venezuela and why --
NAVARRO: Well, I'll tell you what they're doing in Venezuela. They are attempting regime change. Nicolas Maduro is a horrible human being. He is a dictator. He is anti-American. He has destabilized the entire region, but they can't call it regime change because that, in turn, would require Congressional approval.
(CROSSTALKS) PHILLIP: You know, there is a lot of bipartisan concern about this. And I think the Republicans on Capitol Hill who are raising concerns, you know, their voices are pretty crystal clear in all of this. I should note that the admiral that that you're talking about, he's going to be testifying about his side of this story this week, tomorrow.
So, let's play with the Republican Congress people who've been critical of this, what they've been saying lately.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): There is a question of the legality of bombing people who are shipwrecked or incapacitated.
I frankly think it's absolutely illegal.
REP. DON BACON (R-NE): We don't kill two survivors who are not posing an imminent threat to anybody.
It doesn't sound good. And if somebody actually did this, they should be held accountable.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Our men and women get in situations where they may be blown out of the water. And we are putting our forces at risk if we're setting or lowering the bar for actually honoring rules of engagement.
Our reputation matters and the bar that we set, you can argue, is going to be the top level of expectation for our peers and for our allies and our adversaries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, Harrison, I mean, they're pretty clear that this is not about the -- nobody wants to defend drug traffickers, but what they're doing is defending Americans who might be put in similar situations.
HARRISON FIELDS, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, CGCN: Well, I'm glad you said that. No one wants to defend drug traffickers because that's what it seems that the Democratic Party is doing.
PHILLIP: What about these Republicans?
FIELDS: This is the same thing they did with the Maryland father of four --
PHILLIP: But what about these Republicans, Rand Paul, Don Bacon, Thom Tillis? You heard them --
FIELDS: These are the same characters that will always.
But the reality is this is all manufactured.
PHILLIP: What do you mean?
FIELDS: This is all manufactured.
PHILLIP: Hold on.
FIELDS: If you listen to you and I'll listen to some of these other people, you think they're taking out Theo's Fishing Boat or a Royal Caribbean cruise. These are designated --
PHILLIP: Did you listen to anything that was said in those clips?
FIELDS: Designated narco-terrorists that are coming to this country.
PHILLIP: Did you listen to anything that was said in the --
FIELDS: Yes, I did.
PHILLIP: Did you listen, as Thom Tillis said, our and women --
FIELDS: All are whataboutism.
PHILLIP: Hold on. No, not whataboutism.
FIELDS: Yes it is.
PHILLIP: He says, our men and women get into situations where they may be blown out of the water and we are putting our forces at risk that are setting or lowering the bar for actually honoring rules.
FIELDS: Abby, that's all great, but that's all hypothetical. Let's talk about what's actually happening. And the good thing is --
PHILLIP: Can we just take a beat?
FIELDS: You have the Department of War briefing these members --
PHILLIP: Can we take a beat and address the basic -- this is not a partisan dispute, right?
JAIME HARRISON, FORMER DNC CHAIR: No, not at all.
PHILLIP: That's one of the reasons I played this, because it's not about partisanship. It's about how do we want to be treated on the world stage? And I assume --
FIELDS: And when you ask our European allies, they're celebrating what this president is doing.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
FIELDS: Because, to Ana's point, it's protecting Europe.
PHILLIP: That is also --
FIELDS: If you ask the American people --
PHILLIP: Hold on, that's also in question.
HARRISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: There was reporting just a couple of weeks ago that the British has stopped sharing intelligence with us, because they were concerned about the legality of these strikes.
So -- but, again, put that aside for just a moment. Do you think it is a legitimate concern whether or not -- we don't know exactly all the details -- but whether or not there was something done in this instance that might have been a violation of the law? Are you concerned about that at all?
FIELDS: If there were violations, that will, of course, come out, but that is not what's happening.
PHILLIP: But are you -- but if there are violations, would that concern you?
FIELDS: The same would've been true when Obama was striking people left and right, and I didn't see CNN or anyone else complaining then. We all have to have a standard.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second, Harrison.
FIELDS: We have the laws on the books.
PHILLIP: This (INAUDIBLE) is brought up every single night.
FIELDS: We have the laws on the books.
PHILLIP: And the answer is that Obama's drone strikes were incredibly controversial.
[22:10:03]
They were covered extensively by CNN, by all the mainstream outlets.
FIELDS: And I didn't hear a single Democrat --
PHILLIP: I'm not sure you were around for it. I was around for it. It was controversial, okay? Right, that's what I thought. It was controversial at the time.
