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Soon: Trump's Hush Money Trial Resumes, Supreme Court Hears Trump Immunity Case; Biden Administration Finalized Highly Anticipated Rules For Power Plants; Sec. Blinken Meeting With Chinese Leaders In Beijing. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired April 25, 2024 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:31:30]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, this is CNN's special live coverage of a dizzying day in court -- two courts.

The Supreme Court about to hear arguments over whether Donald Trump is immune from prosecution over January 6. And in the New York criminal case, former National Enquirer publisher David Pecker takes the stand poised to discuss the most sensitive details about efforts to bury stories regarding a Playboy playmate and also a former adult film actress. And at any moment, we could learn whether Trump will be held in contempt for comments he has made about the jury and others.

CNN's Brynn Gingras outside court for us this morning. And I have to say, it was a cliffhanger when we last heard from David Pecker. He had just started speaking about Karen McDougal. Today promises potentially to be blockbuster.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah, that's right, John. A cliffhanger not only about what David Pecker was testifying about but also a cliffhanger regarding the gag order, right? We're still trying to see if the judge is going to make a decision about that gag order, which was brought up the last time we had a court, which was on Tuesday. So we have no idea if that's going to happen. We are certainly looking out for that.

But Donald Trump, outside Trump Tower just this morning, talking about it again. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They've taken my constitutional right away with a gag order. That's all it is. It's election interference. This whole thing is election interference. So the polls have just come out and I'm -- I just got another --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: Now, of course, he didn't mention someone that he has mentioned a lot when he talks to the press, and that is about one of the witnesses in this case, Michael Cohen. However, Michael Cohen, overnight, was tweeting about him and this gag

order. But he said this. He said, "Despite not being the gagged defendant, out of respect for Judge Merchan and the prosecutors, I will cease posting anything about Donald until after my trial testimony."

So it seems that he is no longer going to be tweeting about his former boss. He, of course, is going to be a main witness in this case.

But as you said, John, the first order -- or maybe if -- maybe second order of business -- we'll see -- is testimony continuing of the former National Enquirer publisher, David Pecker. He was getting into the details about Karen McDougal. How they learned about that alleged affair. The process of possibly burying that story. And we fully expect him to get to the heart of this case, which is the alleged affair with Stormy Daniels.

So we'll certainly have some details later today, John.

BERMAN: Yeah, and a lot of it could happen very quickly once trial resumes this morning.

Brynn Gingras, great to have you there. Thank you -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And that is the case in New York. We also have two other legal headlines -- three major legal headlines today with Donald Trump. The two others including the U.S. Supreme Court and the immunity case that is now going to be heard in oral arguments. And also, the indictment just handed up in Arizona overnight related to the election subversion in 2020 there.

Let's discuss it. Joining us right now is a former federal prosecutor, Temidayo Aganga-Williams. He was former senior investigative counsel for the January 6 Committee. And, Elliot Williams, a former federal prosecutor and CNN legal analyst. Guys, thank you so much.

I want to focus first on the Supreme Court -- on the Supreme Court case and the arguments that are about to be heard.

Temidayo, you submitted an amicus brief to the court on this case and in it, you argue against immunity for the -- for a president -- for Trump, for a variety of reasons. What do you say is the most important reason?

[07:35:00]

TEMIDAYO AGANGA-WILLIAMS, FORMER SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL, JANUARY 6 COMMITTEE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR (via Webex by Cisco): So I think the most important reason is that if there is going to be finding of immunity it's going to be premised upon the importance of protecting the presidency itself -- that article two power. But if there's any space where the court should not incentivize a president to take bold action, it will be in efforts to stay in power. And that's exactly the facts that we have here.

It's a very different fact pattern to have a president thinking about military action and thinking about other policy considerations versus what we have here, which is post-election bold and unlawful action to stay in power. And to protect that kind of behavior will only incentivize it because presidents really -- you know, they should not be having immunity when they're trying to maintain such extensive and broad power.

