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Protests at Columbia; Trump Trial Resumes in New York; Fed Meets on Interest Rates; Trump's Angry with Lawyers. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired April 30, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:03]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: We begin with breaking news this morning from Columbia University. We are live outside of the university where the protest movement has made a change that has ratcheted up tensions here on this campus. We are going into what will be the end of the second week of pro-Palestinian protest here on campus.

Now they have moved from an area outside to inside of this building just behind me. That is Hamilton Hall. Protesters broke in and are now occupying that building. They have the same demands that they have had since the beginning. And the university and students tried to come to some agreement yesterday, but they were told students, by the university, that they must leave by 2:00 p.m. or face consequences, which include things like suspension, if they were still on campus after 2:00 p.m. Monday.

Well, the student protesters decided to stay. And so now the university has to decide what they are going to do with a huge police presence that's outside of Columbia University, but not yet inside of Columbia University. You are seeing now this two-pronged protest. One inside of Hamilton Hall and the occupation there, one outside, where you have all of the tents still set up.

We should mention there are some very visible signs of this protest. And I will let you see. To my right there, our photographer will show you what you are seeing there hanging out of the window from Hamilton Hall. It says free Palestine in English and in Arabic. And then on the other side, on the back of Hamilton Hall, that shows into the campus, there is another sign that is getting a lot of attention, another banner, and that banner reads, intifada.

That banner upsetting some of the residents who live around here. We just heard from one of the neighbors of Columbia University, a Jewish woman. Her name is Shira Dicker (ph). She said seeing that makes her think of a bloody revolution, intifada, meaning, in Arabic, the shaking off or uprising. But for her it meant something very different. She was very, very concerned about where this is headed.

As for the students who were taking part in this, they have several demands. They are, one, asking the university to divest, among other things, from Israel, any moneys going in their investments to Israel, they want that stopped, and they also want a ceasefire. I was able earlier to speak with a student who is Jewish, who was part

of the pro-Palestinian protest, who has been on campus for a very long time. He came out to speak to us. And here is what he says. His name is Jared. And he wanted to make clear that they were able to have their Passover - it was the last day of Passover - they were able to have their seder (ph) inside of the pro-Palestinian encampment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JARED, JEWISH STUDENT PARTICIPATING IN COLUMBIA ENCAMPMENT: And what we're saying is that there's a genocide going on in Gaza being funded by our government that our university is profiting off of. And I think that if they can use some tactics to portray us all as some sort of hateful mob, then they can go on with ignoring our message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: All right, now I want to go to our Polo Sandoval. He is standing with students.

And this morning again the university has changed course. Students who are on campus and live on campus, and the faculty, are the only ones that can get in at this point. What are you seeing there? And is there confusion, Polo, for students who are lining up outside the gates wondering what is happening?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Sara, we've actually crossed the street from your location where you can not only see, but you may be able to hear, that increase in security measures that we saw put in place by Columbia officials overnight because of what you just showed our viewers.

We're standing right next to what has become the only public access point, or at least for those who are allowed on campus. And the system that Columbia University has right now is you have members of the Columbia community, they walk up to this card readers with their Columbia ID. They scan them. You hear the beep. You see the red light. You have to move aside. You are denied access because this system automatically recognizes that you are either not essential at this point or you are not a student who resides on campus.

I've been here already for quite some time. There are very few green lights that have gone off. Now, if there is anybody who feels that the system may be incorrect, there are supervisors here that will actually run people's names and can actually contact some of the department heads.

But just to give you a sense of the disruption, Sara, what we've seen all morning, aside from other journalists, is a long line of people that have gathered again at what is the main entrance right now, what is the only entrance for those people who are looking to access Columbia University. And the reality is, most of the people that you're seeing here in line will likely be denied access once they make their way to the front of the line.

[09:05:04] This is certainly going to speak to the disruptive factor of what we've seen. And it's also surreal to stand here in the shadow of the building that was occupied last night by protesters. So, what you have are members of the Columbia University. They are walking right underneath the banner that was unfurled during the overnight hours, right by the building that was occupied, and then basically trying their luck with their card to see if they will be allowed access.

Now, this is just a - this is just one of two security measures that were implemented by officials overnight. The other, they also issued a statement. They also sent out a letter to all the members of the community saying, if you do not have to be on campus today, simply stay away, because there's quite a bit of uncertainty right now, Sara, as we send things back to you. The question here is, will Columbia reach out to external law enforcement for any potential assistance?

