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Trump in Court for Closing Arguments in New York Civil Fraud Trial; Haley and Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-FL) Spar in Last Debate Before Iowa Caucuses. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired January 11, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:04]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Paula Reid was with me watching this in real time. And let's just talk about what those legal inaccuracies were so they can jump into the political discussion after.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Let's start with this idea that he's alleging a conspiracy between the state attorney general and the White House. We know the New York state attorney general, Letitia James, she has attended public events at the White House, and they are trying to misconstrue that as secret meetings to engage in a conspiracy to, quote, get Trump.

Now, he's also talking about not being allowed to participate in closing arguments. And he is sort of characterizing this as a refusal by the judge. But CNN has obtained correspondence between the Trump team and the judge here. The judge was open to allowing him to take this very unusual move of participating in closing arguments, but the judge wanted some guardrails, some restrictions. And, John, there's good reason for that, because what we've seen repeatedly during the course of his proceedings, Trump has attacked the judge, the district attorney, members of the court staff.

So, the judge said, look, I'm willing to let you participate in closing arguments, but we have some restrictions. You have to focus on the material, relevant facts and not attack your accusers. That's pretty reasonable. But his lawyer, Trump's lawyer, Chris Kise, said this was not tenable and the judge closed the door on this possibility. I fully expect that this issue is probably going to be re-litigated at the top of these proceedings.

BERMAN: Yes, minutes from now.

REID: Minutes from now. I think that this is going to come up again and then Trump, again, pointing to the attorney general's campaign promise to prosecute him and trying to suggest that this is all politically motivated, this civil case.

So, this is similar to what we've heard before with some new elements, the biggest being this question of whether he'll participate in closings.

BERMAN: And, again, we're watching for that. In the next few minutes, we will know whether or not his lawyers try to sneak that back in and at least ask for Donald Trump to deliver closing arguments right here behind us.

But, Kate, as you can see, and as I think you just so correctly stated, there were some legal statements made there incorrectly, but it's not about the law, really. It's about the politics. It's about the campaign. And that was very obvious as he was walking into that courtroom.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely.

And, Ana, tell me what you heard in that, same words we have heard from him time and time again. But the courtroom is the campaign at this point.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it's got to be, right? I mean, this is a guy who's got --

BOLDUAN: He doesn't have any other option.

NAVARRO: he's got so many different court cases going on in different venues and 91 charges against him. It's got to be part of the campaign. And it's more of the same from him, where he is portraying himself as the victim, the victim of a witch hunt, the victim of political persecution by Joe Biden, all lies.

It's part of this narrative he builds around himself, where he's like a Christ-like figure, a martyr, taking this for his people, for his followers. But it has worked for him to a certain extent. Look where he is in the polls. You see all of his followers today, his followers in Congress, his supporters in Congress are tweeting attacks on the judge for not having postponed the proceedings so that he could be with his wife, Melania, who just lost her mom, but the same guy who wanted to be with his wife, Melania, was in Iowa yesterday campaigning. And the same guy who wanted to be with his wife, Melania, was hosting a New Year's party while his wife was in the hospital with her dying mother. So, it seems like it's very selective when he actually wants to be with his grieving wife. So, you know, it does have some effect. This is Donald Trump being Trump.

BOLDUAN: And, S.E., you also see Donald Trump in the stage craft, you know, complaining that there were microphones in front of him so he could speak to reporters there, announcing that he's going to have a press conference later. And the broader view of you've got Trump back in a courtroom, also in front of a courtroom making a campaign speech. You have another Republican who has dropped out of the race. And you have the debate that you and I have discussed happening last night. Put it all together. What does today mean for Donald Trump's campaign?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, let's be clear. There is no campaign without the court. He has made this, these legal issues, all the charges, the indictments, the centerpiece of his campaign, because he doesn't want to be talking about policy. He doesn't want to talk about how we would solve problems. He has no interest in that. He didn't solve problems when he was there in the first place. And he doesn't want to have to answer for that. It's why he didn't show up at last night's debate. It's why he doesn't want to be held accountable and go on real news networks. It's why he has Fox News town halls where no one is going to push back on him because he's not running to govern. He's running for revenge.

And so he wants to speak to the judge because his audience, his supporters want to see him go after someone.

