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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Boat at Center Of Double-Tap Strike was Not Headed To U.S.; FIFA Creates Award For Trump After Losing Out On Nobel; Alleged Pipe Bomb Suspect Believes That The 2020 Polls Were Stolen; Trump Wants U.S. Retirement System To Align With Australia's Standards. Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired December 05, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, the alleged pipe bomber says he believed the election conspiracy, as the FBI's number two suggests he pushed conspiracies for cash.
DAN BONGINO, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: I was paid in the past, Sean, for my opinions.
PHILLIP: Plus --
GIANNI INFANTINO, PRESIDENT, FIFA: There is also a beautiful medal for you that you can wear everywhere you want to go.
PHILLIP: -- the symbolism of putting a medal around your own neck or your name on an empty building, are they prizes or participation trophies?
Also --
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: If they are terrorists, when did Congress pass the authorized use of force?
PHILLIP: One branch is supposed to keep the other in check, but in the Trump era, is Congress neutered?
And the president says, Australia's retirement program could be a model for America.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: It's a good plan. It's worked out very well.
PHILLIP: But is the idea from down under, down bad here?
Live at the table, Kevin O'Leary, Ashley Allison, Hal Lambert and Adam Mockler.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
We are back in the test kitchen at the Food Network, our sister company, for Fall Fridays. We will catch up with that crowd a little later in the show.
But, first, let's get right to what America is talking about. There are new details and new doubts. Tonight, an apparent hole in the government's reasoning and a confirmation of what many lawmakers feared all along. CNN is exclusively reporting that the boat at the center of this week's double-tap strike controversy was not headed to the United States. According to intelligence collected by U.S. forces, that boat planned to rendezvous with a second vessel bound for Surinam and to transfer drugs to it. But the admiral at the center of this says that the military was unable to locate that second vessel.
What's more survivors? Were also seen waving something in the air. It's unclear whether those on board were surrendering or asking for help.
It is considered a war crime to kill ship direct people, which the Pentagon's Law of War manual defines as people in need of assistance and care, who must refrain from any hostile act.
Every day, it seems like there are more and more details that come up that call into question where this story started and all the explanations that have come out about them. And I think there are a lot of questions about, first of all, the destination of this boat. They've claimed that this is a direct threat to the United States. The boat wasn't headed to us. But then, secondly, waving in the air raises some questions about whether those men were trying to surrender.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, this is complicated on many levels. One, if we are going to war with somebody, Congress should be declaring that, and it's clear that has not happened. Now, the president does have authority to take out terrorists and do certain strikes, but because of the drip, drip, drip, the inconsistencies of information, it makes a lot of Americans, a lot of lawmakers have question marks.
I also think it is what type of country do we want to be. Do we want to be the type of country when people are waving their arms, look surrendering, or pleading for help, that we kill them? And I don't want to be that country. I don't want to be that country when a Democratic president tries to do it. And I don't want to be that country when a Republican president tries to do it.
And the biggest thing that is just so confusing is that it feels like Congressional members on both sides of the owls have massive questions about what is really happening. And it doesn't feel like this administration is ever going to tell them the truth.
PHILLIP: Hal?
HAL LAMBERT, FOUNDER AND CEO, POINT BRIDGE CAPITAL: Well, I mean, let's start with Tren de Aragua is a terrorist organization. That's who's running drugs out of Venezuela. President Trump designated them a terrorist group and that gives him the authority to go after them, just like President Obama did all over the world. He did hundreds of strikes in countries on land killing civilians. These are boats, by the way. They're small boats. I would doubt any of them are going directly to the United States. They're going to other places to drop the drugs off that then come to the United States.
PHILLIP: Wait, but doesn't that matter?
LAMBERT: It does matter.
PHILLIP: Doesn't it matter whether they were -- the drugs are headed to the United States? Because based on the route that they were taking, it would indicate that the drugs were not actually headed to us. They were more than likely headed to Europe.
[22:05:00]
LAMBERT: Well --
PHILLIP: So, shouldn't that matter too?
LAMBERT: Well, the admiral said that certain boats do come to the United States with drugs as well. They don't know. They said they could. So, we don't know where that particular vessel was going.
ADAM MOCKLER, COMMENTATOR, MEIDASTOUCH NETWORK: But that undermines --
LAMBERT: No. We know -- but we know that the terrorist organization that had the boat, that had the drugs on it, that was hit, that's a designated terrorist group.
MOCKLER: One of the administration's primary arguments with this was that these boats were an imminent threat to the United States.
LAMBERT: They are. They're killing 5,000 Americans a month.
MOCKLER: They're not headed to the United States.
LAMBERT: These drugs are killing 5,000 Americans a month.
MOCKLER: Also, I want to pose this question. So, the Coast Guard said earlier that 212 ships were intercepted with no deaths. That means we do have the ability to do this. 25 percent of those ships had no drugs. Are you okay with striking boats with no threat?
