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Now: Jury Deliberating In Trump Defamation Trial; Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV) Weighs In On Presidential Race, Potential 3rd Party Run; Fulton County DA's Office Will Not Give House GOP Documents In Trump's Election Interference Case; RNC Drops Proposal To Declare Trump Presumptive Nominee. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 26, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:30]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: All right, we are on verdict watch because right now the jury is deliberating in this civil defamation trial against former president, Trump. Jurors will determine whether Trump has to pay damages and how much for defaming E. Jean Carroll while he was president. Carroll's attorneys arguing an unusually high sum is the only way to deter Trump from continuing to disparage her.

Now, we could be getting a decision any minute, as I mentioned, and we have CNN's Kara Scannell who is standing by at the courthouse as she has been throughout this whole process.

Kara, get us up to speed here.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So the jury's been deliberating for about an hour and 20 minutes at this point after hearing closing arguments earlier today and it was E. Jean Carroll's team that went first. They told the jury that the only way to stop Donald Trump from defaming E. Jean Carroll was to make him pay a significant amount of money. They said they are looking for at least $24 million for emotional harm and the money it would cost to repair her reputation and a very large amount of money in punitive damages to punish Trump from making these statements again and again.

And it was during the closing arguments when E. Jean Carroll's attorney said that Trump, even last year, after the jury found him liable for defamation, 24 hours later, he was on CNN in a town hall repeating the defamatory statements. They said nothing will stop him from disregarding the jury's verdict. It was at that moment that Trump stood up, walked out of the courtroom with the Secret Service trailing him, and he didn't return until his lawyers were on the - were giving their closing arguments.

It was during that closing argument that his lawyers said that he couldn't be held responsible for mean tweets that E. Jean Carroll received or even the death threats that she said she'd received because he was not responsible for the people who sent them. They also suggested that E. Jean Carroll had brought this upon herself, saying that she was a public person by going public with accusations against the president at the time that she was going to invite some scrutiny.

Of course, Carroll's lawyers say that the reason why E. Jean Carroll sued Donald Trump is that so many of the messages that they got were parroting Trump's own words. And they said that E. Jean Carroll is the victim in this case. It's not Donald Trump.

So the jury is deliberating. I'm just checking to see if we have any update from the courtroom, nothing yet. So it's been about an hour and 20 minutes.

The judge telling them that they will go to 4:30 today if there's no verdict, then they'll return on Monday. Brianna?

KEILAR: All right. Yes, things can move pretty fast as we learned here.

Kara Scannell, thank you so much for the latest there.

Let's discuss further now with CNN Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson. Joey, we heard Kara there talking about as we're awaiting this verdict, how Trump had walked out abruptly during E. Jean Carroll's lawyer giving the closing argument, which interrupted the whole process here. Is that something the jury could hold against Trump? How does this work?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So, Brianna, the real issue in any courtroom is you instruct your clients at all times right to compose themselves and know and understand that everything and anything you do is being evaluated closely. And the problem that he is going to have, that is Mr. Trump, in terms of walking out is it goes to the narrative, right, of the team for E. Jean Carroll, which is he plays by his own set of rules, the regular rules of decorum, comportment, forget about the law just don't apply to him.

Why is that relevant, Brianna?

Because it goes to the issue of punitive damages, of malice, of why the jury should take into account that he just doesn't care.

[15:05:08]

And so if the jury were to conclude that he just doesn't care which is their narrative all along and that he'll just repeat things that the jury has found him responsible for, witch hunt, et cetera, then guess what, you see a large award as it relates to punitive damages and that's why storming out is just not something you want to do.

KEILAR: The fact that that Trump defamed her, continued to say things about her after the last trial, is that going to weigh with the jury as E. Jean Carroll's lawyer makes the point that there has to be a big monetary award here to deter him?

JACKSON: So I really do think so, right? Because when you look and evaluate exactly what they're saying, they're talking about the issues of accountability. They're talking about him not being accountable. And they're talking about this jury holding him accountable, a person who just doesn't care, a person who will just continue to say things and do things that a jury already has found you being responsible.

Remember also, Brianna, that his attorney was admonished, that as judge was like, no, we're not doing that, playing a clip of Mr. Trump talking about a witch hunt, et cetera, trying to propagate the narrative in closing that this just didn't happen. That has been determined. It's been decided.

It was decided by a former jury last year that there was defamation involved in what Mr. Trump said. It was determined that sexual assault happened. So you're not going to and cannot deny that and so that's out of bounds. And so to repeat something again and again and again is troubling without question and it could certainly be used by that jury to award something large in the way of punitive and economic damage.

KEILAR: Yes, we'll be waiting to see what this jury says and if they say anything today.