[10:05:01]

They want to see the vengeance. They want to see Trump's takedowns. That's the whole campaign. It's really sad and it's pretty gross, but it's worked for him because he has conditioned his very rabid fan base to want that and only that.

BOLDUAN: And, Ana --

NAVARRO: can we mention something that I think we haven't mentioned, is it's important to note that Trump supporters, people following Trump, have waged horrible attacks against the judges' staff. And today, there was a bomb threat at the judge's home in Long Island.

So, that's what Donald Trump's words lead to. And that is why the judge was making the very reasonable request that if he speaks a closing argument, there will be no attacks, because his attacks lead to actual, literal attacks and threats.

BOLDUAN: That's why I was wondering, last night in the town hall that he had on Fox News, he said that he's going to be too busy to have retribution. I'm not going to have time for retribution, though he's the one who kind of laid the groundwork for that being the word of his campaign, when at CPAC in March, he said to the crowd, I am your justice, I am your retribution. I was wondering why he's saying that last night if it's been working for him with a big section of the Republican base.

NAVARRO: Because I think it hasn't worked with one part of the Republican base. I think there's some people that get a little antsy at the idea of having a president who's going to weaponize government. But, listen, Donald Trump, we already know him, we know who he is, he's always going to have time for golf and he's always going to have time for vengeance.

BOLDUAN: S.E., thinking about this and how it's worked for Donald Trump and how -- as you said, he doesn't have a campaign without all of the legal trouble that he's facing, it makes me think of a moment last night in the debate. Given the most direct opportunity to Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis to take on Donald Trump, it was a perfect question asked by Jake Tapper to both of them. Control Room, I hope you can pull it up because I want to play it for you and get your take in how they handled it. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Do you believe Donald Trump has the character to be president again? GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I'm running because I'm the guy that's going to be able to engineer a comeback for this country. I appreciated what President Trump did, but let's just be honest, he said he was going to build a wall and have Mexico pay for it, he did not deliver that. He said he was going to drain the swamp, he did not deliver that. He said he was going to hold Hillary accountable, and he let her off the hook.

TAPPER: Do you believe Donald Trump has the character to be president again?

NIKKI HALEY, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think the next president needs to have moral clarity.

When you look at Donald Trump, I have said, I think he was the right president at the right time. I agree with a lot of his policies, but his way is not my way. I don't have vengeance, I don't have vendettas, I don't take things personally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: S.E., it just seemed like the easiest thing to make a break, and it didn't happen.

CUPP: Yes, I was really tuned into that question as well, and I was glad it was asked so straightforwardly. And it should be a real easy no. Donald Trump is not a character to be president. This is a guy, again, facing 90-plus criminal charges, and we know all of his sorted past histories, both personal and professional, it's a real easy answer. Ron DeSantis answered with process arguments. Nikki Haley kind of deflected and punted because they're trying to do this impossible and I think futile thing, which is --

BOLDUAN: S.E., joining me right now, I want to go back to -- let's talk about this. We're looking right now inside the courtroom. So, in kind of this moment, we've been able to have where the cameras are allowed in to look around and then they're told to leave. Let's just listen to this.

[10:10:00]

BERMAN: We're looking inside the courtroom here at the New York civil fraud trial of Donald Trump, closing arguments about to begin. This is the pool spray that we get really at the beginning of the proceedings each and every time.

There's reason they're not talking, but, Paula Reid, we're getting some color from inside the courtroom as well.

REID: That's right. And this little pool spray that we're seeing right now, this was part of a compromise. Of course, the media, the former president wanted cameras into the courtroom, but we don't get that for the entire proceedings. Instead, they bring cameras in for a couple of minutes. That's why nobody is talking. It's a little awkward. So, we at least have some pictures set the scene. You see the former president, he's sitting between his attorneys, Chris Kaise and Alina Habna, and that's the last we're going to see from inside the courtroom. Now, we're going to be relying on our colleagues who are in there giving us live reports.

And what we expect is going to happen now is the question of whether former President Trump can participate in today's closing arguments. That I expect will come up at the top because there was some discussion yesterday of whether he would participate in closing arguments, highly unusual. That's why you hire a lawyer for, right, to summarize your case at the end.

