Return to Transcripts main page
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Federal Indictment Unsealed in Case Against Don Lemon; Mayor Karen Bass (D-Los Angeles, CA) Speaks on Don Lemon's Arrest; L.A. Mayor Reacts to Anti-ICE Protests Erupting Across City. Millions of Americans Join Anti-ICE Protests; DOJ Releases Millions of Pages from Epstein Files. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 30, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, freedom of the press, the latest casualty in Trump's retribution war. Don Lemon and other independent journalists arrested.
GEORGIA FORT, INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST: Federal agents are at my door arresting me.
PHILLIP: What it means for the First Amendment?
DON LEMON, INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST: I will not stop now. I look forward to my day in court.
PHILLIP: And as protests erupt around the country, a DOJ civil rights investigation is launched into the Pretti case.
Plus --
TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: Today, we are producing more than 3 million pages.
PHILLIP: 3 million pages of Epstein files released with references to Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and Bill Clinton. What's being revealed tonight?
Live at the table, Pete Seat, Jemele Hill, Adam Mockler, Lydia Moynihan, and Elie Honig.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, an attack on the First Amendment. Tonight, freedom of the press is under siege after the arrests of Independent Journalists, former CNN Anchor Don Lemon and Georgia Fort for their coverage of an anti-ICE protest that erupted and interrupted a church service in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Now, federal agents took them and two others into custody today at the direction of Attorney General Pam Bondi, who was calling their actions a coordinated attack.
Now, the indictment alleged that they oppressed, threatened and intimidated congregants and pastors as they reported on the demonstration. Lemon and Fort say that they were just doing their jobs as journalists. That is something that Lemon made very clear in his live stream tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I'm just here photographing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you okay with --
LEMON: I'm not part of -- I'm not part of the group. I'm just here photographing. I'm a journalist.
So, we're here just chronicling and reporting. We're not part of the activist, but we're here just reporting on them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, the White House was quick to pounce on Lemon's arrest. He is a longtime Trump critic and they posted this image with a caption when life gives you lemons along with chain emojis.
Now, Lemon was in court today making an initial appearance, and he and Fort are both now vowing to fight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: There is no more important time than right now, this very moment, for a free and independent media that shines a light on the truth and hold those in power accountable.
FORT: I should be protected under the First Amendment, just like all of the journalists who I've been advocating for too.
Do we have a Constitution? That is the pressing question that should be on the front of everyone's mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: This is very troubling for a lot of people. Elie Honig, look, I think there is a complicated criminal picture potentially for the protesters who staged this demonstration. But what do you think the picture is for the journalists who are there and especially, you know, Georgia Fort, you could see her microphone was, you know, labeled for her independent news organization. Don Lemon, he's a journalist that is known around the world. He was reporting live from the church. What do you make of that?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think the cases against Don Lemon in Georgia Fort are doomed. And I will grant that I think the cases against the other people who interrupted that church service are valid, and I think they did commit those crimes. But the reason that the case against Don and Ms. Fort are different is because of the First Amendment. You cannot charge a journalist for doing their job. It is not a crime to cover a crime.
And just to put it in context, let's just go through the sequence of how this charge came about. DOJ first goes to a magistrate judge who says, I am going to issue the criminal complaint against three of the people who went into the church, but not the complaint against Don Lemon. Then DOJ says, well, let's appeal that up to the chief district court judge who issues this scathing letter saying, this is not even a thing you're asking me to do. I asked every other district court judge in this district, and they said they'd never even heard of it. You're rejected again. And then they get a grand jury to indict today.
[22:05:02]
So, it's on the third try, they come back with this indictment against Don Lemon. It is doomed. I'm telling you. It's the easiest prediction I've ever made.
PHILLIP: And that appeals judge not only said, why are you coming to me with this, but also said two of the five protesters were not protesters at all. Instead, they were a journalist and his producer. There is no evidence that those two engaged in any criminal behavior or conspired to do so.
Pete, the Trump administration was always pushing the envelope. But in this particular case, this is crossing a line. The Constitution is very clear. There is freedom of press in this nation, and that right is just as valid as all the others in the Constitution. Why are they doing this and shouldn't more people be speaking out about it?
PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I know you save unpopular opinions for Table for Five, which everyone should watch on Saturday mornings, but I'm going to start with an unpopular opinion, and that is calling Don Lemon a journalist is like calling AOC a free market capitalist. He is an activist. Look at his YouTube page. Here's a couple of titles of recent videos. One, this is how to deal with ICE goons. Two, the viral MAGA idiot. Three, Don goes off on MAGA and ICE.