HARRISON: And there were Democrats that did complain about that.
PHILLIP: So, it's not as if this is not something that -- I think there's clear bipartisan concern about this because, again, when we talk about war, war is not just a one-sided thing.
HARRISON: That's exactly correct.
PHILLIP: It is something that we can be subject to as a nation. And we create these rules. We created the rules. And then for us to violate them? I think that is why you're seeing some Republicans concerned.
HARRISON: Well, Abby, you were spot on. Listen, in the end of the day, the rule of the law has to be paramount. It has to be paramount. And it has to be the rules of engagement that we want applied to the other side, but that will also be applied to us.
And right now, it is sad to see where we are. It used to be when Republicans were in charge of administration, you know, I was assured that, you know, even folks like Dick Cheney understand where the line was as it relates to war crimes and not stepping over that line. Right now --
AIDALA: But you realize President Trump in the last -- but President Trump in the last 24 hours --
HARRISON: I'm speaking nicely of the dead.
AIDALA: President Trump in the last 24 hours has made it very, very clear that he himself had nothing to do with it.
HARRISON: It's covering -- CYA right now in the White House. This is complete CYA. This is complete CYA.
NAVARRO: Can I tell you what I think is going on here? I think --
AIDALA: Of course you can.
NAVARRO: I think, he thought -- I think Trump thought that he could scare Maduro out of Venezuela, that if he started bombing, you know, putting -- sending bombs of to some Venezuelan boats, if he started sending some USS carriers to the coast of Venezuela, Maduro, like many dictators before him, would be afraid, figure out how he could take his money, his family, get on a plane and flee to some place in exile for the rest of his life, it hasn't worked.
And so now we are facing the very reality of, okay, now, Donald Trump and this government is completely invested in bringing -- getting Maduro out. We've got one-fourth of the arsenal of the U.S. Navy parked off the coast of Venezuela.
FIELDS: Protecting American interests.
NAVARRO: What is the American interest? Oil?
FIELDS: Drugs pouring into this country and killing us?
NAVARRO: Okay. Most drugs do not come through Venezuela. Then why aren't you bombing Mexico?
FIELDS: So, we closed the southern border and that did a real job.
NAVARRO: Are you going to bomb?
FIELDS: Stop. That's a ridiculous argument.
NAVARRO: No, you stop.
FIELDS: That's a ridiculous argument.
NAVARRO: No, you're the one being ridiculous.
FIELDS: The president you advocated for four years, Joseph R. Biden allowed our border to be open.
NAVARRO: I'm not going to let you gaslight me.
(CROSSTALKS)
FIELDS: Joe Biden letting tons and tons and tons -- well, tell that to the families, of fentanyl families who have died --
NAVARRO: No drugs come from Venezuela.
FIELDS: It comes from the southern border.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
FIELDS: If your argument that drugs are not coming from Colombia or Venezuela to America --
NAVARRO: Oh, I'm going to argue that no fentanyl is coming from Venezuela.
FIELDS: Talk to the DEA.
NAVARRO: No, you are wrong. You are lying to the American people. You are part of fabricating a narrative that doesn't exist.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
FIELDS: Well, your day job is The View, so let's talk about fabrication.
NAVARRO: And you have no day job.
PHILLIP: Harrison, you are wrong.
FIELDS: I'm not wrong.
PHILLIP: You're wrong because you just mixed up a whole bunch of stuff there.
FIELDS: No, I didn't.
PHILLIP: Where does Fentanyl come from?
FIELDS: It comes from many places.
PHILLIP: Where does 90 percent of the fentanyl that comes into -- where does it come from?
FIELDS: It's coming from the southern border.
PHILLIP: Where does it come from? Do you know? FIELDS: In which the Democrats allowed.
PHILLIP: So, where does it come from?
FIELDS: Do the Democrats allow the southern border to be open, yes or no?
PHILLIP: Does it come from Venezuela or not?
FIELDS: It comes from many places.
PHILLIP: Where does it come from?
FIELDS: We know for a fact that fentanyl is not coming from Venezuela.
PHILLIP: Okay.
AIDALA: To his point, though --
PHILLIP: So, no -- Arthur --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Hold on a second. The reason I'm asking you this is because I'm --
FIELDS: 0 percent of fentanyl comes to the United States, comes to America --
PHILLIP: I'm trying to gauge -- do you know what I'm trying to gauge? I'm trying to gauge whether you're willing to just state basic facts, you're willing to listen, and it sounds like you're not willing to do either of those things in this moment.
