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Soon: Michael Cohen, Trump's Former Fixer And Lawyer, Takes The Stand; U.S. Warns Against Major Military Ground Operation In Rafah; New Polling Shows Trump Ahead Of Biden In Five Key States. Aired 7:30- 8a ET

Aired May 13, 2024 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Oh, for sure. And not only that but what did he say? What did you say? What did Allen Weisselberg say? Really, everything that will have happened in that meeting and on those phone calls and every time they talked about it will be elicited.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, Jen just brought up Allen Weisselberg. You did also. The judge talked about Allen Weisselberg --

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah.

BERMAN: -- at the end of the day on Friday. He's not testifying, as far as we know, in this case. He's this missing link -- this specter looming out over this case who presumably is the one who set up the financial arrangement. His handwriting is on the payment plan.

What is the jury supposed to think about this guy who is not here?

JACKSON: So, obviously, you want the jury to have all the information before it. The judge had even suggested bringing him in -- that is the CFO, chief financial officer, Mr. Weisselberg -- so that you can speak to him and say hey, are you going to plead the fifth -- outside the presence of the jury, of course, right?

Because then you're going to have the argument from the defense, which is look, Allen Weisselberg is not here. Why? They had -- they could have called him to establish the case. Did they not want to call him because he could corroborate the liar, Michael Cohen?

So it's going to be very interesting to note, and I think the defense will ask for -- whether it's a missing witness charge or an uncalled witness charge, et cetera, it's going to be the subject of some dispute.

Not to get to inside baseball but there's also a severance agreement that he signed before leaving the Trump Organization. Prosecutors arguing that agreement says he can't disparage. So we can't call him in light of this agreement. The defense saying we don't want that agreement admitted to explain anything. So again, very technical. But at the end of the day, John, to your point, jurors want to hear and see everything, and to the extent you don't give it to them they start to wonder. Is that doubt? Is that doubt? So, very important.

BERMAN: How long do you think the prosecution will take with Michael Cohen? I mean, I'm very interested in the mechanics of how today will go. I think we're all anticipating the cross, which we know will be combative and potentially combustible. But before that, how is it going to go?

RODGERS: They're going to take their time as well, as what Joey said earlier. Because first of all, Michael Cohen takes them soup to nuts, right? He knows the whole entire thing and they'll walk him through all of it.

I also think that you don't want to tender him close to the end of the day -- tender, meaning hand him over for cross. So I think that he likely will go this entire day and at least a little bit of tomorrow so that they hand him over not right before the jurors go and think about it overnight. But he's going to take a long time.

You know, he knew all of this -- everything from the first meeting through the reimbursement scheme. All of the conversations with Trump. So it's going to be --

BERMAN: Do you want the biography stuff? Do you want how did you meet Donald Trump? What was it like when you worked for him? What was your job there? Sort of the background biographical stuff. Do you need that?

RODGERS: Yes. You always do that with an important witness, especially. But, you know, I mean, he worked for him for years and years and years. But I think they'll at least set up this notion of him being the fixer and kind of knowing where all the bodies are buried. They won't elicit that sort of thing but that relationship of trust they will definitely want to get out.

BERMAN: You know, I've got let you both go right now. But, Joey, if there are objections from the defense today, what will they be on? Is this going to be the type of thing where we're hearing tons of objections like the Stormy Daniels testimony?

JACKSON: So, we potentially could. I think that certainly, it's anticipated what he's going to say, right, and objections generally to hearsay. Him testifying about what someone else said at some other time and some other place to corroborate what he's saying.

But I think what they'll do is they'll allow him to speak and then they'll get up and say by the way, you lied to Congress, didn't you? By the way, you hate the president. Is that right? By the way, wasn't that you on TikTok wearing a 'You were in jail shirt' and it was Donald Trump? And by the way, you wanted to work in the White House and weren't allowed to.

So no matter what the objections are, the defense is waiting for their turn so they could skewer him. And I think that's large measure not only with respect to this case but what their boss, Donald Trump, wants to see. Just like he wanted to see Stormy Daniels humiliated, he wants to see Michael Cohen humiliated, and I think that's what the defense will attempt to do.

BERMAN: Jennifer Rodgers, Joey Jackson, thanks to both of you -- Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. This morning, U.S. warnings growing louder against a potential major ground invasion of Rafah by Israel. Despite the pressure from the Biden administration, Israel seems to be pressing ahead. Secretary of State Antony Blinken says Israel going headlong into Rafah could have dire consequences for civilians there.