PHILLIP: So, is it your position that anybody -- is it your position that anybody who expresses opinions is not a journalist? Is that your position?
SEAT: Even if you --
PHILLIP: No. I mean, well, let's deal with the accusation that you're making that he is not a journalist.
SEAT: I think he shed the veneer of fake journalist a long time ago.
PHILLIP: Because we have in the press a lot of different kinds of journalists. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, the New York Post, they've got editorial boards, where people are expressing opinions all the time. They're not journalists?
SEAT: I think that Don Lemon is not a journalist,
PHILLIP: But why?
SEAT: But if you think --
PHILLIP: Is it because he's expressed --
(CROSSTALKS)
SEAT: If you believe that he's a journalist, I still think that he is wrong in this instance.
PHILLIP: But, Pete, you're not saying a lot.
SEAT: I just don't. I think he's an activist.
JEMELE HILL, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Well, you just don't is not a reason.
SEAT: (INAUDIBLE) he's in the church and he's cheering them on. And he's saying, this is what you do. This is what you do. You have to make people uncomfortable.
HILL: How did cheer them on?
ADAM MOCKLER, COMMENTATOR, MEIDASTOUCH NETWORK: That was his interpretation of what they were doing.
SEAT: He cheered them on. He was pointing out that people were scared and afraid.
(CROSSTALKS)
HILL: That's observing. That's what journalists do. They observe.
SEAT: No, he was cheering it on.
HILL: How was he cheering it on if he's pointing out what's happening right in front of his face?
SEAT: No. He said, these people are scared and afraid. And that's why come to protest.
HILL: Were they not?
(CROSSTALKS)
SEAT: He was cheering it on.
HILL: How is he cheering it on when he's telling you what's happening? That's part of what we do.
PHILLIP: See the parts where he was here.
SEAT: He also told them, I'm happy that you're doing this. I'm glad that you're doing.
PHILLIP: Did you see the parts where he was interviewing the parishioners? Did you see those parts?
SEAT: Yes. And I also saw when the pastor asked him to leave and he refused to leave for seven minutes,
MOCKLER: I didn't see a single moment where Don Lemon conspired with the others to further this crime. He was there reporting the entire time.
SEAT: He knew about it in advance.
MOCKLER: So, how did he further that?
SEAT: He admitted that he knew about it.
(CROSSTALKS)
SEAT: So, if you know someone is going to be shot and killed and you go to cover it, you're not complicit of it.
MOCKLER: He didn't.
PHILLIP: Hold on.
MOCKLER: If you cover it --
PHILLIP: Hold on.
MOCKLER: Yes.
HILL: Murder and protests are not the same thing.
PHILLIP: First of all, I don't even know that that is established by the video. He was -- he said early on in the video that he -- that they were going to do some kind of protest. He was following along with them. Elie, I mean, I'm curious in your professional opinion, just taking in all of this discussion, how do you think that all of this factors into, was he a journalist, was he not? Can you just say that he's not a journalist, because you don't like that he has an opinion? Does it matter if he was following them into something and he wasn't sure exactly what was going to transpire?
HONIG: So, the crucial legal line here is between journalist and participant, right? If you're a journalist, you can't get charged with this. If you cross the line into participant, then, arguably, you can.
Now, I think with Don, there's no -- look, you can say he's a biased journalist, like I will give you that. There's no question. But you can't say he's not a journalist because you think he's over the top, or you disagree with his views any more than you can say. I don't know. Is Tucker Carlson a journalist? I would say he is. He's biased as well. Clearly Don is a journalist.
But there's going to be some interesting cases. We saw some of this with January 6th because some of the people who went into the Capitol tried to defend themselves by saying, well, I was live streaming to my 43 followers. That makes me a journalist.
Now, we don't know exactly where the line is, but by any construction, Don is a journalist and should get the protection.
HILL: And it was just recently that Vice President J.D. Vance was saying that Nick Shirley should win a Pulitzer. Was that journalism to you?
SEAT: I don't think it was.
HILL: Okay.
SEAT: I'm pretty consistent on this. I don't think that he is. I don't think Tucker Carlson is either anymore.
HILL: Again, in this age, for example, we've had many different forms of what journalism looks, like because the model has changed based off how the method is. So, yes, you can say opinion columnist. That would mean every opinion columnist in this nation is not a journalist.
[22:10:00]
I'm an opinion columnist for The Atlantic. Am I not a journalist? I perform journalistic action all the time.
PHILLIP: So, let me play with this exchange, we were just talking about this, between Don and the pastor in the church.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What do you think of this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, this is unacceptable. It's shameful. It's shameful to interrupt a public gathering of Christians in worship and other stuff.