LAMBERT: The Coast Guard is patrolling off the coast of the United States.
MOCKLER: Are you okay with a 25 percent chance?
LAMBERT: Wait, that's not a 25 percent chance off the coast of Venezuela. They know for certain that these drugs are on these ships. MOCKLER: We have intercepted over 200 boats with no violence, whatsoever. We have the ability to do this. We are committing violence because --
LAMBERT: We are losing 60,000 Americans a year.
ALLISON: And that's awful. And that's awful. But here's the thing.
LAMBERT: We're not accepting these boats enough, obviously.
ALLISON: But they're not even coming to our country.
LAMBERT: Says who?
MOCKLER: The admiral.
LAMBERT: No. He said it was going to a boat off the coast that they never found. But they're not saying that on all these ships out there --
MOCKLER: So, can we justify striking a boat that's going to any country because, eventually, they may become -- it may become a secondary country where drugs go in the United States? What's the barrier here? How do you justify that?
LAMBERT: The justification is that they're a terrorist organization and they've been designated as such. And we can take them out just like Obama did with hundreds of strikes all around the world.
ALLISON: Just because Obama did, it doesn't make it right either.
LAMBERT: Well, but the Democrats back then --
PHILLIP: But also there was an authorized use of military force for Obama. He actually had one. You can argue whether or not it was right or moral or legal when it comes to the American citizen, but he had authorization to operate in that area.
Let me play, though, this was an exchange between Tom Cotton and our colleague, John Berman, earlier today about the underlying principle behind the strikes and whether even that basic one is legal. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: If they are terrorists, when did Congress pass the authorized use of force to attack them?
SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): John, the reason why your question is not well-founded, it's like saying, would Barack Obama be okay droning an American citizen when he was president.
John, the president has inherent authority as the commander-in-chief under the Constitution to protect America using our armed forces against a foreign terrorist organization. Congress has passed laws that allows the President to designate foreign terrorist organizations. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: John Berman also to asked about the idea that these are suspected drug boats. And when we suspect that somebody is trafficking drugs, using drugs, selling drugs, we don't allow police to just summarily execute that person. And, historically, as Adam has pointed out, the Coast Guard doesn't do that. They board the ships. They interdict the drugs. They collect the evidence. And, in many cases, they try these individuals and bring them to justice. Why can't we do that now?
KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN, O'LEARY VENTURES: So, what I've learned from all this, and this is not the first time this has happened, don't get on a boat with drugs in it. You get blown up. That's what I've learned from this. And I think at the end of the day, the administration was elected to stop the inflow of drugs that are killing Americans. I think they're doing that. We're having a very healthy debate about it.
But, basically, no one's debating whether there were drugs on this boat. Venezuela's sending drugs out everywhere. And where it gets transferred to what boat and when, who knows. But if you're on a boat full of drugs, you get blown up. And I think this may have some drug dealers saying, maybe I want to slow down on the boat drug stuff, which is really what the mandate of the government is.
The double-tap system started in Afghanistan years ago when you would paint a terrorist with a laser. They don't use snipers with bullets anymore. They paint them and they send very precise ordinance in, kill them right in a room, then they wait 20 minutes and nuke the whole place again. No one was complaining when that happened. They did that thousands of times.
And so I don't know why people -- listen, this is horrible. Killing people is horrible, period. But when the mandate is stop drugs flowing into America to stop killing Americans and you're a drug dealer in a boat, you might get nuked. I mean, that's what I've learned.
PHILLIP: I guess that's -- so where does this end? Are we going to be the policeman for the entire world, we're going to be bombing boats all over the world? Are we going to start bombing China where the fentanyl is actually -- the ingredients to fentanyl are actually coming from? Where does this end in your mind?
O'LEARY: Oh, China, different negotiation.
PHILLIP: No, I'm talking about bombs. Because you are setting the standard that we are policing the whole world. We're policing this entire hemisphere, whether the drugs are coming to us or whether they're coming to anyone else.
O'LEARY: Abby, we don't know where those drugs were going.
[22:10:00]
PHILLIP: Are we --
O'LEARY: We knew they left Venezuela.
PHILLIP: But are we going to be the police for all the drug interdiction for this world? Is that the standard?
LAMBERT: We need to stop Americans from dying every year that are in tens of thousands. I mean, they've killed more Americans with these fentanyl drugs than the wars that we've been --
PHILLIP: You keep saying, fentanyl. You keep saying, fentanyl. We're not even talking about fentanyl.
LAMBERT: Drugs in general. But let me just say this.
PHILLIP: Yes, I know, but you can't just be like drugs in general. Well, these drugs that we're talking about are -- it's cocaine. The drugs -- the fentanyl drugs that are in fact killing most -- causing most of the drug deaths in this country, they're not coming from drug boats from Venezuela or from Surinam. They are just not coming from those places.
So, I'm going to insist on a little bit of precision around this because I know that it's easy to just paint over it and say, oh, well, drugs, drugs, drugs. What drugs?