The U.N. estimating around 360,000 people have fled Rafah since last week. That includes 60,000 people yesterday alone. And the U.N. says there's really nowhere safe to go.

CNN's Alex Marquardt joins me now. Alex, this is the biggest flashpoint that we've seen from -- between the Biden administration and Israel since the war began. What are U.S. officials saying now as you're seeing more movement into Rafah.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Sara.

Biden administration officials have spent the past few days fighting back against this argument that they're cutting off Israel. That they're leaving Israel high and dry to defend themselves.

What we're hearing from top Biden administration officials is that this is firmly about Rafah. You have more than one million people who have gone to Rafah to seek refuge. Many of them had been told to go to Rafah to get away from the fighting farther north. And now they're being told to move elsewhere. As you just mentioned, hundreds of thousands of people on the move going to places where there really is no support.

[07:35:05]

And so what you're seeing is the Biden administration saying we have asked time and time again for a plan to show that you plan to keep these civilians safe, and they say they have not yet heard that from Israel.

Here's a little bit of what Sec. Blinken had to say on Sunday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We believe two things. One, you have to have a clear, credible plan to protect civilians, which we haven't seen. Second, we also need to see a plan for what happens after this conflict in Gaza open -- is over, and we still haven't seen that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Sara, Israel argues they need to go into Rafah to dismantle four remaining Hamas battalions. But what American officials are arguing is that the operation that they have planned actually wouldn't work. U.S. officials believe that Hamas militants would simply melt into the civilian population. They also point out the fact that in other areas of Gaza -- northern parts of Gaza where Hamas is -- has allegedly been cleared from -- that they're actually coming back.

So really interesting to hear there, Sec. Blinken, focusing on what comes later on. They're saying what would be more effective is to focus on what comes after this war to prevent Hamas from coming back and filling that vacuum. That the emphasis really now needs to be on figuring out who will rule Gaza -- who will govern Gaza after this war. And Sec. Blinken saying that they're not getting enough engagement from Israel on that, Sara.

SIDNER: At the same time, you had this report to Congress. The administration saying it is reasonable to assess that Israel violated international law using U.S. weapons, but -- and a big but here -- they found that there was insufficient information to draw a firm conclusion. Why not?

MARQUARDT: Well, this report did not go far enough for a lot of critics of Israel who do believe that Israel has crossed these lines and violated international humanitarian law. Essentially, this report from the Secretary of State says that this is a very complex environment. It's very difficult to determine what exactly has been done.

So the farthest that they have been able to go is to reasonably conclude, as you say, that there have been instances in which Israel has violated international humanitarian law. But without people on the ground -- investigators on the ground, it is very difficult to make more specific determinations.

At the same time, Blinken has said that Israel has very strict standards for keeping civilians safe that they have not always followed. They could do more to try to keep civilians safe.

And very notably, he did say that Israel has killed more civilians than Hamas militants. We'll often talk about the estimates -- the numbers of people who have been killed. Blinken making it clear that he believes Israel has, indeed, killed more civilians than Hamas militants.

But this did not go far enough for a lot of people, including Sen. Van Hollen, Democrat from Maryland, who said that this report ducks the critical questions at hand and woefully falls short of its mandate.

So there's still a lot of remaining questions that this report did not answer, Sara.

SIDNER: All right, Alex Marquardt. Thank you so much for your reporting this morning -- Kate. KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's talk more about all of this. Joining us now is a former national security adviser under Donald Trump and former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton. Ambassador, thanks for coming in.

Taking all of this in the broad sense -- it started with President Biden's warning to Israel against that major, major invasion -- a major invasion in Rafah. And you called that warning unprecedented. But along with that warning, Biden said this. "We're not walking away from Israel's security. We're walking away from Israel's ability to wage war in those areas."

Do you see a distinction there?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER UNDER DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: There is no distinction. The Biden administration position is that Israel is entitled to some right of self-defense but not enough to achieve the objective of eliminating Hamas.

It is permissible to engage in urban combat. The United States has done it repeatedly in our history, most recently in places like Fallujah and Mosul in Iraq. Studies of those two cities -- after- action reports by our military indicates the casualty ratio of civilians to terrorists was roughly five to one. The estimates of casualties civilian to Hamas in the Gaza conflict has been two to one, meaning Israel's performance is considerably more conservative than the American performance.

