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Senate Impeachment Proceedings For DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas; Negotiations And Partisanship In The Senate; Public Protests In Pennsylvania; State-Level Legal Developments On Abortion In Arizona. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired April 17, 2024 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: And Boris, we were watching as Senator Schumer was talking and Senate Pro tem (ph) Patty Murray. There's a lot of arcane procedure.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Right.
DEAN: Even you see they're having to read what they have been told to say because this doesn't happen all the time. And this is impeachment is still rare, although getting more frequent. And we have not seen a cabinet secretary impeached in well over 150 years. So let's go to Michael Gerhart now. And Michael, just to sum it up, I think we've got it right here. But essentially, the Senate majority leader put out kind of a plan, a roadmap for how they could do this that would allow Republicans to bring amendments to debate. There would be equal time split between the two parties. And then it was Senator Eric Schmidt of Missouri that objected to that. And now they are, I believe, taking a roll call on just the premise on which they would be able to move forward. Is that correct?
MICHAEL GERHARDT, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's just a little different than that, if I may say so. I think what Senator Schumer began with was basically calling the Republicans bluff. He said, if we can get everybody, all 100 to agree, then we will proceed in the following manner, which would have taken several hours. Almost immediately, there's an objection from the senator from Missouri saying he's going to object, that he's not going to agree to that, in which case everything that Senator Schumer just proposed falls to the wayside. And then Senator Schumer was prepared to move forward. With the point of order, the point of order is something that is immediately taken up, it supersedes any other pending business.
And a point of order is concerned with whether or not the Senate understands and is following properly its own rules. So, the point of order that Senators Schumer made was, well, in that case we need to vote on whether or not the first article of impeachment made against the secretary is constitutional. I think we know where that's going to go. I think a majority of the senate will likely vote it's not constitutional in which case it's effectively removed or dismissed.
SANCHEZ: We have Melanie Zanona standing by watching all of this unfold on Capitol Hill. Melanie, notably now that the senate is moving to potentially dismiss at least article one against Secretary Mayorkas, it may not strictly break down on party lines right because there have been republican senators that have come forward and said that they would move to support the either dismissal or tabling the articles of impeachment.
MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yeah that's right and two Republicans that we're watching very closely on this vote are Mitt Romney and Lisa Murkowski. Two Republicans who have bucked their own party for when it comes to matters of impeachment. So we are expecting that this effort right now which is to kill that first article of impeachment, is going to succeed. And the question here is whether it rises to the level of an impeachable offense. That is something that Democrats and some Republicans have argued does not meet that very high bar and very high standard. They said this is more of a policy dispute that Republicans are just using as sort of a political punching bag to make their point over the border.
But, of course, you're seeing this all play out on the Senate floor right now. A very rare moment, we should say, to see an impeachment trial of a cabinet official. This is something that has not happened in nearly 150 years. So even though we know how this is going to end, it is not going to result in a conviction based on all of our reporting. There is a question of just how quickly they get there. And we should note that at the top there, Chuck Schumer did try to make this unanimous consent request. He tried to get an agreement here that would have set up some floor debates, some speeches, some votes that Republicans could have taken. He could have taken on amendments. But a Republican senator objected to that. They are pushing for a full trial, something that Schumer and Democrats have made clear is not going to fly. So we'll have to watch this all play out on the floor. A lot of arcane procedural moments right now. But a big moment here as we watch them take the vote to kill this first article impeachment.
DEAN: And, Melanie, we know you'll be watching that very closely while this is playing out. Let's talk to Tim Naftali. Because, Tim, Melanie touched on kind of the historic nature of all of this. And we keep kind of repeating this but it bears repeating that we haven't seen a cabinet secretary who's been impeached since essentially the Civil War era. And again, just to remind everyone, this is impeachment is pertains to high crimes and misdemeanors. Constitutional experts have said that this case does not meet that. Obviously, they're voting right now on if it's constitutional or not. Help us understand the historic nature of all of this and give us some context around what we're watching play out on that Senate floor.
TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well when the founders were trying to figure out a way to remove a civil officer, including a president during their time in office, they wondered about what kinds of infractions or abuses would be required.
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What is the threshold for removing someone? And during the debates, they said, well, what about maladministration? In other words, bad policies. What if the Congress does not like the policies of the president or a member of the president's cabinet? And James Madison made an impassioned plea successfully, that maladministration is absolutely the wrong standard, because you're all going to disagree on what a bad policy is. Now, they weren't thinking in terms of formal parties, they were just thinking of policy differences. And he said, that shouldn't be it. And they decided as a group that bad policy or maladministration would not be included among the requirements for impeachment.
