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Haley Meets with Donors; Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR) is Interviewed about Haley, Biden and Israel; Biden Asserts Executive Privilege; Annette Rubin's Story in Champions for Change; Ground Operation in Rafah; Rep. Seth Moulton (D-MA) is Interviewed about Israel's War. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired May 16, 2024 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Described it as an investor conference.

With us now, CNN's Daniel Strauss.

Daniel, what are you learning about what she said?

DANIEL STRAUSS, CNN REPORTER: I mean specifically she's not being very committal at this moment. She's not casting down or directly addressing her political future, allowing her supporters at this donor event to speculate and really encourage her about running again in the future or possibly having some other prominent role in government.

At the same time, though, she is not - she's not very clearly saying anything she intends to do beyond giving a speech at the Hudson Institute in the coming days.

BERMAN: Is she saying anything about whether her supporters should vote for Donald Trump, Daniel?

STRAUSS: No. And I think that itself is a tell because we're seeing, in these Republican primaries, primary after primary that a significant chunk of Republican voters are backing Haley, even though she's not out of the race. And that's pretty unusual. In - in situation - in past presidential campaigns, when there is a presumptive Republican nominee, usually the runner up encourages them to vote for that nominee. But that is not what we're seeing here. So, silence itself is telling.

BERMAN: All right, continued silence from Nikki Haley on what she wants to see her supporters do.

Daniel Strauss, thank you very much for that.

Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us right now is Republican Senator Tom Cotton from Arkansas.

Senator, it's great to have you here. It's been a minute. I really appreciate your time. Let's start with where John just left off.

SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Clearly Donald Trump is the presumptive nominee. We're not talking about that, of course. But the fact that Haley's polled in double-digit vote shares, 15, 20 percent in some places, in 15 states since she dropped out, what do you think Republican voters are saying with that?

COTTON: Kate, I don't think there's much we can take from that. President Trump has been the presumptive nominee for months now. He's not campaigning in these states. I think the bigger issue is, if you look at polling for the general election that Joe Biden is hemorrhaging support among traditional Democratic constituencies, like Latino voters, black voters, and young voters. That's one reason why Donald Trump has such a large lead, in addition to Joe Biden's failed and week presidency. That's why you're going to see a big Donald Trump and Republican victory in November.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk about something that's happening - it relates to the election, it's an issue in the election, and it's something that's happening now, and you're involved, and the House is going to be voting this week and you've introduced a companion bill in the Senate, on a measure that seeks to end Biden's flexibility, if you will, on delivering weapons to Israel. The White House issued a veto threat. But congressional sources tell us that the White House, at the same time, is moving forward with a $1 billion arms package for Israel, which would include tactical vehicles, tank ammunition and more.

Do you - do you want to be seen as setting a precedent of tying any president's hands when it comes to the foreign policy of the United States?

COTTON: No, Kate, the precedent that we shouldn't said is Joe Biden imposing a de facto arms embargo on Israel. He's denying them the munitions that they need in the middle of a war of survival against Hamas, which committed the worst atrocity against Jews since World War II.

And the announcement that President Biden made this week, that he's going to deliver a billion dollars of arms, is just a smokescreen for that de facto arms embargo, because those weapons and those munitions won't arrive for months or even years. It's all designed to give cover to Democrats who recognize that Joe Biden is catering to the small, pro-Hamas wing in his party against the large pro-Israel majority of the American people.

In contrast, Donald Trump has said he would back Israel to the hilt, which is what we should be doing so Israel can win this war more quickly and destroy Hamas. That's what we should have been doing all along. But President Biden's tied himself in pretzels for the last seven months, once again displaying weakness because he is worried about this small, but outsized vocal pro-Hamas minority in his own party. BOLDUAN: I've heard you say de facto arms embargo in recent days as well, but it's not a de facto arms embargo. It's not - it's not that in reality. It - they sent $26 billion over in that foreign aid package. It's not a full arms embargo like on, I don't know, Somalia and Sudan. You don't really, you don't think that Israel could pull off its operation in Rafah, how they plan it, what they want to do, when they want to do it, without - without what - getting more right now from the United States?

COTTON: Well, Kate, first off, the security package that we just passed hasn't really started flowing into Israel yet. What President Biden has done, we now know going back to last year is to deny Israel the very kinds of bombs and precision guided systems that they need to destroy Hamas inside of Rafah. That is the last bastion of Hamas. It's where its leaders are hold up. It's even where - it's presumably many of the hostages are around those leaders.

The reason they need larger bombs with precision guidance systems on them is that Hamas has built this tunnel network underneath Gaza where you have to have larger bombs to get down and penetrate into it.