LEMON: Right. But there were folks who --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to take care of my flock.
LEMON: Okay. But, listen, we live in a -- there's a Constitution, the First Amendment to freedom of speech and freedom to assemble and protest, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're here to worship -- we're here to worship Jesus, because that's the hope of these cities. That's the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.
LEMON: I'm very respectful. Please don't push me though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, that was described in the indictment as Lemon and Fort approaching the pastor and largely surrounding him. They stood in close proximity to the pastor in an attempt to oppress and intimidate him and physically obstructed his freedom of movement while Lemon peppered him with questions to promote the operations message.
First of all, the pastor stood there and spoke to him as if he was being interviewed by a journalist. That's the first thing. And then the second thing is, this seems to acknowledge that Don was asking questions. I don't know that standing next to someone in a gaggle, which is what that was, and asking them questions is oppressing and intimidating them.
LYDIA MOYNIHAN, CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK POST: Well, I think we did glaze over the events of what happened and it was a very alarming thing for the First Amendment when it comes to freedom of religion. I mean, there were children who were getting screamed at and being told your parents are Nazis and they're going to burn in hell. So, that event --
PHILLIP: So, I think the question is --
MOYNIHAN: So, that -- right, so I -- and I do want to --
PHILLIP: Sure. But I think the question is --
MOYNIHAN: Right. And I do want to address that. The question is --
PHILLIP: -- did Don and Fort do any of those things?
MOYNIHAN: The question is, is he a protester or a journalist? And the indictment obviously suggested that he posted himself at the main door, he prevented people from exiting. But, ultimately, that case --
PHILLIP: No, it does not say that.
MOYNIHAN: The indictments say that.
PHILLIP: It says that protesters did that. It names the other people. It did not say that Don did that. And, by the way, and, look, if you or they want to make that claim, they would actually have to prove that. How are they going to prove that? That would be pretty evident, right?
MOYNIHAN: Look, the case is in the plan (ph). But I do want to say, I'm glad to hear that everyone is up in arms about journalism and freedom of the press, and I wish that we'd also heard this when James O'Keefe of Project Veritas was being raided by the FBI because he was investigating Ashley Biden. I wish we'd also heard this kind of outrage when he had classified materials, when The Blaze journalist Steve Baker was arrested for filming and reporting on January 6th. He was a legitimate journalist.
So, look, I think freedom of the press is extremely important. And I would like to see that same concern applied equally to both conservative and liberal journalists.
HILL: And I'm with that because I don't think if you're right, left upwards, downwards, sideways, leaning, it doesn't matter to me. Even if this was a journalist I didn't personally know, a journalist who I would disagree with everything they said, I think now is the time for all journalists, regardless of what outlet you work for, regardless if you're a competitor. I love the fact that CNN put out a statement about this. Because I think every major outlet, Fox, NBC, all of them need to put out statements and draw a line.
To me, part of the reason why we're in this moment is because of the capitulation by legacy media to Donald Trump. And it's like we have to be able to draw a line and say, this is not okay, whether it happens to Don Lemon, whether it happens to a conservative journalist, a right wing journalist, this is not okay. Because if we don't draw that line, then we're essentially giving up on democracy. The only way a democracy functions is with a free press. Without a free press, what do we have?
SEAT: But it's okay for him to cheer on --
HILL: I didn't think he was cheering on --
(CROSSTALKS)
MOYNIHAN: The question too is, you know, you're not allowed to go into private property, even if you're a journalist. Was this church private property?
HONIG: Well, that would be -- I mean, if he trespassed, that's a state level trespass. It's not a federal civil rights case.
HILL: Right. And he would be charged with that. But I believe that's not among the charges.
PHILLIP: That's not one of the charges.
Very quickly, and then we got to go.
MOCKLER: One of the judges' main problems was that the DOJ was kind of lumping together the actions of all the conspirators with Don Lemon, the leader. So, what you did was the same thing. You're trying to lump together what Don Lemon did with the person who is leading the charge.
I think this really exposes the priorities of the DOJ when they're more focused on Don Lemon and his producer than the guy who murdered Alex Pretti and Renee Nicole Good, the multiple people who murdered them.
PHILLIP: All right. We're going to hit pause there and pick it up in just a moment.
More to get to, including massive protests and the DOJ launching a civil rights investigation into Alex Pretti's killing after they said that they wouldn't.
Plus, the DOJ insists that there has been no effort to protect President Trump in the latest Epstein files release. Is the public buying that? We'll debate. [22:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: We will jump back into the conversation in a moment, but right now I want to bring in Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass. She was inside the courtroom today when Don Lemon appeared there after being detained. Mayor Bass, thank you for joining us.
