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Trump Head to Court Ahead of Jury Deliberations; DOJ Potentially Seeking Combs Indictment; Jury Deliberations are Set to Begin Today. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired May 29, 2024 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JASON OSBORNE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, TRUMP 2016 CAMPAIGN: Center of his political world, right? I mean I think you can't distinguish between the two. And, unfortunately, I think for the folks on the opposite side of Donald Trump in this is that it - this case is so confusing, they don't really understand - I think the general public don't really understand what is going on in the courthouse. So, what they're listening to is the continued rants by Donald Trump that this is election interference, that this is just the liberals coming after him and trying to stop him from becoming president again.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And, Maria Cardona, to that end, Jason saying that wherever Donald Trump goes is the center of the universe right now, does that explain why we saw Robert de Niro here on behalf of the Biden campaign yesterday?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think what you saw yesterday is the Biden campaign and one of their surrogates going to where the cameras are because that is, frankly, a smart strategy. And I think what the campaign is doing is not really anything different than what they did on the day that President Biden announced for reelection, which is the contrast between what he has done for the country and what he will continue to do for the country, focused on economic growth, protecting our rights and freedoms, protecting our democracy, versus Donald Trump, who showed us what he wants to do if he is elected again. January 6th was just a trial run. And so the contrast between someone who wants to protect our democracy and our Constitution, and Donald Trump, who wants to destroy it, this - the place where you are now, John, I think is a perfect backdrop for that because it is all about our judicial system, our institutions, our democratic institutions, and how one candidate wants to preserve them and strengthen them and one candidate wants to destroy them.

BERMAN: Jason, we're minutes away, potentially, from hearing from Donald Trump before he walks into that courtroom when the judge will give the jury jury instructions. What do you expect him to say? I should maybe ask, what would you think would help him in a political campaign at this moment?

OSBORNE: Well, I mean, look, any time Donald Trump gets up to speak, and particularly every time that I've seen the clips of him speaking before he goes into the courthouse, it's the same rhetoric that he gives, which that - that isn't a mistake on his part. I don't know if necessarily there are things that I would much rather him say that speak to how he's going to help this country move forward as opposed to the continued rants about this being a, you know, political or election interference trial.

I think it's, you know, as he heads into this case - into this, I guess, the jury decision, I have to assume that he's a little bit nervous, right? I think that he's, quite frankly, biding on the hope that there is one juror that's going to stick up for him. But again, as you watch, it's kind of hard for all of us outside without having been in the courthouse from day one to see what's actually happening. I think it's going to be hard for him to kind of walk out of there without some sort of maybe some vindication for a few of the charges, but some of the other ones, you know, not so.

But it all plays into his argument. And I think his argument is, unfortunately in some cases, resonating with the base for one and then, two, those folks that he needs to come back over to his side from the Biden campaign in 2020.

BERMAN: And, Maria Cardona, you have President Biden with the vice president going to Philadelphia today, which is - it's a city that he won I think more than 90 percent of the vote in 2020, in metropolitan Philadelphia, right now. Is this an admission of underperformance to date in this campaign with those voters that he needs, particularly minority voters?

CARDONA: What it is, John, is a super smart strategy of a candidate and a campaign who understands that they cannot take any single vote for granted. They didn't in 2020, and they're not going to do it this time around either.

And look, the focus on black voters is key. As you know, they were part of a - the backbone of what got him elected, him and Kamala Harris elected in 2020, and they will be the backbone of his reelection yet again.

And I think it's important for them to go to Philly, to go to all of these places and suburbs to make the case, not just to black voters, but to the whole coalition that is going to bring together yet again another victory for President Biden.

And I think the messaging in terms of what's going on now with Donald Trump, and what President Biden and Kamala Harris are going to continue to talk about is key because regardless of what happens in this verdict, John, President Biden, and Vice President Harris, are going to continue to make the case that Trump is spectacularly guilty of being unfit for office, guilty of bringing chaos, confusion, corruption to the Oval Office -- he did so for four years, he will so again if he's elected - and guilty of being horrendous for every single community in this country.

[09:35:10]

And that will be something that they will underscore from here until Election Day. BERMAN: Maria Cardona, Jason Osborne, our thanks to both of you.

Again, Donald Trump has left Trump Tower. He will be arriving here in the Manhattan criminal court shortly. Anticipate hearing from him before he goes into that courtroom were very shortly a jury will begin deciding his fate. Deliberation set to begin in the criminal case of Donald Trump. An unprecedented moment in U.S. history.

Stay with us for our special live coverage.

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[09:40:32]

BOLDUAN: A CNN exclusive now. Sources tell CNN federal investigators are preparing to bring accusers of Sean "Diddy" Combs before a federal grand jury. This is seen as a clear sign the Department of Justice could be moving to indict him. Since November, Combs has been named in eight civil lawsuits, seven directly accusing him of sexual assault. His homes, you'll recall, were searched by the FBI in March. And there's a lot more to this.