SIDNER: That is a good point, Polo. We have seen a large presence of the NYPD outside of the university. And for a while there the university was saying that after police did come onto campus, taking people off, after that happened, that they were not going to have police coming back onto campus. But now the situation has changed. You have students who are occupying Hamilton Hall.

I know it's going to get really loud. I'm going to hush for one minute. OK. Typical New York scene there that has nothing to do with the protest.

But I do want to mention some of the history of Hamilton Hall here quickly. In '68 there were protesters who occupied this building over the Vietnam War. You had another occupation in '72 by students. You had an occupation in '85 by students here who took over Hamilton Hall to try and get the university to divest from South Africa, from apartheid South Africa. And their efforts worked. And the students here, for the pro-Palestinian movement, are hoping that their efforts will work. Now they are occupying this building, this big, large building that you see behind me, Hamilton Hall. There is a history of this.

We will also be taking you at some point to the University of Texas, in Austin, where there have been some serious protests going on and some clashes with police there and arrests.

But for now I'm going to send it back to you, Kate. These protests, Kate, happening all over college campuses across the country, from California to right here, the epicenter, in New York.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And, obviously, entering a new phase, if you want to call it that, with now the seizing of this academic building at Columbia. The big question is what happens today. Sara, you're right there hearing from the university, and we're going to continue to follow this throughout the morning and the day.

Also happening right now, we're going to show you a live look at the courthouse hallway behind - over there of - the courthouse hallway in lower Manhattan where soon you will see and possibly hear from Donald Trump before testimony resumes in his first criminal trial. And for the first time, one of his family members is joining him, at

least on the way to court. His son Eric was seen getting into the motorcade with him outside of Trump Tower just a few moments ago.

Also, there is new reporting today that Donald Trump is mad. Mad at his lead attorney. And wants his lead attorney to do more to - to be more aggressive against the witnesses, the jury, and the judge.

CNN's Brynn Gingras is live outside the courthouse for us.

Brynn, what are you learning about Donald Trump now complaining about it all really behind the scenes?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, listen, the lead attorney you're talking about, Kate, there, Todd Blanche. Listen, when I was in the courtroom, he did speak mostly to Todd Blanche while he's seated at that defendant's table. And what "The New York Times" is reporting is that he wants them, like you said, Kate, to be more aggressive in this first criminal trial. The quote is, "Mr. Trump wants him to attack witnesses, attack what the former president sees as a hostile jury pool and attack the judge."

Now, listen, our own Paula Reid also spoke to sources within Trump's camp who says, this is a stressful time. You know, the president is certainly - can get pretty mad at his attorneys. That's nothing new. But this is currently a stressful time, certainly as we're at just the beginning of this first criminal trial, which could have a huge impact on his political career and himself as we know. So, we'll see how that all plays out.

And what we are expecting now for the returning back to court for the third week, we will see the witness take the stand that is Gary Farro. He is the banker that worked with Michael Cohen to open those shell companies in order to facilitate the reimbursement to Stormy Daniels, the center of this hush money trial. We're going to see a lot of paperwork sort of entered into evidence so jurors could sort of see the paper trail about that lead, really the reason for these charges according to the prosecutions.

So, we are not really sure who's going to be after this witness or how much longer this witness will be on the stand. Of course, we don't get a heads-up on the order. The defense - or prosecution, rather, not giving the defense a heads up either because they don't want Trump to go on social media and say anything negative about members of the jury, or the witnesses.

[09:10:09]

And so that's why we are not getting that heads up.

But listen, you mentioned Eric Trump in court. That is a first. We have not seen any family member supporting the former president inside the courtroom. We're actually seeing a little bit more support outside the courtroom as well. There's actually a motorcade of Trump supporters, about three or four cars that have been circling this courthouse. There's quite a bit more Trump supporters outside in the penned area for where protestors are allowed to be. So, certainly going into this third week, it does appear that the former president has a little bit more support on his side.

BOLDUAN: You know that was something that the former president was complaining about, that there weren't more supporters out there in previous weeks.

GINGRAS: Yes.

BOLDUAN: It's good to see you, Brynn. We'll be getting back to you. All the action about to be starting back up in court there.

Also this, will the Federal Reserve finally make the move to start cutting interest rates, or are we look at rates holding steady for a sixth time in a row as the Fed kicks off its key policy meeting today?

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:16:05]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Big economic moment today. The Federal Reserve kicks off a highly anticipated two day meeting.

CNN's Matt Egan is with us now.

