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Protesters Defy Deadline To Leave Encampment Or Be Suspended; Unrest at College Campuses Amid Israel-Hamas War Protests; State Dept: Israeli Units Committed Human Rights Violation Before October 7; Hostages Appear In Hamas Video After Over 200 Days Of Captivity. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 29, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

JACOB SCHMELTZ, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY JEWISH STUDENT: When these demonstrators at the encampment have made it clear that Zionists are not welcome. This is extremely offensive to most Jewish students on campus.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: What are you hoping comes in the days ahead here? This is obviously an important deadline, Jacob, that has been set. There are many students who are obviously not going to be leaving and they are going to face suspension. What do you want to see in the days ahead for Columbia?

SCHMELTZ: It's imperative that the situation de-escalates. The university has an obligation to ensure that all students, both Jewish and Muslim, Israeli and Palestinian, feel safe, welcomed and supported on campus. That is certainly not the case at the moment and the university needs to do better.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: We're looking at some of those live pictures on your college's campus right now. It does appear peaceful for now. We certainly hope that you feel welcomed back there very soon.

Jacob Schmelz, thank you so much for speaking with us today. Appreciate it.

SCHMELTZ: Thank you for having me.

MARQUARDT: And stay with us for the latest on this breaking news as we see protests breaking out or intensifying at campuses all across the country. We'll be right back.

[15:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Multiple college campuses in turmoil right now. You see live pictures there on the left, Columbia University in New York, where a deadline for students protesting the war in Gaza has passed. They now face suspension if identified by campus officials.

On the right, you're seeing the University of Texas at Austin, where state and local police have moved in on a rather actually small at this point contingent of protesters who tried to set up an encampment there on an area that is supposed to be used for commencement in not too long. But this is something that is affecting a number of universities. And in particular, we see active situations on these two right now.

MARQUARDT: Yes, and the university, at least in Columbia's case, really stepping things up and issuing an ultimatum, which now the students are defying. They held a press conference a little while ago saying that they are not going to refuse that encampment -- they're refusing to leave that encampment.

The university has said, we have identified a lot of you, and you will face the consequences, including suspension, if you don't leave.

Let's dig into this more with senior law enforcement analyst, Charles Ramsey who led the police forces of both Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. Chief, we are looking at these dueling protests in Austin and in New York. When you are law enforcement and you're looking at and you're dealing with these protesters who are perhaps not violent, but they are refusing to leave, that we have seen some detentions in the case of UT Austin. How is that decision made by law enforcement, whether to remove those protesters by force?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, it's up to the university. The police are only there at the invitation of the university. And I think we need to continue to emphasize that. What we see are the police taking action, but they're only there because the university president and the board has requested them to come and to dismantle the encampment or move people off their property or whatever.

So it makes it look as if it's just a police action, but reality is they're invited. Now, is it difficult? Yes, it's difficult.

You know, when I look at what's going on in Texas, for an example, the students are there with their arms locked, obviously refusing to leave. That just raises the possibility of someone getting injured because the police will arrest them, but you have to pull them apart. And that makes it even more difficult and dangerous, quite frankly, for everyone.

But police will continue to try to use a minimal amount of force, but some force will be used. Now, Colombia, we don't know yet what's going to happen, but eventually they're going to want to dismantle that particular encampment. I mean, personally, I think the last thing and the worst thing you could ever do is allow those encampments to take place to begin with. The longer they're there, the larger they grow, and the more difficult it becomes to move people out of those sites.

KEILAR: And that is clearly what we've heard officials at UT at Austin, they don't want. They don't want a large encampment like they see at Columbia University. I do want to let our viewers know, on the left side of your screen, you're now looking at the University of California at Los Angeles, a walkout there at UCLA today. So far, we just hear people chanting, but we're keeping an eye on that. It is obviously a rather large scene there.

Chief, I wonder the tension here. As you said, it's difficult. I mean, even when they are just sort of sitting in a sort of resistant posture, right, say at UT at Austin. But you have the situation last week where it was sort of a different kind of protest. It was on the move, as Ed Lavandera pointed out to us. But there were arrests, almost 60. A number of them were students.

And in the end, you had the county attorney drop charges, saying that they lacked probable cause.

[15:40:00]

And then in the end, school officials who were going to ban those students from campus ended up totally backpedaling, saying, well, they could come on for academic reasons, and then saying, actually, they can come on for -- on campus for any reason.

I mean, what is sort of the tension there of trying to clear out this encampment of this protest when there is obviously this internal debate going on about how to handle this?