FIELDS: You can't even can even say that fentanyl can and does come from Venezuela.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Hold on a second. What Ana said was that a majority --
FIELDS: That it doesn't --
PHILLIP: Are you going to listen or not?
FIELDS: Are you going to just --
PHILLIP: A majority of the fentanyl comes from Mexico. Is that true or false?
AIDALA: Let's say it's true, but, Abby, but I mean, here's where the problem --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Arthur, hang on a second. Arthur, hang on a second. Let's not, let's say it's true or false. It is true that a majority of the fentanyl comes from Mexico.
AIDALA: From Mexico, correct.
PHILLIP: Here's the other thing that is true.
AIDALA: It's true.
PHILLIP: It is also true that a majority of the cocaine that comes to the United States is not coming through the Caribbean channel. So, I'm curious about whether you're willing to acknowledge facts or not, or if you're just more committed to your talking points.
FIELDS: If our intelligence community is saying that these are narco- terrorists with the desire to come to America --
PHILLIP: Okay.
FIELDS: -- and to bring drugs into this country within the president's prerogative --
PHILLIP: Don't you think they should provide a shred of evidence to that point?
[22:15:01]
FIELDS: Yes. Have you talked members of Congress who have had these classified briefings?
PHILLIP: Should they not provide evidence that those drugs, that they know for a fact, that those drugs were coming to the United States? There are a lot of legitimate questions about whether that is true.
FIELDS: This administration has been incredibly transparent --
PHILLIP: You had Rand Paul, a Republican, saying that the amount -- the distance between Venezuela and Miami is so great that there is no way that these little fisher boats would end up in Miami.
So, these are legitimate questions.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: There are factual issues with your assertion that the fentanyl crisis is being caused by Venezuela, when we know for a fact that that is not the case.
FIELDS: If you are going to stand here today --
PHILLIP: And your unwillingness to acknowledge I think really says more about your commitment --
FIELDS: For drugs eviscerating populations. So, if you want to defend Maduro and the country of Venezuela --
PHILLIP: I'm going to hit pause on this conversation because we got a lot more going on. But I don't want to argue about talking points. FIELDS: I don't think you want to be defending Maduro.
PHILLIP: I want to argue about facts, that there is not a single person at this table, my friend, who is arguing in defense of the Maduro.
FIELDS: You're doing more to defend --
PHILLIP: Please do not say that. We're going to pause the conversation and we're going to go on to the next topic.
Why does Donald Trump keep handing out pardons for fraud and corruption? He's calling an entire community to be deported for the same crimes and pardoning others.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: In tonight's episode of Who in the World Did President Trump Promised a Pardon? Well, it's this man, Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar of Texas. He and his wife were indicted last year for allegedly accepting more than $600,000 in bribes from two foreign entities. And today, Trump accused the Biden administration of weaponizing the DOJ to target political opponents because Trump wrote, Cuellar spoke out about the former president's border policies.
And just moments ago after Trump made that post, Cueller filed for reelection.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Are you running as a Democrat?
REP. HENRY CUELLAR (D-TX): As I've said, nothing has changed. I am a conservative Democrat. And I am very bipartisan and I work with my Republican friends when I need to work with my Republican friends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat is CNN Global Economic Analyst Rana Foroohar. Rana, good to see you.
I'll come to you in just a second, but I have to go to this guy over here the lawyer at the table, because he knows a little bit about these pardons. And it is interesting to me that Trump has a couple of criteria, one of which is that you need to be at least prosecuted by the Biden DOJ or somebody who prosecuted (INAUDIBLE).
AIDALA: Well --
PHILLIP: Is there anything else that I should add to that list to --
AIDALA: Well, Darryl Strawberry. You know, he is a very famous celebrity ball player who Trump has a long-term relationship with.
Look, you know, we were talking earlier, he's the first president who could feel their pain and in a very specific way. It's not like he was prosecuted years ago. He was prosecuted by the same administration that prosecuted many of these people.
And, look, I lose objectivity when it comes to Mayor Eric Adams because I'm a friend, I'm a fan, but Eric Adams, he basically got prosecuted because he went crazy about the border situation with Biden, and they went after Eric Adams.
PHILLIP: Do you really think that's the case?
AIDALA: Oh, well, you have to say something, Abby. I'm not talking off the top of my head.
PHILLIP: I know, and that's why I'm asking.
AIDALA: I handle cases --
PHILLIP: I'm legit asking you because I'm wondering if you know what I don't know. Have you seen evidence that it was because he was critical of the Biden administration?