[08:35:07]

And the fact that President Biden is denying them those bombs, in the middle of this war, and he is apparently even denying them intelligence about the location of Hamas leaders, which again is to say the location of hostages, including potentially American hostages, is just another example of the week, failed presidency that the American people have seen for three and a half years.

BOLDUAN: You served - everyone knows this but just to - for viewers knowledge -- you served in Iraq and Afghanistan. I say that because I had David Petraeus on, who led successful counterinsurgency in Iraq. He was on with me this week, Senator, and he thinks Israel needs to go into Rafah. He said that very clearly. But his assessment is that they need to change strategy before they do. They are, right now, his description is clearing and leaving. And they need to be clearing holding and building, which is what they did in Iraq. He makes the case that the IDF strategy is not working. And this speaks to kind of - a little bit of what we've heard from the White House on this. Do you agree with David Petraeus that IDF strategy is not working right now?

COTTON: Well, ultimately, General Petraeus, as he did during the surge phase of Iraq, is right, that you do have to hold and build, but you have to clear first. You have to destroy and get a military victory. That's what happened when General Petraeus was the commander of the 101st Airborne in March and April of 2003. You have to have a military victory before you can have a political victory.

And I know that President Biden is demanding that Israel have all kinds of elaborate plans for what's going to happen after Hamas is defeated. That's not what we did against the Islamic state when Barack Obama started a war. Didn't finish it. Took Donald Trump to finish it. But we focused on achieving a military victory. And until Hamas' final four battalions hold up inside Rafah are destroyed, until their leaders are captured or killed, I think it's premature to demand Israel start developing all kinds of elaborate plans for the so-called day after. Military victory cannot be forsaken.

BOLDUAN: Let me ask you this. We've seen Republican lawmakers, quite a lot of them, coming to New York City to sit in on Donald Trump's trial, to show their support for him. And CNN also has new reporting that House Oversight, they just pushed back the start time of a markup today so committee Republicans could attend the trial.

And Mitt Romney - I want to play for you what Mitt Romney had to say about all this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): I think it's also demeaning for people to quiet apparently try and run for vice president by donning the red tie and standing outside the courthouse. That - it's just a - I'd have felt awkward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Your name is out there as a possible running mate. I know that you have said that you're not focused on that at all. But do you think it's important for anyone who wants to be VP to have to show up to this trial? I mean do you think anyone - do you think someone can get the job without it?

COTTON: Well, Kate, I turned in my law license 20 years ago and I haven't seen the inside of a courtroom since then, and I don't have any plans to do so in the future.

I agree with what President Trump said. It's important that we do our job as legislators in Washington, for instance, making sure that we overturn Joe Biden's de facto arms embargo and get Israel the weapons it needs. I also think this should be a moot question after today. I know everyone is excited about the cross-examination by President Trump's lawyers of Michael Cohen, a notorious, convicted liar.

But what's of bigger news today is that if the prosecution rests its case based on the evidence they've put forward -

BOLDUAN: Right.

COTTON: Then this judge should - this judge should redeem himself and all the erroneous rulings he's made so far, by directing a verdict of not guilty against Donald Trump, because there's been no evidence of any crime whatsoever in this case, the trial should end today if the prosecution rests its case.

BOLDUAN: Do you think what Mitt Romney said is right, that it's awkward that they - that all these people are standing like with matching outfits to show their support?

COTTON: I'll let other legislators and politicians make decisions about how they want to spend their time and show their support for President Trump and for our great Republican candidates across the country.

I agree with what President Trump said, we need to focus in the congress on passing legislation that will reverse the week, failed policies of Joe Biden.

BOLDUAN: I - we can also refrain from any fashion commentary as well, Senator.

It's great to see you. Thank you so much for your time and coming in today.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we have some breaking news for you into CNN.

Brand new reporting on what we expect Attorney General Merrick Garland to tell Republicans who are preparing to hold him in contempt of Congress for refusing to turn over the audio recordings of special counsel Robert Hur's interviews with President Joe Biden over classified documents.

CNN's Evan Perez is joining us now from the Justice Department.

What can you tell us about this, Evan?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Sara, just this morning the Justice Department is informing Republicans on the House that they - that the president, President Biden, has asserted executive privilege over these recordings. Now, at issue are a couple of different recordings.