RAMSEY: Well, I mean, you're going to do what you need to do based on the probable cause that you have at the time you make the arrests. Now, the thing that used to irritate me is when the local prosecutors then would turn around and dismiss all charges, or it would be the court that would do it. There's nothing much you can do about that.

And so you don't go into this being overly concerned about the prosecutors or the courts for that matter. As long as they're invited in, as long as they do things properly, they give the warnings, individuals being charged with trespassing, for an example, or whatever the charge might be, police will take whatever action they need to take. It does leave you vulnerable, though, for lawsuits.

And all of these large demonstrations wind up in civil court, because I guarantee you, you wind up getting sued for one reason or another as a result of the protests. And I have to say, first of all, there's nothing wrong with the protests. I mean, you know, that's a First Amendment right. And I certainly respect it.

I mean, I never would have had a chance to serve as police chief in Washington, D.C., or the commissioner in Philadelphia, had it not been for the civil rights protests of the 1950s and the 1960s. So I understand that.

But at the same time, other people have a right, in this case, we're talking about the universities, to go to class, to take their final exams, to graduate. My understanding is Southern County may have canceled the commencement exercises. I mean, you know, there are consequences to all this.

And I would hope that the protesters would try to find some balance where they could allow some of those things to occur on campus, but at the same time, have their voices heard in terms of their problem with the war in the Middle East. KEILAR: All right, Chief Ramsey, thank you so much for your insights there, as we are watching these protests on various campuses, and we're watching the law enforcement reaction to them. We're going to continue to monitor what we're seeing here. These are live pictures coming to us from UCLA, where there is a protest going on. There's an encampment there that we just saw as well. Students have been walking out.

Stay with CNN. We'll be right back.

[15:45:00]

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MARQUARDT: This is just in to CNN. The State Department is saying that five Israeli security units have committed what they call gross human rights violations. This is before the October 7th attacks by Hamas.

And now we're being told that the U.S. is still debating whether to restrict American aid to one of those units, which is an IDF battalion. Kylie Atwood has been reporting on this from the State Department. I want to bring her in.

Kylie, Secretary of State Antony Blinken had indicated recently that there might be restrictions placed on this IDF battalion, which would be a major move by the United States. But Israel has pushed back aggressively on that. So where do things stand right now?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Israel pushed back quite aggressively. And it appears that those conversations with regard to that one unit, that one IDF unit, are still ongoing.

So just kind of to broaden the scope here, there are five units, as you said, Alex, that have been found to have committed gross human rights abuses, five Israeli security units. And of those four of them, the Israelis have taken effective remediation. According to the deputy State Department spokesperson who spoke with us today, we don't know exactly what that remediation looks like. But presumably it's something where they were scolded, where there, you know, were Israeli officials who were held accountable for those actions that were taken, those human rights abuses.

Now, in the case of that one lasting IDF unit, the State Department remains in contact with the Israelis on that. And the Israelis have provided more information to the United States surrounding this incident, this IDF unit. Presumably that was provided information recently, though the State Department didn't say when it came, because the State Department is still reviewing that information to determine if this unit is still eligible to receive U.S. arms. At this moment in time, all of those units are still eligible, however, to receive U.S. arms -- Alex.

KEILAR: All right, Kylie Atwood, thank you so much for that report. We do appreciate it.

Today marks 205 days since Hamas brutally attacked and abducted innocent Israelis on October 7th. And over the weekend, Hamas released a video showing two of the more than 130 hostages who are still in captivity. For the first time since the kidnappings, families got to see American-Israeli Keith Siegel and Israeli Omri Miran. Both appeared to be under duress, as they called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to negotiate a deal to bring them home.

[15:50:00]

Joining me now from Tel Aviv is Omri's brother-in-law, Moshe Lavi. Moshe, thank you so much for talking with us today. First, I mentioned that deal, which I want to talk to you about. But first, these videos.

Obviously, your brother-in-law, he has no choice. This is filmed under duress. And yet I imagine seeing him and knowing the timeline that he is still alive is something that is very encouraging to you. What did you feel when you saw this?

MOSHE LAVI, BROTHER-IN-LAW TAKEN HOSTAGE BY HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7: Thank you so much for having me today. I think it was a mix of emotions for our entire family. I am with my family normally in Kibbutz Kramim, where they're displaced.

Right now, I'm in Tel Aviv because we just finished a press conference regarding the video. It was encouraging, and we were relieved to see that Omri is alive. It gave us hope and motivation to continue our advocacy work.