Joey Jackson, great to have you. Thank you so much.

JACKSON: Thank you.

KEILAR: Boris?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Now that Iowa and New Hampshire voters have weighed in on the 2024 presidential race, the country appears to be headed for a rematch of 2020. Donald Trump has swept both states and President Joe Biden won New Hampshire as a write-in candidate despite not even being on the state's ballot. But polls also show that voters are not overly fond of the leading two candidates squaring off again, raising questions about whether a third-party candidate has a potential path toward the White House.

One name being thrown around in speculation for a third-party run is West Virginia senator, Joe Manchin, who joins now. We should note, he is a Democrat.

Senator, thank you so much for being with us. You decided against running for reelection this year. I'm wondering that ultimate question of whether you want to run for the White House, do you want to announce a run right here on CNN?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): Well, Boris, first of all, thanks for having me on such a short notice and I appreciate it. And we're going around the country listening and talking to people. We were in South Carolina last night. We're in Georgia today. I'll be at Georgia State here in a few minutes. But it's interesting to find out what we're hearing on the road and it truly is as people aren't as divided as Congress and Washington wants us to believe we are. And the politics is basically being weaponized and we see what's going on.

So people are looking for, is there going to be a challenge? Is there going to be any other options? We're just trying to tell people there's options out there, especially how you're able to get more people involved. So we put together what we call Americans Together, which is a movement that's showing people how they can change from what you see today in the discourse we have in Washington. It won't be changed in Washington. It'll be changed in South Carolina or Georgia or West Virginia.

People have to get involved and demand better representation and they don't like what they're seeing now, and everything's politicized.

SANCHEZ: Sure.

MANCHIN: It's just a shame. It really is.

SANCHEZ: So given that you're hearing this from voters out there that, that there's much more overlap in what they would like to see done in the nation's capital, how does that factor into your consideration or someone in your position who might be weighing a run as a third party candidate.

MANCHIN: Well, Boris, I've never been more concerned about my country than I am today and I see what's going on, which way we're going and heading and it gets more toxic every day. Just look at what's happening now with this border decision. The Democrats and Republicans in the Senate have worked very diligently and very hard in having an agreement, I think, very close to being finished. And now, all of a sudden, people are throwing cold water on it because of politics.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

MANCHIN: This is what's sickening. It's the most dangerous thing we have, is the border security right now, and a lapse of border security. So we can fix that.

[15:10:00]

But when you have former President Trump saying, oh, no, we can't do that, because it - let's just go ahead and blame the Democrats. Well, the Democrats let this happen, but it's time to fix it. So we can fix this working together. But not to fix it because of politics. It's not who we are as a country. It's not what we're purpose in Washington's all about.

So people are sick of that. So I said, if we can give them options, there's a lot of good people out there that can come forward. There's a lot of people that could do this. But on the other hand, can we move President Biden back to the center a little bit more because I think people really thought that he was a moderate, centrist and that's what I've always known him to be. And if that can happen, pushing back towards the center some more, would that be more attractive? And Donald Trump is Donald Trump, I don't know what to say. There's not a whole lot to say on that one.

SANCHEZ: It doesn't sound like you are necessarily opting completely out of a potential run for the White House, so I'm wondering if it is something that's on your mind and you look at the calendar, is it Super Tuesday, is there a specific date where you're going to say, I need to do this now or I'm actually going to step back? MANCHIN: Yes. I think, Boris, what, you have Super Tuesday coming up and right now, people are trying to call it - handicap it, if you will, or call it already. I think Nikki Haley is out there fighting. God bless her. She's going at it and I think it's good. It's challenging. It's competitive and let's see what plays out.

And by Super Tuesday, I think you're going to have a very clear picture of what November would look like as it unfolds. Is it going to be any different? Do people want different than that? Right now, all polls are indicating that they do. Is there a possibility that something can happen, that that could change and is there an opportunity for a third party up the middle?

Well, I can tell you, 45- to 55 percent of Americans consider being center left and center right, not being extreme left or extreme right. They want common sense. They operate their lives that way. They make decisions for their family and their businesses every day in that boundary. And now, all of a sudden, can't we run our politics? Why did it get so toxic? Why did they weaponize it? Why do you have to say, you're a Democrat or you're a Republican, you might be the other side, and I'm supposed to hate you?

I don't hate any of my colleagues. These are my friends. And I'm going to work with them and I always have tried to do it.

SANCHEZ: It sounds like you're sort of positioning yourself for a potential run for the White House, given the way that you describe yourself as bipartisan. And to be fair, you have drawn a lot of anger from members of your party for some of your more conservative positions. I am curious, though, if you do wind up running and you attract more moderate voters, more left-leaning ...

