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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Sidelines Bovino, Deploys Border Czar To Minneapolis; New Video And Analysis Contradict DHS Account Of Citizen Shooting; Gov. Tim Walz (D-MN) Says, Trump's ICE Assault Is Un-American, Illegal; FBI Head Argues Prohibiting A Loaded Gun To A Protest; Former Presidents Obama And Clinton Calls Out Americans To Speak Against ICE. Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired January 26, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, a watershed moment for gaslighting in dark times.
KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: An individual arrived at the scene to inflict maximum damage on individuals and to kill law enforcement.
PHILLIP: Does the spin of Alex Pretti's death prove there are bounds to brazenness?
Plus, Tim Walz calls Donald Trump's actions un-American, illegal and delivers a fact check on the worst of the worst narrative.
Also --
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: You cannot bring a firearm loaded with multiple magazines to any sort of protest that you wanted.
PHILLIP: -- how gun rights are apparently not universal for some on the right.
And as Presidents Obama and Clinton tell Americans to raise their voice, others call for raising the power of their wallets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we should be talking about a national general economic strike until this is over.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Paul Mecurio, Batya Ungar-Sargon, Cari Champion, Arthur Aidala and Congressman Adriano Espaillat.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Philip in New York. Let's get right to what America's talking about. In the Trump era, we are used to the brash and unapologetic style of the president and his allies, never back down, never apologize. But this time the gaslighting is not working. After the deadly ice shooting of another American citizen in the streets, there's an obvious U-turn being made tonight by this White House. The controversial Border Patrol chief that has been on the ground has now been sidelined. And tonight, DHS has suspended his social media accounts. And in his place, Border Patrol -- or Border Czar, ICE Czar Tom Homan, who reportedly disagreed with some of the more controversial tactics, will be sent to Minneapolis.
Also, the president's tone has softened toward Minnesota Democrats. He's saying now that he had productive calls with both the governor and with the mayor today.
The reason for this is pretty obvious. The videos of the shooting of Alex Pretti completely contradict the administration's initial accounts of what happened. Stephen Miller was quick to call Pretti, quote, a would-be assassin and a domestic terrorist who tried to murder law enforcement. And here's how Kristi Noem and Gregory Bovino characterized the incident just minutes after the shooting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NOEM: An individual approached U.S. Border Patrol officers with a nine millimeter semi-automatic handgun. The officers attempted to disarm this individual, but the armed suspect reacted violently. Fearing for his life and for the lives of his fellow officers around him, an agent fired defensive shots.
GREGORY BOVINO, U.S. BORDER PATROL CHIEF: The agents attempted to disarm the individual, but he violently resisted.
This looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement.
NOEM: This individual went and impeded their law enforcement operations, attacked those officers, had a weapon on him, and multiple dozens of rounds of ammunition, wishing to inflict harm on these officers coming brandishing like that and impeding their work that they were doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now just to recap, according to them, a, quote, would-be assassin approached and attacked those agents, brandished a nine millimeter gun looking to inflict, quote, maximum damage and massacre law enforcement.
Now, I want you to tell me if that's what you see when you watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What the (BLEEP) did you just do? What the (BLEEP) did you just do? What the (BLEEP). (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, as public opinion turns dramatically, what if this tragedy had not been caught on video? Where would we be right at this moment, Congressman? And do you think that this is a moment, maybe rare in the Trump era, where you see a majority of Americans standing up and saying, no, you can't lie to us.
[22:05:10]
REP. ADRIANO ESPAILLAT (D-NY): Well, I think that this is MAGA insanity. They want us to believe something different than what we see with our very own eyes. And -- but this is some of the behavior that has been happening in the barrios across the country, where including American citizens are being detained. 170 American citizens have been detained. I visited four kids in Monterey, Mexico, including a ten- year-old little girl with a brain tumor that are out there, and they're U.S. citizens.
So, this is finally hit home and people are seeing it for what it is, and I think there's a backup, but it is a bit too late.
PHILLIP: How much, I think, long-term --
PAUL MECURIO, HOST, INSIDE OUT WITH PAUL MERCURIO: Can I just say, I'm not surprised --
PHILLIP: -- (INAUDIBLE) the Trump administration because of how they handled this?
MECURIO: Well, the fish stinks from the head down. I'm not forgiving Bovino and Noem, but I'm not shocked by this. When you have a president look us in the eye and say, oh, January 6th, they were just taking a tour of the Capitol. Yes, and they went on and had lunch. They've been taught that they can say anything and get away with it. Oh, wait a minute, be elected president.
So, what ends up happening? They come out, they get a script, they know their boss is going to like the script, and we're off and running. And now this one blew up in their face because a man gets shot ten times and people are now protesting in the streets. And I don't know about you, but if you look at history, this feels like the Vietnam War protests. And that's when Nixon finally started to get the message and Johnson that things were going south, and that's what's happening here.