And we're focusing, of course, on the image, on seeing him, despite the fact he looks unwell compared to when we last saw him on October 7, despite the fact the smile is no longer there and the spark in his eyes is gone. We're focusing on the fact that he's alive and that we can bring him home alive.

But at the same time, it was very distressing to see the video. It was very distressing to see the images and, of course, feel that there's so much pressure. And as you described, duress is at, while being filmed by Hamas, in a blatant violation of yet another preamble of the international law.

KEILAR: There is this talk right now of a potential deal. The American Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, saying this is really up to Hamas to accept this, that this is a generous deal that is out there. Are you hopeful at all when you hear details of what is being discussed right now?

There have been so many times before where we have obviously hoped that there's an arrangement.

LAVI: You know, you described it so well. In the past almost seven months, nearly seven months since October 7, we were under the impression on so many occasions that a breakthrough is here, it's imminent, that a deal that is on the table is going to be accepted by Hamas. And yet every time we are waking up to yet another rejection by Hamas and their accomplices.

It's clear that now Egypt entered the discussions in a more urgent manner. I think it is a result of pressure that the Israeli government is threatening to have in Rafah. And so perhaps we'll have the breakthrough we're all hoping for.

We as families, as we said today in the press conference in Tel Aviv, the Siegel and the Miran family, on behalf of so many other families of hostages, are going to continue pushing our policymakers to make it a priority, a primary objective, as they promised us, to bring home the hostages, to uphold their social contract.

But we also recognize that Hamas as a terrorist organization that committed the atrocities of October 7 and countless other atrocities against Israelis and against Gazan Palestinians, is not negotiating in good faith.

But hopefully we'll have that breakthrough. And I think the next couple of days we will ask the answer to your question.

KEILAR: Yes, obviously that is the hope that so many are holding. Moshe, we've been covering for almost the entirety of our show today, almost all three hours, these protests that are going on at American college campuses. There are counter protests as well. But I wonder what your reaction is as you are seeing these protests sweep across colleges here in America.

LAVI: It's a painful subject to me because I went to college in the U.S., to a liberal arts college, Carlton College, and I just graduated in May from an MBA and MA program at Walter New Penn, where you also see demonstrations. I think, so it's a topic that is close to my heart and I experienced firsthand as a result of classmates being active.

I think the right to demonstrate and protest is sacred. People should be allowed to voice whatever opinion they have as long, but only as long as they don't do it in a hateful manner, only as long as they don't chant slogans of terrorist organizations like Hamas or waving flags of terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah.

[15:55:04]

I think there is a problem that the leadership of some of those demonstrations, such as in Columbia, chapters of SJP, have been taking a very radical opinion on the conflict. And their agenda and ideology is not for a two-state solution, is not for Palestinian self- determination, but for the eradication of the state of Israel. And I cannot accept that and I hope steps will be taken so we can have discourse that is respectful, that we can convince each other in a respectful manner of how we can solve this conflict in a peaceful way, just like in many other conflicts around the world.

And I grew up in Israel, on the Israel-Gaza border. I went through the Intifada. I grew up in Sderot to rocket attacks. I served in wars, in two wars, and experienced other wars as a civilian.

But at the same time, I still believe in a two-state solution and in a peaceful resolution to the conflict. But that cannot happen as long as radical elements like Hamas remain in power in Gaza, and as long as American university students, and I think these are the minority, I want to emphasize that, are emboldening Hamas. But we should not give that minority the importance they yearn to have, and we should amplify the peaceful voices that come from the Palestinians, that come from Israelis, and reject radicalism of all sorts.

KEILAR: Moshe, thank you so much for being with us and for talking to us about what your family is going through and obviously your hopes for what is ahead. We are hopeful for you as well. We hope that you get to see your brother-in-law soon. Moshe Lavi, thank you so much.

LAVI: Thank you.

KEILAR: And we'll be right back.

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KEILAR: All right, we are tracking protests at multiple universities across the country, including at UCLA, where you see there is an encampment, but there's also been a walkout of students. You see them congregating there.

They've also gone inside of Royce Hall just this afternoon, chanting, clapping, and holding signs. We'll continue to monitor what's happening there.

MARQUARDT: We haven't really seen a major police presence in LA, while in Austin, both state and local police have been corralling those protesters there. At least seven, we believe, have been detained as things intensify on the campus of UT Austin. We'll continue following these stories and so much more.

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.