[08:40:02]

One, a set of recordings that was done by the FBI in the - during the interview by Rob Hur, the special counsel. That - this was done back in October as part of that investigation, as you pointed out, on classified documents that were found at the former president's - at the - sorry, the president's residences and an office. There's also another set of recordings that were done by a ghost writer who was working with then the former Vice President Biden during - as he was writing a book some years ago. And so what the president has done is asserted executive privilege, which means that the Justice Department cannot turn over these - these recordings to House Republicans who had issued a subpoena, not only for those recordings, but also for other investigative materials that were part of that investigation.

I'll read you just a part of what the Justice Department is telling and the attorney general is telling the House Republicans. They're saying "the committees seek to hold the attorney general in contempt not for failing in his duties, but for upholding them. We have repeatedly made clear that disclosure of the subpoenaed audio recordings would damage future law enforcement efforts and that the committees' continued demands raise serious separation of powers concerns." Look, the fight over these recordings is really a couple of different things. Republicans, obviously, want the president's voice. They - we're in the middle of a political campaign. A presidential campaign. And it's obvious that once they get this, this is going to be part of that campaign. And listening to the president's voice as he's answering questions and as he's talking to his ghostwriter would be part of that. And so that's one of the things that's - that's at play here. Republicans know that - that they won't get this, but that's the reason why they're going to hold, we expect, two different committees are going to hold the attorney general in contempt today, Sara.

SIDNER: Wow.

And you'll remember that when the transcripts came out, this was huge news, talking about Biden's memory -

PEREZ: Right.

SIDNER: And the decision that was made by Hur.

Thank you so much, Evan Perez, for that breaking news.

PEREZ: That's a very key -

SIDNER: Go ahead.

PEREZ: That's very key information right there.

SIDNER: Yes.

PEREZ: No, I'm saying, this is very, very key information that they did turn over the - the transcripts of those interviews. And so that's - they do - the Republicans its already have that, Sara.

SIDNER: Exactly right.

All right, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

All right, a dangerous storm sparked an idea that could change the way coastal homes are built. The idea, by the way, came from a mother who found a new use for a familiar building material. She is today's "Champion for Change." And CNN's chief climate correspondent Bill Weir has her story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: The most powerful storm ever to make landfall on the Florida panhandle.

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: The window to evacuate is closed.

ANNETTE RUBIN, CEO, VERO BUILDING SYSTEMS: I remember watching TV and thinking, if this stays on the same path, we're not going to make it and it's too late to leave.

I'm originally from Seattle, Washington. When I met my husband up there, I was bartending and he was playing professional football for the Seattle Seahawks. We were having our first baby and so we purchased a home on the Gulf Coast right outside of Destin.

We had Ava, my first baby girl. And then Hurricane Michael hit 12 weeks later.

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Hunker down. Stay indoors. Stay away from windows.

RUBIN: The wind code actually where I live is about 115 miles an hour. And Hurricane Michael was well beyond that already. The storm continued to shift and then, unfortunately, hit Mexico City Beach, where it was complete and total devastation and absolutely heartbreaking.

The next morning when I woke up, there was a fire in me that this isn't right. I can't live from June to October every single year hoping that a storm does not come and kill me and my - my kids.

WEIR: And so driven purely by desire to protect her own family, Annette Rubin became an accidental pioneer in the field of disaster proof construction.

You had no experience in construction or business of this sort at all.

RUBIN: No. I went down this rabbit hole of, how do we build a fortified structure.

WEIR: In her new quest to find a really strong building material, someone at Annette's church brought up Emmeoue, or M2. It's a 40-year- old Italian company created by an engineer who discovered a really easy to construct method to build a home that could stand up to an earthquake.

Basically came up with a Styrofoam and steel mesh sandwich on concrete bread. First you make these panels any shape you want, round, straight. It could be a roof. It could be stairs. It could be a park bench. It could be an airport. And then it is covered with sprayable concrete.

RUBIN: That's SCIP, structural concrete inflated panel, creating one monolithic structure.

ALEXIS BOGOMOINI, CEO, ABH DEVELOPER GROUP: What these panels have that's great is that they're way more waterproof than a traditional construction material. So, if you see that building over there, the roof is not even finished, it's not even waterproof, and it just rained like three days in a row and not one droplet got into the second floor.

RUBIN: So, this is the mesh machine up here. And we can do varying lengths and widths and all that.

[08:45:01]

WEIR: Did you ever imagine, when you were moving across the country, that you'd be doing this?

RUBIN: No, definitely not.

We have a 250 mile an hour wind rating.

WEIR: Two hundred and fifty?

RUBIN: Yes. Which there actually has never been a hurricane that fast before.

WEIR: Right. That would be a category nine or something, but, yes.

RUBIN: Yes. Yes, there's never been a hurricane that fast before.