PHILLIP: So, a couple of really pointed editorials, the New York Post says, however noble the mission it is to get rid of the worst of the worst, the broad support for it is now ebbing fast. Mr. President, the American people didn't vote for these scenes and you can't continue to order them to not believe their lying eyes. The Wall Street Journal Editorial Board seems to suggest that either many ICE agents aren't properly trained, or they're so on edge as they face opposition in the streets, that they are on a hair trigger. Either way, this calls for rethinking how ICE conducts itself, especially in Minnesota as tensions build. It isn't just about Alex Pretti. I think what these editorials point to is questions now being raised, including on Capitol Hill, about ICE's tactics. That's what these protesters have been protesting about to begin with.
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, NEWSNATION HOST, BATYA!: I found Secretary No's comments on Alex Pretti to be unforgivable. Everything I've heard about this person suggests that he was a wonderful human being and to desecrate the dead like that, utterly, utterly unjustifiable. And I don't see how a person should be allowed to remain in public service after lying so blatantly to the American people.
Now, that said, it's very clear that the president is on a very different page. He refused to say that he supports the ICE agent in the shooting until we have more information. He wants to know what's on the footage, which I do as well. And I hope that that gets exposed.
That said, Alex Pretti was obviously not murdered. He was in a scrum that ended in a bad shoot. And I think this is a moment that we should all try to find our way back to each other as Americans and come off the edge. And I'm really hoping we can find that common ground here because I think that this is really a moment where the president himself is saying, we've gone too far in our separate corners and we have to find a way to work together. And I was so pleased to hear that he had these great conversations with Frey and with Walz.
PHILLIP: I guess I hear what you're saying about Noem, but on that last point about how you're saying he wasn't murdered, I think a lot of people disagree. I think one of the big issues that a lot of Americans have with how this is handled is this idea that the conduct of the ICE agent can just be chalked up to a mistake and that there are no consequences.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, and it wasn't --
PHILLIP: And what are the lessons then for anybody else in that situation? I think there are probably a lot of people who would say it's not just a mistake. There's a lot of poor decision-making, maybe even negligent decision-making. That should be --
CHAMPION: He can't walk back. He being, the president, can't walk back what he's already, to your point earlier, what he actually started. They've lost the plot. The plot was deportation. The plot was to get rid of violent immigrants who were taking jobs and harming people in this country, et cetera. The plot wasn't to kill American citizens. He was murdered. It wasn't a scrum.
[22:10:00]
He was murdered. We have to start using the words --
UNGAR-SARGON: You literally just saw the scrums.
CHAMPION: No.
UNGAR-SARGON: We all watched it. CHAMPION: We watched him try to protect another woman. And in the process of him trying to protect another protester --
UNGAR-SARGON: He was shot while he was being arrested for having --
CHAMPION: So, I'm not going to argue that with you. But the point of the matter is I'm not -- we're not doing this. We're not lying. We're not lying. We're not lying.
ESPAILLAT: This is a manifestation of --
CHAMPION: We're not lying today. Hold on one second. They've lost the --
(CROSSTALKS)
CHAMPION: I was still talking. I was still talking.
PHILLIP: Let me let Cari finish her thought.
CHAMPION: The reality is that we've lost the plot. He said that what they would do, what these ICE agents were supposed to do, they are not doing. They are intimidating people. They are scaring people. They are bullying people because they have been told to do that. Noem got up and lied. Bondi sent a ransom note. We'll get to all that later. Everyone did what they had been told to do. This is the result of what they had been told to do.
PHILLIP: To that point, it's the result also of Donald Trump's policy.
CHAMPION: Of course, that's what we're saying.
PHILLIP: Say what you will about what Donald Trump is doing and saying right now, they are carrying out what he ordered. And if he didn't order it, who did? He's the president.
CHAMPION: He can't tell he didn't know.
PHILLIP: 3,000 federal agents in a city of less than 500,000 people, by comparison, Chicago is 3 million people. There are more ICE agents in Minneapolis than anywhere in the continental United States right now.
CHAMPION: They've lost the plot.
PHILLIP: There's something that's happening about that particular thing.
ESPAILLAT: Abby, I visited Chicago and Minnesota. And what I see there is a culture of aggressiveness and violence in the agency. What makes an agent shoot a guy that's down in that fashion should murder him? It is a culture or violence that has --
PHILLIP: Let me let Arthur respond.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I just -- I want to talk about the law, you know, if that's okay, okay? So, for about this particular incident, believe it or not, the federal law about a federal officer discharging his or her weapon and killing someone is actually stricter than the state law. The circumstances have to be so severe, the threshold of what an officer, a federal officer, has to prove, like there was no other options, there was no choices, either that officer or someone else was about to be killed or seriously, physically injured. In state law, even in Minnesota, there are other exceptions, but a federal law enforcement officer is really under the DOJ policy only supposed to discharge their weapons under the most -- there's no other choice.
Now, I'm probably about to disqualify myself to be his criminal defense attorney if I get that phone call from that particular ICE agent, I don't think, from what we have seen, it is going to rise to that level. I don't think that it's going to be credible, even if he says, I reasonably believed he was reaching for that gun and he was going to kill one of my fellow officers. I don't believe, once everything gets broken down, it's going to show that.