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: Where are the drugs that are actually killing Americans coming from?
LAMBERT: Fentanyl is mixed a lot of times with cocaine. So, that's the issue.
PHILLIP: Sure. But fentanyl is coming from Mexico. That is a fact.
LAMBERT: From China to Mexico.
PHILLIP: And so let's be specific about what drugs we're talking about here.
LAMBERT: Well, President Trump's looking at Mexico very closely with the cartels down there.
PHILLIP: And you would be fine with him bombing Mexico?
MOCKLER: Well, no one here is defending drugs coming into the country. But can I ask the conservatives on this panel, if I were to tell you that this puts U.S. troops at risk because we're lowering the rules, we're lowering the bar of engagement for other countries and they can therefore use our strikes as a pretext to kill U.S. troops, would you say that --
LAMBERT: Well, if our troops are sending drugs somewhere, I don't think that's happening. But the American people support us.
PHILLIP: I don't think they're going to use that standard. I don't think they're going to use that standard. ALLISON: I want to just point out what you were talking about, though, and saying I think there's this conflation of argument that folks do when they don't actually really want to have to defend the actions that this administration is doing. And it is saying that people who question the actions of doing one strike and then potentially doing a second strike for people who might have been surrendering or pleading for help, that because we have the courage to ask the question, we want Americans to die from drugs. No.
If you live in America, you've probably known someone that has had an overdose or a family member that has had an overdose or a family member that is incarcerated because of drugs. So, to conflate those arguments is intellectually lazy and I think we need to do a better job in this conversation. We are talking about war, our troops, killing people, escalating tensions with a president that's supposed to be the person of peace.
I think we should be asking more thorough questions and confidently, even on your own party. And I don't think comparing Obama and Trump. There are different situations. There are different fact patterns. Have the stamina to actually argue the case at hand.
PHILLIP: Speaking of peace, next for us, Donald Trump gets a peace prize that he has been asking for, but not the one that you're thinking. We'll discuss the surreal scene that unfolded in Washington today.
Plus, the pipe bomb suspect says that he believed the 2020 election was stolen as the FBI's number two now admits that he pushed conspiracies for profit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, while his administration is under scrutiny over alleged war crimes and losing key allies in the process, President Trump, he's now accepting a peace award that he has been calling for, but it's not a Nobel, it's FIFA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INFANTINO: Mr. President, this is your prize. This is your peace prize. There is also a beautiful medal for you that you can wear everywhere you want to go.
TRUMP: I'm going to wear right now.
INFANTINO: Okay. Let me hold -- ah, fantastic. Excellent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Yes, that really happened. The irony of putting a medal on himself for an award that was created just for him is not lost here, but Trump was honored nonetheless.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Thank you very much. This is truly one of the great honors of my life. And beyond awards, Gianni and I were discussing this, we saved millions and millions of lives. The Congo is an example. Over 10 million people killed and it was heading for another 10 million very quickly. And it just -- you know, the fact that we could do that India, Pakistan, so many different wars that we're able to end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The award is the latest in what the Bulwark calls his participation trophies, a 24-karat gold plaque from Apple, a different peace award from the Nixon Foundation, a gold crown from South Korea during the No Kings protest, a Rolex clock that's worth more than a hundred grand from Switzerland, and gold, silver, and bronze medals from the Olympic Committee to which Trump joked, can I say, I won them athletically?
Well, I don't know that he can say he actually won a peace prize, but it seems like the world is willing to humor him on this and that he's so committed to these accolades that it's almost like it's the prize of entry in Trump's world at this point.
MOCKLER: What you just described was Trump trying to turn the United States into a pre-constitutional era where he can act as a monarch that gives and gets gifts from other countries and companies, and FIFA just cashed in on that. They realize that they can placate Trump, placate his personality. And it's not a good look for the United States. It's honestly humiliating that other countries are treating our president like a child, like a baby.
This is like if I created the Mockler Peace Prize and I gave it to Adam Mockler right away. I am like, I'm just going to keep this medal on all night. I really like this.
Our president is an actual child, and other countries are treating him like a child while giving him gifts to placate him for policy. This should scare everybody who cares about the Constitution, and FIFA is just one piece of the pie.
[22:20:01]
PHILLIP: He also, I mean, loves to put his name on everything. He put his name on the U.S. Institute of Peace. Erick Erickson, a conservative commentator and radio host, said, had Obama done this, I would say what I say now, this is third world kleptocracy behavior.
I don't know. I mean, it's kind of hard to argue with that because why would he put his name -- why would he put his name on an empty building, Kevin.
O'LEARY: A different take on the whole thing. This was a P.R. stunt, not stunt, but event to bring over the largest -- one of the largest money makers in sports. Remember, music and sports are bipartisan. Soccer called football everywhere else on Earth is the largest sport on Earth. And the U.S. has never really embraced this sport. Even though every kid in school plays soccer, this is a chance for FIFA, which makes most countries pay hundreds of millions of dollars to get the World Cup.
