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Senators Being Sworn In As Jurors In Mayorkas Impeachment Trial; Speaker Johnson To Proceed With Foreign Aid Bills Despite Threats Of Removal. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired April 17, 2024 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R-IA): Do you solemnly swear and in all things appertaining to the trial or impeachment of Alejandro N. Mayorkas, secretary of Homeland Security now pending, you will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws. So help you, God.

SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D-WA) I do.

Yes. At this time, I will administer the oath to all Senators in the chamber in conformance with the Article I, Section 3, Clause 6 of the Constitution, and the Senate impeachment rules.

Will all Senators now stand and raise their right hands?

Do you solemnly swear that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of Alejandro Mayorkas, secretary of Homeland Security, now, pending, you will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws, so help you, God.

SENATORS: I do.

MURRAY: The clerk will now call the names in groups of four. Senators will present themselves at the desk to sign the oath book.

UNIDENTIFIED SENATE CLERK: Ms. Baldwin, Mr. Barrasso, Mr. Bennett, Mrs. Blackburn.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: OK. You are listening to the Senators being sworn in as jurors in the impeachment trial of the Homeland Security secretary, Alejandro Mayorkas.

Let's bring back in Gloria Borger and Ron Brownstein and Michael Gerhardt.

Michael, I want to go out to you because what is interesting in a bit striking is, during Trump's first House impeachment, many Republicans definitive -- their defensive of him was essentially, he didn't commit a crime. He can't be impeached.

And this time, the Republican impeachment managers are arguing the opposite, that impeachment, quote -- this is their quote, "impeachment does not require the commission of indictable crimes."

So which one is it?

MICHAEL GERHARDT, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR, UNC-CHAPEL HILL: Well, it is, in fact, true that officials such as the president or secretary of Homeland Security may be impeached for non-criminal offenses.

It's also true that maybe felonies that are so serious that they could serve as a basis for impeaching.

So there are grounds that can be found either in terms of felony or in terms of something really bad and an abuse of power that the person who's being impeached has done.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: I do want to point out for our viewers, just for the sake of clarity, what's happening now is that, alphabetically, members of the Senate are being called in groups of four to sign the oath book essentially certifying them, swearing them in as jurors in this impeachment trial.

Gloria, Mayorkas was the first cabinet secretary impeached.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

SANCHEZ: in 150 years, dating back to the Civil War. What does that tell you about? The state of U.S. politics?

BORGER: Well, it tells you that that people are looking for scapegoats and stocking horses and -- and that immigration policy is unpopular. It's a good issue for Republicans.

And he's the -- he's in charge. And Joe Biden is ultimately in charge, of course. And that the state of American politics is that you want to grab on to the brass ring, the easiest thing. And he was -- he was low-hanging fruit, whatever you want to call it.

(LAUGHTER)

BORGER: And he was -- he's there. And so they said, OK, let's -- let's impeach him.

This is really about impeaching policy not about impeaching a person. And that's the problem with this whole procedure, which is they disagree with immigration policy. And as was pointed out before, there was an opportunity to change immigration policy and Donald Trump put the kibosh on it. If you'll recall, it almost passed.

So I think that this is the American public, as Ron was saying, will probably see this for what it is, which is a show, but also understanding that Joe Biden may well have to do something on immigration to appease the electorate before November.

[13:35:52]

DEAN: Yes. And to Gloria's point there, Ron, look, this is what it is. But in the data that were getting, in the polling that were seeing from voters, immigration is a concern for voters out there, especially in some of these swing states that are going to matter a lot to Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

And so that continues to be a key issue that is going to drive us toward November.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, absolutely. And, as said earlier, Biden polls more poorly on immigration than almost any other subject, except possibly inflation.

I do think immigration is reflective of a dynamic that is absolutely pivotal on this election across a whole range of issues. And that is that, as I said, voters are very discontented with Biden's record on immigration. And he gets bad marks, even among a surprising percentage of Democrats.

It's hard for him to want to change that retrospective judgment on his performance very much between now and November.

On the other hand, a lot of the things that Donald Trump is talking about doing on immigration are going to test kind of the public tolerance as well.

I mean, he's talking about mass deportation, internment camps unilateral military action against Mexico, including a blockade, ending birthright citizenship.

He would not rule out, in a CNN town hall last year, restoring his policy of separating kids from families, from their parents at the border.

And so on all of these fronts, voters may be unhappy about what Biden has done. That doesn't necessarily mean they want to buy the direction that Trump is proposing.

And that applies to a lot of different issues, on the economy, with tax cuts, et cetera.

So I do think that, like, this is an interesting place, an interesting kind of encapsulation of the larger challenge. Trump largely wants voters to look back and kind of assess what the Biden four years have done, compared to what he says was his record his four years.

Biden mostly wants voters to look forward and assess what each man would do with power if returned to the White House for four more years. Immigration really captures that dynamic.

SANCHEZ: Yes, it appears that now we've reached the letter "C" in the alphabetical signing of --

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: -- many minutes.

SANCHEZ: Yes. I think I just saw Senator Tom Cotton there, so still a long way to go as they certify themselves as jurors.