WEIR: As a climate reporter/dad, I tend to measure global trends against the lifetime of my kids. And just in the four years since my little boy River was born, there have been over 80 separate billion- dollar disasters just in the U.S. As the planet overheats under a blanket of fossil fuel pollution, it is clear the way we think about shelter has to evolve.

RUBIN: We have these huge catastrophic like events and they rebuild everything the exact same way. In my mind, that's the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for different results. Our goal is to give 10 percent of all of our profits to disaster relief, donating homes to people who lose them and hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, you know, any kind of natural disaster. And they're getting worse.

I think people are hungry for something different. And I think, as a construction community, there's - there's enough people coming up in the next generation that really want to learn these new innovative things.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: What an incredible mom. She had no construction experience.

WEIR: Exactly.

SIDNER: She's now figured this out. Two hundred and fifty mile an hour winds it can withstand.

WEIR: Right.

SIDNER: And waterproof. It's what you need for hurricanes.

WEIR: And it is incredibly well insulated. So, much easier to heat and cool. Much more efficient.

SIDNER: (INAUDIBLE).

WEIR: Her company's called Vero Building Systems. That stands for - it's Italian for truth. The cost depends on where you live in the country. If you're in a place like Florida or California with a lot of swimming pool contractors who know how to use Shotcrete or Gunite, basically sprayable stone, it could be 5 percent more than a stick frame wood construction. Maybe ten or 15 percent more elsewhere.

But you don't have to put shingles on the roof. You could stamp the outside and paint it white like a Joanna Gaines farmhouse. You can do so much with this idea.

But I was just so inspired by this - this Mom turning her anxiety into action to save other moms from the same anxiety. And so, it's a new company. I'm rooting for them.

SIDNER: How's she doing?

WEIR: It's brand new. She's got some projects going, cooking up. But when you're trying to disrupt the building industry -

SIDNER: Yes.

WEIR: A lot of people know how to do one thing and they may be resistant to change. But the contractors who are on the leading edge of this -

SIDNER: Yes.

WEIR: You know, fortunes are to be made for building for this new earth we live on.

SIDNER: And we've talked about this a lot. People keep rebuilding the homes right in the areas that keep getting slammed.

WEIR: Yes.

SIDNER: So, if this saves lives and saves the structure, this could be a great thing.

WEIR: Absolutely.

SIDNER: Bill Weir, always with the great stories. And be sure to tune in Saturday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern for CNN's "Champion for Change," the one-hour special.

John.

BERMAN: All right, we've got new reporting on what Donald Trump's lawyers want to get out of Michael Cohen when he is back on the witness stand in just a few minutes.

Also, just in, Israel says additional forces are being sent to Rafah in southern Gaza as the Israeli defense minister says the operation will intensify.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:52:33]

SIDNER: We have some breaking news for you this morning.

Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says additional forces will participate in the ground operation in Rafah. The question is, are they inching towards a full-scale attack? This as officials say the floating pier built to allow critical aid into Gaza is almost completed. It's now anchored to a beach in Gaza.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond joins us now from Jerusalem.

Jeremy, first, what are you learning about these troops, additional troops, that are going to be headed into - into Rafah?

We clearly are not being able to hear his (INAUDIBLE) -

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, the Israeli defense minister, Yoav Gallant, just completed a visit to eastern Rafah where Israeli troops have been operating for the last week and a half. And while he was there, he said that Israeli troops are going to enter Rafah carrying - additional troops will enter Rafah, adding to the troops that have already been there over the course of the last week. The defense minister said that commando - a commando brigade has already entered Rafah overnight and will assist in what the Israeli troops that are already there have been doing over the course of the last week, which they say is destroying Hamas infrastructure, searching and destroying tunnels, for example, that exists in that area.

We know, of course, that the Israeli military operation in eastern Rafah has already caused significant disruption to the civilian population there. More than half a million Palestinians have now been forced to flee Rafah, being displaced to areas further north in the Gaza Strip.

We also know that the Israeli military's intensifying its operations in northern Gaza, in the Jabalya refugee camp, which was the site of so much of the heavy fighting in the early months of the war. Israeli troops then withdrew from that area and now months later they are going back in because they say that Hamas has once again re-installed itself there, re-entering those areas. And intense fighting has been happening over the course of the last several days in Jabalya.

Meanwhile, the United States announcing today that it has completed the process of building and now anchor that floating pier off the coast of Gaza. This could bring in as many as 150 aid trucks per day. It's expected to begin - to be operational in the coming days. Obviously providing much needed relief to the Gaza strip at a time when so many are once again being displaced inside the strip and also as that rough a border crossing between Gaza and Egypt remains closed for the second week now.