If Israel is not permitted to destroy Hamas, Hamas will come back, as it already is on north Gaza, which the United States pressed Israel to withdraw its forces from. So I think the Biden administration assessment here is objectively pro-Hamas.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. I mean, you mentioned Fallujah and Mosul. Democratic Sen. Chris Murphy, this weekend, who supports the direction and move that Biden has made here -- he makes a connection to Iraq and Afghanistan in this decision. And he said -- and the argument he made is that Joe Biden is learning from this mistakes of Iraq and Afghanistan. That you can't eliminate a terrorist group and ideology by military force alone.

[07:40:20]

BOLTON: I don't agree with that.

Look at what happened in Germany. How is Nazism doing in Germany? As an ideology, it's been effectively eliminated. There are not terrorist activities.

The terrorists' warfare is the cruelest and most barbaric. And, in fact, the civilian population of Gaza will never achieve security while Hamas lives. It's like Stalin. As long as the threat of Hamas coming back is there, I think it will intimidate the population.

You can -- there are some circumstances where it's absolutely critical to do everything possible to eliminate the threat. That's what Israel is trying to do.

BOLDUAN: Let me ask you -- we played a little bit from what we heard from the Secretary of State this weekend, but he also suggested this weekend that the bigger concern is that a major operation in Rafah -- that it just won't work to this point that we're discussing.

Let me play this for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLINKEN: We're seeing parts of Gaza that Israel has cleared of Hamas where Hamas is coming back --

MARGARET BRENNAN, MODERATOR, CBS "FACE THE NATION": Right.

BLINKEN: -- including in the north. Including in Khan Yunis. As we look at Rafah, they may go in and have some initial success but potentially, at an incredibly high cost to civilians, but one that is not durable. One that's not sustainable.

BRENNAN: Yeah.

BLINKEN: And they will be left holding the bag on an enduring insurgency because a lot of armed Hamas will be left --

BRENNAN: Um-hum.

BLINKEN: -- no matter what they do in Rafah. Or if they -- if they leave and get out of Gaza, as we believe they need to do, then you're going to have a vacuum and a vacuum that's likely to be filled by chaos, by anarchy, and ultimately, by Hamas again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And you mentioned the flareup that we're seeing the north of Gaza right now.

Are you concerned about a vacuum being created and left behind there?

BOLTON: Well, that's an argument that proves too much. It's the argument that if you destroy Hamas there might be chaos. Well, if you don't destroy Hamas there will be chaos, too, and terrorism against Israel.

I don't think Israel is required to have a master plan for Gaza after the combat anymore than the United States had a master plan during World War II. What to do with Germany. What to do with Japan.

Israel is not responsible for Gaza. It withdrew from Gaza 15 years ago. It's responsible -- its government, as is our government, is responsible for the self-defense of its own people. And there's plenty of time to worry about what comes next in Gaza after Hamas is destroyed. If you don't believe that point then you're virtually guaranteeing that Hamas will reemerge, meaning we will be right back where we are now. This administration is showing weakness by its public split with

Israel. You can argue about what the split is over. But I'll tell you, in Moscow and Beijing, what they see more than anything else is not civilian casualties in Gaza. They see American weakness.

If I were the Ukraine, if I were Taiwan, I'd be saying good God, this administration won't stand by one of America's most important and closest allies in the world. What are they -- what are they going to do when we really get in trouble?

BOLDUAN: Ambassador John Bolton, thanks for coming in -- John.

BERMAN: All right. Today, a scheduled explosion in Baltimore to clear the bridge that collapsed after being hit by a ship. What this means for the ship's crew still on board.

And then despite bad weather, missing landing gear, and 20 pelicans downwind, one pilot makes a stunning landing with passengers and birds left unscathed.

Oh! But first, this morning, an Oregon businessman sharing warmth and dignity. For every blanket Bob Dalton sells, another goes to a homeless shelter for free. Every day this week, we're bringing you stories of people who are champions for change and are quietly reshaping the world. This is Bob Dalton's story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB DALTON, FOUNDER AND CEO, SACKCLOTH AND ASHES: What would you do if you ended up having a family experience homelessness? That was the question that I really was wrestling with when my mom ended up on the streets. And when I tried to help her and reach out to her, she kept saying I'm on my own journey. With all of the emotion and all of the frustration that I was working through it inspired me to do something.

[07:45:00]

I started my company, Sackcloth & Ashes, with the goal of for every blanket that we sell, we'll donate a blanket to your local homeless shelter.