We want to go to the White House now with CNN White House correspondent, Priscilla Alvarez, who's been tracking the White House response to these proceedings.

And we understand, Priscilla, that the White House has been in close touch with officials over at DHS as all of this is unfolded.

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Ever since these proceedings got underway, the White House and Homeland Security officials have been in close touch, gaming out strategies and responses.

Often in taking to the split-screen moment strategy ,and showing that House Republicans, for example, they opened up this impeachment inquiry, were doing so by leaving reform, immigration reform by the wayside, particularly when that border deal came to a vote, one that the Homeland Security secretary worked closely on with Senators on both sides of the aisle.

And still the House Republicans pushed forward with their impeachment of the secretary.

So it was clear from the very beginning that the DHS secretary was going to be a top target for - with Republicans as soon as they took control of Congress. And that is what we have seen play out.

And over every week and month, the White House and Homeland Security officials had been in close touch, trying to sort out what to do and what the strategy was going to be.

And it usually boiled down to, this is a meritless impeachment inquiry, that it's a political stunt, and that policy does not -- it does not get to the point of high crimes and misdemeanors as many legal experts have said.

Now, I spoke with the secretary earlier this month in a roundtable with reporters, and he simply said that his focus was on the job. He was on the Hill yesterday where he was testifying on the Homeland Security budget.

He is in New York today where he is focused on an awareness campaign for child exploitation. And he'll be back on the Hill tomorrow, focusing on the budget.

I mentioned all those things because, when asked about this, that's what the secretary points to, that he's kept his head down and continues to do the work, and really dismiss this as the political stunt that White House -- that the White House and the department as a whole has cast this as.

So they're watching all of this very closely. They're monitoring. But they are also very well aware of that comes down onto a matter of policy disagreements over border policy.

And of course, immigration has been a political vulnerability for President Biden since he took office, and when they've tried to flip the script on him with that Senate border deal, which was tanked after former President Donald Trump told Republicans not to move forward with it. But it doesn't mean that this issue goes away for President Biden. And

this impeachment inquiry, as much as it is about the Homeland Security secretary, really is about border policy.

And it just goes to show how Republicans are continuing to hammer the administration over this, even as the White House tries to change the narrative.

[13:40:01]

DEAN: All right. Priscilla Alvarez, for us live at the White House.

Again, you are watching as all 100 Senators signed the oath book there as this impeachment trial gets underway. It appears we are in the "H"s. That is Senator Josh Hawley there. So we're making our way down on the list.

We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:45:54]

SANCHEZ: We are watching history on Capitol Hill on the Senate floor. Right now, the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, appears to be signing in the oath book to be sworn in as a juror in the impeachment trial of the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas.

Still a long way to go. Senator Bob Menendez there now. So we're in the "M"s. They're going through alphabetical order, four at a time. We're, of course, going to keep an eye on the Senate side.

But we do want to update you another breaking headline from Capitol Hill on the House side. Embattled Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson says he is going to hold a vote on a series of foreign aid bills on Saturday, and he's planning to tie them together.

DEAN: It is the very thing Democrats have asked for. And exactly what the far-right members of his own party have threatened to oust him over.

CNN anchor and chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju, is joining us now with the latest.

Manu, there are still a lot of moving parts about how this will be put together, how the - what -- who will vote on the rule, et cetera, et cetera. Give us the state of play.

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR & CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. This is a key moment here in the House over this furious battle to fund the - Ukraine, give it aid that it's saying it desperately needs at this critical moment.

Republicans have been badly divided for months. And now the speaker of the House indicating he's prepared to move forward the package that includes aid to Ukraine.

They're planning to vote on separate bills in the House on Friday, splitting up this aid package between Israel, Ukraine and Taiwan, some other measures as well, including a potential ban on TikTok.

But after they vote on them separately, they'll be tied together. We expect them to be tied together as one big bill that will go back to the United States.

And that is causing furious anger among the right wing of his party because a lot of Republicans on that right flank have said there're should we absolutely no more money spent for Ukraine.

They're also demanding new border security measures to be part of any deal. And that is not expected to be part of this underlying bill that eventually passes the House, if it does get the votes.

I spent the morning talking to a lot of those members on the far right. And many of them are indicated that they may support an effort to oust Mike Johnson from his job.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Is the speaker just out of his element here?

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): No, I just think the speaker needs to get home and listen to our base.

REP. ANDY BIGGS (R-AZ): I'm not very pleased with him.

RAJU: Would you support a motion to vacate?

BIGGS: That's hypothetical. I think that's, frankly, more bluster than real.

RAJU: How disappointed are you at the speaker?

REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): Very. I mean, I'm well past the point of giving grace here.

REP. ERIC BURLISON (R-MS): I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm not happy about this rule. He's pushing us to the brink here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And the leader of this effort, Marjorie Taylor Greene, I just caught up with her in the hallways of the capital and I asked her if she's planning to move forward.