Instead, they chose high crimes and misdemeanors, as well as bribery and treason. High crimes being crimes against the state, not perjury, not cheating on your taxes, as they would have understood them in that era. No, no, crimes against the constitutional nature of the state. And the challenge for the Senate now, which if it goes forward with this trial, only by the way, historically, the 22nd trial in the Senate, they would be debating something that I'm sure most members of the Senate know, doesn't even come close to the threshold of high crimes and misdemeanors. There are ways of doing this that would involve basically convening a special committee of the Senate. It's been done twice before in the cases of two judges, Elsie Hastings and Claiborne. There was a debate over the constitutionality of what the House had sent over. You have a special committee that meets and then provides a report to the full Senate, and you don't necessarily then have to have a full Senate trial. I'm not saying that they're going to do that now, but what's so interesting about our constitutional system is it's really up to the Senate how it conducts the trial. Something may be unprecedented, but that doesn't mean it's unconstitutional. It's up to the Senate to decide how they deal with the articles of impeachment sent over by the House. They're allowed to be creative.
SANCHEZ: Gloria, we were just talking a moment ago about the issues that House Speaker Mike Johnson is facing, trying to get these foreign aid bills passed, trying to potentially attach an immigration bill to those, in part to acquiesce to the right flank in his base, in his conference that is pushing a very aggressive platform on immigration. This Senate trial that we're watching is evidence of that. Walk us through the path forward that Mike Johnson faces, because even getting to this point was a challenge for him.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. I mean, first of all, he came out with three or four different bills. Look, he has had a very difficult time because of the narrow margin. He's got this group of Freedom Caucus members who don't want him to cut any deals on Ukraine, on aid to Ukraine. And so he's caught. And these are some of the same people who want to impeach Mayorkas. And it is because they are more interested in issues than in governing. And when you become the Speaker of the House, a part of you has to say, look, it's my responsibility to govern. And this is what Mike Johnson is saying. This is what some Democrats are saying who say they might vote with Mike Johnson, even though they don't like him. They'll hold their noses and do it if they have to to get that money for Ukraine. And what you're seeing play out in the Senate is really about this issue of immigration.
I mean, Mayorkas is just the vehicle here. But the more Republicans can talk about the failures on immigration, the maladministration, as it's called, of immigration policy, the better it is for them. And the White House understands that. And Mayorkas is just the vehicle for it. So we see this playing out really in both houses and also all around the country in down-ballot races. And so we know that it's going to be one of the biggest issues heading into this next election. And one of the reasons Republicans want this debate on the Senate floor is they want people to pay attention to it and they want to draw attention to it. And when you have an impeachment debate on the floor of the Senate, people tend to sit up and listen. And what Chuck Schumer is saying is this is unconstitutional and we're not going to abide by this.
DEAN: Okay, so what you're watching now on the Senate floor is the Senate is setting up a vote to kill the first impeachment article against the homeland security secretary. So we will watch how this kind of unfolds before us. We're going to squeeze in a quick break and we'll be right back.
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[14:14:48]
SANCHEZ: Breaking news, we're following live images out of Pittsburgh. There's a vocal group of protesters awaiting the arrival of President Joe Biden, Biden on a three day swing of Pennsylvania. These protesters are standing just across the entrance at the Steelworkers headquarters in downtown Pittsburgh where the president is set to speak.
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Obviously, the protesters are demonstrating against Israel's war in Gaza. They are chanting for the administration to change its policy toward Israel. Of course, this is supposed to be a friendly event for President Biden. The Union of Steelworkers endorsed him last month. He is also set to announce his support for tariffs against Chinese steel coming into the United States. The president there obviously trying to strengthen his link to a key part of his base and his bid for reelection being met there by protesters outside of the event. We do have some reporters who are monitoring the situation there. We'll get to them in just moments.
DEAN: In the meantime, let's take you back to the Senate floor as the impeachment trial of the DA. DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas gets underway. And what we have been watching play out and what we are currently seeing at this moment in time, now that all of the senators have been sworn in as jurors, there has been some back and forth. They are setting up a vote to effectively kill the first article of impeachment. So we are waiting to see that kind of play out. And Gloria Borger is here with us in studio. And Gloria, as we watch this play out, I'm curious. What do you think the average American who is probably at work right now or maybe taking care of their kids or, you know, an aging parent, whatever they're doing today, what do they make of all of this?
BORGER: I think I think not much. I think honestly, they've heard an awful lot about immigration policy. And Mayorkas is not a household name. And I think that this is a lot of pomp here. And once the debate gets going, maybe people will pay more attention to it. But I think in the end, they'll be interested in the result, which will be that he will not be impeached and that perhaps it will be the whole issue will be found unconstitutional. I mean, if there were to be a different result, I think you'd have public standing up and paying a little bit more attention. But he's not the president of the United States. And I think, you know, the question you might ask is, well, what does this have to do then? How does this bode for any potential impeachment of Joe Biden? Right. You know, we're talking about Mayorkas today. And there are people in the House talking about a potential impeachment of Joe Biden. And so far, they haven't come up with much to do that either. So, you know, this could be just regarded as a performative stunt.