These blankets over there -- these are all boxed up blankets -- donation blankets that are going to be going out to shelters this week. So far, almost half a million has been designated to homeless shelters around the United States.

Marcus, it's good to see you again.

We wanted to localize the one-for-one model to encourage small businesses to get involved as well. I wanted to give people an opportunity to make a difference down the street from where they live.

MARCUS HARVEY, OWNER, PORTLAND GEAR: It's really awesome to know that every time someone comes in and purchases a blanket that one gets donated to a local shelter, which happens to be tonight here at Night Strike in downtown Portland under the Burnside Bridge. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people that come in here -- they don't have --

you know, some of them don't have anything. And these blankets -- they help save lives. They really do.

DALTON: There was a time where I just drove by people on the street and whispered under my breath, go get a job. But now, there's an actual reality where I see people with dignity now. And that's what my mom inspired in my life.

PATTY ZINK, BOB DALTON'S MOTHER: Now when I do blanket drops, every once in a while, my mom comes and joins me. She's gone through an entire recovery from coming off the streets, getting sober, and now she's helping people in a detox facility on their recovery journeys.

You know, you learn to start over again and live life.

DALTON: And she's living.

ZINK: I think the most important thing is to see that a homeless person or a person in struggle is somebody's mother or uncle, or father, or son, or brother. These problems can happen to any of us. To step out of their comfort zone and ask for help is hard.

DALTON: One of the things that I realized as I started doing blanket drops around the United States was that they're connecting me to people doing amazing work. That I get to go and see firsthand what they're doing to help the homeless problem. So is started asking myself the question how can we use our brand -- our platform to highlight people and organizations that are doing good work in their communities?

So all of our blankets come in these boxes, "Make A Local Impact." And we want our packaging to encourage people to take action in their community, so they can scan this QR code and find ways to get involved and they can also fill this box up with items and donate to their local shelter.

A lot of people want to make a difference but they don't know where to start. And so we created loveyourcity.org for people to search your city, find organizations, and have the ability to donate financially. And you can also fill out a volunteer form and get involved.

If we all come together and do a small part, we're going to make a huge impact.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: And be sure to tune in Saturday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern for the "CHAMPIONS FOR CHANGE" one-hour special right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:52:24]

BOLDUAN: Overnight, a mechanical failure forced a pilot to land a small plane without its landing gear. This is video coming out of Australia today. The pilot circled the airport for hours to burn off fuel before pulling off a wheels-up landing. After the plane skidded along the tarmac -- you see there -- and stopped, you could hear people watching breaking into applause. The pilot and two passengers on board were not injured in the landing, thank goodness.

At least 37 people are dead after flash flooding and what's called cold lava flowed down a volcano on the Indonesian island Sumatra. Just look at the video coming in. Cold lava is a mixture of volcanic material and rocks that flow down a volcano's slope during wet weather. It all happened near Mount Marapi and one of the -- which is one of the country's most active volcanoes. The water and cold lava swept people away, buried buildings in feet of debris. And officials say there are also reports of injuries.

Actor Steve Buscemi is the latest victim of random violence in New York City after someone walked up to him and punched him in the face out of the blue. NYPD says that it happened last week in Midtown Manhattan. The suspect has not been caught. Police released pictures of the person and are asking for the public's help in locating him. Buscemi was treated for bruising, swelling, and bleeding. His publicist, though, says he is OK -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right.

New polling shows President Biden trailing Donald Trump in five of six key battleground states. There are the numbers there. Trump leads in Pennsylvania, Arizona, Michigan, Georgia, and Nevada among registered U.S. voters. Biden is ahead in just one battleground state -- the state of Wisconsin.

The president won all six of those states back in 2020 you'll remember, but right now, he's struggling to win support among young, non-white voters. Biden also facing mounting criticism from both sides of the aisle on Capitol Hill after he told our Erin Burnett that he would withhold some weapons shipments to Israel to try to get them not to go in a full-scale war into Rafah.

But Biden has some heavy hitters coming out to support him. Former President Barack Obama and Hollywood stars Julia Roberts and George Clooney are set to headline a fundraiser in L.A. for Biden next month.

A lot to discuss now with our panel. I'm joined by former Republican congressman and executive director of the Aspen Institute Congressional Program, Charlie Dent. And Democratic strategist and co- founder of Third Way, Matt Bennett. Thank you, gentlemen, for being here this morning.