My guess is Trump paid nothing because FIFA wants to get -- wait a second. He wants to get this bit -- he's bringing in millions and millions of dollars, the tickets, all the merch, the massive amount of media that's coming in the United States, which gets the lion's share of the games. Canada's involved. Mexico's involved. They had both the leadership there.
PHILLIP: Yes, but that was happening before all of this world.
O'LEARY: But listen --
PHILLIP: The World Cup is happening.
O'LEARY: I mean, this is phenomenal business for the United States.
PHILLIP: Yes. I guess like here's the thing, the World Cup was going to be here whether Trump won the FIFO award or not.
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: Okay. The World Cup was coming to the United States, and, actually, Trump has been threatening to send immigration enforcement to the World Cup. So, maybe they're trying to kind of get him to back down on some of that other stuff. But it was coming regardless. So, this is not related.
ALLISON: You said it right, Kevin.
O'LEARY: Kumbaya moment. You loved it.
ALLISON: It was a stunt.
O'LEARY: Kumbaya.
ALLISON: And he's -- and Trump is good with stunts. And every child, including myself, did play soccer when we were little. The only difference when I was little, I didn't get a participation trophy. And today, our president did.
O'LEARY: Well, you didn't play long enough.
ALLISON: Right, because that's what everybody makes fun of this generation is that we aren't tough enough in Harlem.
They were gifts. I'm sorry. Like there are really serious things happening in this world. When I saw this today, I laughed. It was a good laugh. It was a good full belly laugh. Because the way he picks up the medal, he puts it on himself. It just like it writes itself. SNL will have a field day. I'll tune in tomorrow. Please make me laugh.
PHILLIP: So, the other -- here's another thing. The National Park Service has changed its schedule for next year's dates when you can come into the park for free, usually on federal holidays. Now, you can come in for free on Trump's birthday.
ALLISON: Birthday, I knew it.
PHILLIP: but not MLK Day or Juneteenth, which is a federal holiday. What are we doing?
ALLISON: Why?
LAMBERT: You know, I mean, Trump is great at trolling the left. I mean, this is -- that's what the name on the building is all about too. I mean, it's just that, you know, he shut down that sinkhole of money that was helping no one, actually. And we save $50 million a year and he is like, you know what, I'm going to put my name on the building to remind people.
PHILLIP: Why do you think it trolling? I mean, you could --
LAMBERT: Because it drives the left crazy.
PHILLIP: But if you argue that everything is trolling and then suddenly we have Donald J. Trump's name on everything in this country like we do in --
LAMBERT: It's not on everything.
PHILLIP: I mean, to quote Erick Erickson, in third world kleptocracies. Then suddenly it's not just trolling anymore. Suddenly it's a real thing.
LAMBERT: My gosh, we have congressmen who have named buildings and roads and cities all about themselves, all over the country.
ALLISON: Can we talk about the national parks though? I'm going to give you opportunity to distinguish two facts here. You aren't saying disrespecting MLK or ignoring the day when the final slaves who actually were still enslaved learned they were being free is trolling the left. We can agree that in this country, slaves being free and MLK did a service. That's not trolling the left, right? Or is it?
LAMBERT: I don't think that's trolling the left, but I'm just saying what -- when you say MLK, you don't get in free. Have you ever gotten in free for MLK day?
PHILLIP: Yes. It's a federal holiday.
ALLISON: So, he stopped it to make the left bad.
MOCKLER: You know, my favorite example of Donald Trump trolling the Democrats is probably when he called for the execution of Democrats a few weeks back, or when he called us traitors, or when he said we had to be taken care of.
LAMBERT: He didn't call for the execution of Democrats.
MOCKLER: He absolutely called for Elissa Slotkin to be hanged. But I want to ask Kevin a question. You essentially tried to be -- you get the most charitable possible interpretation of what's happening here, that this is a business deal.
O'LEARY: It is.
MOCKLER: You do not see the slippery slope when the president is able to give and receive gifts in a very transactional way. Like what if there is a Democratic president who's in power next, and he's not as favorable to a company that you care about and --
O'LEARY: Hold on. Wait a second. Every president in the United States is gifted everything. There's all these fights, generations.
MOCKLER: There's no way.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Well, look --
O'LEARY: Just because he's wearing a medal around his neck, he brought in a hundred million dollars of merchandise into the U.S. economy.
PHILLIP: To Kevin's point --
O'LEARY: This is what I say. Thank you.
PHILLIP: Presidents do get. But they're supposed to give it to the State Department. If they want to keep it --
O'LEARY: But you know he's not going to give the Rolex clock to the State Department.
PHILLIP: I didn't say any of that.
ALLISON: You know he's going to hang that medal in the Oval Office.
[22:25:00]
O'LEARY: I can't wait to visit the clock.