MANCHIN: I'm not real popular, Boris ...

SANCHEZ: If you ...

MANCHIN: ... with the extreme left or the extreme right and that's okay.

SANCHEZ: It's true. It's true.

MANCHIN: I understand.

SANCHEZ: If you do wind up running and you attract more moderate, more left-leaning independents, wouldn't a third-party candidate like yourself ultimately deliver the White House to Donald Trump? Do you not see a potential for you to play spoiler?

MANCHIN: Well, I hear - Boris, I hear that and I have heard that many, many times. I haven't seen that play out in fruition. But I've heard that, that concerned people have. I can only tell you I will never be a spoiler. I will never try to, one side or the other to be a spoiler. I will never do that and I will watch that very carefully if that's what it comes down to.

Right now, the movement of Americans Together let you know there's things you can change. You can change the primary processes. We can work better on gerrymandering to stop all these crazy districts. We have 380 out of 435, that districts are already cooked. It's going to be either Democrat or Republican because they're cooked on the ideology of how their lines were drawn.

Those things can be changed and that's what we've been trying to talk about and show people how they can get involved and majority voting. My dear friend, Lisa Murkowski would have never probably gotten elected in Alaska without it. And God bless her, she's one of the better senators that we've ever had in the Senate and I enjoy working with her so much, when you start losing that moderate centrist middle.

And people are retiring. My friend, Mitt Romney's retiring and I'm retiring, and things - people that we've always counted on. So all the things that we've been able to do in a bipartisan way, these are the people that have always been at the table. They're the ones that made the 117th Congress the most productive probably in recent history. Bipartisan infrastructure bill, CHIPS Act and even the IRA was done - I worked for five years putting it together with different friends on the Republican and Democrats together.

So there's a lot of progress that was made because of the middle, not the extremes. And now you see the extremes trying to play politics with the most dangerous thing that we're dealing with today, which is the border. The crisis at the border is an absolute, total crisis and it's dangerous, and we can fix it.

And if not, I would ask the President, please, Mr. President, declare a national emergency.

[15:15:01]

Don't let the politics destroy basically the border situation and security that we need at that border and I would hope he would do that.

SANCHEZ: Sen. Joe Manchin, we have to leave the conversation there. When you do make a decision, you should come back and do it here on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

MANCHIN: I'll - Boris, I'll come and talk to you, I sure will. And thank you so much for having me.

SANCHEZ: Much appreciated, Senator. Thank you so much.

MANCHIN: Uh-huh, bye-bye.

SANCHEZ: Still to come, the Georgia State Senate will look into claims of an improper affair between Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis and her lead prosecutor in the election subversion case against Donald Trump.

Plus, Trump decides he'd rather win the Republican nomination the old- fashioned way than have the RNC just hand it to him. We're going to look at why he potentially changed his mind. And later, testimony resuming in the trial of the Michigan school shooter's mother, why attorneys were clashing over evidence. Those stories and much more coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[15:20:26]

SANCHEZ: Some news just in to CNN. We're now learning that Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis is telling congressional Republicans that her office will not hand over documents related to Donald Trump's election interference case in Fulton County, Georgia. This comes after allegations surfaced what Willis and her lead prosecutor - that Willis and her lead prosecutor, Nathan Wade, engaged in an improper relationship. Republican Congressman Jim Jordan sent a letter to Wade earlier their month, requesting these records.

Let's go live now to CNN's Nick Valencia who's in Atlanta for us.

Nick, what are you learning about Fani Willis' response?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Hey there, Boris.

This is the latest in a long-standing back and forth between District Attorney Willis and Republican Jim Jordan, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. Jordan has been trying to undermine the credibility of this investigation and this case, parroting things from the former president, calling this a political persecution, not a prosecution and he's demanded documents in the past before.

Again, he's demanding them now that news of this alleged improper relationship surfaced, but again, he's being met with resistance from District Attorney Willis, who has rebuffed his demands, and this is what she's saying in part of her response: "Your request implicates significant, well-recognized confidentiality interests related to an ongoing criminal matter. Your request violate principles of separation of powers and federalism, as well as respect for the legal protections provided to an attorney work product in ongoing litigation."

Ever since these alleged romance rumors really surfaced, Willis has been facing criticism from her critics, her foes. Now allies are asking her to step down. She's yet to directly respond to these allegations, but she has defended her selection of Nathan Wade, saying he's qualified, uniquely qualified to do this.

Meanwhile, she is facing a deadline to respond in writing to these claims by next Friday, and of course, we've been reporting on these subpoenas of people who potentially have firsthand knowledge of this alleged romance. That sets the stage for a very dramatic February 15th evidentiary hearing where these individuals potentially would have to testify on live television. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Nick Valencia, live from Atlanta. Thank you so much, Nick. Brianna?