But, Abby, there's another problem here. The other problem is the ICE supervisors would not let the local authorities into do a regular crime scene, to preserve a crime scene --
MECURIO: They had a federal warrant.
AIDALA: -- to do their regular investigation. And my understanding is the FBI, who's very well-trained to do these types of investigations, are not even there doing their investigation.
So, it's not only that the local law enforcement is being kept aside, but federal law enforcement, the FBI, is not conducting an investigation as to what happened. And, legally, you used an important term. You used the word negligence. And at the very least, this may be a case of what's called criminally negligence homicide. He wasn't looking to kill anyone, he wasn't looking to hurt anyone, but he acted in a way that was so negligent, it rises to a level of criminality.
PHILLIP: Let me just play James Comer. I mean, this is, again called, coming from inside the House, so to speak. James Comer, the Republican, he's saying that maybe Trump needs to send ICE elsewhere. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): If I were President Trump, I would almost think about, okay, if the mayor and the governor are going to put our ICE officials in harm's way, and there's a chance of losing more, you know, innocent lives or whatever, then maybe go to another city.
I think the situation's only going to get worse and I really think that there are so many cities in the United States that have issues with criminal illegals that I think there would be -- they would be better received in other cities.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: Let me just ask Batya to respond to that. Is it time for ICE to withdraw? I mean, I'm just talking about the numbers. 3,000 are in the city right now. Is it time for federal agents to withdraw at those levels from the city of Minneapolis?
UNGAR-SARGON: I mean, maybe at those levels, but they cannot abandon the program because you cannot allow a group of, I'm not talking about Alex Pretti here, who I think was trying to impede officers, but not in a violent way, but we have seen a lot of violent protesters in Minneapolis.
[22:15:04]
You cannot allow a group of violent protesters to override the will of the people who voted for Donald Trump to carry out a mass deportation agenda, which, by the way, still has 50 percent support among the popular vote.
PHILLIP: I just want to --
UNGAR-SARGON: So, they cannot cave, in my view. Maybe there's too many of them there, and that's up to the president, but you cannot cave to violent people who are trying to just impede the very thing the majority of American --
PHILLIP: Let me just note --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Well, we're going to continue in just a moment. But just to note that polls are a snapshot in time and those polls that you're citing that have a majority support.
UNGAR-SARGON: New York Times this Friday, 50 percent still support mass deportations.
PHILLIP: A majority of Americans disapprove of what ICE is doing.
UNGAR-SARGON: Correct.
PHILLIP: That is also a relevant fact.
UNGAR-SARGON: They still support mass deportation.
PHILLIP: And many other polls also show that when you ask people about the specifics of who they want to deport, there's not as much support for deporting every single undocumented person.
UNGAR-SARGON: As of last Friday, there was 50 percent support for every single illegal migrant.
MECURIO: With all due respect, you can't --
PHILLIP: There are plenty of Americans right now who were saying that's changing. Plenty of Americans right now who are saying, we don't like what we're seeing and we want it to change. So, that's also relevant as we talk about this. But we're going to hit pause because we have a lot more to discuss on this.
Tim Walz is calling Trump's actions un-American and illegal. He's also disputing the right's central claims that they aren't cooperating with the feds when it comes to ICE detainers.
Plus, many of the same conservatives who supported people like Kyle Rittenhouse and the McCloskeys, they are now saying that protesters shouldn't be armed. That includes the head of the FBI.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tim Walz is calling out the Trump administration and accusing it of lying as it shapes its narrative about how Minnesota enforces immigration policies. In a new op-ed for The Wall Street Journal, Walz rebukes the Trump administration's claim that the state jails and prisons are releasing the worst of the worst. He writes that, in reality, the Minnesota Department of Corrections honors all federal and local detainers by notifying ICE when a person is in custody, not -- and is not a US citizen.
Now, Walz adds that there is not a single case of the department releasing someone from state prison without offering to ensure a smooth transfer of custody. He then slams ICE's tactics, saying that what the agency is doing is not effective law enforcement. It's chaos, illegal, and it's un-American.
Now, this is our third central claim about why ICE is in Minneapolis in the first place. There are lots of so-called sanctuary jurisdictions, but the state of Minnesota is not one of them. And that's the point that Tim Walz is making, that the state prisons, where they house the worst of the worst, who are serving out sentences for committing crimes, they hand over prisoners to ICE.
AIDALA: And, hypothetically, that's why we haven't seen any of this in New York. Hypothetically, that's what I've been told, is that's what the deal that was cut in the last mayoralty is that, okay, we're going to let you go. Look at Rikers Island, which is the only prison in the five boroughs. We're going to let you go into the courthouses, but we're not going to let you pull people out of Target. And they cut that deal here in the city and that's why we didn't see any of that stuff.