You know, it's interesting, I don't really think anyone's asking, oh, is the Fed going to cut interest rates this time.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: That's right, John. I mean if you're in the market for a mortgage or a car loan, you're going to be disappointed because the Fed is widely expected to keep interest rates on hold for the six meeting in a row.

Look at this, just a 3 percent chance of a rate cut tomorrow. So, it would be shocking if they did anything tomorrow. Very low chances at the next meeting in June. Even if you go out to September, the last meeting before the election, its just 60/40 in favor of a rate cut. The problem, of course, is inflation. Remember, the Fed spiked interest rates to the highest levels in more than two decades to try to get inflation under control.

The good news is that because of all of this tough medicine from the Fed, you can see all of these rate cuts starting two years ago and now on hold. Because of this tough medicine, inflation has calmed down. Prices are no longer skyrocketing, but they're going up faster than they're supposed to. And so the Fed really can't lower interest rates right now because they could actually make the problem worse.

Now, hopefully inflation cools off and the Fed can start to lower interest rates. That would be good news for consumers. Rate cuts, whenever they come, will help people when it comes to car loans, trying to pay off credit card debt, student debt and, of course, mortgages. That's the big one. We've seen mortgage rates move above 7 percent. That's just exacerbating the affordability problem for homebuyers, right, because they're dealing with high home prices and very high mortgage rates.

Powell, tomorrow, is going to face a lot of tough questions about when the Fed could start to lower interest rates. Of course, a lot of that is up to stubborn inflation. So, we've got to pay attention really carefully because there's big implications here for the economy, the market, and even the election, John.

BERMAN: Yes. I think people will be paying attention to what he says about the future -

EGAN: Yes.

BERMAN: More than the right now.

EGAN: Absolutely.

BERMAN: That seems fairly certain.

Matt Egan, thanks so much.

EGAN: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, so you are looking at live pictures once again inside the New York City courthouse where Donald Trump is about to start another week on trial. Will the judge rule on Trump's alleged gag order violations today? That's one of many big questions about what's about to play out as this week in court kicks off.

Stay with us. We have CNN's special live coverage about to begin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:22:31]

BOLDUAN: Moments from now, Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial is set to resume. And there's also new reporting that the former president is mad at his legal team. Trump has reportedly been venting about the man he hired to defend him in this trial. Mad that he's not being aggressive enough against the judge, the jury even and the witnesses.

CNN's Kristen Holmes has much more on this. She's joining us.

And, Kristen, Donald Trump is also going to be holding his first day off trial duty campaign events starting in Wisconsin tomorrow. What are you hearing about this?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so quickly first just to talk about Todd Blanche and this kind of quote/unquote rift between them. I have heard from senior advisers who talk about the fact that, yes, Donald Trump is routinely complaining about his lawyers. But no one around him that I've spoken to believes this is more serious than just that, the fact that he is frustrated, that he is in court, and obviously going to take it out on the people who are fighting this battle for him. That is how Donald Trump works. Not an easy task being his lawyer.

Now, coming to the campaign part of this. We just saw Donald Trump go to the cameras. This is the first time on Wednesday that he will actually be on the campaign trail. He did try to go to North Carolina last Saturday. It was canceled because of weather. But other than that, he has done almost nothing in his off days, played golf one Wednesday. Tomorrow will be the first time he is hitting these battleground states.

Now, they are saying, they being his advisers, his team, that this is an opportunity for him to really test the water there, to see how this trial is playing out in the middle of the country. And, Kate, we really need to stress here, these are two states that are going to be critical in the fall. Both Biden and Trump are going to be doubling down in Michigan and Wisconsin. States that Donald Trump carried in 2016 and then lost in 2020.

Now, one thing I do want to point attention to, because this is something that is circulating in Trump's orbit right now, is this lengthy interview with "Time" Magazine that Trump did that was released today. Now, he talks about a number of issues, things we've heard him talk about before. He talks about Israel. He talks about abortion being left to the states.

But there is one noted passage that I want to bring up, and that was about political violence. This interview was done in two separate sittings. In the first one he was asked about political violence in relation to the November election. He said he wasn't worried about it. In the second phone conversation he was asked about it again, and this is what he said. He essentially said he wasn't worried about it because they were going to win. But then he adds this, "if we don't win, you know, it depends. It always depends on the fairness of the election."

[09:25:02]

And I can tell you right now that people close to Donald Trump are not going to like that answer because they want him to say there is not going to be any political violence, instead of this kind of vague answer here where he is alluding to potential violence if he doesn't win the election, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Wow. Kristen, great to see you. Thank you so much.