[08:55:09]

We know that there are ongoing negotiations between Egyptian and Israeli officials to try and reopen that crossing. So far, no indication of a breakthrough, but a lot of blame being cast on both sides.

Sara.

SIDNER: Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much for that breaking news there from their Jerusalem bureau on what is happening in Gaza.

John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now is Congressman Seth Molten from the commonwealth of Massachusetts, a member of the House Armed Services Committee.

Congressman, last week you tweeted, I've always said that Israel must defeat Hamas. The question is whether invading Rafah ultimately helps or hurts the cause. After meeting with the Israeli ambassador today for an hour, I'm even more skeptical of their plan. You said, I support President Biden's decision. At that point you were talking about his decision not to provide certain offensive weapons if Israel went into Rafah.

We're getting the news that Israel is increasing its troop presence on the ground there. Can you tell us what you disapprove of that you learned of Israels' plans?

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): Well, look, they just don't have answers to basic questions that you need to know - have answers to if you're fighting a counterinsurgency. Like what is the end game? How do they plan to prevent civilian casualties? What is the humanitarian aid plan? So that you - you're actually winning the support of the population and not just pushing them further into the arms of the terrorists. They didn't have answers to these things. They didn't have answers to a basic question, which is, if indeed Hamas is harboring its - its leaders and the hostages in - in the tunnels under Rafah, how are you going to save the hostages when you go in and try to take out Hamas' leaders?

So, it really seems to me that they need to go back to the fundamentals of a counterinsurgency plan. I think - I wrote an op-ed on CNN just off of - just after October 7th saying, you guys have got to get this right if you want to win, and they still don't seem to have a winning plan.

BERMAN: Look, you were heavily involved with counterinsurgency as a Marine in Iraq. So, this is something you have intimate knowledge of.

When you see Israel increasing its troop presence around Rafah, what do you think might be happening?

MOULTON: Well, I think they're planning to just do a full-scale invasion, the same way that they have carried out this assault on the rest of Gaza. And we already see in the north a part of Gaza that's been practically obliterated by Israeli bombs that it hasn't been effective at defeating Hamas. Hamas is now researched in the north. They have continuing problems. Fighting is getting intense there again. That just confirms that Israel's strategy to date is not working.

And, look, I say this with Iraq experience, having made a lot of mistakes in Iraq. When we first went into Iraq and Afghanistan, we thought we could just kill terrorists and that would be enough. It took us a while to learn that the key in a counterinsurgency campaign is not just killing terrorists, although you do have to do that, it's winning the support of the population. That's why limiting civilian casualties is so important, providing humanitarian aid and having a political end game that both sides can believe. Israel still hasn't explained that to the world.

BERMAN: I what to ask you about how Speaker Mike Johnson, because as were one of many Democrats who basically voted to help him keep his job as speaker. And that was seen largely because he did allow aid to Ukraine to go through. Since that vote were Democrats saved him, he has shown up at the criminal trial of Donald Trump here in New York, and then a lot of other things that Democrats aren't happy about. Would you vote to save him again?

MOULTON: No, not unless he has, you know, some deal on the table, like putting a vote on important aid for Ukraine. You know, he's one of the most conservative speakers in American history. We're not doing any - him any favors here. But it was the right thing to keep him in power so that we could get this aid package through and show them that if you - and show him, frankly, that if you do the right thing, Democrats will be there to ensure good governance.

It's Republicans who want to throw the House into chaos yet again. We had three weeks without a speaker last fall. That's the first time in American history that's ever happened. That's because of the extremists Republicans who are essentially running the party right now.

BERMAN: I want to ask you a question that has sort of taken over the culture over the last 24 hours. I figure you're a Patriots' fan, but this has to do with Kansas City Chiefs placekicker Harrison Butker, who gave a commencement speech. You've talked a lot about commencements over the last several weeks around the country. He gave a commencement speech at a catholic university in Kansas, and he made some statements that raised some eyebrows.

Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRISON BUTKER, KANSAS CITY CHIEFS KICKER: Bad policies and poor leadership have negatively impacted major life issues. Things like abortion, IVF, surrogacy, euthanasia, as well as a growing support for degenerate cultural values in media all stem from the pervasiveness of disorder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, pervasiveness of disorder, degenerate cultural values, wrapping in IVF and surrogacy there. What do you think?

[09:00:01]

MOULTON: I don't know exactly what he's saying, but he basically seems to want to go back 100 years in American progress.