AIDALA: Well, I know that -- I know for a fact that Eric Adams, in the beginning of him being vociferous, was told specifically, shut your F-ing mouth. When President Biden gets reelected, we'll help you. But right now, shut your F-ing mouth. And that was by the highest people in the United States of American Democratic Party. And he couldn't shut his F-ing mouth because New York City where I live was getting crushed, right?
And handling cases in the --
PHILLIP: Can I ask a follow-up question just to clarify?
AIDALA: Sure, of course. It's your show.
PHILLIP: I don't want you to think I'm interrupting you. I just want to understand --
AIDALA: Interrupt away.
PHILLIP: -- President Biden would help him with the border situation or with his alleged crimes?
AIDALA: No, it wasn't with his alleged crime.
PHILLIP: It was with the border?
AIDALA: Yes. And he was asking for a lot more help. Because, look, I don't want to betray any confidence between the mayor and I, but my question to him was, I go, Eric, you got Schumer from Brooklyn, and you got Jeffries from Brooklyn and you're from Brooklyn. Like you can't figure this out? And he's like, I can't, they I'm not getting any help. And he needed help. He needed financial help. And my point is this, Abby, I've handled now dozens and dozens, I'm not going to exaggerate saying hundreds, of cases in the Southern District of New York. So, I know the kind of people they go after. I know the kind of cases they go after.
Menendez, which you mentioned, that's a great example, gold bars, cash, Mercedes-Benz. That's what they go after. Upgrades on flights and upgrades in hotels and --
NAVARRO: Yes. But Cuellar situation is more than upgrades on Turkish Airlines. And, by the way, having flown Turkish Airlines, I wouldn't understand why you would want an upgrade.
PHILLIP: The upgrades are very serious.
NAVARRO: Listen, I think Trump really likes to flex. He likes the power.
AIDALA: Of course, and -- absolutely, and he likes be hero. And he likes to hero.
NAVARRO: Becoming Oprah Winfrey of pardons, you get a pardon and you get a pardon, you get a pardon.
AIDALA: Yes, and it's heroic.
NAVARRO: Henry Cuellar also is a Congress person in a Congress that right now has a razor thin Republican majority. And so every little vote matters.
But I think we should take a look at, and we should talk about, if we're going to talk about pardon, something that makes no sense to me.
[22:25:04]
It just doesn't, and I find it really abominable, which is the pardon that he did this weekend of the former president of Honduras, Hernandez, who did flood the streets of America with cocaine, who did get a $1 million bribe from El Chapo to allow passage through Honduras of cocaine up to the United States, who did boast that he was going to have cocaine shoved up the gringo's nose.
This guy was serving a 45-year sentence. This guy was prosecuted and convicted for having brought an unfathomable 400 tons of cocaine into the United States.
AIDALA: I'm not here to defend --
(CROSSTALKS)
NAVARRO: We're now about to bomb Venezuela over alleged cocaine that doesn't come into the United States.
AIDALA: This is all I'm going to say.
NAVARRO: He pardoned the guy who did bring cocaine to the United States.
AIDALA: All I'm going to say is this. I'm not going to defend all of President Trump's decision. That's not my role.
NAVARRO: Okay. But that's a disgusting way, Arthur.
AIDALA: Okay. All -- I'm not disagreeing with you. All I'm saying is President Trump has an empathy and a sympathy and compassion that no other president of this country has ever had because he sat in the courtroom and he heard -- not joking --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: There is an epidemic of white collar crime that is on the receiving end of pardons. It's only been 11 months since Trump has been in the White House.
NAVARRO: Oh, sure. He's longer than that.
PHILLIP: They just announced the pardon of another guy, a top entertainment executive who literally was just charged this year by Trump's own DOJ. What's up with the sympathy for white collar criminals, the fraudsters, the call it Ponzi scheme guys?
RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: You know, it takes one to no one. I mean, there's a pay for play kind of a situation happening in this government. You know, it's something in my world, in economics and in the markets, it's starting to be written about as what's called, it's kind of a wonky term, the EMification of America, the emerging marketification of America, because this is the kind of thing --
PHILLIP: That's not a compliment.
FOROOHAR: It's not a compliment, it's the kind of thing that you used to -- you know, in places we used to call third world countries, you know, this is the kind of behavior that you would see. Now, you're seeing it in the U.S. A lot of the emerging markets are actually cleaning up their act. Now, you're seeing an influence. You can buy your way to a pardon, you can buy your way into a corporate deal. I mean, there are dozens of examples of the president's own family getting involved in deals that, frankly, you know, are very dodgy, particularly in areas like crypto, for example, which could end up triggering the next financial crisis. And then we're going to see a lot of what's been happening along behind the scenes.