KEILAR: Well, the Republican National Committee has dropped a proposal that would have formally declared former President Trump the party's presumptive nominee. Had the resolution been adopted, Trump would have gained access to fundraising, data, and ground operations, and the committee would effectively be opposing Nikki Haley before the vast majority of the nation's primaries and unprecedented approach to the nominating process.

Trump initially supported the measure, but reversed course amid heavy backlash. Now, the former president is advocating for party unity, saying that he wants to "do it the 'Old Fashioned' way" by finishing the process at the ballot box.

Joining me now is Matt Gorman. He's a former senior advisor to Sen. Tim Scott's presidential campaign.

Matt, thank you so much for being with us.

MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Of course.

KEILAR: What happened here?

GORMAN: I think somebody got a little out over their skis a little bit. Look, if you're Trump, here's the campaign, you're winning, just keep winning. You don't need to jump the gun here. And there are historically funds, if they wanted to raise money, so that when Trump is actually the nominee, they have it ready to go.

People have been doing this for decades. There's funds you can do that that don't call you the presumptive nominee when you're not yet.

KEILAR: He's already taking criticism because of what he's signaling to do in another term that he is going to be undemocratic and this was a move to take some of the democracy out of the nominating process. It's sort of interesting that that didn't occur to him or maybe that's something that he didn't worry about.

GORMAN: I think he thought - I can't speak for - he probably heard the idea, it sounded good. But then when he saw it in practice, again, you're up by 20, 30 points in South Carolina. You're on track to win this. There's no, at least right now, I can't pick a state that Nikki Haley's poised to win. Just keep, let it keep going. You'll win it.

KEILAR: It is hard to see how Nikki Haley ...

GORMAN: Yes.

KEILAR: ... turns this around, considering the electorate in New Hampshire and the primary was the most friendly that it's going to be to her. How is she thinking about the - how would a candidate be thinking about this moment as we do have weeks before the South Carolina primary?

GORMAN: The four weeks between New Hampshire and South Carolina are important, right? If it was a week, you're kind of swept up in the momentum. You just keep going. Four weeks allows you to, A, replenish your coffers, but also see what the polls look like. I don't think anyone realistically expected her in any way to drop out that night. That was not realistic.

But what it allows her to do is take a week, take a week and a half, maybe even two, see where the polls are.

[15:25:01]

If she really has a realistic chance of winning, it's close, she can win, that's one thing. If she's getting blown out by 25, 30 points in her home state, that's a very different measure. So she has the time to think about it.

And look, there's a human element to this. I think we all kind of sometimes fail to remember that these people are human. They've taken well over a year of their life of this. It's consumed their life. And I mean that in a good way. So it's hard to all of a sudden hit the brake real quick. You need time to think about this.

KEILAR: If she wants to play a role, potentially, in a Trump term, another Trump term or she considers that to be a possibility, what do you think that would change about her calculus?

GORMAN: I think more so than anything else, if there's one thing Trump loves, it's converts. He loves bringing people back into the fold. We see this all the time. Nikki Haley was one of them back in 2016. So I don't think it would be too much. I know people, they use, oh, you're barred, you're this, you're that. He loves people come back in the fold. I think his campaign, if this were to happen, would welcome it.

KEILAR: Loves the converts, loves the endorsements and Tim Scott, your former guy, he endorsed Donald Trump. Donald Trump didn't repay him with like a lovely moment on stage. He sort of ribbed him a little bit, maybe embarrassed him a little bit. What did you think about this moment?

GORMAN: Look, I have no inside info on the endorsement, but look, I think it was one of those things where Trump courted the endorsement. According to all reports that I've seen, he wanted the endorsement and he knew that it would be a powerful force. He's very popular in the state of South Carolina. So you can have it both in New Hampshire and South Carolina. I didn't think that too much of it.

Look, he's friends with Nikki Haley. She - I know she appointed him, but they were - Trump and her - him worked together pretty closely when he was president signed into some of his laws, so that's what I attribute it to.

KEILAR: All right. Matt, it's great to have you.

GORMAN: Good to see you.

KEILAR: What a strange, strange point we are at in a strange election season.

GORMAN: January, we got a long way to go.

KEILAR: Right? Maybe not. We'll see, Matt. Great to have you on. GORMAN: Thank you.

KEILAR: The mother of the Oxford school shooter allegedly laughed when her troubled son reached out for help. That is just one of the prosecution's claims in Jennifer Crumbley's manslaughter trial. Stay with us.

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