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Now: Lawyers In Trump Trial Hold Meeting On Jury Instructions; 1 Dead, 70 Plus Hurt After Severe Turbulence Hits Singapore Airlines Jet; Both Sides Rest Cases Without Trump Testifying; Judge & Attorneys Work On Jury Instructions. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 21, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:54]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Right now, the judge and attorneys in former President Donald Trump's hush money trial are working through some critical issues, how the judge will instruct the jury to apply the law while they deliberate.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Closing arguments now set to begin next Tuesday after the defense rested its case earlier today without calling Trump to the stand. CNN National Correspondent Brynn Gingras is joining us now. She's outside the courtroom.

Brynn, what's the latest?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, guys. We've had some very intense, dramatic testimony over the last five and a half weeks or so. This is a little bit more dry and dense, and this is without the jury. This is where both sides, the prosecution and the defense, can basically negotiate the wording details with the judge about how those jury instructions are going to sound when the judge actually gives them to the jury next week after closing arguments.

It's a critical part of this entire process. It does take time. But again, it is very dense, really steeped in the legalities. But it serves really as a roadmap for jurors when they go back and deliberate to sort of have a way to interpret the law and apply it to all of that testimony that they have been hearing over this entire trial, so it's extremely important. So that's what's happening right now.

We do fully expect that to wrap up by the end of today. And then there is no court for the rest of the week. In fact, the judge told jurors earlier today after the defense rested that they don't need to come back, like you guys said, until next week on Tuesday, the day after Memorial Day, when they are going to begin hearing closing arguments. That could bleed into Wednesday. But the judge fully expects and wants the jury to return to court on what is usually a dark day here at the trial to continue their deliberations.

And, of course, then we all wait to see what the verdict is on these 34 counts or charges rather, against the former president in the historic trial. Guys? SANCHEZ: Brynn Gingras live from outside the courthouse in New York. Thanks so much.

Let's discuss more now with our legal experts, Elie Honig and Elliot Williams join us once more.

Elliot, let's start with getting into the weeds about some of the language that the judge is going to have to decide on. There's a dispute that came up in the last few moments where the defense wants a sentence in the jury instructions to read that the former president allegedly participated in a crime - crime singular. The prosecution wants participated in and was convicted of two crimes - crimes plural.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think they're talking about Michael Cohen.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Michael Cohen.

SANCHEZ: Oh, forgive me, Michael Cohen.

HONIG: Yes.

SANCHEZ: Walk us through the significance of that.

WILLIAMS: And that's very significant. This is the kind of thing that is at the heart of jury instructions and what parties are going back and forth about. Now, the question is, do you identify the number of crimes that he has convictions for. Do you just say, broadly speaking, he has a criminal record or do you just say crimes generically. And each of those has pitfalls in either direction, including, you know, if it's - if the judge really just makes a huge error here, it could have problems on appeal, right. You can really mess up the whole case.

Now, I think the concern is if the judge doesn't properly and fairly characterize this witness' criminal history, it may be - it may put a thumb on the scale in either direction and so they're debating it. I believe they ultimately ended up on crimes, plural. But you're going to see much more of this over the course of the day. It's bickering about plurals, shall versus may, and so on, and stuff that makes people's eyes glaze over, but are legally so important.

HONIG: Speaking of - just following the ...

DEAN: Yes.

HONIG: ... updates here, they're having a discussion right now about what does it mean to cause someone to make false entries, false business documents and now apparently the defense is objecting to prosecutors' language, saying it would be causing the causer ...

DEAN: Causing the causer.

HONIG: ... causing the causer to do something. So, you know, what - it's like, what is the meaning of is - what does it mean to cause. But you will see judges use sort of long strings of synonyms. It means to cause, make, compel, encourage, blah, blah, blah, aid and, you know, that kind of thing.

[15:05:01]

But it - we are past the sort of most contentious part of this, which had to do with how much depth is the judge going to go into on the nuances of campaign finance law.

Generally speaking, Trump's team, the defense, wanted to make it sound like this big, confusing, messy area, which it is. And the prosecution team wanted to sort of streamline it. My sense generally from our updates here is that the judge, as he's done sort of throughout this trial, is trying to find a middle path.

DEAN: Right. And just to zoom out for everyone watching for a second, Elie, the importance of all this stuff that we're talking about that can be a little dry, a little crunchy.

HONIG: Yes.

DEAN: But this - the - how this case is going to play out, these instructions that this jury gets are very important.