PHILLIP: Kevin, I didn't say any of that. I'm just letting you know that this --
LAMBERT: I want to see the medal, yes.
PHILLIP: So, we will find out. Usually, there's a report. We'll find out later whether or not he they kept it. And if you keep it, you have to pay for it.
O'LEARY: What about the 747? Do you remember that one? I love that gift.
PHILLIP: So, I think that will be a really important question. Who gets that plane? Because he says it's not going to be Air Force One. O'LEARY: You know what, Abby, I'm getting the plane. I'm going to buy it.
MOCKLER: Presidential library gets it right.
O'LEARY: Listen, if he's not using it, I'll buy it.
PHILLIP: I mean, I think that they may be trying to --
MOCKLER: Well that's good example -- that is pure corruption. That's how --
O'LEARY: And I want the American people to get the proceeds of my purchase. How about that, right here on the show?
PHILLIP: All right. Next for us, the D.C. pipe bomb suspect says that he actually believed those election conspiracies about 2020, this as one of the feds who caught him, admits that he was peddling conspiracies for a paycheck.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:32]
ABBY PHILLP, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, a twist in the cracked cold case. Sources tell CNN that the man suspected of planting pipe bombs the day before the January 6th riots told investigators that he believed the 2020 election was stolen. D.C. U.S. Attorney Jeanine Pirro was asked about that today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANINE PIRRO, U.S. ATTORNEY, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: He was disappointed in various aspects of the election, but this guy was an equal opportunity bomber. He put a bomb outside the Republican National Committee and the Democrat National Committee. He was disappointed to a great deal in the system, both sides of the system.
And for me as a prosecutor, my job is to prove what his intent was in placing those pipe bombs and what he intended to do and what we can prove, and we can prove that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So what she's saying, I think, fundamentally is correct in terms of what they have to do, because it is important to know, perhaps, although there's probably a lot more that we need to know, that he, at least partly, was motivated by his disappointment about the 2020 election. But why place the bombs where they are?
And I do think that this disrupts a lot of conspiracies that have been out there about this pipe bomber on the right, which is that this guy was some kind of FBI plant, that it was a government conspiracy to frame January 6th rioters. That's very much not the case.
O'LEARY: It's a tragic outcome of mental illness. Who would do this? This is horrific.
But it does also show, even though the FBI has gotten so much criticism over the last few years, they got their man, maybe. I mean, it's obviously an accusation, but you want to know the agency can do this work, that they don't stop, they're relentless. They finally find out who did this.
But I don't think the motivation makes any sense. It's clearly a distraught. I mean, the poor guy, he's got to be mentally ill.
He's blowing pipe bombs. Remember the Boston bomber? It was horrific what happened there.
It's a form of mental illness to do this to people, but you want the FBI to win. Even if you don't like them, you want them to win. And in this case, I think they're winning.
MOCKLER: You said this was essentially a tragedy of a mental illness, and I absolutely agree. But my problem is that a lot of very impressionable Americans who were distraught around this time were taken advantage of by a President who was using incendiary rhetoric.
Before the election even happened, he said it was going to be stolen. He took the stage on election night before the votes were counted and said, the election is stolen from me. Mike Pence took the stage after and kind of walked it back, he then tried to place fake slates of electors, tried January 6th.
The President's rhetoric directly led to impressionable Americans thinking the election was stolen and committing heinous acts like tasing cops in the neck.
O'LEARY: He wants to blow up both sides.
ALLISON: I don't know all the facts. None of us do.
I don't know if this is actually an issue of mental illness, because I think there are cases where mental illness plays a place, and then there are just really evil people in the world. And I don't like to conflate the two, and I don't know where this person falls.
O'LEARY: I guarantee you this, it's not good on his resume.
ALLISON: Well, but I think it's not just he was disappointed with the outcome. It was that he believed the outcome was fixed and stolen. And that is not true.
LAMBERT: Can I put a different theory potentially on this? This guy's clearly warped in his head. He gets arrested. He realizes, well, the Trump DOJ is in charge.
President Trump is the president of the United States. Maybe if I tell him it was because I thought the election was stolen, they'll take it easy on me. In his warped mind.
No, but I'm just saying, he put bombs on both sides. So now all of a sudden he's a truth guy and everybody should believe what he says?
ALLISON: Maybe he put a bomb at the DNC because he believed the Democrats stole the election because Republicans and conspiracy theorists pushed that, and he put the bomb at the RNC because the Vice President, who was about to be sworn in, was going to ride by that area. There are many scenarios that the prosecution will have to play out this case.
But I'm going to say the thing out loud that I think everyone is not saying and is actually surprised, and why I think Jeanine Pirro is actually saying it. I think the fact that this man is a black man is surprising to people. I think people thought this was going to be a white man that did this.
They were going to be able to say he was a part of the progressive left. And the fact that it's a black man that is saying, I too was susceptible to conspiracy theorists that the president and conservative podcasts were pushing that this election was stolen is a fact that they were not expecting, and now everyone is on their heels and they're trying to spin it.