And the difference is whether you're in Rikers Island or you're in a courthouse, there's paper documentation of somebody's status. Just so you know, in the courtroom now, Abby, the immigration comes out of the judges about five times during a regular court proceeding. Are you a U.S. citizen? Do you understand there are ramifications if you're not a U.S citizen? I'm like, Judge, his grandparents were born here, yes, but they are very focused on that. But if you're not, there are people waiting out there to grab you.
There is no doubt this is political. There's no doubt that President Trump and Walz and its Minneapolis and Minnesota for a reason. But I will tell you this, and we just analyzed that video, these ICE agents are not trained for this. The NYPD handled all the George Floyd riots, which were horrific, they handled the Columbia takeover. I was here with Anderson Cooper. They quelled all of it without harming anyone, anyone. Not one person got hurt. They're trained to de-escalate. The ICE agents are like trained for war. So, they're going in and they're just using the most severe tactics.
MECURIO: To follow up on that, it is political, it's retribution, and that's why this is happening. Everyone is forgetting bad immigrant, illegal immigrants out of this country. The bad guys, this has gone beyond that. Let's all recognize that the viewer at home, respect that their intelligent enough to understand that correct.
Texas has 2 million plus illegals, 650 ICE agents. Florida has -- but please -- and I let you finish. Please let me finish. Minnesota -- Florida has 1.1 million illegals, 350 ICE agents. Minnesota has 130,000 illegals, 3,000 ICE agents. And they're about to send them to Maine, because, apparently, drug dealers come over from Mexico and they go, all right, listen, we could go to Florida where it's really warm and it's sunny, and they're like, no, let's go to Maine, where it's 50 below, they don't pronounce their Rs (ph) and everybody gorges on lobster.
CHAMPION: You're right.
MECURIO: Just respect the American public. If you're a conservative right now, you have to look at this and go, this is beyond the pale on any, any level. And so to say that this is anything but retribution and politic, he's targeting Democratic cities, he loves to be the tough guy, he threatened to have people that heckle him during his speeches.
[22:25:01]
Remember, he would say, take him out and beat the crap out of him. So, it that's what we are dealing with you.
PHILLIP: Batya?
UNGAR-SARGON: Oh, it doesn't matter how many ICE agents that are there. It matters how many deportations are there. The vast majority of the deportations have been from Texas because it has the most number of illegals in it.
So, 350, 650 ICE agents were able to deport hundreds of thousands of illegals.
MECURIO: Why is it proportionately inverse?
UNGAR-SARGON: Because it is a red state.
MECURIO: Just explain to me why it's the inverse.
UNGAR-SARGON: I'm literally explaining to you why it's the inverse, because they're able to be effective because the local law enforcement is helping them and allowing them to work together.
There were so many lies in Tim Walz's op-ed. I just want to go through that.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me just ask you about that.
UNGAR-SARGON: Yes.
PHILLIP: Do you really believe that 3,000 ICE agents are necessary to deport maybe a maximum population of a little over a hundred thousand undocumented immigrants in one American city? Do you really believe that that's true?
UNGAR-SARGON: Well, do you think the massive amount of backlash they face --
PHILLIP: And do you really believe that that's the reason that that many ICE agents are, or federal agents are in Minneapolis?
UNGAR-SARGON: -- given the total refusal of the local law enforcement to assist them, I don't think that ratio is so crazy.
PHILLIP: But do you think that's really why they're there in the first place?
UNGAR-SARGON: I have no idea. I mean, they started after the --
PHILLIP: Because let me play what Jacob Fray -- Frey, excuse me, the mayor says he thinks happened with --
UNGAR-SARGON: And can I just go through all of the lies that are in Tim Walz's op-ed?
PHILLIP: -- why they decided to surge immigration officials in his city. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR JACOB FREY (D-MINNEAPOLIS, MN): But I think that the initial impetus to come to Minnesota was go to Minnesota, arrest a bunch of Somali people. And then they get here and they realize that the Somali people that would be arrested or deported are all legal. They're American citizens. You can't do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ESPAILLAT: That's correct.
PHILLIP: So, this was supposed to be about fraud, but now it's about immigration, that the Somalis are Americans, so you can't do them. So, we're going to do everybody else?
UNGAR-SARGON: So, the idea that therefore the a hundred thousand should be able to stay?
PHILLIP: No, I'm just asking you why the show of force in this particular city right now. And according to Trump and DHS officials, it's actually because of the fraud. But is it because they thought that the people committing the fraud were foreigners when they're really Americans?
UNGAR-SARGON: Possibly, but then what is wrong with then deporting the hundred thousand illegals and the criminals?
MECURIO: Well, why are we sending ICE agents to investigate fraud?
UNGAR-SARGON: I just want to go through a few of the falsehoods that Tim Walz told in that op-ed. For example, he says ICE has access to state prisons and therefore they're not depriving them of any access to any criminals. But what he left out was the fact that they are -- ICE prohibited from accessing the county jails where pretrial detention happens, which is where the vast majority --
PHILLIP: Well, hold on a second
UNGAR-SARGON: -- of the illegal criminals are being held.