The judge was open to it, set some pretty reasonable restrictions. He said, look, you can't turn this into a campaign speech. You got to focus on the relevant material facts, and you can't attack people. They did not agree to that. The deadline for negotiations was extended multiple times. Then the judge shut the door on it.

But based on what we heard the former president say as he was heading in, I expect they're going to bring this up again, but it's unlikely that he's going to be able to participate.

BERMAN: And I'll let you read your phone right now, because, literally, the way that we're getting the information now that proceedings have begun, we have someone inside that courtroom writing it down, transcribing in real time. The very first thing we're looking for is if Trump's team tries one last time to allow him to deliver part of those closing arguments. Obviously, they want to make this as much of a show as they possibly can.

Also with us is Kristen Holmes, who covers the Trump campaign. There is really no distinction now between the Trump campaign and what's going on in this courtroom. Donald Trump announced, as he was walking into that courtroom, something which you reported just prior to that, which is in addition to everything you're seeing now, he's doing a news conference later.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And you guys asked, do we think he's going to stop by the cameras before he does a news conference, and he did. Yes, exactly. We outlined exactly how this would play out. What would his messaging be? Same message we've heard before, that this is election interference. And now we are told that he's going to deliver remarks at some kind of press event. We don't know exactly what that's going to look like, but he announced it himself.

Again, as you say, John, there really is no distinction anymore between the legal and the campaign, even if his senior advisers don't want to be in and out of courtrooms because it is a lot to juggle, they have used this as an opportunity.

REID: We have our first update from inside the courtroom. As our colleague, Kara Scannell, reported earlier today, the judge overseeing this case, he had a bomb threat called into his home. Now, the proceedings are underway. He did not address the bomb threat, and he's also not addressing the larger controversy over closing arguments. Instead, the judge laid out the plan. He said the defense, so Trump's team, has until 12:45 to lay out their closing argument. And now Trump's lawyer, Chris Kise is at the podium, and we'll see if he decides to again re-litigate this question of whether his client can participate today.

BERMAN: All right, very interesting to see that. Christopher Kise, the attorney for Donald Trump, now at the podium, beginning to deliver the closing arguments. We will get word shortly whether he tries to make any legal points there or ask the judge for permission to let Donald Trump speak. But also notable, and I think we should remind people what did happen this morning, there was a bomb threat called in to the home of Judge Arthur Engoron. It did delay some of the normal proceedings that we see here in the courtroom. It took a while longer for people to get inside that courtroom, extra security for the judge. Interesting that he didn't say anything at all about it.

REID: Yes, but I think that's probably best, right? You don't want to bring too much attention to it. This is a concern that we have seen across the multiple cases that Trump is facing because he, of course, will attack judges, attack prosecutors, and we've seen there's some really serious consequences. For example, the federal judge overseeing the election subversion case, Judge Tanya Chutkan, her home was swatted a short time ago, several days ago. We've seen other people face threats.

So, when Trump turns his ire, his threats, his bully pulpit on individuals, even when they're judges, when they're public officials, the consequences can be really serious. So, probably best not to bring more attention to that at the top. Now, the question is whether Kise, now that he's at the podium, is going to push the issue of Trump participating.

Now, I'm sure Chris Kise would prefer that Trump not participate in closing arguments, but, look, this is what his client wants to do. And as you've both said so many times, this is as much a campaign event as it is a legal proceeding.

HOLMES: And one thing to note here is that part of the restrictions that the judge was trying to set was, don't talk about me or my courtroom staff because of what we have seen in terms of, like, death threats and obviously this morning, an actual bomb threat called into his house.

[10:15:08]

That is part of the issue here. That is what they were asking them to restrict.

Donald Trump's argument is going to be, in what we saw in the emails, you cannot restrict what I'm going to say in my closing remarks, even if it's about the courtroom staff. So, it seems unlikely to me that even if Kai just gets up there, they're not going to agree to that. Donald Trump is not going to agree to restrictions. He never wants to agree to restrictions. Part of his argument when it comes to the campaign is, yes, this is political, and also they're trying to silence me. They don't want me to talk about how this is political. REID: And at the end of the day, it is the judge's courtroom, right? So, he sets the rules.

All right, we have our first update. So, Chris Kise, Trump's lawyer, jumping in, summarizing his defense argument, which is that no witnesses testified to fraud, to any material misstatements.