HARRISON: And, Abby, I want us to go to that way back machine. You know, in 2006, I was the executive director of the House Dem Caucus. And in that election, that midterm election, it was a wave election for Democrats. And part of the message from Democratic Party was that there's a culture of corruption that is effusive across Washington, D.C. Donald Trump is adding to that culture of corruption with all of these various parties.
FIELDS: The former president pardoned his son.
HARRISON: But regardless of Joe --
FIELDS: Regardless, we're just going to put that on the backburner, we'll forget about that.
HARRISON: But we know that this president pardoned a thousand people who beat the hell, the living hell out people on January 6th, who smeared feces across the Capitol building. Think about if, you know -- for many of us, we think about, had many of those folks been black folks or brown folks, it would have been the bloodiest day in the history of this country. But this president just said to those folks who says --
FIELDS: And that messaging won you 2024, it didn't. The reality is --
HARRISON: Back the blue. Yes, but the message worked in 2006 and it can still work again. And we've seen it work right now in some of these special elections.
FIELDS: These are the flashy pardson, these are ones that catches the news. When you look at what's actually happening, you have Alice Marie Johnson, someone who the president pardoned in his first term, who's overseeing a large majority of all these pardons giving a second chance to countless Americans who would be left in the shadows in a dark, cold prison cell.
This president is giving these people extra life. Alice Marie Johnson is the best test --
HARRISON: A lot of test, billionaires and --
PHILLIP: Why are you overshadowing with these other pardons? Why is he pardoning a drug trafficker? Why is he pardoning somebody that his own DOJ just prosecuted? Why is he pardoning somebody who was convicted of $1.7 billion in fraud?
FIELDS: If you look at a lot of these cases --
PHILLIP: So, why -- and why is he pardoning somebody who he and his family are in business with?
[22:30:01]
FIELDS: If you look at a lot of these cases, what you happen to be telling is half the truth. If you look at the actual, some of these are over prosecutions. Some of these are crimes that would have never been prosecuted.
PHILLIP: So the Honduran drug trafficker is--
FIELDS: That is a whole another -- it's not going to take three minutes.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SR. POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Who was the lead investigator?
FIELDS: There was a larger -- there was a larger, there was a larger geopolitical issue there. This is a right-wing, this is the previous administration.
PHILLIP: So Trump is trying to influence the Honduran election by pardoning someone.
Of course, it's Joe Biden.
PHILLIP: So pardoning someone from this guy's political party. But he's a drug trafficker.
FIELDS: But I'm saying the previous administration tried to make an example out of this person. And if you look at who he testified against him, it was drug lords that this guy extradited to the United States.
PHILLIP: And I just pointed out that the Honduran president's brother was prosecuted in this, in the part of the scheme, prosecuted by Emil Bove. That's Trump's former lawyer. He's now in the Trump administration right now.
FIELDS: So you guys try to take him out.
PHILLIP: I'm sorry. Now he's on the court.
FIELDS: And you guys, and you had--
PHILLIP: So are you really trying to argue? You were just talking about us defending drug traffickers. Are you trying to defend a drug trafficker?
FIELDS: I'm not. If you look at the facts of the case, you talk about over, there's a lot of holes in that case. They try to make an example out of this person.
I don't know all the facts.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Filled with cocaine.
FIELDS: But what I can tell you, what I can tell you.
PHILLIP: I got to leave it there. But I'm just going to leave, I'm going to leave that alone. There's only one person at this table who's defended a drug trafficker, and it ain't me.
When it comes to inflation between red and blue states, the treasury secretary thinks so. We'll debate. That's next.
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[22:35:00]
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PHILLIP: Are Republican states more affordable than Democratic ones?
Well, Trump's treasury secretary thinks that they are. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: In a blue state, affordability is worse than a blue state.
ANDREW ROSS SORKIN, FOUNDER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE, DEALBOOK: We can debate that, but keep going.
BESSENT: There's no debate. The number of 50 basis points higher inflation, the 10 highest inflation rates are in blue cities.
SORKIN: But just so you know, because I went to look at this, this is the Joint Economic Committee since 2021. The highest inflation of the past four years has been in red states, especially Florida.
BESSENT: I'm talking about current.
SORKIN: Current.
BESSENT: Current.
SORKIN: Not over the past four years.
BESSENT: Right.
BESSENT: Today. Okay.
SORKIN: I would think four years would be a reasonable trend line to look at.
BESSENT: New York, Illinois, California, Massachusetts are depopulating.