BOLDUAN: And Elliot, Donald Trump has made the case -- well, in court and outside of courtrooms -- that he has -- he should have and does have and needs to have, as president, total and complete immunity.

He -- when he was making a campaign stop this morning and spoke to reporters in New York, he talked about this yet again. Let me play this for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We have a big case today. This judge isn't allowing me to go. We have a big case today in the Supreme Court of presidential immunity. A president has to have immunity. If you -- if you don't have immunity, you just have a ceremonial president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Look, Temidayo was just speaking, kind of, the counter of that, specifically. But you hear that and you say what, Elliot?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: Well, he does have immunity. Presidents do have immunity and no one -- and quite frankly, probably the Supreme Court -- will not dispute that presidents are immune from civil suits for things they do in office. You can't sue the president just because you didn't like that you didn't get your Social Security check on time. That's presidential immunity. That's immunity for the Executive Branch.

What is at issue here is the president totally immune from criminal prosecution for acts? And the example that the Trump team did not have a good answer for in lower courts was can a president use SEAL Team Six or a drone strike to attack a political opponent? That is -- that would strain logic to say that's not a crime under any circumstances and no one on the Trump team has been able to rebut that.

So it's really all about how the Supreme Court writes this. Do they write it in such a manner that ends up leading to more months and months of litigation, or do they just put a stop to it right now? And that's an open question.

BOLDUAN: And, Temidayo, you also think that when that decision comes -- when in terms of when the justices hand down a decision that is critical. Why?

AGANGA-WILLIAMS: Because it's been apparent that the former president's legal team is focused on one thing and that is delay, delay, delay. And if their view has always been if the president -- the former president can get back at the power, that these cases will go away. So I think it's not only whether or not he loses or wins at the court, it's how quickly the court moves.

There is a world where he loses on the substance, but the court issues a decision late in July. That would be bad to Jack Smith's timeline. It could be that he loses but the court sends that case back to Judge Chutkan at trial level for more findings. Again, that's bad for Jack Smith's timeline.

So if you're the former president, all you're looking for here is no bold action by the court. You don't want a decisive sweeping decision that said the immunity. You want something either in the middle or a full victory.

I don't think any serious legal scholars think the court is going to come out and adopt an absolute immunity framework, but there is a real risk that they're going to do something in the middle that's going to have this case dragging on.

And if you look at the timeline we're under so far, the court has not moved quickly here. They have not acted like this case is truly an emergency. So I don't suspect they're going to do so with their decision.

BOLDUAN: Even though a lot of it has gone under kind of the label of expedited and emergency, but I think -- but I guess those are all relative terms when it comes to the Supreme Court, as you guys well know.

Elliot, let's turn to Arizona really quickly. Is this indictment that happened overnight -- is this the 2.0 version of Georgia with the biggest difference being that Donald Trump is not indicted? And why do you think he wasn't charged?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's a great analysis. It's 2.0.1, right? It's not -- it's sort of related by not the same indictment.

I think what's interesting is who's in and who's out. And states that have chosen to pursue these 2020 election claims -- some of them have gone by charging only fake electors, as happened in a couple of states. Some have charged fake electors and members of the Trump campaign or Trump inner circle. That happened here and in Georgia.

It's related, but it's entirely a fair question. Why isn't the former president charged when two of his closest associates in the form of Mark Meadows and Rudy Giuliani are? Now, it probably -- prosecutors just didn't have direct evidence linking Donald Trump where they felt comfortable charging him with a crime. But there's a host of reasons why one person might not be charged in a big conspiracy.

[07:40:00]

BOLDUAN: And Temidayo -- I mean, just a reminder to everyone. You investigated January 6 and all the efforts to overturn the election leading up to it for the -- for the select congressional committee.

Mark Meadows is another central focus here, once again. Giuliani as well. Boris Epshteyn, though, a former White House aide who remains one of Trump's closest advisers also indicted now for the first time.

What kind of case do you think prosecutors may have there?