Tell us about why you decided to show up today, and what did you see in the courtroom?
MAYOR KAREN BASS (D-LOS ANGELES, CA): Well, absolutely, of course, I wanted to be there. I wanted to see what. What happened because this was such an egregious act that took place last night in the Los Angeles area.
[22:20:00]
And, you know, I saw Don. He looked fine. But I will tell you though that I thought the government's case was an embarrassment. I mean, granted I'm not a lawyer. But to hear them try to nuance why they were actually arresting him and then calling for such incredible terms that he was not to travel anywhere except for between Minnesota and New York, that they didn't want him to travel overseas, that they wanted to have a massive amount of bail. There was just no legitimacy here. And, frankly, it seemed as though the government's lawyers were even struggling to present their case because it seemed like even they didn't take it that seriously.
PHILLIP: So, while you were outside of the courthouse, you were talking to reporters and you suggested that there was a reason that these particular journalists were arrested. Read between the lines for us there. Why do you think the Trump administration moved to charge Georgia Fort and Don Lemon, these specific people?
BASS: Well, I mean, first of all, there are two African American reporters and I don't know, maybe they were the only reporters there. I highly doubt it. But it's interesting, Georgia, because I believe, and please tell me if I'm wrong, that she was one of the only reporters that covered the George Floyd case, or rather covered Derek Chauvin's trial, and we know that the administration is considering pardoning him. And so you arrest the two African American reporters, but I also heard that there were two other African American reporters that were arrested as well. I have not confirmed that.
But I will tell you that I know that journalists are worried. I know that black journalists are worried. I did a call afterwards with a number of our local black press and a number of our elected officials, and they expressed that they were concerned. But I also said at the press conference that, frankly, I think all journalists need to be concerned.
We know that they crack down in ridiculous proportions to peaceful protests. They snatch people off the street, and the majority of them have no criminal background. And so I think that journalists need to be put on notice as to whether or not they're coming after them.
And I'm going to say this repeatedly because this is the year of a 250th anniversary of our democracy. And I wake up every day wondering, are we going to get to July 4th and still have a democracy intact? What is next? Who are they coming after next?
PHILLIP: Do you think Donald Trump is eroding democracy?
BASS: How can I not? I mean, there is nothing that says he isn't. I think about my poor colleagues in Minneapolis. They have a police force of 600, and they've brought in more than a thousand officers that literally overwhelms their police department. I saw the complete misuse of the military here. Remember, the experiment started right here in Los Angeles and I said it was an experiment. It was very clear to me that one of the ultimate goals in all of this is for the American people to accept a militarization of our cities.
I mean, I don't want to see it be a year from now that we've grown accustomed to seeing troops up and down our street. We had 4,000 National Guard people here who basically had nothing to do. They were watching video games.
PHILLIP: Mayor, in the city tonight, there were protests over what's been happening in Minneapolis and around the country, but there have been clashes with police and officers outside of a federal building. What can you tell us tonight about that scene? Is it under control? And is LAPD assisting?
BASS: Well, I can tell you that the situation is under control, but it is ongoing. And there was an interaction that was violent for a minute but it was brought under control. First, you had the federal officers defending the federal building and they acted in the beginning and they dispersed tear gas. Then when it moved into the street, then, of course, the Los Angeles Police Department takes over. There is a show of force there, but so far they have been managing it. I think it's down to about 150 people and they're kind of scattered around one particular intersection. So, I think that it will end okay.
But we are on a tactical alert right now in our city, and all of this is unnecessary. We have to go back to the origin of all of these protests. Nobody would be protesting now in the street if Minneapolis hadn't happened. We wouldn't have had protests in Los Angeles if they hadn't invaded us.
PHILLIP: And have arrests been made tonight?
BASS: I understand two people have been arrested for failure to disperse. But, again, this is ongoing right now.
PHILLIP: All right. Mayor Karen Bass, thank you very much for joining us.
[22:25:00]
We appreciate your time tonight.
BASS: You are welcome.
PHILLIP: And my panel is back with me. She says very clearly, Adam, that she believes that this started in Los Angeles and it's part of an ongoing effort of Donald Trump's to erode democracy.
MOCKLER: I think all of Donald Trump's actions over the past year have been an attempt to erode democracy, and he's becoming increasingly desperate as we head into the midterm. So, the attacks on the press are attacks to make sure there's not transparency. Attacks on college campuses or colleges, it's to make sure that critical thinking students aren't coming out of these colleges to debunk the administration. He attacks law firms. He attacks any single check. And this is a perfect, perfect example of him trying to push a chilling effect with an independent journalism.