So, again, to reset, the former President Trump, his sons, his company, they're being accused of lying about the value of assets to get better terms on loans and for insurance and taxes. But they're going to argue today that, look, the state did not sufficiently connect any valuations to the former president. They have not proven their case here. He's saying, quote, the entire case is manufactured to serve a political agenda. And that's what we just heard Trump say, right? This is all political.

BERMAN: All right. So, the closing argument is on. Christopher Kise, the attorney for Donald Trump, beginning to make his legal case. He's got until 12:45 P.M. to finish. We will monitor it very closely to see which way he takes this discussion, whether or not he tries to have Donald Trump rise up and speak himself. This is all unfolding before our very eyes.

Our live special coverage from outside the courthouse continues right after this.

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[10:20:00]

BOLDUAN: Closing arguments are underway now in the $370 million civil fraud case that could see Donald Trump ultimately barred from doing business in New York. The fate of his business empire, nothing short of that, really is at stake here. The former president as of now will not be speaking during closing arguments.

The judge kind of shut the door on that, saying that he wouldn't agree to the conditions in place. But sources close to the former president are telling CNN he does plan to deliver remarks after today's trial proceedings end. We heard Donald Trump announce something of a press event will be held later today.

Paula Reid is back with us there, standing there with John at the courthouse. Elie Honig, the former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, is here. Caroline Polisi is also joining us, federal and white collar criminal defense attorney.

Elie let's first address the comments Trump made going into court, where he said that he is hoping to offer a summation and that he is being silenced.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Wildly misleading at best. Here's what happened. Donald Trump's team let the court know, the judge know, a few days ago that he wanted to give some portion of his own closing argument, which arguably, under some circumstances you might be able to do. The judge then insisted on what Donald Trump's team is calling conditions but they're really just the rules of court.

BOLDUAN: Not unreasonable?

HONIG: Not at all. This is exactly what restrictions would be on any lawyer, any judge in any scenario, you cannot get up there and give a campaign speech. You can't talk about irrelevant issues. You can't testify during closing argument. You can't attack the motives. These are all things that perhaps are legally permissible outside of those doors. But inside those doors, you have rules of evidence, you have rules of procedure. And so the judge basically said, I'll consider it if you abide by the rules of court. And Trump's team did not agree to that, their own choosing. They could have agreed theoretically. They could have said, sure, he'll abide by that. And then he could have been giving his own statement.

So, the fact that Donald Trump is not up there not testifying, but giving his closing argument, is his own doing.

BOLDUAN: Caroline, big picture, talk to me about -- I mean, we'll say it because it continues to be true and important to point out, the courtroom is the campaign. This is so unusual in so many levels. Big picture, talk to me about the impact of these closing arguments and ultimately what we're going to get from this judge.

CAROLINE POLISI, FEDERAL AND WHITE COLLAR CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I mean, quite honestly, today is not that big of a day, legally speaking in court. We've had weeks and weeks of witnesses, evidence, testimony, things of that nature. I agree with Elie. I think this gambit was -- I think Chris Kise knew in his heart that this was never going to --

BOLDUAN: Like where this was going to head?

POLISI: Yes, exactly. And I think he's using it, to your point, as more fuel on that fire, really saying, look how much I'm being not only prosecuted but persecuted in that I can't even speak in my own defense in a trial of this nature. So, he's sort of using it as a straw man argument. Of course, he could have. It's only his fault that he's not doing it.

But big picture, this is a civil fraud case, right? His liberty is not at stake, unlike some of the other criminal charges against him, but still hugely consequential.

BOLDUAN: One thing that is at stake when it comes to this, though, is his ego. When you talk about what his wealth is and if he's going to be able to continue to do business, that's not a small thing when it comes to Donald Trump. John?

BERMAN: Yes. We just wanted to pick up on what you guys were talking about, the nature of the arguments that Donald Trump. And now his legal team are making. And, Paula, the very first thing out of his attorney, Christopher Kise, mouths in the closing arguments tells the story.

REID: So, I'm reading notes from our colleagues who are in the courtroom reporting this to us live.

