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2024 U.S. Race; Final Debate Before Iowa Caucuses, Haley and DeSantis Square Off; Interview with The Daily Beast Senior Columnist Matt Lewis; New Hampshire Primary "A Little Bit False", According to Trump; Trump in Court for Closing Arguments in New York Civil Fraud Trial; Jill Biden Criticizes House GOP for Conducting Investigation Against Hunter Biden. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired January 11, 2024 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: Name calling, finger pointing with some policy thrown into the mix. That was last night on the Republican debate stage. Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis, going after each other as they stood shoulder to shoulder, side by side. Donald Trump, not among their targets. So, with just four days until the Iowa caucuses, Trump's chief rivals seem to stick with one pretty consistent theme.

[10:35:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've said it again, Ron, so stop lying.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And then she said she never said it, of course, you're lying.

HALEY: It doesn't change the fact that Ron's lying because Ron's losing.

DESANTIS: I thought he lied a lot. Man, Nikki Haley may give him a run for his money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And with that behind them, Haley, DeSantis, they're headed back out on the stump on the campaign trail in Iowa. Well, as we've been talking about, Donald Trump, the front runner, is back in a courtroom.

Joining us right now for more on this, CNN Political Commentator, Former Republican Lieutenant Governor of Georgia Jeff Duncan, and senior columnist for "The Daily Beast", Matt Lewis. First, I just want to get both of your reactions to what you saw last night.

You woke up today thinking, what about last night, Matt? MATT LEWIS, SENIOR COLUMNIST, THE DAILY BEAST: I'm thinking, man, I can't believe it, but I missed Vivek Ramaswamy.

BOLDUAN: Stop.

LEWIS: I never thought I would say that but --

BOLDUAN: What are you -- you wrote about this today. Why?

LEWIS: Well -- look, I was hoping that if we winnowed down the field, right? We got rid of these gadflies. We got rid of these hangers on, that we could have a really serious, substantive debate between what -- you know, we could consider to be Trump's two main rivals. I mean, they're not really that competitive with Trump yet. But I think everyone, sort of, thought fewer candidates would give us a better debate. And to be honest with you, I actually think it was a worse debate.

And look, I think the big missed opportunity, because I was rooting for Nikki Haley, you know, cards on the table. but I think that she is somebody who has the potential to come across as likable and charismatic. And yes, she has to fight. She has to throw elbows, but she has the potential to also be Reagan-esque or whatever. And she did not do that. This was a childish, petty back and forth.

BOLDUAN: You have to go after each other. You have -- you do need to take out the rival while you're also going after the front-runner. Jeff, why can't they do these two things at the same time?

JEFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER GEORGIA LT. GOVERNOR: Yes, on the surface, last night's debate seemed a little bit different, right? There were only two candidates there, and it seemed a little more focused, but at the end of the day, this was just a game of small ball. Most of the time it felt like a high school debate going on. And I think they continue to both be Pennywise and pound foolish.

Just because Donald Trump doesn't show up to the debate doesn't mean you don't talk about him. At the end of the day, he's the weakest Republican in this race. He's the one who's raised the national debt $8 trillion. He's the one who mismanaged COVID. He's the one who lied about the 2020 election. He still supports the narrative around January 6th. And the list goes on and on and on.

These are governors of two very conservative, very successful states that have a great track record and at the end of the day they were just splitting hairs. And there's no way to the White House unless you go right through Donald Trump. And I continue to encourage as many folks around these campaigns as possible to don't be afraid of Donald Trump, take him on. It is worth it. He is a train wreck for the Republican Party.

And by the way, this should be a layup for Republicans, right? I mean, we -- it took 44 minutes to mention Joe Biden's name in the debate. according to my clock last night. BOLDUAN: I want to play something for you both that John Berman -- John Berman flagged this for me, and it's about what Donald Trump did during his counter programming town hall last night. It's a moment where Trump is talking about New Hampshire, and it's how he is talking about New Hampshire that you will want to listen to. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But New Hampshire is interesting. It's a great place, a great state, unbelievable people, but they allow independents and Democrats to vote in the Republican primary. You say, what's that all about? So, it's a little bit false in that regard, but even with that, I think we'll win substantially.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Lieutenant Governor, do you hear Donald Trump managing expect -- trying to manage expectations now in New Hampshire?

DUNCAN: Yes, he's a master showman. I mean -- and we as Republicans have let him get away with it. I mean, at the end of the day, he's worried about this process, too. I mean, just a couple of ticks in these polls, if Nikki Haley overperforms in Iowa and then overperforms slightly in New Hampshire, we have a whole new game. But we've got to find ourselves in a different position than just infighting amongst each other.

And, you know, yesterday was a tough day for Chris Christie. I certainly was a fan of his approach and his honesty through the process. He got out because he was at for the good of the Republican party. But we've got to get behind a candidate here. We might have a slight chance to win, but it's worth trying.

BOLDUAN: Matt, what do you think of that, what I just played, of Donald Trump talking about New Hampshire now? That seems to be a shift for him rather than saying, obviously we're going to win. We're going to win big league. It seems like he might be -- I mean, do you hear him being -- I don't know, trying to manage expectations? Maybe he's a little nervous, what the polls are showing him?

LEWIS: Yes, look, I think he's -- I think he's laying the predicate to essentially delegitimize New Hampshire.

[10:40:00]

If he loses, and let's be honest, I think if there's a chance that Trump will lose a state that could change the trajectory of this primary, it would be New Hampshire. It would be Nikki Haley winning New Hampshire.

And so, I think he's laying the predicate to basically say New Hampshire doesn't count. That's not a real Republican primary. I didn't really lose because it wasn't a real Republican primary. It doesn't count. I think that's exactly what he's doing. It's in the same league as saying the election was stolen. that Ted Cruz stole the elect -- the Iowa caucuses last time. This is just a different version of that same play.