AGANGA-WILLIAMS: Well, I think what's going to be important there is, again, proximity to the former president. Boris Epshteyn is someone who was a director adviser to former President Trump. So although Trump is not charged here, I think 1) to Elliot's point, there's a -- there's a lot of reasons why. But I think he adds a certain element.

But I think these closer advisers, like Boris, who have been charged here -- there are all individuals who were interacting with the former president. And with any future charges, if these people here cooperate, they're going to be able to provide evidence against former President Trump for potential future indictment. And this case here has a seven-year statute of limitations, so post this election coming up, the former president still has legal liability here.

BOLDUAN: Great to see you guys. Thank you very much for coming on -- John.

BERMAN: All right. New this morning, the Biden administration has finalized highly anticipated rules to cut hazardous pollution generated by power plants. Under the regulations, coal and natural gas-powered plants will cut 90 percent of their climate pollution by 2032. That would be the equivalent of taking about 333 million gas cars off the road for a year, eliminating 1.4 billion metric tons of pollution.

CNN chief climate correspondent Bill Weir is with us on the plans and the difference it could make, Bill.

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, this is really, really significant. It essentially signals the end of coal as a power source in the United States.

Right now, four new rules changes. They also include cutting down on neurotoxin mercury, which comes out of these power plants. The coal ash that gets spilled into waterways and other wastewater.

But the big one is this new rule that would require coal-fired plants to reduce 90 percent of the planet-cooking pollution -- and right now, there's not really a technology capable of doing that. The industry has never really taken carbon capture and sequestration seriously in the United States. And so, it will essentially push most of the remaining 200 or so coal-fired plants out of business. About a quarter of them are scheduled to retire anyway.

The rule does not apply to natural gas plants. That was a sticking point as well, so the Biden administration pulled back from that. Existing natural gas plants will have to cut and get cleaner.

And this is certainly going to be challenged in court. Republican governors, utility lobbies will take this, probably, to the Supreme Court, which sort of watered down a similar rule change under the Obama administration. The Biden administration says they've got their legal ducks in a row and they're ready to fight this right now. But it is really significant. This could cut the kind of planet-

cooking pollution that comes out of these power sources by 75 percent compared to their peak of a few years ago. Most people don't realize that their utility company is a legalized monopoly not really held to the standards of the customers. You can't change to a new power company wherever you live. So it's up to regulators and local pressure to change the energy mixes as the world cleans up its energy supply, John.

BERMAN: So, big changes if it passes legal muster.

Bill Weir, thanks so much for explaining it so well.

And this is CNN's special live coverage of this historic day in court. The Supreme Court will hear arguments over whether Donald Trump is immune from prosecution over January 6. And a key witness on the stand in the New York criminal case.

Other news: An Oklahoma man on vacation now faces up to 12 years in prison because of what authorities found in his luggage. And why the U.S. fertility rate just hit its lowest level in 100 years.

First, a preview of the new CNN original series "HOW IT REALLY HAPPENED: THE SINKING OF THE TITANTIC."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the biggest controversies regarding the night of the disaster is there was a ship that was on the horizon that was seen from the Titanic. They tried calling through wireless. They tried signaling it with Morse lamp.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had the Titanic sinking. Have your boats ready.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that ship just didn't react and Capt. Smith, at one point, said what's wrong with them? Why aren't they coming to help?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's become known as the mystery ship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[07:49:00]

BERMAN: All right, this is CNN's special live coverage of this dizzying day in two New York courts. That's Trump Tower right there. Donald Trump expected to leave very shortly for his New York criminal trial while the Supreme Court hears arguments over whether Trump is immune from prosecution and whether presidents could be immune from all criminal prosecution.

Stay with CNN for special live coverage all day long.

An Oklahoma couple was in prison on Turks and Caicos after bullets were found in their luggage, which the couple said were left there inadvertently after a hunting trip. It's a serious offense in the islands with a minimum prison sentence of 12 years. The wife was released on Monday, but the husband is still behind bars. A GoFundMe page was set up to help the family.