So, Don Lemon is an independent journalist. I think independent journalism is incredibly important. And it's the one variable this administration hasn't really gone after super hard. So, now he's targeting not only Don Lemon, but multiple other people in order to create this overall chilling effect, which erodes democracy.
HILL: And can I pick up on something that Mayor Bass said? I live in Los Angeles, and so very -- obviously very aware of the presence of ICE and what it had been there during the time that she was referring.
But I want to talk about what she said in terms of mentioning why we need to remind ourselves of the racial element of this. There is a reason why I think Don -- a reason why Donald Trump not only picked independent journalists, but black journalists in particular. Clearly, we know there's no love lost between Don Lemon and Donald Trump, that he's been very critical of the president. The president had -- they've gone back and forth.
But if we go back and undo all the layers of all of this, it was black journalists that were really at the forefront of calling Donald Trump out from the birtherism movement, throughout a lot of the things that they saw early before the rest of the press really picked up on some of the things that concerned a lot of black journalists, hello me, who also called out Donald Trump in 2017.
And the reason why I think he picked these particular journalists as being independent, you don't have the backing of a CNN, you don't have the backing of a big network. The other part of it too is that if you can make them the face of this issue that is happening in Minneapolis, we know that given some of the racial issues that we have in this country, it is likely to have a lot less sympathy because they're journalist, one, and people hate the press, and, two, because they're black.
And so I do think that that's an important part of this, especially given the president's own language when it comes to anti-DEI and making black people the face of woke. And all that we've heard from this administration, all of this is combined together and meant to drum up a certain sentiment against these journalists so that people are supporting their own rights being eroded because of who they think it's happening to. PHILLIP: Even if you don't agree that there's race as an underlying factor here, it does seem very clear that the Trump administration, Lydia, views this as a slam dunk because Don, in particular, can be polarizing. And I think they feel like it's an easy way for them to chip away at the media. And, look, again, you don't have to like or agree with anything that Don has said or done, but the right of the media, as you pointed out, extends not just to, you know, Don, but also even to conservative media as well. And I just -- that's the part I don't understand. Why is it suddenly okay just because it's Don Lemon, just because it's Georgia Fort, that Trump is trying to criminalize the exercise of the free press, the actual reporting that they were doing on the ground?
MOYNIHAN: Well, also I just want to respond because you accused me of mischaracterizing the indictment. This is actually a quote from the indictment that Lemon post himself at the main door of the church where he confronted some congregants and physically obstructed them as they tried to exit, challenging them with maxed out U.S. immigration policy. So, that is what the indictment says. I'm not stating whether I agree with that, but that's what the indictment says.
So, look, you know --
PHILLIP: They also characterized him as intimidating a pastor who he was calmly interviewing. So, I think we also have to -- the characterization of him conducting journalism is also something to be questioned.
MOYNIHAN: Look, I think there's obviously a lot of journalists in Minneapolis, the notion that they're just randomly targeting somebody because of their politics or their race is a little unfair. They, if you read the indictment, are going after him because they think that he acted more as a protester than a journalist. But, again, I think we need to be really careful when it comes to freedom of the press. I --
PHILLIP: And you brought up the -- you brought up that Capitol January 6th person from The Blaze who was charged. And I looked it up because there are a few other examples that I actually have of some of the things that those other people who claim to be journalists did. But this other person, Steve Baker, said -- well, first of all, he entered the Capitol through a broken window.
[22:30:05]
He antagonized police officers who were trying to keep him out. He said in an affidavit he approved 100 percent of what was happening. He stood in Nancy Pelosi's office and says, "The only thing that I regret is that I didn't steal the computer because God knows what I could have found on their computers if I had done that."
So, pretty egregious conduct, which is why he pled guilty, and then waited for a pardon, which later came from President --
(CROSSTALK)
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, then it's that line between journalist and participant. And one other detail, and it was interesting that the mayor picked up on this, because I picked up on this as well earlier, having done a lot of bail hearings. The prosecution here asked the judge to take Don's passport, to make him post bail, and to restrict his travel to New York and Minnesota, right, for the court.
(CROSSTALK)
HONIG: Okay. The legal reason you ask for those restrictions is because you believe someone is a risk of flight. We're going to have the fugitive Don Lemon? This guy doesn't go below 14th Street here in Manhattan. And he's going to take off to some foreign country? I mean, it's overkill by DOJ. And I think they're tipping their hand by that kind of thing.
PHILLIP: And it's not believable, right? You go before a judge and you say something like that, and the judge is like --
HONIG: Where's he going? How is he going somewhere?