HONIG: This is it. This is the gospel that the jury will be given.

DEAN: Right.

HONIG: Whatever the judge tells them is how they will conduct their deliberations. And what happens a lot, as we talked about in the segment earlier last hour with the jury consultant, New York state is unusual and that the judge is going to read this 50-, 60-, whatever it is, page instruction to the jury. A lot of judges send it back.

So the jurors can go, oh, I think page 34 is what he told us about this ...

DEAN: I flipped through this, yes.

HONIG: ... let's read it together.

In New York state, judges do not send the written instruction back. Now, how are they supposed to remember all this? It's impossible. But what they can do, the jury, is come out in the middle of deliberations, send a note saying, we would like to hear again the instruction on reasonable doubt. We would like to hear again the instruction on causing the causer or whatever.

But this is it. This is what will guide them and lead them towards their verdict or, you know, if they don't reach a verdict. But this is it.

WILLIAMS: And ...

HONIG: Yes, this is the rules.

WILLIAMS: ... what you'll find is that every time the jury has a question on something like we want to hear this instruction again, the judge will call both sides back, the attorneys for both sides and debate: Should I read it? Should I provide it to them? I mean, you can't do that in the state of New York. Do I provide them a sheet of paper? Do I just say no? Do I give them some other instruction? And that comes up all the time.

And it also provides the parties and, frankly, folks like us an opportunity to read between the lines and try to divine, well, what's the jury thinking right now? What do they have questions on?

HONIG: Next week's going to be a lot of tea leaf reading ...

WILLIAMS: Yes.

HONIG: ... by all of us. What does that mean? Is that good? Is that bad?

DEAN: (INAUDIBLE), yes.

SANCHEZ: A convoluted process, to say the least ...

HONIG: Yes.

SANCHEZ: ... confusing ...

HONIG: But important.

SANCHEZ: ... but we appreciate having you guys here to walk us through it. Thank you both so much, Elie and Elliot.

So let's go to CNN's Alayna Treene now, because she's focused on the Trump team's reaction now that both sides have rested their case.

You also have some interesting news, Alayna. What are you hearing?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: That's right. Well, my colleague, Kristen Holmes and I are told that, overall, when they're looking forward to this, you know, whatever the verdict may be and whenever it may come, we're told that the former president is preparing for a potential conviction, at least on some of the counts. And that's largely because Donald Trump personally believes that the jury is biased. He has long believed, even before the trial began, that he could not get a fair trial in Manhattan, a mostly Democratic city. And so he's preparing for that potential option.

Now, I'm also told that some of his attorneys are still considering, you know, maybe this could be a hung jury. Of course, this is all speculation. But as for the former president, he is preparing for that potential outcome. Now, I also just want to speak about the overall performance of his defense team.

So we've been told that Donald Trump has been actually pretty pleased with Todd Blanche, his lead defense attorney in this, especially when it comes to his cross-examination of Michael Cohen.

And, again, I think we have to point out that Donald Trump is a very tough client. He expects his lawyers to be very aggressive, to be bulldogs in the courtroom. And from our conversations with Donald Trump's campaign and his team, they believe that the former president thinks that Blanche was effective in that. And there's two instances that they point to: One is when Blanche tried to undermine Michael Cohen's credibility when he pointed out that 90-second phone call that he had, that he brought up the Stormy Daniels payment.

Blanche had said this was a call with Keith Schiller, Donald Trump's then-body man, and he actually brought up prank phone calls from a 14- year-old. And that was something that Donald Trump was very pleased with, we're told.

The other thing that they point to is the moment when Blanche got Michael Cohen to admit that he had stolen from the Trump campaign. We are told that that was really a very clear moment that, in Donald Trump's view, shows that Michael Cohen was lying.

Now, I also want to address Robert Costello's testimony. Now, obviously, he kind of exploded on the stand or deploded, I should say. But that came together because Donald Trump had really liked Costello's testimony before Congress. And what he wanted Costello to do on the stand was to say, in very clear terms, that Michael Cohen is a liar. And that's exactly what Costello did.

Now, of course, he did some other things, as well, and it's still very unclear whether or not Donald Trump's team believes that that was actually helpful to the defense or whether that was damaging to them. But that was something that Donald Trump had really pushed for.

And so I think, overall, it's unclear where this is heading. His team knows that, obviously. They're not sure of what the outcome will be. But again, Donald Trump is preparing for a potential conviction in this case.