A new federal order will require more testing and reporting of the bird flu when it is found in dairy cows. The USDA currently requires reporting of H5N1 influenza in poultry and wild birds, but producers are not required to let the government know if cows have tested positive. The USDA says the current guidelines hampered their ability to investigate the current outbreak. It has spread to 33 farms in eight states -- Kate.

[07:50:07]

BOLDUAN: So, a new report from the CDC shows that the U.S. fertility rate dropped to its lowest level in a century back in 2023. Yes, it has been trending down for decades and another drop, though, last year brought it to a new low.

There's also signs of the real impact of the Dobbs decision on abortion. Twenty-twenty-three marked the first full year after the Supreme Court overturned the federal right to have an abortion.

And a separate analysis from November suggests that states with abortion bans saw their fertility rates actually increase an average of 2.3 percent higher than states where abortion was not restricted in the first half of 2023.

CNN's Jacqueline Howard -- let's bring her in for the numbers coming out of the CDC. Jacqueline, let's talk about the overall birth rate -- fertility rate and birth rate that we're getting from this new report from the CDC. What does the CDC say about what's behind the country's drop?

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: Yeah, Kate. Well, we know that the nation's fertility rate has been declining for some time, so the CDC is really showing us that this trend is ongoing.

What these new numbers out this morning show is that last year, there were more than 3.5 million babies born here in the United States. The fertility rate last year -- the general rate showed that for every 1,000 women between the ages of 15 and 44, there were about 54 babies born. That rate is three -- is a three percent drop from the rate that we saw in the previous year, in 2022, Kate.

And that rate is below what's called replacement. Now, what replacement means is that the number of babies born is enough to replace the current generation. We are below replacement. That's generally estimated to be about 2,000 births per 1,000 women. Remember, we're at a general rate of 54 per 1,000.

So we are seeing an ongoing decline, Kate, and we're seeing that we are remaining behind replacement. Those are the two main takeaways from this new report out this morning. BOLDUAN: And one thing that we all know from our lives is that women are having children -- are giving birth to children later in life at older ages. What does the report show or say about that?

HOWARD: Yeah, this report shows that's still a trend, Kate. The rate of births that we saw among teen mothers, among women in their 20s, and among women in their 30s -- those rates are continuing to decline based on these new numbers from last year. But the rate among women in their 40s has remained the same. So this does show an ongoing trend toward older mothers.

And really, again, the main takeaway here is that these trends are continuing over time. Declines in fertility rate trends toward having babies in older age. And so, it's just a continuation of what we've seen so far and it's something scientists are continuing to track to see if it continues in the years to come, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Jacqueline Howard, thank you very much -- John.

BERMAN: All right. This morning, tension between protesters and authorities on college campuses across the country -- they resulted in hundreds of arrests. At the University of Texas, in Austin, more than 30 people were arrested in altercations with police in riot gear.

With me now is Amelia Kimball, a student at UT-Austin and associate managing editor of The Daily Texan. I know it's early in college terms and I don't know if you've been out yet, but can you give me a sense of the mood on campus this morning?

AMELIA KIMBALL, STUDENT, UT-AUSTIN, ASSOCIATE MANAGING EDITOR, THE DAILY TEXAN (via Webex by Cisco): Yeah, absolutely. So after all the events yesterday things kind of died down into the evening hours and -- but students are planning to gather again on campus today. Students are planning to walk out of classes around noon in support of our classmates who have been arrested, many of whom are at the Travis County Jail as we speak.

And so, I think there's a real feeling of betrayal on campus and I think there's a lot of anger. So we'll see what unfolds today.

BERMAN: Betrayal? Why?

KIMBALL: I think there's -- there is a lot of confusion about why yesterday's demonstration was not allowed to proceed as planned. Students' original plans included an art workshop, a teach-in, and a study break -- just a gathering on the main lawn. And state troopers were on campus before students even began to gather. And so things just escalated far beyond what students have expected at all.