PHILLIP: Well, let's just address that for just a second. Because Tim Walz --
UNGAR-SARGON: So, his own A.G. issued (INAUDIBLE) banning Minnesota Police from honoring immigration --
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let's just address it. Tim Walz is the governor of the state. He's not responsible for the county jail. The sheriff --
UNGAR-SARGON: He's responsible for not lying in an op-ed in a Wall Street Journal.
PHILLIP: But hold on, hold on a second. The sheriff of Hennepin County, which is just one county, there are many counties in Minneapolis, some of them do coordinate with ICE. Just one county that you're referring to doesn't allow that coordination to happen.
Here's one of the reasons why that might be the case. Because there have been several counties in Minnesota that have been sued by people who have been detained for longer than they were legally allowed to be detained. And the state -- the county then had to pay out settlements to those people as a result of those suits.
So, it's legally fraught. It's a legal -- hold on, hold on. It's a legally fraught issue. First of all, they're talking about jails. You're talking about prisons. It's a legally fraught issue whether you can -- somebody has been accused of a crime, maybe they've been charged, they've been jailed, and then they've been ordered, released, then you keep them. Some places do that, but there's a risk there.
AIDALA: Your law license is on the line there.
PHILLIP: So, I mean, I'm just laying it out for people because I want people to understand this is not -- it's not as simple as the politicians want to make it seem. And so I think that's important, right?
CHAMPION: But you said something -- you were onto something just a minute ago by asking her the why, and you led to it. There's another reason why they are there and we're just not talking about it. Are we -- the other beat of this question is, what about this ransom note that A.G. Bondi sent. She said, okay, you want us gone? Here are the things that we need.
MECURIO: Why do you want the voter rolls? What does that have to do with anything?
CHAMPION: What do you want with the voter rolls and the Social Security? You want privileged, priceless information of individuals there because he understands what goes on. This is about -- I don't want to talk about whether or not Governor Walz is lying in an op-ed. I want us to stay on track. Why are they even there in the first place? And what are they really doing because they're not deporting.
UNGAR-SARGON: To get illegal immigrants out of the country, like the president promised he would do and the majority of Americans voted for it. It's very simple.
ESPAILLAT: Let's go back to the beginning of this. You know, Trump says he's going to deport violent criminals.
UNGAR-SARGON: No.
ESPAILLAT: Well, he says he's going to be -- you know, the impetus of (INAUDIBLE) he said violent criminals. He comes down the escalator, he calls Mexicans rapist.
[22:29:59]
And he says that he's going to deport violent criminals, and there's been a 222 percent increase in the detention and arrest of immigrants that have never, ever committed a crime.
These are the folks that take care of our kids, the elderly. These are the farm workers that work on farms, and the American people are upset about that. And not only that, but this is no longer about a green card holder or a TPS recipient or a DACA recipient, this is now about the American people, the two people that got shot and killed are American citizens.
American citizens, 170 of them, have been detained. 20 of them have remained incommunicado for a significant period of time. Kids --
PHILLIP: And that doesn't include --
ESPILLAT: -- that are U.S.-born are being deported.
PHILLIP: That doesn't include necessarily --
ESPILLAT: So the American people are upset.
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, NEWSNATION HOST, "BATYA!": With their parents, who -- with their parents, but not to leave them in their countries.
PHILLIP: It also doesn't necessarily. That, even that number I don't think even captures the scope of it because there have been many Americans who've been detained for shorter periods of time, for whatever reason, and maybe aren't counted in the arrest records, and then they were released when it was found out that they were citizens.
But, one other thing I just also want to note, The "New York Times" has a very important story tonight, also saying 100 refugees with no criminal records from about a dozen countries were arrested in Minneapolis by immigration of agents in recent weeks. They were then flown to Texas for interviews and then left when in one case, left when it was determined that there was no reason to hold her, left without anything, any ability to get back home.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it's--
PHILLIP: So, they're rounding up a lot of people. Some of them are illegal immigrants. Some of them are perfectly legal, have done absolutely nothing wrong, and stranding them somewhere in Texas.
ESPILLAT: Not only are they rounding up people, they're profiling as well. So I think if you and I were to walk outside, it's more probable that I will get stopped, and detained than you would.
PHILLIP: I just have to say, let me just also note -- let me just also note that S- Citizenship and Immigration Services says in a statement that they are verifying the merits of all refugee applications and ensuring no issues were overlooked, and they're doing so apparently by detaining people, flying them to another state, and then--
PAUL MERCURIO, HOST, "INSIDE OUT WITH PAUL MERCURIO": Well, to your point, immigration's been a problem, and people think that the bad guys have. Everybody, left and right, the bad guys have to go. The execution of what's happening now in Minneapolis has gone too far, and I don't understand where the disconnect, where as a conservative-
UNGAR-SARGON: No one should, no one should be disagreeing with that. No one should be disagreeing with that.