[22:35:06]
And I think that might be also why you think, let's not believe his actual story right now. He's trying to get both sides.
PHILLIP: What about what Ashley is saying? Do you think, is she right that you're positing that he's not right in the head but just right enough to kind of play the U.S. attorney against itself?
It just seems like it's a little too clever by half.
LAMBET: Well, he was clever enough, honestly. He bought the material for this over months at a time, so he was clearly trying not to get caught.
He didn't go out and buy all of it. He obviously had some intellect to do that and try not to get caught. And then when he finally did get caught years later, he's like, well, I'll just tell them it was because I was upset about the election.
MOCKLER: If Trump never said the election was stolen, would these bombs have even been planted?
I feel like that's the question.
LAMBERT: Absolutely, I don't think that had anything to do with him planting those bombs.
O'LEARY: You don't think it had anything to do with him? The truth is it's a life wasted. The guy's going to spend the rest of his life in prison.
Let me play what Dan Bongino said. This was back as recently as January 2024, compared to what he is saying now about this whole thing. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN BONGINO, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: There is a massive cover-up because the person who planted those pipe bombs, they don't want you to know who it was because it's either a connected anti-Trump insider or this was an inside job. This was a setup, I have zero doubt.
Folks, you're not going to walk into our capital city, put down two explosive devices and walk off in the sunset. Not going to happen.
We were going to track this person to the end of the earth. There was no way he was getting away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I'm not going to play, but Bongino then said on Fox on Thursday that now he's paid to tell the truth, but before he was paid to just say whatever. And that is also pretty irresponsible because even to this day, they've caught this person that they think did it.
You've got Thomas Massie, a congressman, a Republican, saying three things "I'll never believe about the January 5th/6th pipe bomb story. The bomber was a lone wolf, the FBI was this incompetent for four years on the case, and perpetrators were pro-Trump."
They're just not going to believe it because it doesn't fit the narrative. That has been peddled, by the way, by Dan Bongino.
O'LEARY: Let him go through the process that we have, a due diligence and a process here, which is great for justice system, and then we'll find out what the truth is. He will testify one day before he goes to prison for the rest of his life. It's tragic.
I think it's definitely mental illness. Both sides got in risk here. He didn't have a motive, he was just deranged.
PHILLIP: We don't know. We just don't know yet. I take your point that we will find out.
He may or may not testify, but we will find out more because there's not really been any factual information laid out about this case just yet. When we do, I don't know. Some people still might not believe it.
MOCKLER: There's this treadmill of conspiracy theories that people run on. It's like whack-a-mole.
There's always a new conspiracy theory to pop down, but I think Dan Bongino's rhetoric, his conspiracy rhetoric, proves my point so perfectly about this MAGA ecosystem. So Trump told incendiary lies about an election that were proven wrong in 60 different courts, and then Dan Bongino has to run down the treadmill and find a different theory that actually this was like an inside job with Democrats doing this. I don't know.
So there's always some excuse, and what do you think impressionable Americans who may have mental illness or may be distraught or have economic trouble, how do you think they respond to being gaslit by people in power, like the President, like Dan Bongino?
These are lies being told to the American people.
O'LEARY: I think the man has been at least found.
ALLISON: Yes, of course.
Again, but we have to be willing to be able to hold multiple thoughts. I actually think this makes me go back to the first segment when there's just so many questions and we don't know if people are telling the truth. We know the 2020 election was not stolen, and yet that propaganda was pushed, those conspiracy theories were pushed.
MOCKLER: By the President.
ALLISON: By the President and by people around him, and by people that are currently in the administration who are going to be prosecuting the individual who just has been arrested.
LAMBERT: Which might be why he would say that's the reason he did it.
ALLISON: Which might be the reason why you shouldn't hire an elected official, particularly the President of the United States.
PHILLIP: We will find out. But the idea that this person is part of another conspiracy to frame himself for this is wildfire.
ALLISON: Also, are you saying that if he agreed that the election was stolen that this administration would actually take it easy on Donald Trump?
LAMBERT: No. But his warped mind, he thinks that might help him.
PHILLIP: Maybe he might get a pardon, who knows, from Donald Trump.
Next, should America's entire retirement system be changed? Donald Trump thinks Australia has the best model for it. We'll debate that next.
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[22:40:00]
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PHILLIP: Tonight, President Trump floats a potential shakeup in how Americans save for their retirement. He's looking very seriously, he says, at parts of Australia's retirement system where employers are required to put the equivalent of 12 percent of a worker's pay into private retirement accounts.
It's worked out pretty well for the Australians. In total, the pool has roughly $4.5 trillion in it. And whether a program like that could work in the United States is obviously very unclear, given the population is close to 13 times the size of Australia's.
[22:45:08]
Kevin, you were saying this is similar to what the Canadians have. Do you think this is a good idea for the U.S. to look at?