BOLDUAN: And, Jeff, as someone who lived through those same words being said over and over again about the 2020 election in your state, what is that going to mean for this primary if that's allowed to occur and that -- and people believe him when he says that, if he says that?

DUNCAN: One thing I learned about the 2020 post-election time period, if we want to call it that, is that Donald Trump's main game is sowing seeds of doubt and sowing seeds of chaos. And he just seems to just throw it out there in the field. And we've seen these pieces all along. These daily press conferences just continue to sow seeds of doubt. And that was maybe the most polite way for him to start sowing seeds of doubt. If he loses New Hampshire or gets, you know, one point ahead of Nikki Haley.

But then it's going to be -- you know, if that doesn't work, then it's going to be that it was rigged. And it just continues and continues and continues. And look, the Republican Party is so starved for a genuine leader right now. It is so ripe for somebody to stand up and say, you know what, Donald Trump's wrong. He's a liar. He has misguided us for far too long. And now we're going to move forward and we're going to beat Joe Biden and we're going to take the White House.

BOLDUAN: And that's why that question last night to Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley, very direct, does Donald Trump have the character to be president? Why? It should have been so easy to answer, and it was not.

DUNCAN: The answer is no.

BOLDUAN: Jeff Duncan, Matt Lewis, thanks guys.

Coming up for us, the fate of Donald Trump's business empire is on the line today as closing mark -- arguments are underway in his civil fraud trial. A trial that has been going on, I think it's been 11 weeks they have been in there. Our coverage continues in a moment.

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[10:45:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: All right. John Berman along with CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid. We are outside the courthouse in Lower Manhattan where closing arguments are underway in the civil fraud trial against Donald Trump where he has already been found liable for defrauding the government of millions of dollars. This trial is now about some additional counts as well as damages, potentially $370 million in damages.

As we said, closing arguments underway behind us. And for the first time, the judge, Arthur Engoron, has stepped in as Donald Trump's team is presenting.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Chris Kise, Trump's lawyer, is presenting his closing argument. It's his theory of the case. And for the first time, we heard the judge stop him and correct him. And it was over whether Former President Trump is truly an industry expert. Because Kise reminded the court, as part of his closing argument -- and I'm reading notes from our colleagues who are inside that Trump is a, "Industry expert."

He said, Trump has been part of the fabric of commercial real estate in this community, in this state, and frankly, all over the world for nearly 50 years. And there, the judge stopped him and said, Trump has not been qualified as an expert in this trial.

Now, this is a bit of a technicality. When you bring in an expert in a trial, they do need to be qualified. It's a process that you go through, but the judge, again, he was upset by this, so he stopped him. He corrected him. But things like this, John, get under Trump's skin and Trump is sitting in there because this case is so personal. This is not just about his expertise in his career, this is about everything he has sold himself to be, right? A titan of industry, of commercial real estate. So, it's likely that this exchange did not please Kise's client.

BERMAN: Well, that's really interesting. It's a technical term.

REID: It's very technical, yes.

BERMAN: Industry expert is a legal technical term, but for Donald Trump it's probably a term revert (ph), right?

REID: Absolutely, and I'm sure that Donald Trump takes issue with anyone suggesting that he's not an expert. But what the judge is saying is, no, no, no. You can't refer to him as an expert because he has not been qualified as an expert witness. It's a technicality, but it is a technicality about something that is so deeply personal to Trump.

BERMAN: All right. Donald Trump's team has until 12:45 to finish making its closing arguments. One thing we're waiting to see is if they try to get Donald Trump in there to speak himself. The judge has said that is not allowable under the current agreement. Will Trump's team try to sneak it in? A lot more going on. This is CNN special live coverage. More right after this.

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[10:50:00]

BOLDUAN: First Lady Jill Biden is speaking out against Donald Trump and defending her son, Hunter. This is coming in a new interview out today. She also is not holding back when it comes to House Republican efforts to hold Hunter Biden in contempt of Congress.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is at the White House. She's got much more on what we're now hearing from the First Lady. And Arlette, the First Lady rarely talks about everything that Hunter Biden is going to -- is going -- has gone through, including his legal troubles. Tell us more of what she's saying now.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate, it is quite notable that First Lady Jill Biden is deciding to take on House Republicans investigating her son Hunter Biden, very directly saying that the tactics that Republicans are using against Hunter are cruel.

Now, this comes after two House Committees voted to hold Hunter Biden in contempt of Congress for not sitting down for a closed-door deposition. That is something that will eventually go to the House floor for a vote, and if it passes the House, that would be a decision for the Justice Department to decide whether they will pursue those charges.

But First Lady Jill Biden really spoke in very blunt terms about the way that Republicans are handling this, and also the impact it's had on her family.

[10:55:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JILL BIDEN, U.S FIRST LADY: I think what they are doing to Hunter is cruel. And I'm really proud of how Hunter has rebuilt his life after addiction. You know, I'm -- I love my son, and it's had -- it's hurt my grandchildren. And that's what I'm so concerned about, that it's affecting their lives as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: And it's really not all that often that the first lady is weighing in on Hunter Biden's legal issues. The Biden family and the White House often try to paint this as a personal issue, also saying that the Bidens consistently stand by their son, Hunter, especially as he has overcome his addictions. But it does come as Republicans have tried to keep this issue, investigations into both Hunter Biden and President Joe Biden front and center in the campaign. The first lady is showing that she's willing to push back.

BOLDUAN: Arlette, thank you so much for that.

Also, right now, closing arguments are underway. Continue in Donald Trump's New York civil fraud trial. We have live updates coming in on what's happening inside the courtroom. We'll get back to it next.

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