MERCURIO: Let me put it to you this way: Just imagine it's January 6th, and eight, nine Capitol Police have a guy on his stomach, and they shoot him 10 times, one of the rioters. Do your party would be at the forefront of--
UNGAR-SARGON: I don't have a party. I'm not a Republican.
MERCURIO: Okay, well, the conservative party would be -- and I'm not a Democrat or a Republican, but the point is, I'm living in an upside-down world--
UNGAR-SARGON: I would probably be okay with that if they were beating up a cop, you know?
MERCURIO: I'm being told by a Republican administration, "You can carry a gun legally, but you can't bring it to a riot. But you can bring it to a protest, but when there's a riot that benefits the January 6th, benefits Republicans, you can bring any weapon you want."
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The double standard.
PHILLIP: Well, that is the perfect segue to what we are about to talk about next.
Next, how Republicans feel about carrying guns seems to determine -- be determined by who is carrying them. We'll debate that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: The Trump administration is suddenly changing its tune on the Second Amendment after it was revealed that the man ICE shot in Minneapolis was carrying his weapon legally. Here's what Kash Patel, the FBI director, is saying, breaking it down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: No one who wants to be peaceful shows up at a protest with a firearm that is loaded with two full magazines. You cannot bring a firearm loaded with multiple magazines to any sort of protest that you want. It's that simple, you don't have that right to break the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AIDALA: Well, that's not the law.
PHILLIP: Oh, really?
AIDALA: It's not the whole law.
PHILLIP: Oh, really? Okay. There's more. There's more.
Here, okay, so he says that, but what about this? What about Mark and Patricia McCloskey, the St. Louis couple who pointed guns at Black Lives Matter protesters in 2020? Well, for that, they were invited to speak at the RNC that year.
Or in Michigan, when a protester showed up at the state capitol because they didn't like COVID lockdowns, President Trump later voiced support for them.
Or the January 6th rioters, many of whom were armed and ready to fight over the results of the 2020 election, they all got pardons, every single one of them.
And then there's Kyle Rittenhouse, the teenager who killed two people and shot another during protests in Wisconsin. Conservatives have propped him up to a hero, including Kash Patel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATEL: Where is that due process standing cause of the left now in the Rittenhouse case?
This also came on the left's call as the city was burning down to defund the police and bury people's constitutional rights if you were named Kyle Rittenhouse. The current President of the United States, President Biden, called Kyle Rittenhouse a white supremacist before he ever had his day in court.
How can the Democratic Party's leader and the leader of the free world come in and say, "You haven't had your day in court. You haven't had due process, but I, the strongest person on planet Earth, am going to pre-judge you"?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:40:08]
PHILLIP: So yes, I mean, he, his agency is actually supposed to be investigating this crime scene, and he's saying that.
AIDALA: Well, can I just talk about the law, what the law is?
CHAMPION: Yes, please.
AIDALA: The law is you are allowed in that state to have your weapon at a protest, unlike the New York law. You are not allowed, even if you have a legal carry permit, you are not allowed to go to a parade, a rally, a protest carrying that licensed firearm.
I represented a woman who showed up with one, and she was caught with a gun, and you're not allowed to do that. But in that state and in that city, you are allowed to do that. So when, when the FBI director says that's illegal, it was not illegal.
Obviously, we all wish he didn't bring that weapon that day, because if he didn't, he'd be alive right now, but he was not breaking the law by bringing that weapon there.
MERCURIO: And Noem and also Bovino said, they're all on the same script, said the same thing. You should, you cannot, not should not, you cannot bring a gun to a protest.
So I'm going to read the Second Amendment. I'd like them to listen at home. There will be tests.
"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Unless you're going to go to a riot, then you can- no, it doesn't say that. There are no exceptions here.
There's nobody-- Someone didn't do this, and then do a thing like that.
PHILLIP: If the, if the Second Amendment's not your thing, here, here's what Charlie Kirk had to say about it in March of 2018: "The Second Amendment is not for hunting. It is not for self-protection. It is there to ensure that free people can defend themselves if, God forbid, government became tyrannical and turned against its citizens."
CHAMPION: Interesting, ding. Now we have it.
So now that we've explained, thank you for explaining the law. Thank you, and thank you. So clearly they were within--
Well, he was well within his right to have a firearm. But I would like to also point out what we also weren't talking about, that I also can't stand seeing, when these ICE agents are telling people to turn their cameras off. You are allowed to record, full stop.
People don't know that. They feel intimidated by that law. When you have someone in your face yelling at you and coming at you in a way where you feel--
He knew, pretty knew. This is why I'm holding my camera just like this because I know that I am entitled, know your rights, to do this. And they are telling these people, this double standard that they are giving is not going to die.
MERCURIO: If they had body cameras, it's cause and effect, that we would need to see that.
CHAMPION: If we see, if we see that body camera footage, God bless. I think we're going to get it right around the time we get the Epstein files. I doubt that we'll ever see it.