O'LEARY: It works well in the Nordic countries as well if you have a small population. It's a form of corporate tax.
And that's really what it is. It's almost like a VAT tax. And so you build it into the economy, it really works well in resource-rich countries.
Any country takes up 16 percent royalty on extraction of energy out of the ground, including the United States. If you have a small population, you're allocating a portion of that towards their retirement.
Markets worldwide, by the way, that money is indexed in the S&P 500. Most of the money on earth, $0.52 of every dollar, comes in the S&P every morning at 10:00. We give 8 percent to 12 percent average per year over 200-year returns.
The American economy is paying for the Australian retiree. That's what's going on. So we have a heavy burden here to keep our economy on fire because everybody invests in it.
They like democracy, they like America, they like large S&P 500 countries.
People don't watch the money. I do. The fund flows come out of everywhere into the United States and New York every morning, $0.52 of every dollar.
Thank you, America.
PHILLIP: Adam, you're a young person. I think a lot of people of your generation probably don't even think there's going to be a Social Security around when it's time to retire.
When you hear things like this, and you see what other countries are doing, and for forcing the issue, because in Australia it's mandatory. Every person gets this account created. Do you think it's a good idea?
MOCKLER: It's not the worst idea I've heard. It kind of reminded me of the $1,000 baby accounts where it's like this is actually something that's feasible. It's good.
But I just think right now we have more pressing issues than reorganizing the entire way Social Security and the economy works.
Young people, people across the United States, are having trouble accumulating capital, especially young people. We're having trouble accumulating capital in the form of housing or in the form of investing. And due to that, actually most of the time we're negative in capital due to student debt or medical debt.
Due to that, you see a lot of younger people like Gen Z-ers or millennials turning against the system. We're not loyal to a system that hasn't been loyal to Gen Z-ers thus far.
So when a lot of conservatives talk about Zohran Mamdani or young people being super disenfranchised and disillusioned, being socialist, it's actually really explainable by just looking at the way the system has worked for young people, or hasn't worked for young people.
LAMBERT: I would agree. Young people do have issues, right?
They have the student loan debts, they can't afford housing, they can't afford a lot of things. It's a big problem. President Trump's focused on trying to work on that.
Let me just finish with this. I think the Australian model would be difficult to do in the United States.
They're talking about 12 percent off the top of its employees' pay goes into this retirement thing. Which, by the way, you can't get until you're 65 years old. So it certainly doesn't help people today, young people trying to buy a house or trying to save money, it's going to come off the top.
And those companies are going to have to reduce pay to pay for that 12 percent. So the employees paying for it either way is just kind of a forced savings mechanism.
PHILLIP: Kind of interesting, because I think Republicans are so averse to any sort of tax on corporations. And effectively, as Kevin said, this is basically a corporate tax. One thing to note, Australia started at around 3 percent, and then they gradually increased it to 12.
But, I mean, if you put it that way for people on the left, as a 3 percent tax to pay for retirement for every worker in this country, and for people on the right, it's a retirement system that doesn't require government money. Maybe, actually, there is a path there.
ALLISON: I have to say that Adam is considered young. I'm, like, used to be young. And even the used-to-be-young crew is, like, struggling to buy homes, find stability, worried about their retirement. I think what this offering is an opportunity to think about the systems that we have in place and what is no longer working for the American people in this current economy.
And I think we need to have more of that. So often in Washington, I even think this was the case in the Big, Beautiful bill, it was, like, strip social welfare programs is what the Republicans always want to do, and keep them is what the Democrats always want to do. And they just go back in the pendulum swings, and nobody's life really improves either way.
We need to be thinking about innovative ways. We need to not think that America has all the answers to everything. Pulling things from other countries that are doing things well, whether it be in health care, whether it be in education, and think about a new blueprint for what we need in this country to take us into the next century.
PHILLIP: Kevin, would you be fine with a 3 percent tax on top?
O'LEARY: I'm excited about the model here in New York, because starting January, when Mamdani gets in, I'm spending a lot more time here. I'm getting free transportation, free food, and a free hotel. I love this guy.
He's my guy. I'm so excited.
ALLISON: Mamdani's your guy? Okay.
PHILLIP: But, look, I mean, 3 percent, would you flee New York over that? Would you flee America over that?
O'LEARY: No, but I think what's great about America is competition of states. If you don't like it, you're uncomfortable in retirement, you leave here, you go to somewhere warmer, which is basically what's happened. 1200 licenses a day out of Massachusetts, New Jersey, and New York.
[22:50:09]
Where? To my town, Miami. I'm saying, no, stop coming. Stop.
Mamdani's the number one real estate agent for Miami right now.
PHILLIP: Although, there was a report, I mean, not to pivot to Mamdani, but there was a report that the luxury real estate market in New York is very much still on fire even after Mamdani was elected.
LAMBERT: There's probably a lot of international buyers.
PHILLIP: I'm not so sure.