SANCHEZ: Alayna Treene, some fascinating reporting there. Thank you so much.

[15:10:05]

We're staying on top of the trial and this meeting. Of course, we're going to bring you any new developments as they happen. There's still plenty more to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, including some terrifying moments on a Singapore Airlines' flight from London. After the plane hit severe turbulence, at least one person was killed, dozens more hurt. We have details straight ahead.

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[15:14:48]

DEAN: Singapore Airlines says one person is dead and six others critically injured after one of their flights hit severe turbulence. That plane was en route from London to Singapore when this all happened and then made an emergency landing in Bangkok, Thailand.

[15:15:05] SANCHEZ: With us now, CNN's Richard Quest and CNN's Gabe Cohen. Gabe, it can't be overstated how severe this turbulence was, albeit very rare. It apparently led to the death of one person and dozens of others injured.

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's tragic. We know that a 73- year-old British man died from injuries or we don't know the cause at this point, but from something related to the turbulence. We know he had a heart condition, but at this point we're waiting to find out what the cause of death was.

But as you said, 71 other people injured, including at least one American. Six of those people are in critical condition, according to the hospital where they were taken. It was a violent scene, an emotional scene, and you can see some of the images that show the aftermath, the significant damage inside the cabin of the plane. Parts of the ceiling, luggage compartments collapsed. There were objects thrown about during the incident, and now we are just starting to learn more about how those people are doing. But again, one person did die.

DEAN: Yes. And Richard, you're an aviation expert. This kind of turbulence is rare, this extreme turbulence like this, but it does seem, just to me, the casual - all of us, the casual kind of observers, we're hearing about it more often. Is that true?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Well, yes, and there is more of it in a sense, because climate change is doing that. To the point that Gabe was saying, if you - you don't need to look at the numbers in too much detail, but the yellow line shows me basically how the plane moved. The red line shows me the ferocity and velocity. In other words, the vertical rate of ascent or descent.

So you've got the plane which is coming along, and then it enters this storm, and it starts moving around like this. Now, the actual altitude changes are not massive. They're 200 or 300 feet in either direction. Goes up a hundred, down 50, up 75, down 200, up - but it is doing so at a vertical rate of ascent and descent in the hundreds.

So the dramatic movements that cause this, it's going up at a rate of 800, it's coming down at a rate of a thousand. It's going up at a rate of 100 - and that is why this was so dangerous and so difficult. It wasn't the plane dropped 6,000 or anything like that. It was the fact that in these storms, there are weather patterns that push the airframe in different directions, and those forces hit the passengers, particularly, of course, if they're not strapped in.

DEAN: Right, if they don't have those seatbelts on.

And, Gabe, what's Singapore Airlines saying about all of this?

COHEN: Well, we've just learned that the airline now has a team that's arrived in Bangkok to assist their crews that are still there, as well as the local authorities. They've also put out this statement offering their deepest condolences to the family of the deceased, that 73-year- old British man, saying, we deeply apologize for the traumatic experience that our passengers and crew members suffered on this flight.

SANCHEZ: Richard, is there much that pilots can do to avoid or get out of situations like this?

QUEST: Yes, and they're doing it every minute of every day, and that's why we don't have more of these incidents. Number one, they have - they fly - their airline will give them a meteorological map of where they're going, so they plan ahead. The airline knows what the weather's going to be down route.

Number two, on-board radar. They can see the weather patterns ahead of them.

Number three, air traffic control will tell them.

And number four, the plane in front will give a ride report. We've got turbulence at flight level 3-3-0, in which case the pilot will request a different area. But in this part of the world, in South-East Asia, at this time of the year, there are massive storms that are very hard to go around, and there are cloud formations you can't go over.

Think of it this way, landing in the summer at Washington-Reagan or Atlanta-Hartsfield, the weather, the summer storms, they will create thermal movements and the plane will bounce around as it's coming into land. What happened here was on a much grander scale as it hit this storm in Southeast Asia.

SANCHEZ: We're fortunate that it is a rare occurrence, but it's unsettling to hear that it's happening more frequently.

QUEST: Well, if they would have gone round it. I mean, if they do - if they'd have known more about it, they would have obviously gone round it or strapped everybody in much more tightly.

SANCHEZ: Right.

DEAN: Mm-hmm.

SANCHEZ: Richard Quest, Gabe Cohen, thank you both so much.