But I'm telling you right now--
AIDALA: I'm not sure it exists, just so you know. They don't have... The ICE officers--
CHAMPION: Why don't you think it exists?
AIDALA: Because ICE officers are not obligated. They're not obligated to-
CHAMPION: Did not Ms. Leavitt say that today, that it was there?
AIDALA: I don't know.
MERCURIO: There may be one or two that have cameras, but the-
AIDALA: They're not obligated, like NYPD officers are obligated to wear them.
PHILLIP: Yes.
AIDALA: They should be.
PHILLIP: Okay, yes, and just to, just to clarify, I mean, the existence of cameras don't necessarily mean that they were on, so that's important. But there is another camera, there is Alex Pretti's camera that we have not seen yet, and that's going to be important.
But it is interesting, I mean, Congressman Justin Amash was, like, saying this on X. He says, "We're finding out which Republicans are simply cosplaying as Second Amendment defenders." Why is it suddenly that MAGA is willing to turn on the Second Amendment at this particular moment?
UNGAR-SARGON: I've only seen people making fun of Kash Patel, so, in MAGA. So you had, you know, Dana Loesch, who used to be the head of the NRA, the NRA itself, Gun Owners of America, and I've just seen, like, congressperson after senator after senator coming out and just being like, actually, no, he did have this right--
PHILLIP: Yes, but I'm talking about people--
UNGAR-SARGON: --and let's not make, you know, fools of ourselves here, so.
PHILLIP: People like Todd Blanche, Kash Patel- I mean, in the administration--
UNGAR-SARGON: In the administration, I believe I cannot understand it.
PHILLIP: -- like this, this guy, he's the Los Angeles's top prosecutor in DOJ. He says, "If you approach law enforcement with a gun, there is a high likelihood they will be legally justified in shooting you. Don't do it."
UNGAR-SARGON: Well, I think, I mean, I don't know what he was thinking, but if you get into an altercation with the cops and do not inform them that you are armed, things could go south, as we saw tragically with--
MERCURIO: You don't have a legal obligation.
UNGAR-SARGON: No, I'm not saying that you have a legal obligation to it, but horrible things could happen, could be a consequence. But obviously, this is, like, a ridiculous thing to say. I will say, I am overjoyed to see liberals and Democrats standing up for the Second Amendment; I think this is the moment of common ground that we've all been waiting for.
MERCURIO: Just don't get too crazy now.
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, look, as we were, we were discussing in the break--
UNGAR-SARGON: You just brought up the Second Amendment.
PHILLIP: I don't, I said, I don't think that the, the, you know, public opinion suggests that liberals don't believe in the Second Amendment. They just think that there are limits to it.
But I don't even know that they believe that one of the limits is that a death, showing up in an interaction with cops with a weapon is a death sentence. I'm not sure that liberals believe that either.
AIDALA: Well, it's not, it's... Look, you know, this is what I do every day, Abby. I've got a lot of murder cases on my plate right now. It's not a wise move.
[22:45:00]
Like, if he, look, it's a tragedy what took place. It's horrible, and it shouldn't have happened, and he should be alive right now. And I alluded to it earlier, had he left his weapon at home, I don't think we would be having this conversation.
CHAMPION: You really, you really think so?
AIDALA: I, yes, well, yes.
CHAMPION: You really believe that if he would have--
AIDALA: I think the reason why they shot him was they saw his gun. No, but he saw Renee Good didn't have a weapon.
ESPILLAT: He saw Renee Good get shot in the face.
AIDALA: No, he did, by the law, Congressman, by the law in Minneapolis law, it says an automobile can be deemed a weapon if it is being used to harm an officer. That's in the law. It says a car --
MERCURIO: Well, do you not think --
AIDALA: -- can be deemed a weapon.
MERCURIO: Can I just ask you a question? Do you not think that everybody there is so heightened after seeing the violence and a woman get shot in the face, and you have a legal --
CHAMPION: 100 percent.
MERCURIO: Like, hey, let me finish.
AIDALA: Go ahead.
MERCURIO: And you have a legal to carry.
CHAMPION: 100 percent.
MERCURIO: This is part of the problem sometimes when we have these conversations on T.V. Hang on a second-
AIDALA: Go ahead --
MERCURIO: Wait, just put yourself in the --
CHAMPION: Common sense.
MERCURIO: Joe Smith at home.
AIDALA: Go ahead.
MERCURIO: You're seeing people get shot in the face, an innocent woman. You go, I got a gun. I'm going to take it, who knows? AIDALA: And you're going up against ICE, the guy in shade guns. I
agree with you.
MERCURIO: He did not go in.
AIDALA: I agree with you, so why bring it? So but use those words because- No--
MERCURIO: When you use those words-
AIDALA: That's my point. Why even bring it?
MERCURIO: I'm going to turn it to you. When you use those words-
AIDALA: Why even bring it?
MERCURIO: He's spinning it.
AIDALA: No, I'm not spinning it. Why would-
MERCURIO: Because he's afraid.
AIDALA: Of who, the ICE guys? Hold on a second. They'll execute him if he takes that weapon out.