LYDIA MOYNIHAN, "NEW YORK POST" CORRESPONDENT: Can we just talk about Karen Bass for a minute, too? She said she wakes up every day worried about Donald Trump. I mean, 7000 houses burned down and she was in Ghana last year. I think she should wake up every day trying to get those houses rebuilt. There's only been 10 that have been rebuilt.
L.A. is a disaster, I was there last week. R.V.'s lining the street because there's 200,000 people who don't have homes. I'm very tired, especially of Mamdani and Bass opining on all of these national issues when their cities need people who are managing what's going on on the streets.
JEMELE HILL, "SPOLITICS WITH JEMELE HILL" PODCAST HOST: Her city is often under attack by the person that is the President, I think --
(CROSSTALK)
ADAM MOCKLER, MEIDASTOUCH NETWORK COMMENTATOR: -- also houses to be more expensive.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Exactly. Yes, I think she has every right to be concerned.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Right. Coming up next, despite below freezing temperatures, millions of Americans across the country joined anti-ICE protests just as the DOJ decided to open a civil rights investigation into the shooting of Alex Pretti. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:36:55]
PHILLIP: As protests erupt around the country and nearly a week after Alex Pretti was killed by federal agents in Minneapolis, Trump's DOJ is finally opening up a civil rights investigation. The probe will examine whether Border Patrol officers violated the law in shooting Pretti, and it marks an expansion of the federal government's investigation into the matter.
In making his announcement, however, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche stopped short of announcing a similar probe into the killing of Renee Good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: I'm not committing to anything with respect to that investigation. That would be completely unfair to the investigation itself for me to stand here and, you know, commit to something for any reason. It just -- depends. It depends on what happens with the investigation and that's a decision that we've made by the folks that are working the investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: First of all, Elie, can you just tell us quickly why the civil rights investigation matters, and why would they not open one into Renee Good?
HONIG: It's a little confusing because you hear the word civil rights, you're thinking civil case, but no. That would be the criminal law -- federal criminal law applicable to an excessive use of force by a police officer. This was a major move by DOJ and I think a step forward to announce that they are looking at a civil rights. So, that would be a criminal case on the Pretti shooting.
Of course, a few seconds after Blanche said, we are opening a civil rights investigation, he said something along the lines of, well, don't get carried away, everyone. I'm not saying it's a big full-blown --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yes, he's downplaying it for whatever reason.
(CROSSTALK)
HONIG: Yes. So, the current status quo is there is some sort of criminal civil rights investigation into the Pretti death, but not into the Renee Good death. Now, I think both of them are certainly, at a minimum, close enough to the line that we should do, they should do, a full independent investigation.
They've decided they're not going to do that with respect to Renee Good. There's nobody who can force them to do that other than political pressure. And we'll see. We'll see if they do a full and fair investigation of Pretti. But it's a bit of progress.
PHILLIP: But Trump is still going back to the drawing board now, calling Alex Pretti an agitator, perhaps an insurrectionist. He says his stock has gone way down. The President continuing to malign the victim here.
PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I think it's fair to say that Alex Pretti was an agitator. We saw that video of him from 11 days prior to the shooting. But --
MOCKLER: A domestic terrorist?
SEAT: Can you let me finish? But I don't think this is the appropriate time to say it. He has passed away. An investigation is absolutely warranted. And I believe into both instances. I think DOJ, Todd Blanche and the team have seen the same videos that we have been seeing from all these multiple angles of what happened last Saturday.
And it's very difficult to look at those videos and ascertain exactly what took place. I mean, it took us days to find out that two officers fired their weapons. We didn't know that for days. There's other things that we may not know about what happened until the investigation happens.
[22:40:00]
And I think it's the right move. When it comes to Renee Good, I would still investigate, but there have been a lot of use of force experts who have gone on television, including on CNN, and said from what they can see, it was warranted in that situation.
PHILLIP: I also think there's a trust gap here, right? Like, even if he says that, they're going to do an investigation. But given all the other rhetoric around this coming out of both DOJ and DHS, a lot of people are not going to trust the conclusion.
MOCKLER: The same administration that called Renee Good a domestic terrorist hours after her death, the same administration that called Alex Pretti a quote, unquote, "assassin". Like an hour after he was executed on the street, now wants us to trust their investigation on this. Do you agree with Kristi Noem's characterization that she made, like an hour after Alex Pretti was murdered that --
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: Can you just wait until the investigation is done?
MOCKLER: That's -- wait, wait. That is such a good point.
SEAT: Can you say that to Kristi Noem?