SORKIN: And they're going to places in Florida, like Florida, where interest rates are, I'm saying inflation's up 22 percent over the last four years.
BESSENT: Well, inflation, then inflation is up 25 percent nationally, so it's lower.
SORKIN: I believe in New York, it was 19 percent.
BESSENT: Sorry?
SORKIN: I believe in New York, it was 19 percent.
BESSENT: I don't think that's right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Okay. Well, tonight on Fox News, Bessent slammed the "New York Times" and the moderator of that event, saying he had to fact- check him. To this point, however, it's unclear exactly what evidence Bessent was citing in support of his assertions.
The Treasury Department didn't request, or didn't respond to a request for comment from CNN about that. But we looked into what Andrew Ross Sorkin was talking about, and it's actually a report from a Republican committee that showed that, yes, actually, the largest inflation increases have been mostly in red states, tied for the 10th largest inflation increases. Look at those red states over there.
So Scott Bessent was wrong, and if he was right, the Treasury Department's not jumping the plane.
RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, AND GLOBAL BUSINESS COLUMNIST AND ASSOCIATE EDITOR, "FINANCIAL TIMES": He was struggling. And look, here's what we do know, and this is what's really important. Inflation was running at about 2 percent. When Trump came in, it's now running at about 3 percent.
All of the major things that would be fueling it, health care increases, going to go up next year. That's going to be a big deal.
Tariffs still funneling through the system. We're beginning to see more increases. You're also seeing small businesses going under because they can't afford the tariff hikes. That actually disproportionately affects red states, by the way.
Also, some of the things that I have been for, like re- industrialization, bringing in more foreign investment into the U.S. in critical industries. Good thing longer term, inflationary short term, particularly when you don't see productivity increases.
Building out A.I. There's just a lot in this economy right now that is inflationary and isn't going to go away in the coming year.
AIDALA: I think there was a little bit of miscommunication there, because Andrew was talking about four years, and the Treasury Secretary was talking about one year. He's like, let's see where we were over the past one year.
PHILLIP: I guess what I'm saying is that they are not providing, he made that claim. We reached out to Treasury, they didn't provide any evidence to back up even what Bessent was saying.
FOROOHAR: Also, a number, when you say now, that's meaningless. I mean, you have to look at a trend line. That's the only thing that actually means anything.
And P.S., all the things, as I just laid out, that actually cause inflation are set to be going up in the coming year. I don't think there's any doubt we're going into a more inflationary period.
NAVARRO: I live in South Florida. I live in one of those states that got named in this. And I see a huge divide right now. It is true that a lot of very wealthy people from places like New York and California have moved to Florida.
[22:40:06]
Those wealthy people are in a bubble where they are not affected by these things, because the stock market is doing very well. But the people who shop at Costco, which is suing Trump, the people who are on the affordable, on the ACA, and are seeing their premiums go up 300 percent, those people are facing terrible affordability crisis in Florida.
Because all of these rich people have moved down, because we have no state income tax, now regular Floridians can't afford housing. They can't afford their insurance on their houses.
It is, you know, so yes, they are hurting people. So I don't think the problem is, I don't think Trump hears from those people, because he's surrounded by very wealthy people in Mar-a-Lago. The people he invites to the White House, the people he hears from are doing great.
He gave them a tax break, and the stock market is flourishing.
PHILLIP: Why strategy to be so defiant about an issue that is -- everybody knows is real for Americans, not just the numbers, but just voters are saying overwhelmingly that they don't feel like their economic conditions are improving. They think things are getting more expensive, and things are getting more expensive. So why make it A, a partisan thing, and B, not just address that?
FIELDS: You know, no one in the White House is ignoring the fact that people are still struggling. No one in the White House is doing that. What they are saying is that they inherited an economy that was going down the toilet for four years, the American people had to suffer under President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, four years of that inflation that chart was talking about in individual states.
This is precisely why they voted for President Trump to return to the White House. And he was elected to one stop the bleeding.
PHILLIP: Why are they saying that his policies have made them worse off? Because that's what they're also saying.
FIELDS: You talk to someone that goes to the gas station in South Carolina, where I filled up for $2.39.
$2.39 in South Carolina.
AIDALA: South Carolina was at the top of the inflation rate.
PHILLIP: Gas is not the only measure that people use.
FIELDS: Yes, but the people that are not around this set, single moms--
PHILLIP: Gas right now, is hovering about where it was a year ago. Hold on a second.
FIELDS: Would rather see a two in front than a three or a four as it was under President Biden.
PHILLIP: Sure, we're not arguing about gas prices.