[07:55:00]

I want to start with the swing states but where Trump was not. He did not go to the swing states. He went to the state of New Jersey this weekend talking to a large crowd there. And he made an attack that was a bit more unusual than we've ever seen. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They don't want to report that. The mental institution population is down because they're taking people from insane asylums and from mental institutions. You know what the difference is, right? An insane asylum is a mental institution on steroids. "The Silence of the Lambs." Has anyone ever seen "The Silence of the Lambs?" The late, great Hannibal Lecter was a wonderful man. He oftentimes would have a friend for dinner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Wow. If President Biden, Charlie, said the same thing, what would your fellow Republicans be saying about him this morning?

CHARLIE DENT, (R) FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ASPEN INSTITUTE CONGRESSIONAL PROGRAM (via Webex by Cisco): He's senile, mentally unfit. More reasons why he shouldn't be President of the United States. It's -- I know there's a double standard here. I mean, it's clearly really a crazy comment that Trump just made there. I'm not sure it was coherent in any way, shape, or form.

I happened to be about 10 miles from there on Saturday, so I saw the traffic. But he had a huge crowd.

But bottom line is Trump just seems to be judged differently than any other politician in my memory or my lifetime, so it's really bizarre.

SIDNER: You know, we are in such -- as you -- as you mentioned, Mr. Dent, we are in such unchartered territory during this campaign season.

Matt, judging from polling though, when you look at the latest polling that's come out among the swing states, does Donald Trump need to spend much time in the swing states judging from what we're seeing? He hasn't been spending a lot of time there because, of course, he's in trial during the week.

Are we just in a different time now?

MATT BENNETT, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT AOF PUBLIC AFFAIRS AND CO- FOUNDER, THIRD WAY: Well, I certainly hope he doesn't spend time in the swing states. That would be great for Joe Biden.

Look, I think the polling now -- it's like trying to predict the weather in November. In an election this close it just doesn't tell you much when you've got a lot of these things that are either within or very close to the margin of error. It's going to be a really close election.

And I think the clip you just showed is emblematic of some of the things that Joe Biden has to do. He has to remind voters what they hated about Donald Trump. And one of the things they hated is that he's a chaos agent. He just spews out ridiculous random things all the time. Sometimes it's funny and ridiculous and sometimes it really matters, like during the COVID crisis when he was telling people to inject themselves with bleach. So one of the tasks for Biden over the next five months is to remind

people of what they really didn't like about the Trump years because they're kind of looking at Trump through rose-colored glasses right now.

SIDNER: All right, Matt, let me -- let me ask you about Biden and his campaign. And he's doing this star-studded fundraiser we learned in Los Angeles with big-name headliners -- George Clooney, Julia Roberts, former President Obama.

I know it brings in a lot of cash usually, but can these sort of gatherings backfire with voters who are worried about their grocery bill?

BENNETT: Well, look, both sides do these glittery fundraisers. Trump just did one with oil executives and told them that he would cut their taxes and make them even richer and get rid of climate laws that Biden has passed.

So you take a risk on either side if you're going to do fundraisers with very wealthy, very high-profile people. But cash is what fuels campaigns.

I do think, though, that the cash advantage that Biden has right now, in the end, probably won't be decisive but it does show that the party is beginning to coalesce behind the president, and I think that's very important.

SIDNER: Mr. Dent, I want to go to foreign policy now. There is fallout from Biden's announcement to our Erin Burnett that his administration will withhold bombs from Israel if Israel does a full- scale invasion of Rafah. He is getting flack now from both sides of the aisle, Republicans and some Democrats. A group of 26 Democrats now have sent a letter to Biden saying they're deeply concerned about the message the administration is sending to Hamas and other Iranian- backed terror proxies by withholding these weapons shipments to Israel.

I want you to listen to what Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham said and Democratic Sen. Chris Murphy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Why is it ok for American to not -- to drop two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end their existential threat war? Why was it OK for us to do that?

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS": Well, again --

GRAHAM: I thought it was OK. To Israel --

WELKER: Senator?

GRAHAM: -- to whatever you have to do to survive as a Jewish state.

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): When you are being a good leader you are often upsetting people on the right and the left. And so, President Biden advertised himself when he ran for office as someone who would often play it down the middle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: I'm curious, Charlie, what you thought both of Graham's comments and of Sen. Murphy's comments there.

DENT: Well, my immediate reaction is that Joe Biden has put himself in this situation where, on the one hand, he supports Israel's right to respond to the horrific attacks by Hamas from October 7. On the one -- he supports that. On the other hand, he is trying to restrain Israel's response to protect Gaza citizens.