MOCKLER: Kristi Noem, can you wait until the investigation is done? I'm going to ask one more time. When Kristi Noem said he was a domestic --
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: I'm not here to be interrogated by you, Adam. I'm saying wait until the investigation is --
MOCKLER: So, you have no answer. So, you have no answer. SEAT: But you prejudge everything that this administration does.
MOCKLER: No, I mean --
SEAT: Have you ever been wrong about the administration?
MOCKLER: I'm sure I have, absolutely. But when Alex -- when the video of Alex Pretti came out and then Kristi Noem an hour later said domestic terrorist and assassin, that was prejudging. That is all I was asking you. Thank you. Thank you.
PHILLIP: All right. So, that is settled.
SEAT: Congrats.
PHILLIP: Next for us, an avalanche of new files from the Jeffrey Epstein investigation were released today. But a key Democrat says statements from hundreds of victims naming abusers is missing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:46:11]
PHILLIP: Tonight, the DOJ has released millions of pages of documents from the Epstein files. Among them, a list of sexual assault allegations against Trump compiled by his own FBI last summer. Now, the reason for that list is still unclear and appear to have come from unverified tips, but it's just one of many times that Trump is mentioned, including an account from a victim who said Ghislaine Maxwell once presented her to Trump and suggested he was, quote, "available," and also, files regarding a 1994 rape allegation from a 13-year-old girl.
Now again, Trump has long denied wrongdoing in connection with Epstein and has specifically denied that rape allegation directly. It's also worth noting that it was Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche and not Pam Bondi who spoke to the press today. Blanche insists that the White House has no oversight of the release of these files. And he denied that the Justice Department is trying to protect the President.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: There's this mantra out there that, oh, you know, the Department of Justice is supposed to protect Donald J. Trump. And that's what we were telling. That's not true. That was never the case. We are always concerned about the victims. I can assure that we complied with the statute. We complied with the act, and there is no -- we did not protect President Trump. We didn't protect or not protect anybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, I think it's important to note that these allegations in these files are not verified. Some of them are just things that people have said. And there are some notes about whether they had been run down or not. But putting that aside for just a moment, if you want to ask the question, why did Trump act so strangely about the Epstein files? Why does he seem so concerned about the people whose reputations might be damaged. I think we now know it's because he's all over these files.
MOYNIHAN: It's interesting, actually. I thought there was a very interesting email between Epstein and Michael Wolff. And Michael Wolff says to Epstein, if you have anything juicy about Trump to change the narrative, this was back, I believe, in the first term, now would be the time to do it because Epstein was coming under fire.
If Epstein had something juicy, he would have loved to change the narrative and reveal it. And I would note that all of the claims that you made in the intro, were, as you mentioned, from unverified sources. They were looked into and those complainants were deemed not credible. And there were multiple incidents with those folks involving police and psychiatric evaluations.
So look, I think if anything, this shows that Epstein didn't have anything that damning where he would have released it. And again, if Biden, who his DOJ did everything they could to put him in jail for four years, if they'd had any inkling or any tidbit that was damning, I think we would know that by now.
PHILLIP: So, then, why -- I mean, why is Trump acting so weird? Like, if that was -- were the case --
MOYNIHAN: I don't know that he's acting weird. He just released three million more. We didn't get any Epstein files during Biden. We just got three million today.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Why is he acting so strange? Why does he seem so spooked by this?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean I think that's what I'm -- what I'm asking is -- what I'm asking is like, the President could have just said, yes, put it all out there. I have nothing to hide. But he didn't really say that. He said he has attacked the release of the Epstein files multiple times, even after he signed the bill, allowing these files to be released.
MOYNIHAN: There you go. He signed the bill. He's clearly on board with IT.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: I felt like he was pressured into this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He absolutely was pressured.
(CROSSTALK) MOYNIHAN: -- would not have campaigned and used that.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: He barely campaigned on it, but then he threw any Republican that was trying to vote for the Epstein files or vote in favor of it. But he threw under the bus so much so that Marjorie Taylor Greene ended up resigning from Congress because she was getting death threats that were pointed at her from Trump supporters. Now, when we look at these files --
(CROSSTALK)
MOYNIHAN: Okay, that's not why she resigned from Congress.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: When we look at these files --
[22:50:00]
SEAT: She resigned because she has no influence or had no influence in the building.
MOCKLER: I mean her -- she cited emails that she got threatening her son's life using the words "Marjorie Taylor Greene" --
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: I love that you now find Marjorie Taylor Greene to be an incredible person.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I would also say, okay, put Marjorie Taylor Greene aside for a second. I mean, Thomas Massie, I mean, Trump was furious with Thomas Massie --
UNKNOWN: Exactly, everybody.