[10:25:00]

And the first thing that Trump's lawyer said is, quote, this entire case is a manufactured claim to serve a political agenda. That is the crux of their defense. We heard this multiple times over the course of this trial. We just heard it from former President Trump. Even though he's not formally participating in closing arguments, he gave a statement to reporters, he argues, at least in the court of public opinion as well.

He says, look, Letitia James, she ran on a promise to come after me. They have brought this case to serve a political agenda. He has made a series of claims alleging this is all a political vendetta, completely ignoring the evidence, right, that has been presented in congressional testimony, in this courtroom as well, about allegations of his company not being honest about the value of their assets, to get better tax rates, to get better terms on loans and insurance. But it's clear they're framing their argument today as this case is political.

BERMAN: But they're not doing it for the judge, who is the one, the only one in that courtroom who gets to make the decision now and, in a way, has already made a decision that it's not political. Correct?

REID: So, Chris Kise is speaking to a few people right now. First and foremost, really, is the judge, right? Because while the judge has already found them liable for fraud, he is considering other charges, and there's also this question of penalties. Not only are we talking about the possibility of hundreds of millions of dollars in penalties, also on the line is Trump's ability to do business in the state of New York.

This case is deeply personal. This is not just about money. This is about his identity. This is about his personal brand, which is part of the reason we've seen him show up here so many times. But, yes, the political argument is more for the court of public opinion, because this judge, he knows the facts, he knows the documents, he's heard the witnesses. He's not going to be swayed by that. So, Chris Kise talking to his client, talking to the judge, and, of course, the electorate.

BERMAN: Yes. Kate, so, interesting, the very first thing in the closing argument was to make the claim this is all political.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. I mean, Elie, Caroline, weigh in on this as well. I think I scribbled it down -- I can't read my own writing -- scribbled it down as Paula was reporting it out, this entire case is a manufactured claim to serve a political agenda, first words out of Chris Kise's mouth.

HONIG: Well, two things can be true and are true at once. Yes, Donald Trump inflated the value of his assets by a lot. I think that's been established by this case. There's a separate question whether anyone was actually harmed because the banks made the loans, they knew what they were doing, they got paid back.

But it is a fact that Letitia James, as Paula Reid said, letitia James campaigned for attorney general in 2018 specifically on a promise to vote for me and I'll get Donald Trump. That's not something she said once. She said it dozens of times. She said it in writing. She fundraised off it. And she wasn't even specific. She didn't say, I'll get him for inflating his assets. At one point, she said he could be indicted for money laundering at one point. She said -- the day after she was elected, she said, and I quote, we're definitely going to sue his ass. He'll know my name.

And when you make statements like that, how can you say there's no political angle to this? You can maybe say the facts are there, but it's also political. That's Letitia James' own doing.

BOLDUAN: So, what if two things -- Counselor, if we move forward that these two things are true at the same time, what does it mean to all of this?

POLISI: Right. That's what's so hard about Trump in all of these cases. The question -- as you know, we hear this phrase often repeated, no one is above the law, but the question is, is he being unfairly treated on both sides, right, whether he's being overprosecuted to some extent because of who he is or given unfair treatment and underprosecuted, as it were. And so it makes it very difficult.

I mean, of course, we've got a lot of different prosecutors, I agree, it's not a good look for Tish James to know, speaking on the courtroom steps. It only adds to this argument that Trump is making, that it is political. It tends to look political. But then you have to think about the actual facts of the case. And as Elie said, I mean, square footage doesn't lie, right?

Some of these things are just on paper. It's a paper case to some extent, and the facts don't lie. He inflated and deflated the value of his assets, obviously. But the question is, if it weren't him, would this have been prosecuted? And we may never know that answer.

BOLDUAN: Right. The judge has already found him liable for persistent and repeated fraud. The scope of the damages is part of what is at stake, but also, again, the political reality that this is a campaign event for Donald Trump at the very same time.

Elie, Caroline, thank you. John, we're going to get right back to John and Paula on the courtroom steps. Paula and John, they're getting all of this in real time and the details coming in from these closing arguments. We'll get right back to them.

Also coming up for us, keeping an eye on the other part of the campaign trail, Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis, they are hoping to sway Iowa voters today, and they definitely were trying to last night at CNN's big debate, but their harshest criticism was not, again, was not for the frontrunner, Donald Trump.

[10:30:00]

We'll be back.

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