The call for this vote, which any member can do, to seek the speaker's ouster.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Is your support for your motion to vacate growing? MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): It is growing. And I think some people

are becoming more angry than I am. So this - we'll see what happens today. I don't know how much longer our members are going to tolerate the Republican speaker that we elected to pass our agenda in the House.

We don't know -- I don't know how long people are going to tolerate this because he's doing nothing but starting the Democrats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, the Republicans are badly divided over this. As I mentioned, there are a number of Republicans who are coming to the speaker's defense who do support more aid to Ukraine.

But expect this to be this vote, when it happens, to show potentially a minority of Republicans that could happen, who actually support this because Johnson will have to rely on Democratic support to get this over the finish line. And that is clearly his calculus here.

And also there, which could be part of it, will Democrats come to his aid to save him from that threat of being ousted from the speakership? Much different than a historic and unprecedented ouster of Kevin McCarthy last fall when Democrats all voted with eight Republicans to oust him from the speakership.

This time, many Democrats are indicating that they may save Speaker Johnson, in large part, because of his decision to move ahead with aid to Ukraine.

SANCHEZ: Yes. All the action on Capitol Hill just underscores today the importance and the significance of the issue of immigration and just how divisive it's been.

Manu Raju, thank you so much for the update.

We're continuing to watch on the Senate side as a group of Senators get sworn in. There you have, I believe that's Chuck Schumer? It is. The majority leader has sworn in as a juror the impeachment trial of Secretary Mayorkas. We're going to take a quick break as we get through the "S"s and hopefully come back once this gets underway. Stay with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:54:07]

DEAN: And welcome back. We are watching now the Senate floor. It looks like Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, is speaking, as I believe they have completed all of the signatures.

Let's listen in.

MURRAY: All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of imprisonment while the Senate of the United States is convened as a court of impeachment to consider the articles of impeachment against Alejandro N. Mayorkas, secretary of Homeland Security.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Madam President --

MURRAY: The majority leader is recognized.

SCHUMER: In a moment, I will ask unanimous consent to allow for debate time to allow for Republicans to offer and have votes on trial resolutions and allow for Republicans to offer and have votes on points of order.

[13:55:02]

So I ask unanimous consent that Senator Lee be recognized to offer a resolution that is the text of Esra (ph) 624 ,the full Senate trial. That Senator Cruz be recognized to offer a resolution that is the text of Esra (ph) 62, to the trial ill committee, that there then be up to 60 minutes of debate on the resolutions concurrently and equally divided between the two leaders or their designees.

And following the use or yielding back of that time, the Senate vote on, or in relation to the resolutions in the order listed, with no amendments to the resolutions in order.

Further, that following the disposition of the trial resolutions, if they are not agreed to, Senator Schumer, as designee, be recognized to make a motion to dismiss the first article of impeachment.

That the motion be subject to only seven points of order, that there be up to 60 minutes for debate concurrently and equally divided on the motion to dismiss and the points of order.

And that following the use or yielding back of that time, the Senate vote in relation to the points of order in the order raised and the motion to dismiss.

Further, that if Senator Schumer or his designee makes a motion to dismiss the second article of impeachment, that the motion be subject to only one point of order, that there'll be up to 60 minutes for debate concurrently then equally divided on the motion to dismiss and the points of order.

And that following the use or yielding back of that time, the Senate vote in relation to the points of order in the order raised and the motion to dismiss.

Following, that further, the disposition -- further disposition of Article II the Senate vote on the motion to adjourn the court of impeachments sine dia (ph).

Finally, that there be up to four minutes for debate equally divided between the two leaders or their designees prior to each roll call vote, all without intervening action or debate.

MURRAY: Is there an objection?

UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: Present. MURRAY: Senator from Missouri?

UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: Reserving my right to object.

To dismiss or table articles of impeachment against Secretary Mayorkas without a trial here today or in committee is an unprecedented move by Senator Schumer.

Never before in the history of our republic has the Senate dismissed or tabled articles of impeachment when the impeached individual was alive and had not resigned.

As Senator Schumer said in 2020, quote, "A fair trial has witnesses, a fair trial has relevant documents as part of the record, a fair trial seeks the truth, nothing more, nothing less."

I will not assist Senator Schumer in setting our Constitution ablaze in bulldogs -- in bulldozing 200 years of precedent.

Therefore, I object.

SCHUMER: Madam president --

MURRAY: Objection is heard.

SCHUMER: Madam President, I raise a point of order that impeachment Article I does not allege conduct that rises to the level of a high crime or misdemeanor as required under Article II, Section 4 of the United States Constitution and is therefore unconstitutional.

MURRAY: Under the precedence and practices of the Senate, the chair has no power or authority to pass on such a point of order. The chair, therefore, under the precedence of the Senate, submits the question to the Senate.

Is the point of order well-taken?

The Republican leader is recognized.

The clerk will call the roll.

UNIDENTIFIED SENATE CLERK: (INAUDIBLE)

(SILENCE)

[13:59:53]

DEAN: OK, so you are watching the Senate floor right now as the impeachment trial is underway for Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas.

And, Boris, we were watching as Senator Schumer was talking and Senate Pro Tem Patty Murray. There's a lot of arcane procedures.