And so, yeah, I think we -- I think students feel betrayed by the university and by our state government -- yeah.

BERMAN: Texas Gov. Greg Abbott -- you're talking about the state government -- he said, "These protesters belong in jail. Students joining in hate-filled antisemitic protests at any public college or university in Texas should be expelled." [07:55:05]

His description there -- "hate-filled antisemitic protests" -- based on what you saw and heard, what was the nature of the protest?

KIMBALL: I would not describe the protest as antisemitic whatsoever. There was no antisemitic imagery or sentiment being expressed. The protest was pro-Palestine. However, there -- yes, there was -- there was no antisemitic sentiment expressed whatsoever and no violence toward Jewish students. There were Jewish students participating in the demonstration.

And I think that what the governor says there is a really -- a real misrepresentation of what -- of what happened on campus.

BERMAN: Is it being made clear to students how they can protest and demonstrate without being thrown in jail?

KIMBALL: That's a great question. No, I don't think so at all. I think that there is a lot of confusion about why other demonstrations in the past have been allowed to continue and this one yesterday was not. Once again, it was completely peaceful. Students did not provoke the police whatsoever and yet, were met with, frankly, violence and a lot of arrests.

And, yes, I think that there was no understanding that this wouldn't be allowed to continue because the plans were completely peaceful. And I think students are left wondering right now how to use our first amendment rights on campus at all.

BERMAN: Was it all students, by the way? In some instances across the country -- some protests -- there have been students, but there have also been people from the outside as well.

KIMBALL: Yeah. This was -- the vast majority of the participants were students. I think there were some people who are not students or not affiliated with the university, but that's a -- that's a very small number.

BERMAN: All right, Amelia Kimball. We appreciate your being with us. Thanks so much for joining us and thank you for your reporting -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Also new this morning, a message of "deep concerns." U.S. Secretary of State Tony Blinken just arrived in Beijing where he is meeting -- he will be meeting with Chinese officials. The big focus of the visit, warning against China's continued support of Russia's military, especially during its war against Ukraine.

CNN's Kylie Atwood is live from Beijing for us. She's joining us now. Kylie, talk to us more about the message that the Secretary of State is bringing with him.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Well, he's bringing a strong message warning China from continuing to provide what is this dual-use technology and goods to Russia that is being used by Russia to build up their defense industrial base.

Now, we should note that this was a topic that came up when the Secretary of State visited China just last year, but the U.S. was really focused on preventing China from providing direct weaponry to Russia at the time. China has not gone forward with that.

But he did warn them against providing this dual-use technology -- these goods to Russia. Russia -- China, excuse me, has clearly ignored those warnings because they have gone ahead and provided those goods in a way that has enabled Russia to build up its weaponry -- its defense industrial base -- in a way that is outsized more than it has done in the last many decades.

And so, the secretary is going to make the case that China can't say that it has allies -- it has close relations with Europeans -- while it is also undertaking and threatening and fueling the largest threat to European security that we have seen since the Cold War.

The other thing that the secretary is going to talk about when he is here is pushing China to do more, doubling down on those precursor chemicals for fentanyl that are coming out of this country and heading overseas, and enabling that fentanyl that is getting into the U.S., which is one of the major killers of Americans ages 18 through 49. The Secretary of State talks about that a lot.

This is something that President Xi and President Biden said that they would work on when they met last November.

I want to point out, Kate, however, that the first day here in China for the Secretary of State was not all harsh messages. He went to a basketball game when he arrived in Shanghai. He met with students at the NYU campus in Shanghai. He met with business leaders.

Here was part of his message to students earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: This relationship between China and the United States is one of the most consequential and one of the most complicated in the world. But where the balance really comes in and where we can make sure that we are talking to each other, hearing each other, understanding each other, really comes through connections between students, business community, citizens across the board.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ATWOOD: He went on to tell those students that the relationships that they are able to build will enable the U.S. and China to avoid miscommunication between the two countries in the future.

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