More details of that interview coming out as we are also waiting for Donald Trump to head back into court. Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, with us now, CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson and Jennifer Rodgers.

Donald Trump just entered the courtroom and it is notable his attorney, Todd Blanche, was standing right next to him when Trump did his daily rant before heading in to court today. Maybe trying to show that there is unity between Trump and his attorney, even as this "New York Times" report says he's angry at how the lawyer has been conducting himself. Kristen, in the CNN reporting, well, it's just the normal course of business. You know, Trump gets angry. He's venting. I don't know how reassuring that is to Todd Blanche, his defense attorney, who's putting his career on the line to defend him.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, John, problematic to be sure. Good morning. The reality is, is he's seemingly an impossible client. Clients get upset, right? It's a high-pressured situation. None more high pressured than this. As attorneys, though, right, you hired a person who is aware of the court structure, who can make arguments that would carry the day. And it's very difficult, right, from a defense perspective, when you're defending someone, not that clients shouldn't be involved in strategy, they should be, but this is sort of our domain. And so I think that Mr. Trump may have a very difficult time not controlling the essence of what happens in court.

And I do think, you know, Todd Blanche, say what you want, I think he's a skilled practitioner. Not everyone does things the same. He should allow him to do his job and allow the jury to decide whatever they do ultimately when the case is over. So, but not unusual for a client to have some misgivings about how things are proceeding.

BOLDUAN: And, Jennifer, some of the reporting is, is that Trump wants Todd Blanche to attack witnesses, attack what the former president sees as a hostile jury pool and attack the judge. If you're sitting at the prosecutor's table, how are you feeling about all this?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, well, I think they would love that, actually, because that's where you lose credibility. I mean defense lawyers, as Joey notes, you often pick small things that don't really matter to give up, right? You say, listen, we'll give you this one because you're fighting the bigger battles. And someone who's a scorched earth type of litigant, like Trump, has always been, refuses to concede or admit anything his entire life, that doesn't play very well in the courtroom as we have seen through these civil cases and now in this criminal case.

BERMAN: You know, it is interesting, Eric Trump showed up today. And this is the first time Trump has had a family member.

BOLDUAN: I think so.

BERMAN: I believe this entire case from jury selection to now, we're three weeks in. I'm curious, Joey, if you think this is deliberate, what the defense team gets out of it, because we noted Trump walked into court on Friday noting that it was Melania Trump's birthday and he wishes he could be with her. And we noted, I think correctly, that no family member has been with Trump during his trial. Any of them could be there this whole time.

JACKSON: Yes, I think, look, everything matters in a courtroom, right? Now, there's the legal and the practical. From a legal perspective, the judge tells the jury in instructions, you evaluate the case predicated upon the evidence you here and that's it. I don't care about your emotional state or anything else. What did the evidence show?

At the same time, when you're speaking to your client, right, not that he needs to know how to dress and what to do, but the family support is very important. Having people there who will vouch for you, who are family members closest to you, very important. And so that's an optic and a detail that I do think the defense, not lost upon them potentially said, hey, get over here, sit into - in this courtroom.

BOLDUAN: One thing that's been lingering for over a week now is when is the -- when - when is the president - when is the judge going to rule on the former president's alleged violations? Multiple - near a dozen violations of the gag order.

Do you think that - I mean we've stopped guessing when he's going to do it, but what happens if the judge doesn't rule on the first batch before he has a hearing on the second batch?

RODGERS: Well, nothing. I mean the - he needs to have a hearing before he rules so he can just stack them up. I mean, I'm starting to wonder whether the judge thinks it's more effective to have them hanging out there than it is to go ahead and rule on them, slap him on the wrist with $1,000 per violation and move on. He may think it's better - I mean he has been quieter, Trump, then he was at the outset of this. So, maybe the judge thinks this is the way to keep him quiet, to just have them keep racking them up, holding the hearings, and kind of have it hanging over his head.

BOLDUAN: That's a good point.

BERMAN: So, document day. I mean that's where we are right now to get some documents on the record. If you are the prosecution, how many days - how long can you stick with this I don't want to say boring but I want to say -

BOLDUAN: In the weeds.

BERMAN: Yes, in the weeds stuff before you see another dramatic witness?

JACKSON: So what happens, John, Kate, is you have to prove your case, right? The prosecutors have to go through these monotonous tasks sometimes, right, before you get - well, you got some juicy in the beginning, right, primacy they call it at the beginning, right, recency.

[09:30:04]

And so the reality is, is that you have to introduce documents. This is a document laden case.