SANCHEZ: Yeah. A lot more support for impeaching Mayorkas among those House Republicans. And that barely got-
BORGER: Right, exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: -to where it is right now. So it could be an indicator of where things stand with the potential impeachment of President Biden. We also have Michael Gerhardt with us who knows the inner workings of these impeachment proceedings fairly well, arguably among the best minds when it comes to this stuff. Michael, as we're watching right now, bring us up to speed on what we're waiting for. There's going to be a vote at some point based on the point of order that Majority Leader Schumer made regarding the Constitutionality of one of these articles of impeachment. One of my questions is, why does this move so slowly?
GERHARDT: Well, it moves slowly, I think, to ensure that there's deliberation. Also, the Senate has its own unique set of rules for impeachment proceedings. And for senators who are institutionalists, who care about the integrity of the institution, they want to be sure, not just now, but for the historical record, to demonstrate that they are remaining faithful to the rules and processes of the Senate. And so Senator Schumer, the majority leader, who clearly cares about the institution, is trying to demonstrate in virtually everything he's doing here that he cares about the integrity of the Senate. And he wants to be sure the Senate crosses its T's and dots its I's appropriately. The other thing I might just add is something to underscore the political-the partisanship of the attempt to impeach Mayorkas.
It's a distraction. What's going on now as well in New York is a criminal trial of Donald Trump. And so another motivation for Republicans to push the impeachment against Mayorkas is to distract from the trial of Donald Trump. Nothing but political and partisan reasons for the impeachment of Secretary Mayorkas. And I think that's yet another reason why Senator Schumer and the Democrats want to cut this off now.
DEAN: Yeah. And we're going to see if they're able to do that. In the meantime, let's go to our chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju. He is there on Capitol Hill.
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Manu, we understand you're kind of getting a little bit of the behind the scenes. In these situations, there's a lot of wheeling and dealing that's going on on that floor as well. What are you learning?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, look, this is part of the nature of the United States Senate. This is why it's the world's most deliberative body, because they actually have to agree to a set of procedures on how to move forward here. And that's exactly what we're witnessing here. The reason why the Senate is not moving ahead at this moment is because there are negotiations that are happening about trying to structure a series of votes to allow Republicans to make their points on the floor of the Senate. That would require, that would include calling for a full-blown trial, among some other issues as well. That agreement, as you saw before this led to this situation, we're in a bit of a stalemate here. They tried to reach an agreement, but a Republican objected to it. You saw Senator Eric Schmidt of Missouri come up and said he does not agree to this because part of that time agreement that Chuck Schumer tried to lay down in the Senate included a motion to dismiss these charges overall.
Republicans are trying to push back against any effort to dismiss these charges, which forced Chuck Schumer to say, OK, let's just kill these proceedings altogether. We'll kill this first article of impeachment. When he says a point of order and it doesn't rise to the constitutionality, that's really just a fancy way of saying, let's kill this first article and be done with it. And then they would move in immediately almost after that vote, which would succeed because they have the votes in the Senate to kill that first article. Then they would do the same thing in the second vote. So the reason why they're in this position right now is because Republicans don't want to end this right now. They want to try to delay this as long as they can. Some of them, particularly the ones who are arguing that there needs to be a full-blown trial or make their points that Democrats are not handling this effectively, have essentially stalled action in the Senate.
So the question is going to be when they eventually get out of what's known as a quorum call, which is the thing you're seeing right now where the Senate is really doing nothing other than talking behind the scenes, what will they do to set up additional votes? Will Republicans be satisfied with what Chuck Schumer is proposing to give them some votes? Will they not be satisfied? Will it lead to this more stalemate? But at the end of the day, despite the votes that are going to happen, we know the ultimate outcome, Alejandro Mayorkas will not be convicted by this Democratic-led Senate. The only matter of time is how to get there. But Senate being the United States Senate, you need all 100 senators to agree on having a vote. And if any one senator has their own idea, then that doesn't happen. So that's what's going on right now, guys.
SANCHEZ: A lot of deliberating going on behind the scenes. As Manu described it, nothing is happening on the floor of the Senate. Manu, please stand by. We want to go to MJ Lee, who's live for us at the White House. MJ, we just a moment ago updated viewers on the situation outside the headquarters of the U.S. Steelworkers Union where President Biden is expected to give remarks this afternoon. He's going to be met by protesters outside. But obviously, the White House is watching these impeachment proceedings closely. We know that they've been in close contact with officials over at DHS. Do we know if the president is monitoring this directly?
MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, you know, there's no question, even as President Biden is traveling today, he is going to be kept up to date by his advisers on everything that is going on. And that is in keeping with as you've just said, Boris, the White House is close coordination with DHS over the last few months as Republicans have attempted to go down this impeachment route. There is particularly this group of lawyers in the White House Counsel's Office that deals with all issues related to congressional oversight of the White House. That team has been in close contact with lawyers at DHS to make sure that Secretary Mayorkas and their team of lawyers has sort of the support that they need as they have navigated this incredibly political fraud issue and fight unfolding in Washington. And, you know, if you've listened over the last few months, the White House's pushback on all of this has been pretty consistent.
They have referred to this as a political stunt. They have said that all of this is completely lacking in merit, that all of this is also unconstitutional. And, you know, one of the pieces of political ammunition that the White House feels like it got was when Republicans on Capitol Hill signed a border policy package that could have gotten bipartisan support to essentially fall by the wayside. You know, their argument has basically been, look, you want to vilify Mayorkas for all of the issues on the border? Well, you had a chance. You actually had a chance to get a package passed and get some policy changes through on Capitol Hill. But because of Republicans and some Republicans' refusal to get aboard this bill, that bill is not something that we were able to get signed into law. So I think they were able to sort of seize on that to make their point that, again, all of this, in their view, is completely political.
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But as you've been talking about, there's no question that Secretary Mayorkas has really become, in many ways, the face of just the political fighting and just the fraught nature of this issue in general. You know, Republicans have long sought to point the finger at Democrats for all of the issues that we have seen on the border. And Mayorkas, of course, has come to sort of symbolize that fighting between Republicans and Democrats. But again, as we were talking about before, absolutely expect that advisers to the president are keeping him posted on everything that is going on today, given the political gravity of all of this.
SANCHEZ: MJ Lee, live for us at the White House. MJ, please stand by. We are following more breaking news out of Arizona, where House lawmakers are seeking to repeal a near total ban on abortion that dates back to the Civil War. The state Supreme Court revived that 1860-ish law last week.
DEAN: We've gone back to the 1860s. It's been several stories. Natasha Chen is in Phoenix for us. Natasha, what are you learning?
NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, just in the last few minutes, another attempt to bring this repeal bill to the House floor has failed. That's a couple of attempts today to bypass procedural rules, because technically a bill has to be heard in a committee before it goes to the full floor. So as of right now, it does not look like this repeal can be considered by the full House. This has been attempted before. If you're asking why it took until right now to try to appeal a law from the 1860s, it has been attempted before and also failed to get any traction. So that's where we are. This has happened today because of the state Supreme Court ruling last week that was an attempt to clarify or harmonize the existing laws in Arizona, because just a couple of years ago, Arizona passed a 15-week abortion ban, and yet you also had this law on the books dating back to the 1860s that outlaws nearly all abortions, except in the case of saving the life of the mother.
And so that decision last week was to say that that law holds. And this comes with a potential punishment of two to five years in prison for abortion providers. This morning, we saw a lot of people, about 100 people gathered from the Right to Life group. They entered the gallery to try and speak. A lot of them told me how much they value life and that they are pro-life. And yet when you ask them details about what they support, whether they support any exceptions for rape or incest, which this 1860s law does not, whether they support prison time for abortion providers, you'd get slightly different answers depending on whom you ask.
So I think that reflects just how difficult and nuanced this conversation is in the state of Arizona and nationwide, because even if 100 people there say they're all pro-life, that may mean slightly different. different exceptions or allowances depending on who it is and so we are monitoring what's happening on the floor now. You know even if they did bypass procedures to be able to take a vote on the repeal let's say hypothetically if the house did repeal that, it would still have to go to the other chamber the senate. And the senate would have to hear this three times before they take a vote. So we are watching this incremental process of course in a state where the Republican majority in both chambers is razor thin at the moment. Just a majority of two Republicans in both House and Senate.
We are also talking about a state that has since 2020 gone Democratic for the senate races, the gubernatorial race and so a lot has changed here this is a dynamic situation. You also have a group of people gathering signatures to try and put an initiative on the November ballot to try to enshrine abortion rights in the state's constitution. A lot of the folks here today in the Right to Life group told me how seriously they are concerned about that. So that is bound to be another fight in the months to come. Boris, Jessica.
SANCHEZ: Natasha help us clear this up. There are republican leaders including former President Trump and Kari Lake who's now running for senate in Arizona that have come out and said that they oppose this law. In the case of Lake she actually called it a great, soon after the Dobbs decision. Nevertheless they now oppose this law. So why are Republicans in the legislature now blocking debate on a repeal? CHEN: That is an excellent question. I think it's going to depend on the area that those Republicans represent. In fact one state representative who is a Republican, represents Maricopa County, is in a very tight race. And he is he has come out to say that he believes that the repeal should be considered.