PHILLIP: -- the Epstein files. So, there's that. Look, there's also a huge blast radius of so many people. Bill Clinton, Howard Lutnick. Even the man Trump named as the Fed chair today, Kevin Warsh, is mentioned in these files. And I think what it shows for the people who care actually about the justice piece of this is that there are a lot of people who interacted with Jeffrey Epstein, and a lot of people who might not want the full truth of what Epstein was doing to come out.
SEAT: I think it's fair to say that our long national nightmare is just beginning because the Epstein drip, drip, drip will go on three million pages, 180,000 photographs, 2000 videos. Who knows how long it's going to take for the public, for journalists, real journalists, to go through all this and sift through it.
The one big challenge I have, and you touched on it just now, Abby, which is a lot of people are mentioned, but that doesn't mean they did anything wrong. Being mentioned in the files is not an indictment, and particularly what concerns me, and this is a beef I've always had and please weigh in here, Elie, with the Freedom of Information Act.
And that is -- there are so many conversations that take place in hallways and on phones that we don't know about. You can email someone. I can, you know, email person XYZ and they pick up the phone and call me with the response. But the email may lead you to believe something that didn't happen. And that right now I think is occurring with this.
PHILLIP: Let me just play what Todd Blanche said about whether there were men who were responsible for doing bad things in these files. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLANCHE: I don't know whether there are men out there that abuse these women. If we learn about information and evidence that allows us to prosecute them, you better believe we will. But I don't think that the public or you all are going to uncover men within the Epstein files that abuse women, unfortunately.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Elie, that -- I'm sorry, but that just seems like a very bold claim.
HONIG: There certainly are vivid allegations that men abuse women. But I do think it's important to note, these are not allegations that have been verified. And I do think it's hard to say at this point, looking at what came out today that DOJ is trying to cover for Donald Trump. I mean, those allegations are grotesque and assembled in neat spreadsheet form. Anyone at home can go on the website right now. You do have to actually click, yes I am 18, in order to get in, and then you can word search it and you can write Trump.
There's a lot of very inflammatory stuff said about him that has not been proved, that has not been substantiated. But I think all of this underscores the underlying sin of the Epstein case, which is Jeffrey Epstein himself was given a soft walk by prosecutors back in '07, and that was never made good. And it can't possibly be that Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, the only two people to ever be prosecuted, are the only two actual criminal --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, the victims have said in a letter -- a scathing letter, that the files are being sold as transparency. What it does is actually expose victims. And it also says that they're identifying information about the victims while the men who abused us remain hidden and protected. There are specific documents where people are named, and those documents appear to be missing. And again, I don't have an explanation for it, but that seems problematic.
MOYNIHAN: Yes, and I mean, also there were victims' names who should have been redacted in these files who weren't. So, unfortunately, I mean, I think there is more transparency than there was yesterday. But the idea that we're going to get closure from this, I think, is just sadly unrealistic.
HONIG: Real quick.
PHILLIP: Go ahead.
HONIG: Real quick, just to add to it. Law specifically says you're not -- DOJ, you're not allowed to redact out names because someone might be politically embarrassed or personally embarrassed. Yet they seem to have chosen to do that.
PHILLIP: At least for some people. We do have to leave it there, unfortunately. Back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:01]
PHILLIP: The comedians of "Have I Got News for You," they are back tomorrow. Here's a sneak peek.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY WOOD JR., COMEDIAN: There's plenty of blame to go around. Democrats are blaming Kristi Noem. Kristi Noem is blaming Stephen Miller. And wait, if you find all of that confusing, don't worry. John Berman here at CNN got you covered.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I put together a little flow chart based on your reporting here of who is being blamed and how inside the White House and inside the administration. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem is blaming Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller appears to be blaming Customs and Border Protection. Do I have that correct?
UNKNOWN: I mean, generally.
(LAUGHTER)
WOOD JR.: Who's to blame for all of this? Everything that's happening in Minneapolis right now.
NIMESH PATEL, COMEDIAN AND TELEVISION WRITER: Immigrants -- if immigrants weren't so successful, these white people joining ICE wouldn't be so upset, terrorizing Minneapolis. So immigrants, we got to stop being so good at being American.
[23:00:00]
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
TARA SETMAYER, COMMENTATOR: They're eating the dogs. They're eating the cats. Come on.
PATEL: That's where we get our powers. That's where we get our powers.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You can catch more, Saturday at 9 P.M. on CNN and the next day on the CNN app. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now. Have a great weekend.