So right now in a courtroom in New York, Judge Juan Merchan is working on jury instructions in Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial after the defense and prosecution rested their cases. In just moments, we're going to speak to a former Trump attorney about all of this.

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[15:24:31]

SANCHEZ: We are continuing to follow new developments in the criminal hush money trial of former President Donald Trump. And right now, prosecutors and Trump's defense attorneys are meeting with Judge Juan Merchan to work on jury instructions, which will set key guidelines for the juror as they deliberate a verdict.

The defense rested its case earlier today after calling just two witnesses, neither were the former president. And now closing arguments are scheduled to begin next Tuesday. We're joined by Michael van der Veen. He's a former attorney for the former president who represented him during his second impeachment trial.

[15:25:06]

Michael, it's great to have you here with us.

Just, first, kind of your thoughts on how the former president likes to guide his attorneys, how involved he typically is, you know. We had that reporting from our colleague Alayna Treene kind of talking about the former president's thoughts on Costello's testimony. How involved does he like to be?

MICHAEL VAN DER VEEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: He likes to be very involved. He keeps up to date not only on the news, but in constant contact with his lawyers. The last case that I tried for one of his companies, I talked to him every morning. I talked to him every night. We would talk a couple times a day. He's a very, very intelligent guy. So he wants to know details. He wants to make his own arguments, which, you know, you take with a grain of salt to a certain extent.

Because it's, you know, it's tough to bring in the defendant or the owner of a company that is the defendant and, you know, try to look at it abstractly rather than getting really personal about it.

DEAN: Right, feeling emotional.

VAN DER VEEN: Just like anybody.

DEAN: Yes.

VAN DER VEEN: Sure. And so he, you know, he really wants to let you know what his arguments are. He really wants you to know what points he thinks is important. And what's really interesting is - this is back two or three years ago in a case that I did for him. He wants you to know what he wants to know, but he'll listen to you. He'll let you know what's important to him. And what's important to him is not just the legal case, but it's politics as well.

And so - and it's really the first time I've ever had a client where they were equally concerned, if not more concerned, with their political future rather than the underlying case itself.

DEAN: We've talked about that a lot and how he really is trying this in the court of opinion outside of the courtroom. But for him, as the Republican - the likely Republican nominee that he - there's so much politically that's at stake.

VAN DER VEEN: Sure. What else is he going to do?

DEAN: Right.

VAN DER VEEN: You know, you're limited in the time now that you can campaign. You're limited in the things that you can say while you're not in the courtroom. And so I think he's basically taking the best that he can in a bad situation for him. And, you know, with him, a lot of things that don't look good turnout okay. So, you know, I think he's probably hopeful that he wins this and just rides into the White House.

DEAN: And they have five or six days before they're back in court. Is it hard - do you think it'll be hard for him to keep his - he's maintained the gag order since he's been told he could go to jail if he kept violating it.

VAN DER VEEN: Sure.

DEAN: We've seen moments where he's gotten very frustrated at people as they're testifying. Do you think he has - he can sustain that through the next several days?

VAN DER VEEN: Yes, I think he can sustain that through the next several days. What I don't understand is there's just this long delay. They should have closed today. They should have been doing jury instructions over this past weekend and they should deliberated Thursday and Friday. He probably would have had a verdict before the week is out.

So I'm interested in the reasoning to delay the trial but certainly it gives him time to slip up and I don't think he will, but just that amount of time - I don't think it's going to be terribly good for the prosecution frankly, the delay, because a lot of the prosecution's best case was in the beginning. And you want that with a jury. You want the jury - some people think the jury makes their mind up really quick and so you want your best stuff forward.

But now you've got these elongated cross-examinations. You've got delays. You've got the day off - days off on Wednesday. Now you've got the holiday weekend. And so all of that good stuff is now four weeks removed from their knowledge base. I know they're taking notes and whatnot, but the primacy and recency, you know, I think that it's probably better for the defense of the delay if at all than for the prosecution.

DEAN: All right. Michael van der Veen, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it.

VAN DER VEEN: Thanks for having me.

DEAN: Nice to see you, thanks.

Still to come, why researchers say Trump's unprecedented - oh, hang on one second - trade proposals could cause middle class families at least $1,700 a year. And coming up in the next hour, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu joins Jake Tapper to respond to news that an international criminal court prosecutor said he's seeking a warrant for his arrest. We've got THE LEAD with Jake Tapper live at 4 right here on CNN.

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