CNN's Elizabeth Wagmeister has this new reporting and she's joining us now.

Elizabeth, how soon could witnesses be brought before the grand jury and offer this testimony?

ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: This isn't something that we expect to happen immediately. Based on the sources that I have spoken to, they said that while federal investigators are planning to present this to a grand jury, that nobody has been prepped for testimony yet. At this stage, witnesses have been notified that they could potentially be called to testify in front of a federal grand jury in New York City. But that's where this stands.

And right now, Kate, the investigators are still diligently doing their work. They are still calling in people for questioning. They are bringing back some potential witnesses for repeat questioning. I hear from a source that some of these accusers, who have filed lawsuits against Sean "Diddy" Combs, have been called in multiple times.

And we all remember back in March when two of Diddy's homes were raided, both in Miami and in Los Angeles, and they seized a lot of evidence. So, they are combing through all of this.

I have one source telling me that should there be an indictment, that federal agents want to ensure that this is bullet proof. That is the word that they use. So, not something that we expect to happen immediately, but, as you said, this is a clear indication that this investigation is moving along and in a substantial way.

BOLDUAN: And what is next in this investigation that you're picking up, and also for Sean Combs?

WAGMEISTER: You know, there's a lot that could be coming next. Of course this investigation will continue. They will continue to question people before they potentially have them testify in front of a grand jury.

But the other big piece that Sean "Diddy" Combs is facing is these mounting lawsuits. Remember, he is facing eight lawsuits, seven which directly accuse him of sexual assault. And the big question remains, will this domino effect continue? Will there be more accusers that can potentially come forward? We hear that in addition to the accusers who have already filed these sexual assault civil lawsuits, that investigators have brought in additional people. So, that's something we're keeping an eye on.

BOLDUAN: Great reporting, as always. Thank you so much, Elizabeth.

Still for us, move over Babe Ruth, Major League Baseball has some new record holders. We'll take you - we'll bring that to you.

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[09:48:03]

BOLDUAN: All right, breaking news, Donald Trump's motorcade has, as you can see it right here, just arrived at the Manhattan courthouse. I'm just going to listen in for a second to try to hear what - what is being shouted.

(INAUDIBLE).

BOLDUAN: And there you have it, moving on through New York, and he's going to be heading into that courthouse, and we'll see that - what has now become very familiar inside the courthouse shot. And we will see if Donald Trump will be speaking as he is heading into court.

Just on cue. Well done, control room.

And once he gets into the courtroom, Judge Juan Merchan will be giving instructions to the jury in his criminal hush money trial. And after that, the case is in the hands of the jury. And with that is also the fate of the former president and current presidential candidate.

Joining us right now, former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rodgers, criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson, both CNN legal analysts.

So, closing arguments. Let's just set the stage because it's all really about to get underway. Closing arguments lasted a combined, what was it, seven hours, Jennifer?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: A long time.

BOLDUAN: A long time. A long time. Into the evening. But reports from inside the courtroom were that the jurors, they remained attentive, at least for the majority of the time.

How does either side interpret that? Of course you can't do too much with it, but how does either side interpret? And from what you heard in closings yesterday, who do you think - which side was most effective with the time that they had?

ROGERS: Well, I think they are happy and grateful that jurors appeared to be listening, right, because this is the only chance you get to argue to the jury and they don't get to hear it again. Even if they come back and say, we'd like to hear this part of the closing, the judge will say, no, it's not evidenced, they can't hear it once they're back in the jury room. So, if they think that their arguments got through, I'm sure they're happy.

I think that the prosecutors got the better of the closings. You know, their job is not only to make their arguments and try to bat down the defense's arguments, but to marshal the evidence for the jury. They need to prove every element beyond a reasonable doubt and so on.

[09:50:02]

So, they have a - more to do, right? The defense really just has to pick the issues that they think might conjure reasonable doubt for the jury. And I think prosecutors did a better job, more deliberate. I thought Todd Blanche missed some opportunities there and went on a little too long. Bringing up the Stormy Daniels thing again. Why even raise the whole Stormy Daniels credibility issue. That just reminds jurors of that whole, you know, seamy (ph) side of things. And - so I thought prosecutors did it a little bit better, but, you know, who knows?

BOLDUAN: Right. But still, I like to hear it from you. It's better than any interpretation that I have.

When you go into - Joey, word choice, as - like, why bring up Stormy Daniels is one question that Jennifer's raising, but word choice is something that you always wonder and because every word matters, every second matters, every minute or hour, as it - as it turned out when it came to closings. The defense's relentless focus on Michael Cohen continuing through closing arguments I think - John said it and we - and, obviously, it is true if John Berman said it, the defense called Michael Cohen a liar 78 times during closings. Is that the right move? Do you think it was the right move?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, here's what happens.

Kate, good morning.