FIELDS: We're not so sure, because these are real problems. PHILLIP: We're not arguing about gas prices. But when gas prices are
low, they're about where they were a year ago. But then the cost of powering your home, energy costs have been skyrocketing for a lot of different reasons.
This is not to blame Trump. A.I. is part of it, there are other factors. But the picture of people's economics, they don't think it is improving and gas prices is not enough.
It used to be 20, 30 years ago. It is not enough anymore to make people feel like they are better off.
JAMIE HARRISON, FORMER DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION CHAIRMAN: Abby, Americans don't care if Trump and Bessent think that the numbers look good. Because when they go to the grocery store, those numbers don't look good.
PHILLIP: And you know that well, because that's exactly why Joe Biden lost the election.
HARRISON: That's right.
PHILLIP: And Trump is making, effectively, the same mistake that Joe Biden made.
HARRISON: So it's so convenient for you to come out now and say that prices are too high. Where were you during the 2024 campaign?
FIELDS: Well, right now, Joe Biden put everything that he could in order to bring down costs.
HARRISON: The Inflation Reduction Act that did nothing to reduce inflation?
FIELDS: But let's look at what, the only thing that Trump got done was the Big, Beautiful Bill.
HARRISON: Which is going to be no taxes on Trump. And you know what? No taxes on overtime.
FIELDS: What it's going to be is a boon for the billionaires in this country. And the health insurance for Americans.
Most 25 Americans is going to go up. Health insurance for 25 million Americans are going to go up by hundreds of dollars.
FOROOHAR: I want to point out one thing, which is that the presidents have to carry the weight of what's happening in the economy. They're not always the cause of it, Biden was, frankly, not the cause of inflation in this country. There's a lot of big structural changes, cyclical changes.
I wouldn't blame it all on Trump either. But one thing that I find very interesting, Trump made a lot of political hay with Biden not paying attention to inflation. But what has Trump done recently? He's gone after meatpacking
monopolies. That is exactly what Donald, what President Biden's FTC did. Lena Conlin after meatpackers.
Trump is saying Trump Rx will have public underwriting of cheaper drugs. These are democratic solutions. So I just find it very ironic.
PHILLIP: Trump accounts are we're a Democrat.
HARRISON: But that's not the (inaudible).
PHILLIP: It was it.
HARRISON: And Cory Booker.
FIELDS: Then you should be able to agree that this is a good thing.
PHILLIP: Look, I don't think anybody's complaining about the Trump accounts. I think they were complaining about the tax cuts for the wealthy people.
FIELDS: But it's not because that's such a--
HARRISON: Tax cuts for the wealthy people.
FIELDS: -- Americans, working Americans are going to be the main beneficiaries of one Big, Beautiful bill. That is a fact.
HARRISON: No, that is not a fact.
FIELDS: The same thing you guys try to do when the President passes his first tax bill.
PHILLIP: Hold on, that may be the case.
[22:45:00]
FIELDS: Period.
PHILLIP: However, voters don't think that in this moment, they are feeling the benefit.
FIELDS: And I'm not going to look voters in the eyes. I'm not going to look my family in the eyes and say your problems are not real.
PHILLIP: And in fact, they are saying that Trump's policies have hurt them. They're saying that because they're going to the grocery store and buying a bag of coffee. And it's costing them more.
They are.
FIELDS: The American people are still wanting to buy four years of Democrat leadership in the White House. This president has been in office for 11 months. Give him some runway.
HARRISON: Ask the soybean farmers in South Dakota. FIELDS: He is turning this cargo ship around and the economy is
improving.
PHILLIP: Don't yell at me about that. You've got to tell the American people. They're the ones saying.
FOROOHAR: He is turning cargo ships around because he's, you know, his tariff policies are.
NAVARRO: We have 12 days left of open enrollment. The place with the highest percentage of ACA membership enrollment in the country is South Florida, a red state that voted very strongly for Donald Trump. These people are not going to be able to afford health care.
Because those people have gone to the Democrats.
FIELDS: Democrats failed them. No. And the Republicans are who control the White House--
HARRISON: The House and the Senate -- White House, House, and Senate Republicans.
Got to go. Rana, thank you very much for being here. We appreciate you.
We'll be back in just a moment.
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[22:50:00]
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PHILLIP: Tonight, Trump ally Elise Stefanik offers her most scathing critique of Speaker Mike Johnson's leadership in an interview with "The Wall Street Journal." She called Mike Johnson a political novice, losing control of the Republican conference ahead of the midterms. Quote, "He certainly wouldn't have the votes to be speaker if there was a roll call vote tomorrow," she said.