LAMBERT: A lot of international buyers buy in New York.
PHILLIP: Why would international buyers come to New York to pay more money?
LAMBERT: Because they want to move. They don't have to pay taxes here. They're not going to be residents.
They just put their money here. It's a way to move money out of a foreign currency and put it here.
PHILLIP: Well, for the rest of Americans, there are some troubling warning signs. Consumer spending stalled in September, this is a delayed report as inflation remains stubborn.
I mean, we're getting toward the end of the year. It's the holiday season. Black Friday was successful because people were looking for sales.
O'LEARY: Best ever. 208 million people.
PHILLIP: Yes, people were looking to save money because they need to save money right now. That's going to be the story of it. ALLISON: But for Black Friday, when you looked at the actual number of
goods that were sold, there were less goods sold but more money made because things are more expensive. That's actually what happened on Black Friday.
O'LEARY: Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Cyber Monday, 208 million people bought online because the algorithms on all the platforms were the best ever. One extra billion dollars of revenue. I know that because my companies were part of that success.
ALLISON: Revenue does not mean money saved, though.
MOCKLER: Also, you can cherry pick one economic staff, but the fact is, inflation has gone up since Trump took office. Unemployment has gone up since Trump took office.
A lot of the macroeconomic indicators that people rely on aren't doing too well. So, yes, you can cherry pick small things like this has gone down, but when you walk to the grocery store, beef is high.
O'LEARY: Cherry pick this for 40 points off an all-time high in history on the S&P 500. The number one economy on earth. Are you kidding?
MOCKLER: It's growing at a slower rate than it did under Biden.
O'LEARY: We're number one on earth.
ALLISON: Who's benefiting in that number one?
O'LEARY: You are. Everybody that's retired is.
MOCKER: Trump has crashed the market like four times.
O'LEARY: How can you bash number one in the world?
PHILLIP: Thank you, guys. Next for us, nightcaps - dream guest edition, and possibly some real nightcaps from Chef Andy, who is headed our way.
But first, a quick note. New streaming episodes of Variety's "Actors on Actors," candid conversations between Hollywood's hottest actors. You can find them exclusively on the new CNN app.
We'll be right back.
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[22:55:00]
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PHILLIP: Welcome back. Chef Andy Liang, recipe developer at the Food Network, is here with us to tell us about these incredible plates.
Chef, this is a personal recipe of yours. Tell us about it. CHEF ANDY LIANG, RECIPE DEVELOPER, FOOD NETWORK: It is.
They're called Wuxi spare ribs. They're ribs braised in soy sauce and a touch of sugar. I served it with steamed dried rice and sautAced green beans and just glazed over reduced sauce.
Great for this comfort meal.
PHILLIP: Love it, yes, especially this freezing cold weather that we're having.
O'LEARY: I'm giving Chef Andy 11 out of 10 on this.
PHILLIP: Yes, it is so good. And by the way, I've also seen Chef Andy on social media showing you how to cook, which is worth watching.
Go on the Food Network's Instagram page and you can see him do it. You can also scan the Q.R. code on the screen for these Wuxi spare ribs and that recipe.
So moments ago, Italian tenor Andrea Bocelli performed for the president and the first lady over at the White House. So for tonight's Nightcap, who would your dream performance at your White House be? Chef, you're up.
LIANG: I mean, I would totally love Lady Gaga with one mind. Yes, we would love Lady Gaga any time.
PHILLIP: Kevin?
O'LEARY: It's got to be Steely Dan.
Absolutely, the White House and Steely Dan would go so well together. "Josie," all the classic songs in the White House would be great. For sure.
PHILLIP: All right, Adam.
MOCKLER: I said Sabrina Carpenter because she ratioed the hell out of Trump and I thought this was Trump's White House, but I'll also have her perform at my White House. That's fine, too. That's fine, too.
PHILLIP: Ashley?
ALLISON: I mean, no surprise. Beyonce, but with a surprise appearance by the one and only Dolly Parton singing "Jolene." Oh, that would be epic.
PHILLIP: Epic.
LIANG: Epic.
PHILLIP: Actually, no, yeah, I think Beyonce, she did the inauguration.
ALLISON: Inauguration, but not at the White House. PHILLIP: That's right. Okay, Hal.
LAMBERT: I don't think we're politically aligned, but U2. I think I'd like to have Bono there, I'd like to have the band. And see those guys.
PHILLIP: Yes, I like you, too. Okay, all right.
I would have Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande give a "Wicked" performance.
LIANG: Yes.
PHILLIP: You're with me, Andy? No crying, okay?
But it would be incredible, it would blow the roof off the White House, if there is still a roof on the White House when they get there.
All right, everybody, go home, pull up this recipe, cook it for your family over the weekend.
[22:54:58]
Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." You can catch us anytime on social media and our roundtable show, "Table for Five," tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. Eastern, right here on CNN. "Laura Coates Live" is waiting for you right now.