What ends up happening is that you use what you have, right? The facts are what they are in any case. Just as the prosecution said, we didn't go to the witness store.

BOLDUAN: Right.

JACKSON: And we didn't get Michael Cohen. At the same time, no one goes to the, you know, witness store to create the facts and exhibits. You have the facts as you find them.

And I think one of the critical issues that the defense would have the jury believe, right, is that you cannot convict unless you believe Michael Cohen. Now, whether that's true is an open question. I think prosecutors certainly did a lot to corroborate Michael Cohen with respect to other witnesses who told the same narrative, and with respect to saying, are you serious? Of course you can convict, even if you don't believe Michael Cohen, because there's so much else. And we call that drawing reasonable inferences from the evidence. Sometimes it's not direct evidence, but there's something called circumstantial evidence, and boy is that a plenty, right? So, that's what prosecutors did.

But, ultimately, I think the defense used what was very important, which was to brand this as the Michael Cohen case. He's on trial. And if you can't trust him, you cannot vote to convict. And so they used that, I think, to great effectiveness. How effective it was is ultimately in the hands of the jury.

BOLDUAN: And right before it goes to the hands of the jury, it is the judge's task, always, to give the jury the instructions, which we're told will take about an hour. What are you looking for in these instructions? How important are these instructions?

RODGERS: Well, they're really, really important, right? This is what the jury has to follow. I am looking for a little bit more clarity on how the judge is going to describe the enhancing crime to them, right? So, we know the elements of falsification of business records. And then the judge is going to tell them that if they find that that was done to conceal or to commit another crime, that it gets enhanced to a felony, right?

So, the way that the judge describes that, and then the way that the judge describes what that crime could be is really important. So, we know that he's going to say that there was a federal election crime, that they contributed too much money to the campaign.

The way that the judge describes all of that and how simple it seems to the jury as it comes out of the judges mouth is really, really important because jurors have to understand that and it gets a little bit convoluted as we know -

BOLDUAN: Yes.

RODGERS: Because for weeks now we've been talking about what exactly is the enhancing crime and how does it all work and, you know, so I think that is really the most critical thing I'm listening for.

BOLDUAN: And judge - and the judge, from my experience in covering trials, the judge spends a lot of time trying - making sure this - how the were - how to explain it. How the wording comes across to explain it to the jury.

JACKSON: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Why does it take him an hour?

JACKSON: Because what happens, Kate, is you have to go through the totality of the law, right? Remember the process. The jury is there to decide what is factually accurate and what's factually not. The jury can disregard a testimony outright. They could accept portions of the testimony. So they're the finders of fact. The judge ultimately is the one who is the authority on the law, and that's why you hear, objection, sustained, objection, overruled. They're allowed, right, to say what's admitted, what's not admitted before the jury. And based upon that process, now that you have the facts as the jurors, what do we do with them? And that's where the jury instructions come into play.

What is reasonable doubt, by the way? Let me define it for you. What is direct evidence? Let me tell you what that is. Let me tell you about this thing called circumstantial evidence. And, you know, what does that mean? And so it's very important, Kate, to really hone down on what it is.

And then, of course, right, to Jen's very good point, what is this other crime and how do we apply that should we find there was another crime? And what is falsification? And did Donald Trump have to himself prepare these ledgers or is it enough that he was involved in the preparation, meaning, right, that he aid and abet that in any way. So, all of that stuff is so important and ultimately that's what the jurors are going to have to decide.

[09:55:00]

BOLDUAN: Going into this, what the judge is going to be laying out, are there potential surprises? Are both the defense and the - and prosecutors already - already read in on this? Like what -

RODGERS: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Talk to me about that.

RODGERS: No surprises for them.

BOLDUAN: That's what I (INAUDIBLE). Yes.

RODGERS: They've had the charge since Thursday.

BOLDUAN: Right.

RODGERS: And it is so buy the book. I mean, they will have it printed in front of them. What I used to do, because you're so shy (ph), you're so tired. It's like all you can do is kind of follow along. And so you're literally just kind of watching him read and watching -

BOLDUAN: The adrenaline rush has completely - has passed at this point, right?

RODGERS: The come down has happened. So, yes, everyone is just following along, making sure that they are delivered correctly. Every once in a while a judge will misspeak. You know, he's reading and you say the wrong word or something and then someone will point it out so that he can fix it because it's a huge issue for appeal. If there is a conviction, one of the biggest reasons that convictions get overturned is that the jury instructions are deemed to have been incorrect. So, you really want to take your time with them, make sure they're right, and then make sure they're delivered properly. BOLDUAN: Yes, well, while all of the action and the important action

will be happening as the jurors will be deliberating, just laying out how important just the hour before and what we're going to here in the courtroom is going to be as well.

Guys, stick with me.

Thank you so much for joining us. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL, CNN's special live coverage of Donald Trump's criminal trial and the big moment that the jury will get the case, it begins next.

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