Now, the New York Republican is running for governor of New York, and she said, "I believe the majority of Republicans would vote for new leadership. It's that widespread." Johnson responded to all of that today, calling it a misunderstanding resolved before that embarrassing article came out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: I'm not sure how to comment on what Elise is doing or what the rationale behind this is, but you can talk to Republicans in Congress, 99.9 percent are united.
I talked to Elise late last night. We talked through what I think was a misunderstanding of the facts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Harrison, what do you think is going on here? Because Elise Stefanik, she was going to be U.N. secretary. She's U.N. ambassador, she's not going to do that anymore.
Now she's running for governor. Trump then met with Zohran Mamdani and they just loved on each other for like an hour and kind of torpedoed her main argument for running for governor and now she's lashing out at Mike Johnson. Is she trying to stage a coup?
FIELDS: Family dynamics get rough. Republicans are a large tent.
I will say Elise does deserve her flowers. She sacrificed a lot. You'd mentioned the position that she didn't take to make sure that we secure the majority.
But one thing I will say, I'll disagree with Elise. Mike Johnson is an incredible speaker. He's been a tremendous ally to this President.
And he's pushing forward legislation in ways that the President wants. I think it's a family dynamic that needs to just be hashed out, ideally behind closed doors.
But we've seen on the Democratic side, we've seen in the Republican side. This is what happens. Families are messy.
AIDALA: He said, I'm sorry, but he said, I'm questioning her rationale. I don't know the rationale. Look, she's going to be in a primary, I'm pretty sure, against the Nassau County executive here for the position.
So getting her on Abby Phillip show tonight is that I'm serious. That's like being shot name recognition--
PHILLIP: She's trying to get a little bit of attention.
AIDALA: -- a hundred percent.
NAVARRO: She's so happy that you think.
PHILLIP: She should probably come on the show.
NAVARRO: The Republican primary are watching us.
AIDALA: Listen, people texted me, three of them. I got three.
HARRISON: You know, I worked in house leadership for probably the greatest speaker of all time, Nancy Pelosi. Speaker Mike Johnson is not a good speaker. He is not a good leader.
PHILLIP: You don't think so?
HARRISON: No, I don't.
PHILLIP: I don't know. Look, I know you don't agree with his politics. He has more successfully wrangled this conference than his predecessor.
HARRISON: Abby, they've been out for two months of the year. I mean, the longest.
FIELDS: The Democrats shut the government down.
PHILLIP: Listen, I'm not arguing. Listen, I'm not arguing about like -- Managing this unruly conference is not an easy job.
HARRISON: And he didn't get anything done other than the Big, Beautiful bill.
NAVARRO: When things are going great, this type of thing doesn't happen. I think, you know, they've Republicans have lost some special elections and even the ones they've won have sent worrying, you know, alarms. There should be wake up calls for Republicans.
So I think people are questioning his leadership. And women, in particular, are questioning his leadership because it's not just Elise Stefanik, big Trump supporter. It's also Marjorie Taylor Greene, who also used to be a big Trump supporter, Lauren Boebert, even Nancy Mace.
So I would hope that he listens because there may be something going on there that needs to be addressed.
PHILLIP: Well, there's such a slim majority that they have in the House, and many of these Republicans are now retiring. They're going into a tough midterms.
I mean, maybe she's calculating that Republicans are going to be in the minority next year and that it's going to be an upheaval for leadership and that if she doesn't win the governor's race, that she could be up.
FIELDS: There could be a lot of calculations. If you look at the actual disagreement, it was a provision.
The President got involved, he spoke to both parties. The provision's in the bill. People are going to wake up tomorrow morning.
It's not going to be the FBI.
[22:55:08]
PHILLIP: You're talking about the thing that (inaudible) is fighting about? I'm not sure that matters.
NAVARRO: What do you think Elise Stefanik would be up for? I didn't follow your--
PHILLIP: For leadership.
NAVARRO: No, she won't because she's not running for Congress.
PHILLIP: Well, you're assuming that she actually wins the primary, which I don't know that--
HARRISON: Oh, she's going to run the primary for both governor and House?
AIDALA: I don't think you can do that.
HARRISON: She can't do that.
PHILLIP: But I mean, we don't know what this is all about, so we'll see.
NAVARRO: She's gotten a raw deal, though. She has.
PHILLIP: Everybody, thank you for being here. Thanks for watching "NewsNight."
You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media: X, Instagram and on TikTok. "Laura Coates Live," it's right now.
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