PHILLIP: Guys-
AIDALA: He knows that.
PHILLIP: Listen, we have to move on to the next segment but I just want to say this.
His actual conduct, this is not a generic situation.
AIDALA: Correct.
PHILLIP: What he actually did and did not do is super important. Did he ever unholster that gun?
AIDALA: No.
PHILLIP: The answer is no.
AIDALA: Never brandished a gun? No.
CHAMPION: Present a threat? Was he violent?
PHILLIP: Did he actually engage ICE officers?
AIDALA: No.
PHILLIP: When you look at the video, he was actually putting his hands up because he was being pepper sprayed.
AIDALA: Absolutely.
CHAMPION: Exactly, you got it.
AIDALA: Yes.
PHILLIP: So his actual conduct is super important. It's not just a generic, you have a gun, it's a risky situation. That's a sad thing.
What did he do and what did he not do?
CHAMPION: He was doing exactly what he was supposed to do.
AIDALA: Abby, he was not the aggressor. You can ask a lawyer. I know, but if you ask a lawyer, the cause and effect under the law, had that gun not be in his holster, I don't think this would have happened.
CHAMPION: I don't agree with that.
MERCURIO: But, you still have a legal right to have it.
PHILLIP: We still have a little bit more ahead. Let's get to it.
So next, how should Americans speak up if they are angry about this whole situation? Some people in Hollywood are calling for what they're calling a national economic strike. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, Presidents Clinton and Obama are condemning the killing of two American citizens by federal agents in Minnesota, and calling on Americans to raise their voices. Also entering the fray, Hollywood stars. They're calling on Americans to use the power of their wallets to protest ICE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDWARD NORTON, ACTOR AND FILMMAKER: I think what they're doing in Minnesota with the strike needs to expand. I think we should be talking about a national, national general economic strike until this is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Batya, is that fair game?
UNGAR-SARGON: I love to hear a multimillionaire telling Americans to stay home from work to protest people trying to rectify an open border that he, and President Obama, and President Clinton had no problem with when Joe Biden opened the border and let 10, 15 million illegals in this country, and they had nothing to say.
And now these multimillionaires sit there, full of their piety, and say, you stay home from work, you make no money to protect these illegals and illegal criminals that they're trying to deport. I find this to be just horrible.
MERCURIO: Can I just say something? You slipped something in there that was quite good, but not right. But, you know, these people who are trying to keep people from being deported, the people are upset because two people got shot to death in 17 days who were American citizens protesting.
Let's not move off the point. I think the money idea is perfect, because Trump values money and popularity, and if you can -- and that's why he's making up with Tim Walz and the mayor. He does this every time.
He breaks all the china and then he's like, guys, come on, he realizes he's unpopular, then he tries to make up.
ESPILLAT: How about, you know, a general strike-
PHILLIP: Agree, yes.
ESPILLAT: A general strike is something that's used across the world, and is very effective. The Civil Rights movement used economic tactics to pressure the right way. So I think that this is a proposal that should be looked at.
But in addition to that, I think that ICE, as an entity, is gripped by this violence. We should take a look at what they should take a pause. I think they should be dismantled.
Take the mask off.
AIDALA: Absolutely.
ESPILLAT: Make sure that they protect sensitive locations, deadly force should be looked at, training and recruitment practices. All these things are on the table.
CHAMPION: That's the answer, and you told me about it. You are absolutely right.
ESPILLAT: All these things are-- we need to dismantle it.
PHILLIP: Let me ask you this: If Democrats don't get those changes in this funding bill, would it be fair game to shut the government down over this issue?
ESPILLAT: Well, I think it's fair game for the Senate not to give them the votes. No, absolutely. I voted against the $11 billion.
MERCURIO: I can't imagine--
CHAMPION: So is it fair game? I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
ESPILLAT: It's fair game. At this point, America is upset. We hear you, America, and the Senate should deny them the votes.
They run the House as they run the White House. PHILLIP: We're going to leave it there, everyone. Thank you very much
for being here.
Next for us, why the president's mind seems to be elsewhere during this weekend of crisis.
[22:55:01]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: As outrage was intensifying across America over the videos of Alex Pretti's death, it didn't appear that President Trump's attention was solely focused on Minneapolis. Because on Truth Social, he addressed a bunch of different topics, including his frustration with the NFL's kickoff rules, his wife's new movie, and urging people to go see it, his multimillion-dollar ballroom at the White House, his desire to criminalize fake polling, and even his hope that China doesn't mess with ice hockey in Canada.
[23:00:09]
However, it does appear that he was watching T.V. this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: I get the sense that the President, if you look at his comments in the "Wall Street Journal," I think he wants to take a look at this thing.
He's going to look at the video. I get the sense he wants to de- escalate. You know, I would, I would hope that maybe a fresh set of eyes, Tom Homan, going in there, taking control of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And 21 minutes later, President Trump posted he was doing just that, sending Tom Homan over to Minnesota.
Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
